davidylan:


Do you have evidence it has changed? From what to what? Lets discuss...

My DNA is obviously different from yours and similarly this present generation's DNA is different from their parents. And their parents' is different from their grandparents and so and so forth.

thehomer:


You stupid boy. I know enough about codes to be able make appropriate distinctions. You misunderstood what you were trying to present. Your ignorant rambling is a side effect of that foolishness. Take the time to learn some biology. It will do you some good.

You are the foolish one. You are ignorant about genetic codes when you deny, despite a quote to the contrary, that it involves representation. The problem with you is that your bias prevents a proper judgement of the facts and your arrogance prevents you from admitting a mistake.

Kay17:


@ the bolded, you keep missing the point, which is the cause/source of consciousness being material not that consciousness itself is material. If the brain is the source of the consciousness and we can provide that 'messing around with the brain' alters consciousness therefore we have indications that the brain being a material entity is the source of consciousness.

'Who designed the designer' is important because the general principle upon which your argument is built is that complexities by themselves necessarily indicate a prior cause. So if the designer himself is found to be sort form of complexity like intelligence, then you are bound by your general principle. If you find it convenient to jettison the general principle at this stage, we can as well jettison it at any stage.

I didn't miss any point. undercat denied my statement that consciousness is immaterial. I agree the brain is the source of consciousness but I don't believe the brain alone explains it.

You are also being unreasonable in your judgement of the designer argument. No one conveniently excludes God. I have already stated that the illogicality of an infinite regress necessitates an uncaused cause, it makes nonsense of the idea that there must be a designer's designer infinitely.
Furthermore, God is not physical like the complex things we are considering and thus cannot be held to such a standard.

Antiparticle:
Correlation does not imply causality -- this notion is vital and fundamental to science. The economic success of Europe/US/Canada may be correlated with Christianity but this does not mean that Christianity is the cause of said success.

This also applies to so-called atheistic countries. The economic success of such countries isn't caused by atheism, it only correlates with atheism.

UyiIredia:


I have already stated that the illogicality of an infinite regress necessitates an uncaused cause, it makes nonsense of the idea that there must be a designer's designer infinitely.

Oh migosh!

" Illogicality of infinite regress NECESSITATES an Uncaused cause ".

In other words, You are here confessing that the connundrum of infinite regress Prompts you to Pull the uncaused cause CRAP right out of your A-ss?
We hear You loud and clear.

And god is non-physical? And You know that for sure?
Do you mind telling what template upon which It designed and created the physical, as well as how It interfaces with the physical.

Yes, totally agreed. Religion (or atheism), in and of itself, has little to do with economic success.

The problem with religion arises when a society elevates all its truth claims to the level of fact. This often gives rise to persecution, tyranny, suppression of free speech, and so forth. Europe's economic and scientific advancement blossomed once people began to feel free to think outside the box of the then traditional Christianity.

Nigeria will continue to lag economically and scientifically if the intellectual laziness of ascribing calamities or triumphs to spirit entities continues uninhibited.

UyiIredia:


This also applies to so-called atheistic countries. The economic success of such countries isn't caused by atheism, it only correlates with atheism.

Antiparticle:


The problem with religion arises when a society elevates all its truth claims to the level of fact. This often gives rise to persecution, tyranny, suppression of free speech, and so forth. Europe's economic and scientific advancement blossomed once people began to feel free to think outside the box of the then traditional Christianity.

This is debatable. The Renaissance period during which the arts and science flourished again occurred within the said box. The facts are that some technological and scientific advancements were opposed by Christians but that doesn't mean Christianity boxed in science since many scientists then were ardent Christians, some even clerics.

Antiparticle:
Nigeria will continue lag economically and scientifically if the intellectual laziness of ascribing calamities or triumphs to spirit entities continues uninhibited.

Wrong. In fact, there was some level of economic and scientific progress in the 70's. The problem is a political one not a religious one.

