dmandy:
Great makes sense to me now... Abraham's bossom is the same thing as paradise and was a part of hell which has gone into extinction. Well give me a bible proof and not tell to go and study... study with what? Convince me that the place has vanished, and like the vestigial organ lost its function of holding spirits till the final cleansing.

BTW. When Jesus said on the cross to that thief "Today you shall be with me in paradise". Well, that day, did Jesus go to heaven or hell?

If you can't answer this question then you don't even know what we have been talking about all along.

That's scripture.

Sounds to me like you believe in history... think we are on a similar page. So for you to understand somethings in the bible you need to go to history... why then do we differ? why then do we quarrel amongst ourselves.

As for you the sin that lead unto death.. you have given me example. Pray thee tell me one example of sin that leads not unto death. And I will believe you and your video. Just one.

Jeromejnr:


1. It's not a video outside the bible but on expounding the scriptures from the original greek which the NT was written in.

2. I don't really have time to go into all details here. But if you want to understand the bible, then you need to go to the original languages it was written in. (Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic)

BTW. Sin unto death is Apostasy (completing turning your back from God and choosing from the heart never to follow God but just live your life in continuous sin. It's does not apply to baby Christians. And not to get in a lot of detail here, this can only be applied to mature Christians. Paul speaking of them Said that:

1. Have tasted of the heavenly gift.
2. Have handled powers of the world to come.

It's also know as the Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Trampling on the blood of the Son of Man (now like I said before, if you didn't know much on Jewish history and their blood covenant practices, you can't understand this).

Just the same way I don't have the time to teach you on paradise. Because I knew you wouldn't understand it anyways.

Jeromejnr:


BTW. When Jesus said on the cross to that thief "Today you shall be with me in paradise". Well, that day, did Jesus go to heaven or hell?

If you can't answer this question then you don't even know what we have been talking about all along.

That's scripture.

Yes he went to hell. I never doubted that... read my post. I believe you when you said a good part of hell (I only pointed out to you that some who hold similar view as yours don't). That good part of hell is what I chose to call purgatory (stemming from what Christ does for the people found therein... purge or cleanse (you actually acknowledged that)) My confusion is you saying that the place is now closed for business. No customers no more. Where did the bible say that?

dmandy:
Sounds to me like you believe in history... think we are on a similar page. So for you to understand somethings in the bible you need to go to history... why then do we differ? why then do we quarrel amongst ourselves.

As for you the sin that lead unto death.. you have given me example. Pray thee tell me one example of sin that leads not unto death. And I will believe you and your video. Just one.

Well I know one in real life. But I want our discussions to be based only on scriptures. (Kenneth Hagin even shared an experience of a vision the Lord gave him on that).

Cut long story short

1. Angel Gabriel speaking to Daniel on the apostacy of how many will fall away in the last days..

2. Hebrews 6:6 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

3. Those who receive the mark of the beast.

e.t.c.

plaetton:
The question should be : Can any imaginary person hear your prayers?

Well, it depends on you.
It depends on when and what you want to claim as Victory of answered prayers.

You see, in la la land, that's the beauty and advantage of praying to imaginary beings, to, among other things, protect you from other imaginary beings.

You have the rare advantage to declare Victory WHENEVER IT SUITS YOU.

Therefore, prayers to Mary, Jesus, yahweh, the toothfairy, Santa Claus, etc, are effective as soon as you claim the success.

dmandy:


Yes he went to hell. I never doubted that... read my post. I believe you when you said a good part of hell (I only pointed out to you that some who hold similar view as yours don't). That good part of hell is what I chose to call purgatory (stemming from what Christ does for the people found therein... purge or cleanse (you actually acknowledged that)) My confusion is you saying that the place is now closed for business. No customers no more. Where did the bible say that?

Becuase the cleansing one needed to be able to go to heaven has already been done.

How

1. By Jesus blood.

2. Jesus told His disciples "You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you." John 15:3.

So whats the point of cleansing in "purgatory" again. That's why now it says "It is appointed that after a man dies, next is judgment" no cleansing or whatever.

