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Re: ( MUST READ) Four Reasons Why We Cant Lose Our Salvation by 5solas(m): 7:54am On Aug 17, 2015 |
ayoku777:The above is a nice submission and I have liked and shared it. However, I still disagree about the unbelief/ faith bit. I will comment on it later. Just wondering what Vooks thinks. He has been on about man doing his bit. |
Re: ( MUST READ) Four Reasons Why We Cant Lose Our Salvation by An2elect2(f): 7:55pm On Aug 17, 2015 |
5solas: Lol. He forgot that God is the author and finisher of our faith. 5solas: Vooks needs thorough study of the scriptures. I pray God grant him sight. 1 Like |
Re: ( MUST READ) Four Reasons Why We Cant Lose Our Salvation by 5solas(m): 10:27pm On Aug 17, 2015 |
First and foremost I have dropped all my weapons. If we agree on faith and works and their roles in the life of the believer, I think we do, then there is no need for a fight. ayoku777:Alright. I discovered right early a pattern from the Bible, the epistles in particular, firstly a teaching on how we get saved, with an admonition that it is not of our works (it is not deserved!) and secondly an exhortation on how to conduct ourselves now that we are saved. Granted that some believers are carnal like the man that took his father's wife, how do you admonish such? Persuaded that he was a believer but seeing him wallow in sin? This was Paul's dilemma. He found a skillful way out. If Paul was talking to pretentious unbelievers; he would warn them to check themselves if they were truly grafted into Christ, if they truly believe in Him. He would not warn them of being cut off. You can't cut off what was never grafted; and unbelievers were never grafted.Alright. I think he was talking to believers, I have affirmed that much before. However, what if the carnality of a few needed addressing, how would he have done it. persuaded as he was that they had all believed and were saved? Don't insult my intelligence, this is not rocket science. Pretentious, self-deluding unbelievers are not standing by faith and were never grafted into Christ; so the warning of being cut off does not and cannot apply to them.What then happens to our belief that salvation is not deserved? You obviously don't know me. So don't even presume you do.Thanks for your clarification on your stand concerning works, we completely agree. However,giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils is a sin. I fail to see any unbelief that is not rooted in sin. 1 Tim. 4:1 ¶ Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;Note also as An2elect2 just pointed out, that God Himself is the Author and Finisher of our faith. |
Re: ( MUST READ) Four Reasons Why We Cant Lose Our Salvation by 5solas(m): 10:40pm On Aug 17, 2015 |
An2elect2: Amen. He can learn a lot from Ayoku777. 1 Like |
Re: ( MUST READ) Four Reasons Why We Cant Lose Our Salvation by ayoku777(m): 5:06am On Aug 18, 2015 |
5solas: You're right, unbelief in Christ is a sin; it is the grandfather of all sins. Every other sin is unto spiritual demotion, but unbelief is the only sin unto spiritual death (1John 5v16). It is the unpardonable sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit; because it is the only sin that rejects the Spirit's witness that Jesus is the Messiah, and calls the Spirit a liar. And you're also right, unbelief can be rooted in, or start from, other sins, especially the unbelief of departure from the faith. Believers who depart from the faith and revert into unbelief did not get there overnight. Most times, there is a process of spiritual degeneration. Carnality unchecked degenerated into lukewarmness, lukewarmness into spiritual indifference; and indifference into unbelief. So even though carnality can not cost us our salvation, it is one of the bus stops that get us there. Even so, you don't lose salvation until unbelief. And about the doctrines of demons; these are the philosophies of men, arguments of rationalist, and other confusing and unanswered questions about life and its challenges; that seducing spirits use to contend with the faith of believers in Christ. To make them doubt God, His love, His justice or even His existence. But its ultimately to make them depart from faith in Christ and revert into unbelief. I give it to you, that many present athiests fall into this group. They were true believers in Christ before, not pretenders as we love to assume. But many years down the line and for various reasons, ranging from unanswered prayers, a calamity they felt they didn't deserve; or many things they couldn't explain in the bible or things they couldn't understand about their life or other's; really shook their faith. And instead of them to go back to the scriptures and ask the Holy Spirit to open their understanding; they started listening to philosophies of men and arguments of rationalist, and other doctrines of demons. Which ended up eroding what was left of their already shaken faith. Till they finally departed from faith in Christ and became unbelievers. Now, they no longer believe Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of the Living God; and that He died for their sins and rose for their justification. Something they truly did believe