UyiIredia:


This is debatable. The Renaissance period during which the arts and science flourished again occurred within the said box. The facts are that some technological and scientific advancements were opposed by Christians but that doesn't mean Christianity boxed in science since many scientists then were ardent Christians, some even clerics.

It is not debatable. This is historical fact. Many critics of Christianity (including Christian scientists whose scientific opinion did not line up with the papacy) were imprisoned or burned at the stake. Do you want examples? That some scientists were Christian does not negate the actions of the Catholic church at the time.

UyiIredia:

Wrong. In fact, there was some level of economic and scientific progress in the 70's. The problem is a political one not a religious one.

Please expound on why you don't agree. Many rational Christians would agree with my position. Hastily ascribing calamities and triumphs to spiritual forces influences one's willingness to evaluate problems critically and rationally; do you disagree with this statement?

Also, you claim the problem is exclusively a political one. Are you so sure about that? Religion doesn't play a role in Nigerians praying away for divine favour instead of putting their absolute best foot forward all the time? Note that I am not saying religion is always bad, but you seem to be assuming this about me and are thus too quick to disagree without carefully evaluating my comments.

Antiparticle:


It is not debatable. This is historical fact. Many critics of Christianity (including Christian scientists whose scientific opinion did not line up with the papacy) were imprisoned or burned at the stake. Do you want examples? That some scientists were Christian does not negate the actions of the Catholic church at the time.

The Catholic church wasn't the only church. I'm sure you'd want to bring up examples like Bruno and Galileo, cases in which misconceptions abound.

Antiparticle:
Please expound on why you don't agree. Many rational Christians would agree with my position. Hastily ascribing calamities and triumphs to spiritual forces influences one's willingness to evaluate problems critically; do you disagree with this statement?

Also, you claim the problem is exclusively a political one. Are you so sure about that? Religion doesn't play a role in Nigerians praying away for divine favour instead of putting their absolute best foot forward all the time? Note that I am not saying religion is always bad, but you seem to be assuming this about me and are thus too quick to disagree without carefully evaluating my comments.

My answer to your question is yes. I do not think you argue religion is always bad. But I don't think religious fervor is the cause of Nigeria's problems. Some countries developed whilst being very religious, some struggled while being atheistic.

UyiIredia:


The Catholic church wasn't the only church. I'm sure you'd want to bring up examples like Bruno and Galileo, cases in which misconceptions abound.

I'm glad you agree, albeit indirectly.

UyiIredia:

My answer to your question is yes. I do not think you argue religion is always bad. But I don't think religious fervor is the cause of Nigeria's problems. Some countries developed whilst being very religious, some struggled while being atheistic.

I never said religion is the cause of Nigeria's problems, I think you are talking past my point. Here is what I wrote: "Nigeria will continue to lag economically and scientifically if the intellectual laziness of ascribing calamities or triumphs to spirit entities continues uninhibited."

Since you don't agree with the statement that "Hastily ascribing calamities and triumphs to spiritual forces influences one's willingness to evaluate problems critically", I have to rest my case. I think my point has been made.

Antiparticle:


I'm glad you agree, albeit indirectly.

No, only partially so. I stated that Christians did oppose science attimes. It's easy to ignore the times they didn't.

Antiparticle:
I never said religion is the cause of Nigeria's problems, I think you are talking past my point. Here is what I wrote: "Nigeria will continue to lag economically and scientifically if the intellectual laziness of ascribing calamities or triumphs to spirit entities continues uninhibited."

Thanks for the reminder. I disagree with your prediction. It's a fact that economic and scientific development has occurred whist people still attributed calamities to spirits.

Antiparticle:
Since you don't agree with the statement that "Hastily ascribing calamities and triumphs to spiritual forces influences one's willingness to evaluate problems critically", I have to rest my case. I think my point has been made.

And where did I say I don't agree. As a matter of fact, I totally agree with that statement. I don't agree though, that we should conclude from that that it would make us lag economically and scientifically. Newton believed angels tinker with planets orbits, that didn't stop him from proposing gravity. Arab countries like UAE are exceedingly religious and yet are very prosperous.

