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Re: Three Arguments For God's Existence by Nobody: 11:41pm On Jul 10, 2015 |
Kay17: So by that i assume you think the preuniverse was ordered and the big bang was not a random event? |
Re: Three Arguments For God's Existence by Nobody: 11:42pm On Jul 10, 2015 |
dalaman: Which suggests it was formed by natural events? |
Re: Three Arguments For God's Existence by Kay17: 12:25am On Jul 11, 2015 |
davidylan: Good Question. But again, nobody said physical laws appeared by chance. So there is no need for faith nor blind faith. |
Re: Three Arguments For God's Existence by Kay17: 12:27am On Jul 11, 2015 |
davidylan: For the Big Bang itself to have occurred, it followed a predictable course which is a demonstration of order. Therefore no chaos. |
Re: Three Arguments For God's Existence by Kay17: 12:31am On Jul 11, 2015 |
davidylan: If all Life must be encoded by DNA codes or its like, then we can only conclude that the DNA writer himself is programmed via DNA like codes since this writer is life as well. Except you say this ex machina DNA writer is spiritual. And obviously spiritual to you will mean not physical which is really a vague definition. |
Re: Three Arguments For God's Existence by Nobody: 1:24am On Jul 11, 2015 |
Kay17: So how did they appear? 1 Like |
Re: Three Arguments For God's Existence by Nobody: 1:26am On Jul 11, 2015 |
Kay17: Not only does it not make any sense... what predictable course did it take? who predicted it? How could you predict it BEFORE it happened or are you "predicting" by virtue of hindsight? In that case how can that be "predictable"? In essence, you dont know, you're guessing... all in blind faith of course. 1 Like |
Re: Three Arguments For God's Existence by Nobody: 1:30am On Jul 11, 2015 |
Kay17: This is like listening to Sarah Palin make a speech. meaningless word salad... If life is encoded by DNA then we conclude that the DNA writer is programmed via DNA-like codes... and the writer is life? Is this the definition of circular logic or what? and you call an allusion to the spiritual vague? hilarious. 2 Likes |
Re: Three Arguments For God's Existence by thehomer: 6:51am On Jul 11, 2015 |
UyiIredia: You're confusing the human description of the laws with what they actually describe. The human abstraction for the actual phenomena. You keep making the same mistake and I am no longer surprised that you do so. UyiIredia: Glad to see that you admit what your fellow believers refuse to say. If we don't know how something happened, why should we assume that it occurred by your ill defined supernatural means? That is a classic argument from ignorance. UyiIredia: The fact that natural processes do affect DNA. What exactly did this supernatural entity do and how did it do it? 1 Like |
Re: Three Arguments For God's Existence by Kay17: 10:16am On Jul 11, 2015 |
davidylan: I don't know their origins. i don't know when all the properties of a triangle began to exist or when causality began to exist. Or numbers etc. |
Re: Three Arguments For God's Existence by Kay17: 10:21am On Jul 11, 2015 |
davidylan: If it was chaotic, it could as well have had the effect precede the cause. And you misunderstood 'predictable' used in my reply. i didnt mean it as a prophetic gesture rather to point out its orderly form. the bang occured and yielded a natural result. |
Re: Three Arguments For God's Existence by Kay17: 10:24am On Jul 11, 2015 |
davidylan: Yes it is circular logic of your position. |
Re: Three Arguments For God's Existence by anicheibo: 10:48am On Jul 11, 2015 |
Even if a god (being complex enough to create the universe and all d life within it and exist outside of space and time) exists, it makes no case for any religion in d world. A being dat complex wont be bothered whether one sex of one specie of primate it created covered its hair or not or whether that same specie of primate got down on their knees to praise it. 1 Like |
Re: Three Arguments For God's Existence by UyiIredia(m): 1:30pm On Jul 11, 2015 |
Re: Three Arguments For God's Existence by UyiIredia(m): 1:33pm On Jul 11, 2015 |
anicheibo: @ bold: That's true. In fact, my post is to argue for God as understood by deists and theists: the Creator of the universe. To make the case for the Christian God more arguments are required. |
Re: Three Arguments For God's Existence by UyiIredia(m): 1:53pm On Jul 11, 2015 |
Kay17: The universe doesn't express itself through any language. That's just a figment of your imagination. While physical laws do describe the natural world, they are not the natural world and as such don't exist on their own. Even supposing that by physical laws you meant the physical world, your earlier statement would be circular. It would amount to nothing more than saying the universe is ordered because of the physical world. It's bad when I have to explain your position to you, but as it is, it would have been better for you to have said that order in the universe is self-existent and uncaused. |
Re: Three Arguments For God's Existence by UyiIredia(m): 3:24pm On Jul 11, 2015 |
