Jusmudi:

Jesus dn't intercede, he gives u wat u want
Bros if we continue, u ll nt accept my own reason/s nd I ll nt accept all bt we must learn nd am ready 2 learn if u can convince me

Bro. I love the way you reason. I also learn from people, once they speak the truth. Jesus is the only Mediator christians have. Know that intercession is a critical work done by any mediator.

luckyCO:


Ok sir, I pray God to give me grace to be thinking well.
Check what am saying very well, you talked about supplication and it is only made to God alone now you asked why do people asked one another for prayers which I have also answered you.
You can spot the different.

I asked you italo to pray for me and you did and God heard me.
Should I make a doctrine that everybody must be asking you italo for prayers?
Will I go a build Statue and tell people this is Italo that God used to answer my Prayer?
Will I go and begin to compose many songs in the honor of Italo whom God used to answer my Prayer even when believers gather to worship God?
Will I begin to invoke italo's name through recitation and begin to teach my children to do so if they want to get to Christ?
Will I compile beautiful things about italo and establish them as dogma and begin to tech them to my generation?

You know what am saying about but until you are quickened you will continue to speak they way you do.
God bless you.

If God didn't condemn the bold, why are you condemning them?

Barnabaseloka:

I know I have to think but who are those in heaven that can offer prayers to God for the saints?

Rev6:10 they cried out with a loud voice, “Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long will it be before you judge and avenge our blood on the inhabitants of the earth?”

The same ones that offered that prayer against sinners can offer prayers for saints.

The elders who offered the prayers of Saints to God were praying for the saints.

Barnabaseloka:

1. The prayers are from the saints on earth. No saint who has gone into eternity can intercede for the saints living on earth.
2. Was Paul writing to dead saints or to those still living on earth at that time? Read 1 Tim.2:5.
3. They did not pray for anyone on earth, but cried out for vengence for their death.
4. The saints in heaven are resting (sleeping) waiting for the resurrection day. It is obvious the joy is not done by the saints who are asleep. The angels do the rejoicing over one sinner that repents on earth.
5. I don't understand how the place you quoted relates to the topic discussed.

*contradiction alert!

Which one we go take now?

The saints are sleeping...or they are crying out?

italo:


Rev6:10 they cried out with a loud voice, “Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long will it be before you judge and avenge our blood on the inhabitants of the earth?”

The same ones that offered that prayer against sinners can offer prayers for saints.

The elders who offered the prayers of Saints to God were praying for the saints.

The elders did not pray for the saints, but only offered to God the prayers of the saints on earth.
The martyrs only cried for vengence for their death and not praying for anyone.
Your assumption or inference is very costly.

luckyCO:

This is exactly what you where told dear,please check the history yourself and you will see what happened. Read both catholic and protestant side of the story you discover how devil entered the church and when it entered.

I used to make these claims as ;
Catholic is first church funded by Christ
Pope is president of a country and of the biggest church in the world etc.
But when I checked I discovered God in His simplicity and I throw them away because they dont have salvation virtue. I should be ashamed that a church having Over 1.2billion members couldn't change the world spiritually positive.
That means God doesn't work with crowd.

If you are satisfied with the way catholic church and other churches are today, then I will advice you to review what makes you comfortable.
Meanwhile Christ will not judge us by roman catholic, anglican, methodist nor pentecostal doctrine/dogma/creed, He will judge us as it is written.


We have inner witness (the Spirit of truth) so if you say what is true and I have Spirit of truth I should be able to identify it and follow it, that is why we dont framework ourselves when it has to do with salvation.

God bless you.

My Spirit of Truth says that you are lying.

The Spirit of Truth of the Catholic Church, which helped them decide the books of the bible says you're lying.

The Spirit of Truth of all Christians that lived from the time of Jesus till Protestantism started 1600 years later says you're lying.

italo:
If God didn't condemn the bold, why are you condemning them?

Reason why Christ died is to restore us back to state we were before Adam sinned.
It is a state of Son and Father relationship and it will happen here on earth before we are fit to go heaven.

He(God) condemns all that is bold and would not want to us his children to do any of them because it is against His perfect will for us here on earth.