UyiIredia:

And where did I say I don't agree. As a matter of fact, I totally agree with that statement. I don't agree though, that we should conclude from that that it would make us lag economically and scientifically. Newton believed angels tinker with planets orbits, that didn't stop him from proposing gravity. Arab countries like UAE are exceedingly religious and yet are very prosperous.

Your "yes" response implied that you disagreed (I asked "do you disagree?" ) . Ok point taken, glad we at least agree on that.

Note that I particularly emphasize superstition (lazily ascribing occurrences to spiritual entities) not just religion. Newton was likely one of the least superstitious people of his time, and this is evident in how he painstakingly strove to understand gravitation and classical mechanics. Superstitious people are quick to dismiss empirical evidence if it doesn't fit into their worldview. I used to be superstitious in some ways as well, but I actively try to dismiss this sort of thinking because I know that it prevents me from truly thinking rationally and freely. Thinking rationally and freely are key ingredients for critical thinking.

A Nigerian society in which superstition and Christian materialism (see: prosperity gospel) are interwoven into Christian life is on a path that will perpetuate our scientific underachievement, even if we had all the money and political stability in the world. I would agree though, that political stability which leads to significant economic advancement may lead more Nigerians to do away with the need for God.

I'm afraid that once superstition and materialism stop being a part of Nigerian Christianity, there may be nothing left. It appears that the most vocal Nigerian Christians go to church to stave off an imagined spiritual enemy that is in the way of their material progress.

This is not to say that Christianity can not in itself be a valuable tool for human expression of hope for justice in the afterlife. Though this is not unique to Christianity.

wiegraf:


ser kettle, seems you've amnesia like the op. seems there's also the usual lack of imagination, as I have a good idea of where you picked up the 'juvenile' association from

note that you'll, as usual as well, tuck your rabid tail between your rabid legs and run too when the bulala comes down.

BTW, I need not know the details of the science to dismiss the silly tripe you've been posting. I could even give you unjustifiable concessions and you'd still sound silly.

seriously though, why in the world do you still remain a scientist when you're looking for supernatural causation? shouldn't you be a pastor instead?

Not sure what your point is... perhaps you're also surprised that Sir Isaac Newton was a christian and scientist too?

Antiparticle:
Correlation does not imply causality -- this notion is vital and fundamental to science. The economic success of Europe/US/Canada may be correlated with Christianity but this does not mean that Christianity is the cause of said success.

The Roman empire and pre-Christ Greek civilizations laid the foundation for European civilization. There are other key factors that are responsible for Europe's success, however one could similarly argue that Europe became successful in spite of Christianity.

Christian popes were for centuries brutal murderous despots, European monarchs arrogated absolute power to themselves in the name of being God's representatives, Christian Europe kidnapped, tortured, and murdered millions of Africans (during trans-Atlantic slave trade approved by the then pope) for the precise purpose of gaining wealth, European monarchs murdered free thinkers who dare questioned "the divine", etc.

by the same token, christianity cannot be attributed as the cause of Africa's backwardness... you cant have it both ways.

thehomer:


Well I have a lot of interest in talking about God. If you have no views here or no longer worship him, simply say so. It looks like you're not interested in having a discussion but would like an interrogation. You'll rather try to hide your questionable God due to his impotence. Since we won't be having a discussion, the evidence I have can be sought out on the internet. Just enter the necessary key words.

Happy reading.

it seems to me that all you've done so far is basically interrogate others on this thread but very reluctant to discuss the basis for your own science. Your post is a classic case of projection.

thehomer:


Do you really think your God is a red herring? Be careful of what you say even in jest. Well I am interested in your God and what you think he is. Please ask away. I know enough not to accept a claim that your God was behind it.



What I'm saying is that DNA did not appear from random chaos. I've said lots of things of substance and would be willing to continue if you were trying to have an honest discussion.



This is a discussion on arguments for God's existence. It looks like you have nothing to contribute with regards to arguments for your God's existence. Let me know when you have arguments.

