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Re: Three Arguments For God's Existence by Joshthefirst(m): 2:21pm On Jul 08, 2015 |
thehomer:When you see a computer program like microsoft word, you immediately understand and realize that it is a design of a creator. The same thing applies for various processes, events, phenomena and the unity and co-direction of forces we see in the universe, especially DNA. thehomer: Well that isn't actually true. Evolution is a non-directional natural phenomenon.Yes. And as I said, It cannot be the origin(note origin) of efficient, workable and sustainable devices, especially a device like DNA. thehomer: Unfortunate man who is unable to demonstrate the core assumption of ignorant supernaturalism.This is like expecting someone to teach common sense. Forget about "supernaturalism", acknowledge very obvious design first and stop being belligerent and unreasonable in a futile quest to deny transcendence. But you won't. Because you don't want to believe in any thing that might lead to God, you deny order and choose to be hypocritically blind to direction and sense. Look at how you have ended up. Claiming DNA came about through random processes of evolution. You have become the epitome of dogmatism, and unreasonableness. |
Re: Three Arguments For God's Existence by Antiparticle(m): 4:51pm On Jul 08, 2015 |
UyiIredia: The key word is "often", which is what I wrote. I didn't write "always"; you are preaching to the choir. UyiIredia: Yes I agree that the mix of monarchy and extremist Wahabbism have much to do with the level of repression in Saudi Arabia. The Wahabbi part makes my point. Political Islam as well as political Christianity have often led to persecution and repression. One can be religious and admit this. Yes I agree that progress can occur while still superstitious; I didn't say that superstition is a binary attribute. My point is that economic and scientific advancement are impeded in Nigeria partially due to the extent of our society's superstitious tendency. Do you disagree? Yes, Saudi Arabia is economically successful, so what? I did not say scientific progress can not occur in the presence of superstition, I said it slows down (I used different words like "impede", "slows down", "the extent", "lag" etc); I deliberately qualify my statements in order to be nuanced and not absolute, yet you infer absolute meaning from them. This is my problem with davidylan's responses; he seems to read absolutism where there isn't any, so I had to stop feeding the troll. Note that I am not saying that religion is always bad, so don't artificially project this upon my statements. I will assume your misunderstanding is in good faith. UyiIredia: Ok, your conclusion is based on a misread of my position. I didn't say economic and scientific progress are impossible under a superstitious context. I state that the extent of scientific progress is negatively affected by the extent of superstition of said society. |
Re: Three Arguments For God's Existence by UyiIredia(m): 5:27pm On Jul 08, 2015 |
Antiparticle: And I don't agree it is often. The correct word would be 'some times'. To show that it is often, you'll have to show that in most contexts where all religious claims were held true persecution, tyranny resulted because of it. Antiparticle: I don't. But I think the statement is less true of the economy than it is of science. Antiparticle: Agreed with some misgivings. BTW what's your take on the OP ? |
Re: Three Arguments For God's Existence by UyiIredia(m): 6:07pm On Jul 08, 2015 |
wiegraf: The problem with such Christians is that they've bought into the lie that science must assume only nature exists. Science involves a search for truth, assuming only nature exists limits that search. wiegraf: There isn't. If by evolution, you mean a change of allele frequencies then even creationists are evolutionists. If by evolution you mean the development of all life from a common ancestor through mutations and natural selection, then you are brainwashed. The so-called overwhelming evidence for such are based on false assumptions and a wilful ignorance of the facts. wiegraf: I'm willing to furnish you with articles that explain how ID is science. Will you read it ? And be objective about what you've read ? That's the problem. wiegraf: So what if we share DNA with corns ? That doesn't show that we evolved from corns. wiegraf: That has been done unfortunately . . . "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!" - Upton Sinclair wiegraf: State some of this evidence and I will tell you the problem with it. If you promise to read it, I will present an article showing how ID is science and we can discuss it. wiegraf: Indeed you are brainwashed. It's no mystery why you believe in evolutionary fairytales. You actually think God doing it must not be science which is false. |
Re: Three Arguments For God's Existence by Antiparticle(m): 6:28pm On Jul 08, 2015 |
UyiIredia: Ok, fair enough. I see what you mean. "Sometimes" is probably more appropriate. UyiIredia: Agreed. UyiIredia: Per the original post, I will comment on that sometime in the next couple hours (assuming you are asking in good faith ). |