thehomer: The human description IS the law. Physical laws describe the physical world. Kay17 made the mistake of attributing causality to them and that's wrong. The fact becomes even more obvious considering that some laws have been wrong and so were dropped or modified. For example, the conservation of mass law was upheld until nuclear reactions showed lost mass could be converted to energy and the law was modified accordingly. This is not up for debate. Physical laws being contingent on human understanding can be changed or erased, the physical world can't. Physical laws lack causal power, the physical world has causal power. In trying to defend Kay17 you've made a fool of yourself. thehomer: It isn't. The inference to creation rests on two arguments. 1) The argument against the ability of natural processes to make living systems: This is based on the constraints of natural processes as observed. Coecervates, volcanoes, hydrothermal vents, sunlight and other ABIOTIC natural factors can effect mountains and naturally-occuring chemical compounds etc. They can't effect the sort of compounds seen in living things given the high risk of cross-reactions, lack of availability of starting materials etc. This is the problem of synthesis and it is evidenced by the virtual lack of biochemicals outside of living things. Furthermore, assuming biochemicals existed these natural factors lack the foresight to organize such materials into a living system. Natural factors that supposedly made life would just as quickly kill it and not resurrect it. This is the problem of organization and it is evidenced by the billions of corpses natural factors ONLY degrade and never repair. 2) The observation that intelligent agency is crucial to making systems analagous to living things and understanding them: Indeed the intelligent agency we refer to are humans. However, we isolate intelligence since it is this human property that's sine qua non to man's ability to make devices and understand living systems. Being human isn't enough, babies are humans and so are mentally-disadvantaged persons. It is through intelligence we can make things like Velcro, pumping machines, computers, pulleys etc that are comparable to organs and systems in livings like the heart, brain etc. It is also through intelligence we can understand the systems in such living things and treat them when they are sick, modify them (as in GM foods) and incorporate some of their traits in systems we design. From this we infer a similar intelligent being created us. As you can see, the first argument is a negative one against abiogenesis, and by extension, evolution. If creationists only used the first argument to assert that there was a God, it would be an argument from ignorance. But as it is, the second argument is a positive one for design, or creation if you will. thehomer: This is a poor argument. Natural processes also affect man-made machines, do they make them ? To be specific, I'll need you to show natural processes that can, at least in theory, make a DNA. The evidence would be stronger if they've been observed making it, but at least we'll have a good start. A basis to discuss to plausibility of natural processes making life. |
Re: Three Arguments For God's Existence by Nobody: 6:01pm On Jul 11, 2015 |
Kay17: I think you're confused. My position has been simple - how did random chaos design the DNA? You've been going round in incoherent circles ever since. 2 Likes |
Re: Three Arguments For God's Existence by Nobody: 6:02pm On Jul 11, 2015 |
Kay17: That is blind faith, you have no clue and that is at most a guess on your part. As i said earlier, what differentiates you from someone who says Goddidit? How did the big bang occur in an orderly fashion? It was a natural result of what? |
Re: Three Arguments For God's Existence by Nobody: 6:03pm On Jul 11, 2015 |
Kay17: Ok but you just believe by faith no? |
Re: Three Arguments For God's Existence by Kay17: 6:13pm On Jul 11, 2015 |
UyiIredia: Uyi, I do not see any merit in your argument. You are making a general attack on human language itself. Human language is a mirror to reality, whatever I convey in language is at least my perception of reality. You saying physical laws are mere statements, whilst leaving out the fact that they mirror the world. The fact scientists keep changing assertions as to physical laws, betrays an attempt to capture reality as best as possible. So whenever I say physical laws, see them as the behaviour of the Universe. |
Re: Three Arguments For God's Existence by Kay17: 6:13pm On Jul 11, 2015 |
davidylan: Believe by faith that?! |
Re: Three Arguments For God's Existence by Nobody: 6:34pm On Jul 11, 2015 |
Kay17: You make a lot of bombastic statements on the big bang... either you have evidence or you simply just believe... by faith? |
Re: Three Arguments For God's Existence by Kay17: 6:37pm On Jul 11, 2015 |