once. They now see their days spent in the faith as days of ignorance and naivety. They departed from the faith. So yes, departing from the faith is a clear and present danger. It has happened to many believers and the Holy Spirit says it will happen to more. And about Jesus being the author and finisher of our faith. This is true; Jesus is many things. Jesus is saviour of the world, but are all saved? NO! Jesus is healer, are all healed? NO! He is our healer and He bore stripes for our healing; but many believers are still sick and dying of sickness. Jesus also reconciled the whole world to God on the cross, yet billions are still estranged to God through unbelief. Truth is, whatever Jesus is, He will not force it on us. Jesus is the saviour of the world and He wants all men saved, but He will not save us whether we want it or not; that's why many remain unsaved. Jesus doesn't want any believer to depart from the faith and revert into unbelief, but He will not finish our faith whether we want it or not. That's why some will depart from the faith. The idea that whatever God wants from us will happen whether we want and let it or not, is a lie. If it is so, all men will be saved and no saved person will be carnal, much less depart from the faith. Yet all this happen, is happening, and will happen. Proving that when it comes to having faith, or keeping the faith, or departing from the faith; what God wants is not imposed, it is only offered. Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith, but He is the author and finisher of the faith of those who let Him. He will not author or finish our faith whether we want it or not. At no point does grace override our right of choice to keep the faith or depart from the faith. Grace can be rejected, or received in vain (that is, received and dumped). The choice to keep the faith or depart from it, is perpetually ours. I have already quoted many verses to show that we can reject God's offer of salvation and resist the ministry of the Spirit in our lives. I don't want to belabour it again, lest we start arguing in circles. Shalom! |
Re: ( MUST READ) Four Reasons Why We Cant Lose Our Salvation by Nobody: 3:02pm On Aug 19, 2015 |
my final quote. John5:24:-Verily,verily,I say unto you,He that hears my Word and believes on him that sent me,hath everlasting life,and SHALL NOT COME INTO CONDEMNATION;but is passed from death to life. John10:28"And i give unto them eternal life;and they shall never perish,neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." 29My father which gave them to me is greater than all;no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. what is Jesus saying here?. I want answers Cc vooks,scholar8200,jiggaz,ayoku777. |
Re: ( MUST READ) Four Reasons Why We Cant Lose Our Salvation by Scholar8200(m): 3:41pm On Aug 19, 2015 |
sportsmaster: When we talk of the New Covenant, a covenant requires each party to play their roles. The New Covenant is not an exception! Paul wrote under inspiration regarding those who lived during the OT that: 11 Now these things befell them by way of a figure [as an example and warning to us]; they were written to admonish and fit us for right action by good instruction, we in whose days the ages have reached their climax (their consummation and concluding period).1 Corinth 10:11 Now Jesus in those passages made it clear that God is able to keep us to the end. However we need to balance the references above with other places where our part in that covenant is given: 1. John 3:16 (No need to quote this one) talks of the need to believe on Him. 2. John 15:1-7 talks of the need to abide/continue in Him after we have believed else we'll be cast off ;just what Paul said in Romans 11:22: Then note and appreciate the gracious kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s gracious kindness to you—provided you [size=13pt]continue[/size] in His grace and abide in His kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off (pruned away). 3. John 15:10 highlights one area where abiding in Him is to be measured: If you keep My commandments [if you continue to obey My instructions], you will abide in My love and live on in it, just as I have obeyed My Father’s commandments and live on in His love. Corollary? No man can pluck us out of His hand, AGAINST OUR WILL! Else why did Jesus give this condition: And he who overcomes (is victorious) and who obeys My commands to the [very] end [doing the works that please Me], I will give him authority and power over the nations; Revelations 2:26 The Promised Land was given (as a gift) to those under the OT but they failed to take it due to unbelief, the portion they conquered had to be forfeited when they departed from God. Likewise we in the NT receive the gift of righteousness (imputed and imparted) by faith and there is need to continue in that faith and its evidence of a life that pleases God else our faith becomes vain and we become reprobates! Paul commended these and I believe it describes what we are to continue in: Recalling unceasingly before our God and Father your work energized by faith and service motivated by love and unwavering hope in [the return of] our Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah).1 Thessalonians 1:3 |