Why it is a little bit confusing is that when the Church entered into the hands of roman they created class(Laity and clergy) making it difficult for people to understand am equal to pope,Mary,Cadinal,GO,Pastor,Paul,Peter etc if am doing my best with the grace God has given me. Since hand is not better than liver nor liver better face, etc and our God is not partial God. He will not tell Mary go to heaven because you gave birth to Christ nor tell Peter go to heaven because you are chief of apostle etc.

God bless you.

Barnabaseloka:

The elders did not pray for the saints, but only offered to God the prayers of the saints on earth.
The martyrs only cried for vengence for their death and not praying for anyone.
Your assumption or inference is very costly.

So offering something to God... is not prayer?

Crying to God to punish someone ...is not praying to God for the person's punishment?

luckyCO:

Reason why Christ died is to restore us back to state we were before Adam sinned.
It is a state of Son and Father relationship and it will happen here on earth before we are fit to go heaven.

He(God) condemns all that is bold and would not want to us his children to do any of them.


God bless you.

Maybe he condemned it in a text message he sent you...but he didn't condemn it in his teaching to the Church.

italo:


*contradiction alert!

Which one we go take now?

The saints are sleeping...or they are crying out?

Can you see where your bias and being quickly judgemental have taken you to?
No.3 talked about the martyred saints crying out for vengence.
No.4 talked about the saints who died and their inability to intercede for the saints who live on earth. When the saints die, we say that they are 'asleep' in death and will be woken up in resurrection. So think rightly before castigating anyone.

italo:


My Spirit of Truth says that you are lying.

The Spirit of Truth of the Catholic Church, which helped them decide the books of the bible says you're lying.

The Spirit of Truth of all Christians that lived from the time of Jesus till Protestantism started 1600 years later says you're lying.

Wonderful. You still talk about things that doesn't have salvation virtue?
Everything you attributed to Catholic church was correct and done by Inspiration of God. We give glory to God.
It is very painful to hear pastor say my church did this and my church did that. Nobody own church it is Christ body except you are not part of it since Christ is not divided.

Stop making claims about body of Christ and mistaken it to be Roman Catholic Church.
They are different!

Catholic Church is spiritual universal body of Christ otherwise known as Mystic body but Roman Catholic Church is Catholic Church mixed with roman culture headed by .... It was devil that used Rome(Rome was world power then) to create all the problem in the Christianity today because they were Idol worshipers, reformers couldn't bear it they protested.

Let us be explicit, let us not mix Roman religion with universal spiritual body of Christ, I think that is the issue here.

Remember within 1600 year Christ died we had dark ages.

italo:


So offering something to God... is not prayer?

Crying to God to punish someone ...is not praying to God for the person's punishment?

Get it clear. When a saint prays on the earth, the elders carry such prayers in the form of incense and present it to God. Their business is that of 'presentation' and not that of 'praying' to God. No being in heaven created by God is capable of praying for the saints on earth.
Yes, the martyrs cried out to God for vengence which is a sort of prayer for vengence. Now how does it concern a saint who has gone into eternity praying for one on earth?

Barnabaseloka:

Get it clear. When a saint prays on the earth, the elders carry such prayers in the form of incense and present it to God. Their business is that of 'presentation' and not that of 'praying' to God. No being in heaven created by God is capable of praying for the saints on earth.
Yes, the martyrs cried out to God for vengence which is a sort of prayer for vengence. Now how does it concern a saint who has gone into eternity praying for one on earth?

Get it clear...offering is prayer.

If the martyrs prayed for sinners to be punished, they can pray for Christians to be blessed.

italo:


Get it clear...offering is prayer.

If the martyrs prayed for sinners to be punished, they can pray for Christians to be blessed.

Costly and twisted inference or conclusion.

luckyCO:


Wonderful. You still talk about things that doesn't have salvation virtue?
Everything you attributed to Catholic church was correct and done by Inspiration of God. We give glory to God.
It is very painful to hear pastor say my church did this and my church did that. Nobody own church it is Christ body except you are not part of it since Christ is not divided.

Stop making claims about body of Christ and mistaken it to be Roman Catholic Church.
They are different!