So what exactly are you saying then? that it appeared from what? If not via random chaos then what?

I never said that.

davidylan:


by the same token, christianity cannot be attributed as the cause of Africa's backwardness... you cant have it both ways.

thehomer:


Whether or not DNA has been created from scratch has no bearing on whether or not it is a natural process. After all, no one has created Neptune or sunlight from scratch. We still don't then say your God did it.

I think the real tragedy is your attempt not to have a constructive discussion instead you're attempting to hide your God from examination. That simply won't work.

You were perfectly happy to engage in a discussion on DNA with others... as long as you knew they had no clue what they were talking about. As soon as i arrived now you want to avoid the science and talk about God all day... befuddling.

Kay17:


I never said the DNA emerged from pure chaos, you made that assumption Nature exists in a pool of chaos. The cause of the life and likewise DNA is unknown. That is the fact available to us, any other thing said is speculation.

i didnt make the assumption... the big bang theory did. You seem confused.

Kay17:


My DNA is obviously different from yours and similarly this present generation's DNA is different from their parents. And their parents' is different from their grandparents and so and so forth.

Actually the difference is a meagre 0.001% or less... infact we share a remarkable 60% of our DNA with a cob of maize... funny. Seems you really dont know what you're talking about.

Antiparticle:
I never said that.

You seem to not be very bright. You said that the superiority of the developed world cannot be attributed to religion... i said by the same token you cannot then claim that religion is the bane of Africa's problems. You cant have it both ways.

Antiparticle:


Note that I particularly emphasize superstition (lazily ascribing occurrences to spiritual entities) not just religion. Newton was likely one of the least superstitious people of his time, and this is evident in how he painstakingly strove to understand gravitation and classical mechanics. Superstitious people are quick to dismiss empirical evidence if it doesn't fit into their worldview. I used to be superstitious in some ways as well, but I actively try to dismiss this sort of thinking because I know that it prevents me from truly thinking rationally and freely. Thinking rationally and freely are key ingredients for critical thinking.

I think you should appreciate that people can be think rationally while holding superstitious beliefs.

Antiparticle:
A Nigerian society in which superstition and Christian materialism (see: prosperity gospel) is interwoven into Christian life is on a path that will perpetuate our scientific underachievement, even if we had all the money and political stability in the world. I would agree though, that political stability which leads to significant economic advancement may lead more Nigerians to do away with the need for God.

I disagree, it could hinder scientific advance to an extent but our scientific underachievement is really a failure of governance and it is reflected in how much of our budget goes into education compared with other areas.

Wow, you didn't have to attack me. I wonder if whichever deity you serve would approve of this attitude.

You implied I was trying to have it both ways. All I did was challenge the correlation-causation mixup.

Please show me where I said religion is the cause of Africa's problems.

davidylan:


You seem to not be very bright. You said that the superiority of the developed world cannot be attributed to religion... i said by the same token you cannot then claim that religion is the bane of Africa's problems. You cant have it both ways.

Antiparticle:
Wow, you didn't have to attack me. I wonder if whichever deity you serve would approve of this attitude.

You implied I was trying to have it both ways. All I did was challenge the correlation-causation mixup.

Please show me where I said religion is the cause of Africa's problems.

I didnt attack you, you're simply playing to the gallery at this point. Please read my post again if you dont understand it.

... and good Lord - please stop the patronizing language. You're not challenging the correlation-causation mixup because no one every made any such "mixup"... it lies solely in your head. What we've said is that all the caterwauling by atheists that religion is responsible for Africa's backward state flies in the face of the fact that the same industrialized nations they worship are not atheist havens either. Infact they were far more religious than we were during their golden age.

malvisguy212:
If you want to relieve your fears about death, you should try to determine if Christianity is true or false. I know of many atheists who are muslims before , this guys does not border them self with Islamic threat concerning their belief.

I already have no fears about my death. I'm satisfied that Christianity is largely based on a myth. Many atheists don't bother themselves with fears of the afterlife.

malvisguy212:

True christian does not fear death, because certainly, they know were they are going after death. If you are a christian yet you fear death, it mean you are NOT sure of your faith.