Re: ( MUST READ) Four Reasons Why We Cant Lose Our Salvation by vooks: 5:04pm On Aug 19, 2015 |
sportsmaster: BELIEVES is active continuous tense. John10:28"And i give unto them eternal life;and they shall never perish,neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."Nothing can pluck you from Jesus/Father's hand. But you are not held there against your will. You can walk away. Think Adam in Eden. NOTHING could pluck him from Eden. Not even Satan. But the devil provoked him to rebel and walk away from all that 1 Like |
Re: ( MUST READ) Four Reasons Why We Cant Lose Our Salvation by 5solas(m): 8:39pm On Aug 19, 2015 |
vooks: Thanks for the excellent distinction ! We now know satan is different from the devil ! |
Re: ( MUST READ) Four Reasons Why We Cant Lose Our Salvation by vooks: 8:54pm On Aug 19, 2015 |
5solas:Welcome |
Re: ( MUST READ) Four Reasons Why We Cant Lose Our Salvation by Nobody: 9:41pm On Aug 19, 2015 |
vooks: obviously,turning away from Christ is the only thing that can deny you heaven. not sinful actions |
Re: ( MUST READ) Four Reasons Why We Cant Lose Our Salvation by An2elect2(f): 10:46pm On Aug 19, 2015 |
5solas: They cant see the contradictions in what they profess. Nothing can pluck him from God's hand but but but his choice/will Then there is something than can pluck him out 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: ( MUST READ) Four Reasons Why We Cant Lose Our Salvation by An2elect2(f): 10:48pm On Aug 19, 2015 |
sportsmaster: And none of the elects will turn away. If any one abandons the faith, then he/she was never a part of the fold. 1 Like |
Re: ( MUST READ) Four Reasons Why We Cant Lose Our Salvation by ayoku777(m): 1:22am On Aug 20, 2015 |
An2elect2: This is the lie you're peddling. That if someone can depart from the faith, he was never in the fold. How convenient. So there are unelected believers? So there are believers in Christ now, who are not elected? So we believers in Christ are not even sure yet if we are among the elect? We just have to wait to see if we depart from the faith; then we will know if we are elected or not? Listen and listen good. There is no believer in Christ who is not an elect. And if a believer can depart from the faith, according to the Holy Spirit; it means even the elect can fall away. 2Peter 1v10 -Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: If our election is inherently sure or unmovable by default; why would the scripture admonish us to give diligence to making it sure (or making sure it doesn't move) ? That God is Sovereign doesn't mean He is a dictator; All-powerful doesn't mean All-imposing. Time and time again Jesus warned the churches in revelation; "He that overcometh...". Why that statement? Isn't every believer an overcomer? If every believer will end an overcomer by force, will you be telling believers, "He that overcometh..." ? Some believers will depart from the faith and will not end as overcomers. And believers who don't end as overcomers, will have their names blotted out of the book of life (Rev 3v5) and will be hurt of the second death -lake of fire (Rev 2v11) This statement that anyone who can depart from the faith was never an elect is a lie. There is no such thing as an unelected believer. Every believer is an elect of God. Those who depart from faith in Christ did not make their election sure. The choice to keep or depart from the faith is perpetually ours. Jesus being the author and perfecter of our faith is not whether we want it or not. Shalom. 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: ( MUST READ) Four Reasons Why We Cant Lose Our Salvation by ayoku777(m): 2:03am On Aug 20, 2015 |
sportsmaster: No man, no challenge may be able to pluck your wife out of your embrace; if you really love her that much -not even her attitude, her mood swings, or her tantrums. But what if it is the wife herself that wants to leave you? No one is plucking her, she's just tired of your embrace; and wants to depart. Even the Almighty God that said He hates divorce; experienced one. Malachi 2v16 -For the Lord, the God of Israel, saith that he hateth putting away (divorce) : But He himself suffered divorce from Israel, when Israel left Him; Jeremiah 3v1 -...but thou hast played the harlot with many lovers; yet return again to me, saith the Lord. v7 And I said after she had done all these things, Turn thou unto me. But she returned not. And her treacherous sister Judah saw it. v8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; God was even willing to forgive the adultery of Israel and receive her back, but Israel would not return. And so, God let her go. If God tells you, I will never leave you; He means it. But what if you want to leave Him? Will He hold you down because He promised He will never leave you? NO! His promise of not leaving you depends on you wanting to stay too. So if Jesus says nothing can pluck you out of His hands and you will never perish; that is if you want to stay. The world and the devil cannot pluck you out of His hands if you want to stay. The idea that the covenant of salvation leaves nothing to our involvment; is a lie. There is no covenant without conditions binding on either parties in the covenant. The condition for ours is faith; and keeping the faith. We can't save ourselves, but we can choose to accept or reject the offer to be saved by faith. Or even accept the offer by faith then depart from the faith. Nothing can pluck you out of His hands, but you can depart all on your own. And Jesus will not hold you down by force. But unbelief is the only way you depart and lose the salvation. Shalom! 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: ( MUST READ) Four Reasons Why We Cant Lose Our Salvation by vooks: 3:41am On Aug 20, 2015 |