Catholic Church is spiritual universal body of Christ otherwise known as Mystic body but Roman Catholic Church is Catholic Church mixed with roman culture headed by .... It was devil that used Rome(Rome was world power then) to create all the problem in the Christianity today because they were Idol worshipers, reformers couldn't bear it they protested.

Let us be explicit, let us not mix Roman religion with universal spiritual body of Christ, I think that is the issue here.

Remember within 1600 year Christ died we had dark ages.

So the devil used Rome to compile the bible in Synod of Rome in Year 382?

It seems like you're not taking the prayer I gave seriously. You reasoning is getting more deficient.

Barnabaseloka:

Can you see where your bias and being quickly judgemental have taken you to?
No.3 talked about the martyred saints crying out for vengence.
No.4 talked about the saints who died and their inability to intercede for the saints who live on earth. When the saints die, we say that they are 'asleep' in death and will be woken up in resurrection. So think rightly before castigating anyone.

What is the difference between the two in bold?

Martyred saints did not die?

Chai! Anti-Catholicism is a mental illness!

Barnabaseloka:

Costly and twisted inference or conclusion.

What is costly?

Offering is not prayer?

Martyred saints can only pray for punishment and not for blessing?

italo:


What is the difference between the two in bold?

Martyred saints did not die?

Chai! Anti-Catholicism is a mental illness!

I am not any church fan, and I feel sorry for you for being a religious bigot. I go with anyone who rightly interpretes God's word, and not b/c any church has it as a dogma or doctrine. You are too hardened to learn the truth from others b/c you have held on to a particular doctrine for so long. Concerning your questions, both of them are 'dead' or 'asleep' or at 'rest'.

italo:


What is costly?

Offering is not prayer?

Martyred saints can only pray for punishment and not for blessing?

Do not establish falsehood here. They cried out to God for vengence b/c of their death and that was all that happened. Do not extrapolate unnecessarily in order to have a backup as regards some unscriptural teachings

italo:


No 1: there are many forms of prayer. Offering incense or offerings or fasting or sacrifice or another person's prayer or anything else to God...is prayer in itself.

No 2: you agree that elders carry our prayers to God. You must also agree that those in heaven pray to God to avenge their death on those who killed them. So you believe people in heaven can carry our prayers to God and can pray for you to be punished if you deserve it...

But they cannot pray for you to be blessed if you deserve it?

For the first time in your life, THINK!

hehehe,

this is serious.

All the saints can pray infact they even have access to our prayers and offer them to God(intercession) but they can't pray, if you see protestant reason and you are not suprised then you'll never be suprised again in your life.

Barnabaseloka:

I am not any church fan, and I feel sorry for you for being a religious bigot. I go with anyone who rightly interpretes God's word, and not b/c any church has it as a dogma or doctrine. You are too hardened to learn the truth from others b/c you have held on to a particular doctrine for so long. Concerning your questions, both of them are 'dead' or 'asleep' or at 'rest'.

what truth are you preaching dear?

The saints can pray to God to punish those on earth but no saint can pray God bless those on earth!

Those in heaven are busy offering our prayer before the throne of God and yet you can't recognise that is intercession!

The book of hebrew decribes our Christian life as a big feast with the father, the son, the holyspirit, angels and saints and yet you prefer to tell me the saints can't hear. The problem is that you do not really believe the bible.

When the bible teaches we are in a big feast protestanism says we are in a small room with just Jesus and us. I reject protestanism and hold the fullness of the word of God.

I am in a great feast and with me is God the father, the son whose blood pleads greater than abel, the celestial hosts and the souls of the just now made perfect and my brother and sister, It is one big family in Christ! It is the body of Christ and in it I have fellowship, in it I have communion with both the angels and saints.

So yes when I come before God throne to give praise in Christ Jesus, I like the psalmist before me will invite the host of heaven to join me, when I adore God I do so with them, when I request they ask with me. Praying in the communion of saints is a teaching that has it foundations in scriptures and has continued from the earliest Christians till this day.