Look at this scriptures:

When you ascended to the heights, you led a crowd of captives. Ps 68:18.

Therefore it says, "WHEN HE ASCENDED ON HIGH, HE LED CAPTIVE A HOST OF CAPTIVES, AND HE GAVE GIFTS TO MEN." 9(Now this expression, "He ascended," what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth?… Eph 4:8

Captives where those in what you call purgatory.

Jeromejnr:


Becuase the cleansing one needed to be able to go to heaven has already been done.

How

1. By Jesus blood.

2. Jesus told His disciples "You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you." John 15:3.

So whats the point of cleansing in "purgatory" again. That's why now it says "It is appointed that after a man dies, next is judgment" no cleansing or whatever.

Look at this scriptures:

When you ascended to the heights, you led a crowd of captives. Ps 68:18.

Therefore it says, "WHEN HE ASCENDED ON HIGH, HE LED CAPTIVE A HOST OF CAPTIVES, AND HE GAVE GIFTS TO MEN." 9(Now this expression, "He ascended," what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth?… Eph 4:8

Captives where those in what you call purgatory.

Thanks for taking time to explain all these.

Surely when Christ ascended he liberated the captives and gave gifts to all men (mind you both the rebellious) according to that passage. What gift could have been given to the rebellious. Again what was Paul still suffering for and saying he is suffering them to make up for Christ death. Did Christ death demand another attachment. How do you explain this 'Now I rejoice in what I am suffering for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church'? You will agree with me that something definitely is not lacking in Christ afflictions only that sometimes people choose to be rebellious.

Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them. Ps 68:18

dmandy:



Thanks for taking time to explain all these.

Surely when Christ ascended he liberated the captives and gave gifts to all men (mind you both the rebellious) according to that passage. What gift could have been given to the rebellious. Again what was Paul still suffering for and saying he is suffering them to make up for Christ death. Did Christ death demand another attachment. How do you explain this 'Now I rejoice in what I am suffering for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church'? You will agree with me that something definitely is not lacking in Christ afflictions only that sometimes people choose to be rebellious.

Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them. Ps 68:18

The gifts talked about there was not for those who where been taking up to heaven but for the Christians on the earth.

This gifts where ministry gifts. Look at verse 11&12 of that Eph 4. For eqping of saint for the work the Lord has for them on the earth.

Secondly, Paul suffered or labored he said till Christ be formed in them. The goal of Christianity is for us to be Christlike. If you noticed he constantly had a problem with Christians being fleshly and rebellious.

At one point he said "I am afraid for you, lest I have labored in vain". What is lacking in Christ afflictions is:

1. Remember we are the body of Christ. We are His hands and feet.

2. One part has been fulfilled by Jesus I.e providing salvation. Now our own part (what is lacking) is our own ministry or contribution to bring souls to that salvation. We are called to suffer together with the Lord carrying our cross. And when we are involved in our own ministry there is a particular suffering to it or we call it carrying your own cross. When we as the body of Christ do that, we are fulfilling that which is lacking.

@Jeromejnr,

The people in Rev 6:10 who knew that God hadn't avenged their blood on the inhabitants of the earth...

Were they also in your 'Abraham's bossom' or 'prison' or 'paradise' which you said has vanished?

Or were they in heaven, in which you said people are unaware of happenings on earth?

Or were they in another place that you are yet to manufacture?

Jeromejnr:


The gifts talked about there was not for those who where been taking up to heaven but for the Christians on the earth.

This gifts where ministry gifts. Look at verse 11&12 of that Eph 4. For eqping of saint for the work the Lord has for them on the earth.

Secondly, Paul suffered or labored he said till Christ be formed in them. The goal of Christianity is for us to be Christlike. If you noticed he constantly had a problem with Christians being fleshly and rebellious.