sportsmaster:You can't turn away from Christ unless you were in Him. You are a candidate for turning away But I pray you persevere |
Re: ( MUST READ) Four Reasons Why We Cant Lose Our Salvation by Nobody: 4:14am On Aug 20, 2015 |
An2elect2: Mind if I come in here If we deliberately walk against the word we need not denounce Christ with words our actions already says who we are serving. If we confess christ with our mouth and our actions say otherwise we are not of his fold. So even if we don't want to leave and nothing is drawing us away if we fail to walk in the spirit and then end up fulfilling the laws of the flesh. It boils down to same thing. The line between salvation and condemnation is so thin most people won't know when they have crossed out of Gods grace. its either one serves God or you serve Sin No 1 can serve 2 masters. Good morning 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: ( MUST READ) Four Reasons Why We Cant Lose Our Salvation by vooks: 4:33am On Aug 20, 2015 |
5solas: Man has a responsibility in his salvation. His role is to RESPOND to God's grace. Responding is not working; responding is a CONDITION for salvation. Faith is not salvation, it is a condition for salvation. If man had no role whatsoever in salvation, then Peter must have been smoking weed in responding to this question here; Acts 2:37 English Standard Version (ESV) 37 Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” So what did he tell them, 'do NOTHING'? Acts 2:38 English Standard Version (ESV) 38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. And elsewhere, Acts 2:40 English Standard Version (ESV) 40 And with many other words he bore witness and continued to exhort them, saying, “Save yourselves from this crooked generation.” How were they to save themselves? By dying on the cross? Nope, but by ACCEPTING, by RECEIVING the gift of salvation 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: ( MUST READ) Four Reasons Why We Cant Lose Our Salvation by ABDULADINO(m): 6:32am On Aug 20, 2015 |
[quote author=ayoku777 post=37137888] A person who left the fold is NOT a believer to start with. A "Christian" who responded to an altar call in 1982, but isn't following Jesus isn't really a believer. The New Testament qualifies the definition of a believer as being one who has faith in Jesus Christ. Faith is more than merely having some knowledge about the facts surrounding the life and teaching of Jesus Christ. You made mention in your earlier posts of atheists who left the fold due to unbelief. I believe if you make further inquires of them, it will be clear that they never truly understood what faith meant, and never had any kind of experience with the Holy Spirit. Jesus himself made it plain in scriptures that they were never truly his, they never had any intercourse nor intimacy with him. These are tares masquerading as wheat. "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' (Matthew 7:21-23) Either way you translate it, these people are pretending to be followers of Jesus while they continually practice evil deeds. So, these people are not backsliding Christians, but unbelievers who were never truly saved. John also made it clear : They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us. (1 John 2:19) Not a single verse in the bible indicates a true believer can fall into unbelief. He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Corinthians 1: 2Peter 1v10 -Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: Over 80 verses, from virtually every New Testament book indicates that the believer is predestined, called, chosen, and sealed as a child of God to be an heir with Christ for glorification in heaven. The idea that believers can never have assurance of their salvation is something that is refuted over and over in the Bible. Revelation 2:11 In revelation 2:11, Jesus says to the church at Smyrna, "He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death." The term "second death" is a term defined later in the book of Revelation and refers to those who are thrown into the lake of fire (hell) after the judgment. All true believers overcome the temptations and trials of the world and are not subject to eternal condemnation. I have already addressed this query of yours before and you never countered it. Revelation 3:5 says, "He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life." The question is what is this "book of life" and how does one's name get into the book or be removed from the book? The Old Testament verses describing the "book of Life" indicate that all the living are placed in the book of life and are removed from the book as the result of systematic sin (i.e., unbelief). In the New Testament, the book of Revelation says that names are written in the book of life only for those who believe. However, their names were written in the book "from the creation of the world." In Revelation 3:5, Jesus says He "will never blot out his name from the book of life" to those who overcome. He didn't say He would blot out the names of those who fall. However, believers have been given the authority to "overcome all the power of the enemy" (Luke 10:19). 1 Like |