UyiIredia: BUT neither humans nor Nature have recreated life which we have witnessed! And what is the criteria for systems analogous to living things?! Complexity?! Irreducible complexity or structural complexity? If we find any of such complexities in Nature, you would say God Did It! What you cooked up as an argument is selective reasoning. As you can see, the first argument is a negative one against abiogenesis, and by extension, evolution. If creationists only used the first argument to assert that there was a God it would be an argument from ignorance. But as it is the second argument is a positive one for design or creation if you will. What in nature would propell it to build an oil rig or an aeroplane with seats in it?!!! Now imagine the absence of all physical laws or for your convenience, all physical descriptions of the Universe, would human intelligence be able to build a plane or a boat? |
Re: Three Arguments For God's Existence by Kay17: 6:45pm On Jul 11, 2015 |
davidylan: davidylan: It appears you are dyslexic. You asked me about the Big Bang and how it being chaos created the DNA. I responded that it was not chaotic and rather orderly since physical laws prevailed. Then you asked about the origin of physical laws, which I did not know neither did I make any assertions about the origins and next you ask me these. Again I repeat, the Big BAng is not chaotic, so ask me that aGAIn AND THEN ACCUSE ME OF going in circles. |
Re: Three Arguments For God's Existence by Nobody: 6:56pm On Jul 11, 2015 |
Kay17: The problem is you have no argument and you're just going around in endless circles. I asked you how you knew that the big bang was not chaotic but ordered. What physical laws where in existence at that time? What brought those physical laws into existence? Magic? How then was the DNA created? where biological laws also in existence at that time or was the creation of DNA simply dependent on the same magical physical laws you talk about? Those are the simple questions... its ok to say you dont know... |
Re: Three Arguments For God's Existence by anicheibo: 7:17pm On Jul 11, 2015 |
The fact dat the rise of dna is inexplicable doesn't destroy d whole theory of evolution... theres a reason why it is considered a theory and intelligent design is not. Every sound theory is able to predict and postdict phenomenon within its discourse, we've seen evolution do it several times, intelligent design hasn't done it once. We dont get d whole dna issue right now, doesn't mean we cant. The beauty of science is its ability to say "I dont know". Stop filling d gaps with intelligent design |
Re: Three Arguments For God's Existence by anicheibo: 7:22pm On Jul 11, 2015 |
Same goes for the big bang, it has its gaps but is the prevailling model for the universe (on scientific consensus) |
Re: Three Arguments For God's Existence by Kay17: 7:51pm On Jul 11, 2015 |
davidylan: Of course I would have no argument because you are unable to respond intelligently. Your arguments against natural encoding of the DNA is premised on the belief that Nature/Universe and in their prior existence as Preuniverse were chaotic. Hence they fall apart like dead flies. Asking me how physical laws began is similar to asking when causality began or when the triangle was created, those are tough questions and you should tread carefully. I think physical laws are responsible for the design and shape the Universe takes. They are fundamental to the Universe and its workings. For example for humans to create any thing, they must have accurate knowledge of physical laws like those of motions, causality etc; and with these knowledge we create our cars and planes and houses. However linear thinkers like you and Uyi, unfortunately fall into the error of believing and comparing the entities and objects we create with the Universe. A design is specification of an object, manifested by an agent, intended to accomplish goals, in a particular environment, using a set of components, satisfying a set of requirements, subject to constraints; |
Re: Three Arguments For God's Existence by UyiIredia(m): 8:26pm On Jul 11, 2015 |
Kay17: According to you physical laws = the behaviour of the universe. Let's apply this to what you said earlier Kay17: This doesn't make sense. It is as absurd as it gets when you stubbornly assert causation to physical laws which are descriptions that lack that quality. |
Re: Three Arguments For God's Existence by Kay17: 8:38pm On Jul 11, 2015 |
UyiIredia: Kay17: |
Re: Three Arguments For God's Existence by UyiIredia(m): 8:48pm On Jul 11, 2015 |
Kay17: Your response here doesn't address the argument. What is selective about my argument ? One can compares eyes to camera lenses, hearts to pumping machines, kidneys to filters, birds to planes and gliders etc. They are different in many ways but do share similar functions. Kay17: Good. If you don't expect anything in nature to build a far simpler oil rig or an aeroplane, why would you expect it result in whales or birds ? What could possibly propel nature to effect them ? Kay17: Yes. Case in point. The light bulb was invented before the wave-particle duality nature of light was understood and before there was a quantum theory explaining how hot metals emitted electromagnetic waves. Another example is the bicycle, the physics of what keeps it balanced while moving is still a mystery. There are more than several examples of things which were invented before scientists explained the laws behind them. 1 Like |
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