Re: Three Arguments For God's Existence by Antiparticle(m): 8:21pm On Jul 08, 2015 |
In the interest of brevity, this johnydon22 response mirrors my position on your original post. johnydon22: UyiIredia: |
Re: Three Arguments For God's Existence by UyiIredia(m): 8:46pm On Jul 08, 2015 |
Antiparticle: I responded to johnydon22 here. He never responded back. You can. |
Re: Three Arguments For God's Existence by Kay17: 11:49pm On Jul 08, 2015 |
UyiIredia: Perfect! I just wanted you to see my view for a second and I'm glad you did. Of course it is unfair to have a single sided debate. The origins of life are much of speculation and hardly of facts. So I do not sell facts of the Universe or life itself. Neither am I willing to buy such facts. I'm more comfortable drawing the lines. |
Re: Three Arguments For God's Existence by Kay17: 11:54pm On Jul 08, 2015 |
davidylan: Are you expecting me to spit out the entire big bang theory here or what?! This has already been overdone. Why act like you are just hearing the big bang for the first time 1 Like |
Re: Three Arguments For God's Existence by Kay17: 11:55pm On Jul 08, 2015 |
davidylan: But undesigned changes in a designed DNA ought to produce undesigned effects, aren't they? |
Re: Three Arguments For God's Existence by wiegraf: 3:45am On Jul 09, 2015 |
UyiIredia: Uyi, seriously telling even kindergarteners this twaddle would lead normal people to deep shame and embarrassment when they get the chance to reflect on their actions. Enough to cause one psychological trauma... Do you honestly believe this deserves a proper response? Are you genuinely this warped, confused and/or desperate? 3 Likes |
Re: Three Arguments For God's Existence by thehomer: 1:15pm On Jul 09, 2015 |
Joshthefirst: Computer programs are very different things from natural processes like DNA molecules and the formation of the grand canyon. Joshthefirst: Well it works well enough given the diversity of life currently available and the multiple extinction events that have happened. DNA is a natural part of other natural entities. Joshthefirst: What is the obvious design? Stop being belligerent and unreasonable in a futile quest to deny natural events. Joshthefirst: You don't want to believe in any thing that doesn't lead to your God. You deny natural processes due to your dogmatism and unreasonableness. You say it is your God that has done it all. Well how do you know DNA arose by supernatural intervention? 1 Like |
Re: Three Arguments For God's Existence by plaetton: 1:53pm On Jul 09, 2015 |
wiegraf:This is it. This Uyi guy spews out so much convoluted garbage, one cannot even respond without feeling embarrassed at doing so. |
Re: Three Arguments For God's Existence by dalaman: 1:59pm On Jul 09, 2015 |
Please can anybody here show us exactly how the DNA was formed using supernatural intervention? 1 Like |
Re: Three Arguments For God's Existence by thehomer: 4:28pm On Jul 09, 2015 |
wiegraf: You ain't seen nothing yet. Just you wait until he starts vomiting what he considers good sources. |
Re: Three Arguments For God's Existence by KingEbukasBlog(m): 6:51pm On Jul 09, 2015 |
dalaman: They are basically saying that the DNA cant be formed the scratch . Quite impossible . This implies that random or even ordered natural processes cant beget the DNA therefore needing a highly intelligent designer or the supernatural. Its obvious you are imagining magic or superhero movie stuff - "supernatural intervention." Wrong perception of what the supernatural is or means, is what is being witnessed in this thread . Because if you know what the supernatural and the first paragraph of my comment mean, you dont expect a human to show how the DNA was formed using "supernatural intervention." |
Re: Three Arguments For God's Existence by Nobody: 7:33pm On Jul 09, 2015 |
... i don't get it, all this wonderful reality? inference!? haba! |
Re: Three Arguments For God's Existence by Joshthefirst(m): 4:35am On Jul 10, 2015 |
thehomer: dalaman: See why I'm saying? I'm not denying natural events or claiming supernaturalism yet. Neither was davidylan. Can you people read and understand or have you become too warped to understand issues without seeing everything as a threatening referral to the supernatural? Computer programs are designed by entities. I recognize design in natural processes, you deny design. Dogmatically. This is a quite futile argument, because its like arguing with a mad man. How can I be recognizing order, direction, arrangement, precision, and efficiency in a particular complex system and one will run up to me and start calling me unreasonable, trying to claim it all came up by random processes without any evidence? |
Re: Three Arguments For God's Existence by Nobody: 4:40am On Jul 10, 2015 |
Joshthefirst: they have no arguments. That's why they whine about supernatural every 2 seconds... outside of that, they cant confidently discuss the scientific evidence so they have to hide under the thin skirts of noise making and false outrage. |
Re: Three Arguments For God's Existence by Nobody: 4:43am On Jul 10, 2015 |