When you lift contradictory teaching keep in mind you are the person puting a limit where God has put none and when you accuse italo of misunderstanding the bible please kindly note that you are accusing all Christians from the earliest times of been ignorant thus self righteously declearing that Christianity started with Calvin.

angieberry:
I don't understand your question or the point you're driving at. Pls what verse exactly are you talking about?

i am not refering to one verse but a multitude of them especially in the letters of Paul that continually say "In Christ", infact that is a phrase repeated over and over scriptures.

My question is what do you understand by the term "In Christ"? If I say angieberry is in Christ what do you think it means?

Barnabaseloka:

I am not any church fan, and I feel sorry for you for being a religious bigot. I go with anyone who rightly interpretes God's word, and not b/c any church has it as a dogma or doctrine. You are too hardened to learn the truth from others b/c you have held on to a particular doctrine for so long. Concerning your questions, both of them are 'dead' or 'asleep' or at 'rest'.

And these 'dead' and 'asleep' saints do pray and rejoice about earthly happenings. No?

You don't know the meaning of "bigot."

A bigot doesn't listen to reason.

You don't call someone who provides superior argument to yours a bigot.

The bigot is the one who wants to force his stupidity on others...irrespective of reason. And that is you.

E.g you said Mary's motherly role ended when Jesus started preaching.

You said Jesus' time had come in John 2 when Jesus said categorically that "my time has not yet come."

Barnabaseloka:

Do not establish falsehood here. They cried out to God for vengence b/c of their death and that was all that happened. Do not extrapolate unnecessarily in order to have a backup as regards some unscriptural teachings

My questions again:

Offering is not prayer?

Martyred saints can only pray for punishment and not for blessing?

italo:
So the devil used Rome to compile the bible in Synod of Rome in Year 382?

It seems like you're not taking the prayer I gave seriously. You reasoning is getting more deficient.

Rome did not compile Bible but Holy Spirit,He can use anyone to achieve His purpose on earth Ps 68:18 note all scriptures are inspired by The Holy Spirit.
Dark ages came because Rome headed Catholic Church though they are not believers,you know no-one can defeat the purpose of God.
Why would devil had to wait until all Apostles and those who learned directly from them died? It happened to Israelite, devil waited until those who learned from Moses and Joshua died and Israelites became some thing else. Read Joshua , Judges 1 & 2

Move down from Year 382 down to 1600 check the number saints Roman Catholic Church killed and that is the very dark age we are talking about, that is why pope John Paul II apologized when he first went to Israel. Vatican 1 believed outside Roman Catholic Church there is no salvation but devil couldn't force the true believers anymore Vatican 2 came. Pope would nt have apologized under Vatican 1 you know.

Vatican 3 or 4 may tomorrow change these claims you are making here in order to unit the entire christian community and religion under ecumenism.
And it has started, read this extract http://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/catholicchurch/anti-pope-francis-heresies-october-november-2014/ you will know it will soon happen.

italo:


The bigot is the one who wants to force his stupidity on others...irrespective of reason. And that is you.

I've followed the posts here from the beginning. It's ironic that a discussion that should help us arrive at the truth hence helping us live more rightly before God has elicited a lot of very insulting comments from you, simply because they don't see things the way you do.

I tell anyone who cares to listen. I believe the controversies in Christianity are there to help us test whether the love of Christ abides in us because it is when you don't see eye to eye with a person on issues like these that your love is really put to the test. Yes, we can have intelligent discourse but it should be done with kindness and humility. It is because of people like you that a lot of well meaning people no longer want to have conversations like this.

Please change your attitude. It's very repulsive. The only reason that this discussion hasn't degenerated into an e-war thread is that the people you've been stylishly hurling insults are haven't replied with insults.

That's all I want to say, sir. I look forward to a positive reaction to this post.

italo:


My questions again:

Offering is not prayer?

Martyred saints can only pray for punishment and not for blessing?

Offering sth can sometimes, but not always, mean prayer. The saints on the earth prayed and the elders offered the prayers to God as incense. Nothing concerned the elders with 'praying'. This is like someone delivering a message in a parcel to a king through the king's servant. The duty of the servant is to deliver the parcel and go his way. The elders 'offered' or 'presented' the incense (prayers) to God only.