At one point he said "I am afraid for you, lest I have labored in vain". What is lacking in Christ afflictions is:

1. Remember we are the body of Christ. We are His hands and feet.

2. One part has been fulfilled by Jesus I.e providing salvation. Now our own part (what is lacking) is our own ministry or contribution to bring souls to that salvation. We are called to suffer together with the Lord carrying our cross. And when we are involved in our own ministry there is a particular suffering to it or we call it carrying your own cross. When we as the body of Christ do that, we are fulfilling that which is lacking.

Now if I am saved (by death of Christ on the cross) of course I am in friendship with Him having accepted him. And if for some reason I fail short of fulfilling that which is lacking at any particular point. Do you think I am guilty of sin?

clans:
Last time I checked yes they all do...

Pls I'd like to know how you checked.

italo:
@Jeromejnr,

The people in Rev 6:10 who knew that God hadn't avenged their blood on the inhabitants of the earth...

Were they also in your 'Abraham's bossom' or 'prison' or 'paradise' which you said has vanished?

Or were they in heaven, in which you said people are unaware of happenings on earth?

Or were they in another place that you are yet to manufacture?

My brother is painful when these men see the truth and try to cover it. He admitted that hell 'was' of two parts (suffering part and prison part) but have vanished into thin air.

They won't believe the truth, yet they won't let you rest who believe...

Why don't you talk to God about it? That should be a good check if it bothers you. I'm sure He will clarify it. Or better still 'put Him to a test, He allows that. Mal 3:10

BOWOTO:
Pls I'd like to know how you checked.

italo:
@Jeromejnr,

The people in Rev 6:10 who knew that God hadn't avenged their blood on the inhabitants of the earth...

Were they also in your 'Abraham's bossom' or 'prison' or 'paradise' which you said has vanished?

Or were they in heaven, in which you said people are unaware of happenings on earth?

Or were they in another place that you are yet to manufacture?

Haha.

1. That scripture is deeper than you tink. Remember how God told Cain that his brothers blood was crying from the ground? Ponder on that. (Go through that scripture you would see they even talked of their blood).

2. We see the story of a woman with a child and a dragon (Rev 12). Now if I were to ask you you would obviously say it was Mary and the child was Jesus. (True.) But if you noticed that event came after the Seventh and final Trumpet.

So what is my point?

Because the Martyrs were seen in Rev 6 crying out vengeance doesn't mean that's what is going on In heaven right now. The saints in heaven will on the last day come to know happenings on the earth (that's when Jesus comes back). Because they will all be judged and giving rewards and also receive their new bodies. And then in turn those appointed will help in judging angels and the dead both from hell and those who were Still alive on earth at that time. (These are all in scriptures and not far fetched). Do your own studies and don't let any man deceive you with religion.

But for now, don't waste you time praying to any saint.

dmandy:


My brother is painful when these men see the truth and try to cover it. He admitted that hell 'was' of two parts (suffering part and prison part) but have vanished into thin air.

They won't believe the truth, yet they won't let you rest who believe...

So enlighten us with scriptures,

What is the truth?.

Jeromejnr:


So enlighten us with scriptures,

What is the truth?.

You skipped my question in #41. Sorry because I used the term think ok did the bible say that I am guilty of sin?

dmandy:

Now if I am saved (by death of Christ on the cross) of course I am in friendship with Him having accepted him. And if for some reason I fail short of fulfilling that which is lacking at any particular point. Do you think I am guilty of sin?

OLAADEGBU:
Can Mary hear our prayers? Can Mary or any of the dead saints hear our prayers?

Below is your own quote in the other thread:

Each person will have feelings, thoughts, and abilities that exist in eternity.

In fact, Luke 16:19–31 offers an example of human capabilities in the afterlife. Lazarus is in paradise in eternal joy, while the rich man is in torment in hell (called "Hades" ). The rich man has feelings, can talk, and has the ability to remember, think, and reason.

I also gave Rev 6:10 where people are aware of what is happening on earth...