Kay17: I'm not sure you understood my point at all... infact i think it just went over your head. We were talking about the fact that the basis for the big bang itself is that life started in a state of random chaos... the question is how did random chaos come up with such a fine-tuned system of codes like the DNA? No one is asking you to describe the big bang... if you cant answer the questions then say so rather than all these useless pretense. |
Re: Three Arguments For God's Existence by dalaman: 5:02am On Jul 10, 2015 |
davidylan: Which of the scientific evidence suggests or points out that the DNA was formed by unnatural entities? |
Re: Three Arguments For God's Existence by Kay17: 10:12am On Jul 10, 2015 |
davidylan: But again I repeat, the Big Bang is not chaos nor was the preuniverse. And neither is the Big Bang a direct cause of Life. And neither can you thread any implications of chaos to the origin of life. Hence the bolded is a moot point. You set up a cascade of assumptions nobody agreed to, and presented them up as my position. |
Re: Three Arguments For God's Existence by Kay17: 10:19am On Jul 10, 2015 |
davidylan: An ordered Universe is such because of physical laws. Physical laws create the predictability and determinacy of the Universe. In their absence the Universe would fall into absolute chaos. And the fact that language uses "laws" to describe these forces, does not mean they are similar to human laws which are createable or created. 1 Like |
Re: Three Arguments For God's Existence by Kay17: 10:24am On Jul 10, 2015 |
UyiIredia: I forgot to address the above. So what else is involved? Consciousness?! |
Re: Three Arguments For God's Existence by thehomer: 3:11pm On Jul 10, 2015 |
Joshthefirst: It looks like you've now developed the interesting inability to understand the implications of what you say. When you say something didn't arise by natural means, how exactly would you say it arose? Joshthefirst: I know humans design computer programs. Are you saying that DNA arose by natural means? The mad argument I see here is the assertion that DNA somehow requires some supernatural entity. Joshthefirst: Because you're confusing your subjective experience and limited knowledge for some sort of cosmic order, direction, arrangement, precision and efficiency. |
Re: Three Arguments For God's Existence by thehomer: 3:15pm On Jul 10, 2015 |
davidylan: And because you have no arguments, you hide under the claim of "I'm just asking questions" to detract from the fact that your God is missing. If you can confidently the God based reason for which you hold your beliefs, then please, let's do that. |
Re: Three Arguments For God's Existence by UyiIredia(m): 5:10pm On Jul 10, 2015 |
wiegraf: Not that I had any doubt that you were foolish. Kay17: God. Absent God and I don't think there would be life and certainly not consciousness. One can't reduce, explain or understand consciousness in solely material terms. To explain or understand consciousness you have to be conscious and intelligent. |
Re: Three Arguments For God's Existence by UyiIredia(m): 5:53pm On Jul 10, 2015 |
Kay17: Physical laws are statements by humans to describe how the universe works. As such, they have no causal power, they are simply statements that describe the universe. Note that sometimes the term 'natural laws' is used instead of 'physical laws'. thehomer: Through supernatural means. We can't know exactly how it was achieved but we can be sure that natural factors would have acted in a way contrary to how they usually do. thehomer: Then let's assume no supernatural entity made it. What's the evidence showing that natural processes can effect the DNA ? |
Re: Three Arguments For God's Existence by Kay17: 6:41pm On Jul 10, 2015 |
UyiIredia: I am not surprised at your response because it has always been your position but God himself is conscious |
Re: Three Arguments For God's Existence by Kay17: 7:56pm On Jul 10, 2015 |
UyiIredia: And these statements have no connection to reality?! At least these statements are trying to describe phenomena the Universe exhibits, and these phenomena are what are regarded as physical laws. Humans might have an inaccurate picture of these physical laws, BUT they exist on their own. Uyi stop acting like human statements form legs and hands that shape reality and the behaviour of the Universe. For example, the properties of a triangle are independent from human ideas of it. The triangle is a raging example of physical laws. Another example is causality itself. Why do we expect an effect to come after the cause, why not the effect before the cause. Yet it would be ridiculous to say causality has a causal power. I would define physical laws as the language through which the Universe expresses herself. |
Re: Three Arguments For God's Existence by Nobody: 11:40pm On Jul 10, 2015 |
Kay17: and those physical laws just appeared by chance right? What's the difference between believing God and believing chance? They are both one and the same - based on blind faith. |
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