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Re: Why Catholics Pray Through Mary by Barnabaseloka(m): 8:04am On Jul 11, 2015 |
Jusmudi:Lol. I do not defend my or any church. I defend the word of God by the help of His Spirit. You do not need defending any church, but the truth being spoken in that church. On the otherhand, if any church goes into error, you use the word of God to correct such. You must not get understanding of God's word only from the church/body of Christ. You get it also from other christians with higher level of spiritual maturity, and from your personal study also. |
Re: Why Catholics Pray Through Mary by Barnabaseloka(m): 8:29am On Jul 11, 2015 |
btoks:Remember that the believers spread to other parts of the world. Anywhere they gathered to worship God constituted a church as it was in Jerusalem. The church or body of Christ at Jerusalem is not the only church/body of Christ. So stop viewing the word 'church' as a gathering of distinct or particular set of early believrs. The scriptures you have and the Holy Spirit help you know the truth, not just going to a particular church. This was why I ask the question of how one has personally studied the scriptures you have with you. Or are you waiting for any particular church to tell you everything- when to do this and when not to do that, when to move and when to stop moving, etc. If you wait for any church (maybe through pastors, bishops, pope, etc.) to direct your christian life in everything you do, when the scriptures are with you, alongside the Holy Spirit,, I wonder how such christian life will look like. |
Re: Why Catholics Pray Through Mary by italo: 9:45am On Jul 11, 2015 |
Barnabaseloka: @ Timmytimmy, please look at this and tell me if this is an answer to my question above... And also tell me if this person is interested in a sincere intelligent discussion. Thank you. |
Re: Why Catholics Pray Through Mary by Barnabaseloka(m): 11:11am On Jul 11, 2015 |
italo:I did not answer you according to how you wanted it. I have written on how the truth is detremined today by christians, and did not tow the path you had in mind. Every church that existed after the one at Jerusalem was independent, yet worked hand in hand with the church at Jerusalem and with its fellow 'sister' churches. The church at Jerusalem, as at then, acted as guide and handled critical matters that could not be resolved among christians. These problems came from the Jews, demanding the christian gentiles to be circumscised. These crucial matters needed to be settled in jerusalem when they got out of hand b/c: 1. The scriptures had not been put together into one book. 2. The leaders in Jerusalem constituted those who had followed Jesus and got first hand information from Jesus Himself. 3. That was where christianity started before spreading to other places. Now, matters are settled in christianity by the scriptures that have been put together and the Holy Spirit. The truths concerning christian beliefs are not decided by any particular church/ body of Christ. Any church/body of Christ or any christian must use the scriptures to teach the truths about christian beliefs and faith. No church has absolute authority in that the truths must be determined by it. |
Re: Why Catholics Pray Through Mary by Jusmudi(m): 11:38am On Jul 11, 2015 |
Barnabaseloka:I hv done dt already yet ur mind can't be changed |
Re: Why Catholics Pray Through Mary by Jusmudi(m): 11:44am On Jul 11, 2015 |
Barnabaseloka:Bros u ll nt accept nt now or ever, is lik u ar a witness |
Re: Why Catholics Pray Through Mary by btoks: 11:47am On Jul 11, 2015 |
Barnabaseloka:the scriptures were not put together as one book for almost 400 years after the event. You'll find that nowhere does it say that matters are settled only by scriptures. Jesus left a teaching church to be helped by the Holy Spirit.there were other matters that came up that had to be addressed in a similar manner to Acts 15(please check out the church councils).matters are addressed in a similar way in our day. to reiterate, leaving every gathering to decide for themselves what is true has led to countless contradictory doctrines. So this approach cannot be correct. 1 Like |
Re: Why Catholics Pray Through Mary by italo: 2:23pm On Jul 11, 2015 |
Barnabaseloka: @Jusmudi, Ubenedictus, Timmytimmy pls look at this and tell me if who is obeying scripture and who is contradicting scripture with false teachings. "For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known" (1Cor.13: 12) our Father Abraham said to the rich man: "Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things" (Lk.16: 25) Abraham knew what they received on earth. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, 'How long, 0 Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?' (Rev 6:10) How did they know that the Lord hadn't avenved their blood on those on earth? "Thus says the Lord God of your father David: Because you have not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat your father, or in the ways of Asa king of Judah, but have walked in the way of the kings of Israel… the Lord will strike your people" (2Chr.21: 12-14). How did Elijah, after his departure from earth, know what was happening? How did he send this letter to Jehoram? “Praise ye the LORD. Praise ye the LORD from the heavens: praise him in the heights. Praise ye him, all his angels: praise ye him, all his hosts” (Psalm 148:1-2). And the bible says we will be like angels. Rachel was long dead (see Gen. 48:7) and