Yet you want Jesus to come to earth again and tell you that Saints are aware of and can hear our prayers on earth...

dmandy:
Why don't you talk to God about it? That should be a good check if it bothers you. I'm sure He will clarify it. Or better still 'put Him to a test, He allows that. Mal 3:10

Now this is an issue. Not being able to divide the word of truth.

Now you said God allows us to put Him to the test.

But when Satan tempted Jesus to jump from the cliff, what was Jesus response?

My point: Yes in some areas we are allowed to test but not all. This brings us back to our discussion of how you said killing an ant is a sin but not unto death. And also that purgatory issue.

This is why one needs the Holy Spirit in interpreting scriptures.

Jeromejnr:


Haha.

1. That scripture is deeper than you tink. Remember how God told Cain that his brothers blood was crying from the ground? Ponder on that. (Go through that scripture you would see they even talked of their blood).

2. We see the story of a woman with a child and a dragon (Rev 12). Now if I were to ask you you would obviously say it was Mary and the child was Jesus. (True.) But if you noticed that event came after the Seventh and final Trumpet.

So what is my point?

Because the Martyrs were seen in Rev 6 crying out vengeance doesn't mean that's what is going on In heaven right now. The saints in heaven will on the last day come to know happenings on the earth (that's when Jesus comes back). Because they will all be judged and giving rewards and also receive their new bodies. And then in turn those appointed will help in judging angels and the dead both from hell and those who were Still alive on earth at that time. (These are all in scriptures and not far fetched). Do your own studies and don't let any man deceive you with religion.

But for now, don't waste you time praying to any saint.

You didn't answer my question.

Where are those people in Rev 6:10?

And please, for anything you say, show me where the Bible says it.

Jeromejnr:


Now this is an issue. Not being able to divide the word of truth.

Now you said God allows us to put Him to the test.

But when Satan tempted Jesus to jump from the cliff, what was Jesus response?

My point: Yes in some areas we are allowed to test but not all. This brings us back to our discussion of how you said killing an ant is a sin but not unto death. And also that purgatory issue.

This is why one needs the Holy Spirit in interpreting scriptures.

Ok God allows in some but not in all. But He does allow it abi. Continue. Didn't the bible say thou shall not kill...didn't the bible say he looked at all that He created and they were good. Why did God save the ants on that great destruction day of Noah since they were useless and should be killed. kill is kill

dmandy:


You skipped my question in #41. Sorry because I used the term think ok did the bible say that I am guilty of sin?

Don't understand the question.

But you need to understand Christianity is of the heart. Even if one mistakenly commits a sin that person cannot be condemned or pronounced guilty. Because God sees your heart that you ate making effort stop practising that sin.

But if you willingly go on sining after the knowledge of the truth like the apostle says then when that person dies in that sin, it's obvious the person loved the sin more than he did God. And as a result Jesus said "many will say unto me that day Lord, Lord...." Those where Christians not unbleleivers.

So if there was a purgatory and they can see the spritual realm and the hell That awaits them if they are not cleansed. Why don't they just believe and get cleansed. why will there still be some that Jesus will still say depart from Me on that day?

Or are people that stubborn that after seeing hell they will still want to go in there.

Thinking logically now.

dmandy:
Why don't you talk to God about it? That should be a good check if it bothers you. I'm sure He will clarify it. Or better still 'put Him to a test, He allows that. Mal 3:10

I talk to God and he answers me, me I don't know of the saints you're talking about.

Jeromejnr:


They don't hear. Only God does.

Heaven is a perfect place, no believer in heaven is permitted to know of sufferings and heartaches and pains that go on in the earth.

Jeromejnr:

The saints in heaven will on the last day come to know happenings on the earth (that's when Jesus comes back).

So suddenly, you're making a U-turn...

Some hours ago, no believer in heaven could be permitted to know happenings on earth...because heaven is a perfect place.

Now, saints in heaven can know happenings on earth...i guess heaven is no more perfect abi?

italo:


You didn't answer my question.

Where are those people in Rev 6:10?

And please, for anything you say, show me where the Bible says it.