Are you a Christian? Are you afraid of death?

UyiIredia:


You are the foolish one. You are ignorant about genetic codes when you deny, despite a quote to the contrary, that it involves representation. The problem with you is that your bias prevents a proper judgement of the facts and your arrogance prevents you from admitting a mistake.

You foolish buffoon there are differences between codons, the genetic code table, amino acids and and genes. You're unable to appreciate this fact and that is why you'll always be unable to properly make the argument you're trying to make.

davidylan:


it seems to me that all you've done so far is basically interrogate others on this thread but very reluctant to discuss the basis for your own science. Your post is a classic case of projection.

Please can you post a link on this thread to where I've merely been interrogating others without presenting my views and answering their questions?

davidylan:


So what exactly are you saying then? that it appeared from what? If not via random chaos then what?

I'm happy to answer when you tell me what your God evolved from and why he evolved.

davidylan:


You were perfectly happy to engage in a discussion on DNA with others... as long as you knew they had no clue what they were talking about. As soon as i arrived now you want to avoid the science and talk about God all day... befuddling.

So you agree that Uyi Iredia has no clue of what he is talking about. It's nice that someone else has realized this fact. As I've shown, I'm happy to discuss the science and your God with you. Why do you find it so difficult to admit your belief in your God on an anonymous forum? What are you afraid of?

thehomer:


I already have no fears about my death. I'm satisfied that Christianity is largely based on a myth. Many atheists don't bother themselves with fears of the afterlife.



Are you a Christian? Are you afraid of death?

this is the point I am making here https://www.nairaland.com/2239640/why-fear-death
Christianity is the most discuss religion, as a matter of fact, your comment proved it , you said Christianity is a myth YET you are asking if I am a christian. If you want to relieve your fears about death, you should try to determine if Christianity is true or false.
there are numerous objections to Christianity, especially by atheists. It's as if they know that Christianity is the only religion that seriously challenges their atheism. So, you are going to live in fear and doubt until you deal with the question of whether Christianity is true or not. Visit the atheists' websites. Visit the Christian sites. Get informed and make a rational decision.

Ever since I was an unbeliever, I am afraid of death but since the spirit convict me of my wrong doing, I know longer afraid of death.

malvisguy212:
this is the point I am making here https://www.nairaland.com/2239640/why-fear-death
Christianity is the most discuss religion, as a matter of fact, your comment proved it , you said Christianity is a myth YET you are asking if I am a christian. If you want to relieve your fears about death, you should try to determine if Christianity is true or false.
there are numerous objections to Christianity, especially by atheists. It's as if they know that Christianity is the only religion that seriously challenges their atheism. So, you are going to live in fear and doubt until you deal with the question of whether Christianity is true or not. Visit the atheists' websites. Visit the Christian sites. Get informed and make a rational decision.

Ever since I was an unbeliever, I am afraid of death but since the spirit convict me of my wrong doing, I know longer afraid of death.

I also said Christianity is discussed a lot due to many of its adherents being English speakers. Yes I'm asking if you're a Christian is that surprising? Actually whether or not Christianity or some other religion is challenged depends on the geographical location. Christianity is a myth like many other myths but people still believe it is true. That is why I asked. So, are you a Christian?

I'm well informed and have made the rational decision. I advise you to also visit those sites and make the rational decision.

UyiIredia:


You are also being unreasonable in your judgement of the designer argument. No one conveniently excludes God. I have already stated that the illogicality of an infinite regress necessitates an uncaused cause, it makes nonsense of the idea that there must be a designer's designer infinitely.
Furthermore, God is not physical like the complex things we are considering and thus cannot be held to such a standard.

I will ordinarily accept the illogicality of an infinite regress as a proof against God. Nonetheless, I want you to acknowledge the problem of a complex designer without a cause. If you acknowledge that, then we can move on to the issue whether God being non-physical, can not be complex.