departed from the earth during the Babylonian exile when Jeremiah wrote: “Thus saith the LORD; A voice was heard in Ramah, lamentation, [and] bitter weeping; Rahel weeping for her children refused to be comforted for her children, because they [were] not. Thus saith the LORD; Refrain thy voice from weeping, and thine eyes from tears: for thy work shall be rewarded, saith the LORD; and they shall come again from the land of the enemy.” (Jeremiah 31:15-16). The Lord answered her prayer. Again when Herod slaughtered the innocents, Matthew tells us: “In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping [for] her children, and would not be comforted, because they are not” (Matthew 2:18). and “Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth” (Luke 15:10) And the bible says we will be like angels (who know when a sinner repents) “For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven” (Matt. 22:30) Finally, “Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is” (1 John 3:2). And God sees all on earth. 3 Likes |
Re: Why Catholics Pray Through Mary by italo: 2:35pm On Jul 11, 2015 |
Barnabaseloka: So the early Christians determined truth by going to the Church, according to scripture. But according to your tradition, Christians should determine truth by going scripture. You are contradicting the Bible again. Another question. What is the pillar and foundation of truth? Judge Timmytimmy, where are you now? |
Re: Why Catholics Pray Through Mary by italo: 3:16pm On Jul 11, 2015 |
Barnabaseloka:Who determines whether they are contradicting scriptures or not? You? |
Re: Why Catholics Pray Through Mary by Barnabaseloka(m): 4:15pm On Jul 11, 2015 |
italo:You determine it in your private study, or when you go for other christian seminars or bible study classes. The Holy Spirit can use another christian to teach you the truth in the scriptures in these places. |
Re: Why Catholics Pray Through Mary by Barnabaseloka(m): 4:58pm On Jul 11, 2015 |
italo:You did not read my post well, so go back and read it. The church/body of Christ is the pillar and foundation of the truth. This shows that the church preserves, supports upholds, defends and transmits the truth to christians for the future. The church/body of Christ is meant to maintain the truth, defending it from errors and transmitting it for the future. Note: The gathering of christians anywhere constitutes the church/body of Christ. Paul was not saying that the truth is got from only a particular church/ body of Christ in 1 Tim 2:15, With what will the church/body of Christ stand as a pillar and ground for the truth to deterrmine christian beliefs and faith? |
Re: Why Catholics Pray Through Mary by Barnabaseloka(m): 6:13pm On Jul 11, 2015 |
italo:1. Christians will have the full knowledge of everything at the end of age (when they enter their eternal joy). Deut.29:29 The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but those things which are revealed belong to us and to our children forever... 2. The story of the rich man and Lazarus was a parable as we have that of the lost coin and the lost sheep and others. So we cannot base this discuss clearly on parables. There are core reasons why parables are given, and these reasons are what we aim at to understand. 3. The martyred saints cried for vengence only at the opening of the fifth seal and it stopped at it. They never did so before the seal was broken and after they were told to rest for a while. They got to know as the seal was opened. 4. The books of chronicles recorded the events that took place when each King of Israel reigned. The letter was sent by Elijah to Joharam when he was alive. Joharam had become king of Judah in 1 Kings 22:50 before Elijah was taken by God in 2 Kings 2:11. 5. We will be like angels after we have been changed to immortality and incorruptibility at the end of age. 6.The words in Jer.31:15 were used by Jeremiah as figurative and not that Rachel was crying at that point. The crying of Rachel was used to show the extent at which the children of Ephraim had suffered. Rachel was specifically used b/c she was the mother of Joseph who gave birth to Ephraim. Check out the same Jer.31:18-20 and you will understand that Ephraim was figuratively used to show the despicable state his children were into. 7. The angels know when a sinner repents for they are ministering angels unto God and unto those who are on earth. We will be like the angels on the resurrection day. |
Re: Why Catholics Pray Through Mary by Jusmudi(m): 9:06pm On Jul 11, 2015 |
italo:my broda God bless u. Infact u are 2ruli a man. 200likes for u |
Re: Why Catholics Pray Through Mary by Barnabaseloka(m): 9:10pm On Jul 11, 2015 |
Jusmudi:I am not a Jehoxah witness if that is what you mean. |
Re: Why Catholics Pray Through Mary by Jusmudi(m): 9:16pm On Jul 11, 2015 |
Barnabaseloka:To tel u d truth. U tried bringing ur point, bt broda u just want 2 argue. Bliv me am just tired because all our points u countered it Witout gud point. Infact u ar a J.w |
Re: Why Catholics Pray Through Mary by Barnabaseloka(m): 9:16pm On Jul 11, 2015 |
Jusmudi:Lol. I change my mind when you can substantially prove your case from the scriptures. I do not go with anyone just b/c a pastor or bishop or overseer or pope has said so. I am not the fan of any church leader or of any church. |
Re: Why Catholics Pray Through Mary by Jusmudi(m): 9:18pm On Jul 11, 2015 |
Barnabaseloka:Guy email me mudijp@gmail.com Guy nt dt am giving up bt we are just arguing. We dn't want 2 learn |