Re: ( MUST READ) Four Reasons Why We Cant Lose Our Salvation by ABDULADINO(m): 6:42am On Aug 20, 2015 |
muphasar11:Yes, believers sin, but do not live in a state of continual sin.The claim that the doctrine of eternal security might lead to licentiousness is a red herring. Paul already debunked this when he said It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that does not occur even among pagans: A man has his father's wife... hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord. (1 Corinthians 5:1, 5) Paul shows that the man was committing incest with his father's wife (mother?), yet Paul was still confident that his spirit would be saved. So, a true believer cannot lose his salvation through sin. 2 Likes 1 Share |
Re: ( MUST READ) Four Reasons Why We Cant Lose Our Salvation by ABDULADINO(m): 6:51am On Aug 20, 2015 |
vooks:Go back and reread that scripture. God's mercy triumphed over judgement despite the challenge. God covers them with his mercy. The blood of the skin wrapped around Adam even when he deliberately rebelled was a shadow of what is to come. The Bible indicates that the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin. This means that no sin a believer commits can result in condemnation or loss of salvation 2 Likes 1 Share |
Re: ( MUST READ) Four Reasons Why We Cant Lose Our Salvation by 5solas(m): 6:56am On Aug 20, 2015 |
An2elect2: This false way of reasoning is called cavillation. It is a stock-in-trade of Arminians. 1 Like |
Re: ( MUST READ) Four Reasons Why We Cant Lose Our Salvation by ABDULADINO(m): 7:00am On Aug 20, 2015 |
vooks:This is a pitiable doctrine. There is NO CONDITION for salvation. Eph 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. (NKJ) 2 Likes 1 Share |
Re: ( MUST READ) Four Reasons Why We Cant Lose Our Salvation by Nobody: 7:57am On Aug 20, 2015 |
ayoku777: that is what i am saying in essence. Sins will be forgiven. But to turn away from Christ,the author of salvation,you dint lose salvation,YOU THREW IT AWAY. Lol |
Re: ( MUST READ) Four Reasons Why We Cant Lose Our Salvation by Nobody: 8:11am On Aug 20, 2015 |
vooks:i get the point bro. Jesus saves us completely. But we must stick to him as our Lord and saviour. He warned same thing in Matt24: we must stick to him as our Lord and savior to the end. |
Re: ( MUST READ) Four Reasons Why We Cant Lose Our Salvation by ayoku777(m): 8:13am On Aug 20, 2015 |
sportsmaster: Spot on! Then we are the on the same page. We were just arguing over semantics. I thought you belonged to the group that believes that there are some people God does not want to save. That those who will go to the lake of fire were not in Christ's salvation plan. And that "those" God wants to save cannot reject God's salvation or depart from it through unbelief. You're clearly not in that school of thought. We are good bro! Shalom |
Re: ( MUST READ) Four Reasons Why We Cant Lose Our Salvation by Nobody: 8:28am On Aug 20, 2015 |
ABDULADINO:know that salvation is a promise. To receive a promise,you must believe it. |
Re: ( MUST READ) Four Reasons Why We Cant Lose Our Salvation by Nobody: 8:40am On Aug 20, 2015 |
ABDULADINO: 1 Like |
Re: ( MUST READ) Four Reasons Why We Cant Lose Our Salvation by jiggaz(m): 10:12am On Aug 20, 2015 |
sportsmaster:Jesus was saying that once you are saved, you can never be unsaved. A Believer in CHRIST doesn't lose his Salvation because he sins.... The only way Salvation can be lost is if the person denounces CHRIST which is rare.... |
Re: ( MUST READ) Four Reasons Why We Cant Lose Our Salvation by Nobody: 10:17am On Aug 20, 2015 |
jiggaz:ayoku777 was saying the same thing,you guys did not read and understand each others texts. |
Re: ( MUST READ) Four Reasons Why We Cant Lose Our Salvation by ayoku777(m): 10:33am On Aug 20, 2015 |
jiggaz: Spot on bro! Nawa o! So you mean we've spent 5 pages arguing over semantics, when we've actually being saying the same thing? That's what "departing from the faith" means. You are saved and justified by faith in Christ; and you lose it if you depart from faith in Christ. What you are calling "denouncing Christ", I am using the scriptural term "departing from the faith". But we mean the same thing. You don't lose your salvation to sin or carnality. Even a carnal christian is still in Christ. That's why they are called "babes IN CHRIST" (1Cor 3v1). We only lose salvation to unbelief, to "departing from the faith". You didn't really articulate your stand well at the beginning; that's why. Because we obviously are saying the same thing. Shalom! |
Re: ( MUST READ) Four Reasons Why We Cant Lose Our Salvation by ayoku777(m): 10:36am On Aug 20, 2015 |
sportsmaster: Thanks and God bless! |
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