Okay Sir,

Actually, you guys should first of all provide scriptures for praying to saints then we can start from there.

If you even want to talk of those Martyrs, then there is a diff BTW praying to them and them Crying out in that scripture. Did they say anyone was praying to them that's why they were crying out.

That was a one time event. You mean to tell me that instead of enjoying the glories of heaven that right now they are busy crying. And look at verse eleven of that scripture.

What does that tell you. They are the souls that where recently beheaded in the tribulation and just made heaven that was why white robes were given to them.

Or have they been in heaven all this time and were naked?.

italo:




So suddenly, you're making a U-turn...

Some hours ago, no believer in heaven could be permitted to know happenings on earth...because heaven is a perfect place.

Now, saints in heaven can know happenings on earth...i guess heaven is no more perfect abi?

Comprhension broda, comprehension.

I think ive answered your question.

Jeromejnr:


Don't understand the question.

But you need to understand Christianity is of the heart. Even if one mistakenly commits a sin that person cannot be condemned or pronounced guilty. Because God sees your heart that you ate making effort stop practising that sin.

But if you willingly go on sining after the knowledge of the truth like the apostle says then when that person dies in that sin, it's obvious the person loved the sin more than he did God. And as a result Jesus said "many will say unto me that day Lord, Lord...." Those where Christians not unbleleivers.

So if there was a purgatory and they can see the spritual realm and the hell That awaits them if they are not cleansed. Why don't they just believe and get cleansed. why will there still be some that Jesus will still say depart from Me on that day?

Or are people that stubborn that after seeing hell they will still want to go in there.

Thinking logically now.

Who told you purgatory is for unbelievers?

italo:


Who told you purgatory is for unbelievers?

Your broda up there told me.
And show us where purgatory is in the bible.

dmandy:


Ok God allows in some but not in all. But He does allow it abi. Continue. Didn't the bible say thou shall not kill...didn't the bible say he looked at all that He created and they were good. Why did God save the ants on that great destruction day of Noah since they were useless and should be killed. kill is kill

Lol funny dude.

Your own premise is based on assumptions.

I did? Why lie? I never said its for unbelievers. I rather equated it to what you called 'good part of hell' where spirits who still needs cleansing are cleansed by Jesus. Below is your post about the good part of hell.

Jeromejnr:

Abraham's Bosom was also known as paradise. Go do a study on it.

Jeromejnr:

Your broda up there told me.
And show us where purgatory is in the bible.

Jeromejnr:


Your broda up there told me.
And show us where purgatory is in the bible.

Quote where he said purgatory is for unbelievers.

And we Catholics don't believe that every word used in Christianity must be explicitly written in the Bible.

It is you who believes that that is finding it hard defending your proclamations with the Bible.

E.g: where does the Bible say that people in heaven are unaware of happenings on earth?

Where does the Bible say that purgatory must be written verbatim in the bible for it to be true?

Jeromejnr:


Lol funny dude.

Your own premise is based on assumptions.

What did I assume? That God said thou shall not kill? (What did God say you should not kill? Why assume its only human beings if its not explicitly put. Now who is assuming.

Did I also assume that God saw that all He created were good.God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning--the sixth day. Gen 1:31. He never said all (except the ant were good) unless you assume so?

Jeromejnr:


Okay Sir,

Actually, you guys should first of all provide scriptures for praying to saints then we can start from there.

If you even want to talk of those Martyrs, then there is a diff BTW praying to them and them Crying out in that scripture. Did they say anyone was praying to them that's why they were crying out.

That was a one time event. You mean to tell me that instead of enjoying the glories of heaven that right now they are busy crying. And look at verse eleven of that scripture.

What does that tell you. They are the souls that where recently beheaded in the tribulation and just made heaven that was why white robes were given to them.

Or have they been in heaven all this time and were naked?.

I'm confused. But you said no believers in heaven can know the happenings on earth.

Were these martyrs in heaven unbelievers?



To answer your question: I don't know when they got to heaven. You're the one who told me they had just got to heaven.