Stop where the word of God stops. Do not make unnecessarily extrapolations to form bases to unscriptural beliefs. The martyred saints cried for vengence and were told to continue 'resting' or 'sleeping' until others are also killed and it stopped here. Even the blood of Abel also cried for vengence.
1. Can you give me a scriptural example where a saint who has gone into eternity prayed for another saint on earth?
2. Do you want me to believe that the saints who are 'resting' or 'sleeping' or 'dead' still have knowledge of what happens on earth even now?

italo:


And these 'dead' and 'asleep' saints do pray and rejoice about earthly happenings. No?

You don't know the meaning of "bigot."

A bigot doesn't listen to reason.

You don't call someone who provides superior argument to yours a bigot.

The bigot is the one who wants to force his stupidity on others...irrespective of reason. And that is you.

E.g you said Mary's motherly role ended when Jesus started preaching.

You said Jesus' time had come in John 2 when Jesus said categorically that "my time has not yet come."

Stop making a fuss over the issue of Mary being the mother of Jesus. If Mary still plays her motherly role today, then Joseph, unarguably, plays his fatherly role also. Where is the position of God, then? Anyway this is not to be discussed here.

Ecc.9:5 For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing. And they have no more reward, For the memory of them is forgotten.
6. Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished: Nevermore will they have a share in anything done under the sun.
10. Whatever your hands finds to do, do it with your might;, for there is no WORK, or DEVICE or KNOWLEDGE or WISDOM in the grave (world of the dead) where you are going.

Remeber that the martyred saints were 'asleep' until the fifth seal was broken making them cry out for vengence. After this, they went back to their state of rest, waiting for the day of resurrection.
How does this passge affirm that a saint who has gone into eternity prays for the saints who are still on earth?

The Scripture is not only about the words in it , but also about the right interpretation of the words. Come out from your doctrinal bigotry and accept the truth.

Ubenedictus:


what truth are you preaching dear?

The saints can pray to God to punish those on earth but no saint can pray God bless those on earth!

Those in heaven are busy offering our prayer before the throne of God and yet you can't recognise that is intercession!

The book of hebrew decribes our Christian life as a big feast with the father, the son, the holyspirit, angels and saints and yet you prefer to tell me the saints can't hear. The problem is that you do not really believe the bible.

When the bible teaches we are in a big feast protestanism says we are in a small room with just Jesus and us. I reject protestanism and hold the fullness of the word of God.

I am in a great feast and with me is God the father, the son whose blood pleads greater than abel, the celestial hosts and the souls of the just now made perfect and my brother and sister, It is one big family in Christ! It is the body of Christ and in it I have fellowship, in it I have communion with both the angels and saints.

So yes when I come before God throne to give praise in Christ Jesus, I like the psalmist before me will invite the host of heaven to join me, when I adore God I do so with them, when I request they ask with me. Praying in the communion of saints is a teaching that has it foundations in scriptures and has continued from the earliest Christians till this day.

When you lift contradictory teaching keep in mind you are the person puting a limit where God has put none and when you accuse italo of misunderstanding the bible please kindly note that you are accusing all Christians from the earliest times of been ignorant thus self righteously declearing that Christianity started with Calvin.

P/s which passage in Hebrews did you quote? I need to look at it.

Barnabaseloka:

P/s which passage in Hebrews did you quote? I need to look at it.

heb 12: 22-24, it says you have come to mount zion, dear barnabaseloka have you come to mount Zion?

The

Scripture is not only about the words in it , but also about the right interpretation of the words. Come out from your doctrinal bigotry and accept the truth.

[/quote]
How do we know the correct interpretation?(And please not the knowing the true spirit argument you guys always come up with - because it's a non sequitur)Who do we go to if there's a dispute on scripture interpretation?

Barnabaseloka:

I am not any church fan, and I feel sorry for you for being a religious bigot. I go with anyone who rightly interpretes God's word, and not b/c any church has it as a dogma or doctrine. You are too hardened to learn the truth from others b/c you have held on to a particular doctrine for so long. Concerning your questions, both of them are 'dead' or 'asleep' or at 'rest'.

Bros sorry for using this language read Rev 3:15-16 I knw ur deeds, dt u ar neither cold nr hot. I wish u were either! So because u are lukewarm- neither hot nr cold- I am abt 2 spit u out of my mouth