Re: Why Catholics Pray Through Mary by Jusmudi(m): 9:24pm On Jul 11, 2015 |
Barnabaseloka:I dn't go 2 church because of anyperson I go 2 catholic because every tin abt d church is found in d bible nd is been founded by Christ. I do attend catholic church because I recieve d body nd blood of Christ, I go 2 catholic church because I Bliv in saints, Angels, four living creatures, Elders, I Bliv in Trinity, I Bliv in my mother Mary as d gr8 intercessor |
Re: Why Catholics Pray Through Mary by Barnabaseloka(m): 9:34pm On Jul 11, 2015 |
Jusmudi:I have told you that I am not a JW. Prove to me the points that I have countered explicitly. When you quote the scriptures, explain them with other scrptures so that any other person can understand. Arguing a point is part of debate and there is nothing wrong with it. |
Re: Why Catholics Pray Through Mary by Barnabaseloka(m): 9:45pm On Jul 11, 2015 |
Jusmudi:I underatnd what you mean. Any topic on this forum is open to debate. As I said debate constitutes argument. |
Re: Why Catholics Pray Through Mary by Barnabaseloka(m): 9:53pm On Jul 11, 2015 |
Jusmudi:Bro. no church can say it is perfect. Only the word of God is perfect. This is why when christians gather as a church/body of Christ, they learn from the scriptures to come to perfection. If any christian at this time takes in EVERYTHING any church says, even when the scriptures say the contrary, I do not know what to say to such a person. |
Re: Why Catholics Pray Through Mary by Jusmudi(m): 10:55pm On Jul 11, 2015 |
Barnabaseloka:U are correct, bt I ll argue wen u prove 2 hv a point |
Re: Why Catholics Pray Through Mary by Jusmudi(m): 10:57pm On Jul 11, 2015 |
Barnabaseloka:Nd Dts y u need 2 prove ur point because 2 me u just want 2 argue |
Re: Why Catholics Pray Through Mary by aGerald(m): 11:21pm On Jul 11, 2015 |
Thought I should ask the catholics here: (my questions are not concerning the title of this thread) Was Mary perpetually a virgin? And what proof is there of this? Did she assume to heaven? proof? Was she the woman talked of in the revelation of john? Cause I see no reason why Jesus will be at the mercy of the devil, whom he should be greater than. |
Re: Why Catholics Pray Through Mary by Barnabaseloka(m): 6:14am On Jul 12, 2015 |
Jusmudi:I know that I have not proven a point to you b/c I explained everything I said from the scriptures, instead of following what any church has said without asking questions when I see contradictions from the scriptures. The posts written by people here tend toward argument in order to prove their points, including yours. Do you want me to just swallow everything taught in any particular church as truth? Why did the Bereans not do so when Paul (a great apostle) taught them in Acts 17:11? Why did Paul tell Timothy (and all believers in Christ) to study the scriptures in order to rightly divide (teach) it in 2 Tim.2:15? Should we just believe any teaching from any church b/c the church has said so? What if such teachings contradict the scriptures? |
Re: Why Catholics Pray Through Mary by btoks: 6:43am On Jul 12, 2015 |
Barnabaseloka:Fact:the early church was one church guided by the apostles and the structure carried on after their death. It is convenient to state centuries later that this wasn't the case but history disproves this. Yes christianity spread, more of a reason why structure was required through the bishops who met regularly. Due to several groups thinking they knew the truth by themselves,we had heresies like the arian,Nestorian etc.The church had to clearly state the true teaching which also includes the communion of saints. I've tried to state how your view of everyone interpreting scriptures without guidance does not work as you don't accept the communion of saints teaching even though the church taught this way back in the Nicene Creed. I doubt the holy spirit is the cause of all the differences. I study the scriptures but divorcing this act from it's historical context leads to confusion. The fact that we relied on the church to compile the scriptures for us,the fact that it's the pillar and foundation of truth implies we have recourse to it has the guide.Matt 18 talks about ultimately taking disputes to the church. The church was always established as one, the fact that Paul wrote to a number of them asking them to adhere to the teachings by word or letter says as much. 1 Like |
Re: Why Catholics Pray Through Mary by btoks: 7:04am On Jul 12, 2015 |
Barnabaseloka: Following your point on the Bereans, how come the Tessalonians did not agree with Paul’s teaching after going through the same scriptures in the preceding verses Acts 17:1-10 but tried to put Paul into trouble?? Also,New Testament books were not completed at this point, so the Bereans were looking through the Old Testament. I wonder why the majority of Jews never accepted Jesus as Messiah after all they’ve been reading the Torah for Centuries. 1 Like |
Re: Why Catholics Pray Through Mary by italo: 7:15am On Jul 12, 2015 |
Barnabaseloka: So you mean God's Church can teach error that can lead people to hell? 1 Like |
Re: Why Catholics Pray Through Mary by Barnabaseloka(m): 8:30am On Jul 12, 2015 |
italo:Yes, as long as they do not follow God's word. |
Re: Why Catholics Pray Through Mary by Jusmudi(m): 1:34pm On Jul 12, 2015 |
Barnabaseloka:Did u even go 2 church 2day? |
Re: Why Catholics Pray Through Mary by Barnabaseloka(m): 2:34pm On Jul 12, 2015 |
Jusmudi:Yes |
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