Ok we both agree on that.
Now that we got that out of the way, what is your opinion on the following questions that I asked previously:
But even if something or someone created the universe, what do you say are the implications? Does this mean that it is important that we revere that something or someone? That something or someone obviously doesn't give a shi*t about humans because he/she/it has gone into hiding since he/she/it created the universe.

buggaboo:
Ok let me retrace my steps.
I am not sure that science will ever explain everything.
Neither are you.

Shall we both agree then?

Antiparticle:
Ok we both agree on that.
Now that we got that out of the way, what is your opinion on the following questions that I asked previously:
But even if something or someone created the universe, what do you say are the implications? Does this mean that it is important that we revere that something or someone? That something or someone obviously doesn't give a shi*t about humans because he/she/it has gone into hiding since he/she/it created the universe.

Well, it depends on the purpose of creation.
If you don't the purpose of something, it's existence wont make sense to you.

Please clarify or rephrase, I don't understand.

buggaboo:
Well, it depends on the purpose of creation.
If you don't the purpose of something, it's existence wont make sense to you.

Antiparticle:
Please clarify or rephrase, I don't understand.

First, everything around where you are right now has a purpose for it's creation.

If we have a creator, it implies that we were all created for a purpose no matter how small or seemingly insignificant it is.

That you feel the creator is in hiding, doesn't mean that other people do not have access to him.

Oh this is where you lost me. There is no evidence whatsoever that a creator exists so I can't fully engage in the thought experiment of a creator.

But even if I were to try to participate in such thought experiment, how do you know that said creator has a purpose for our creation? Not everything is done for a purpose so it is a logical leap to assume that there was a purpose. What if this creator was so daft that he/she/it created the universe by accident?

buggaboo:
First, everything around where you are right now has a purpose for it's creation.

If we have a creator, it implies that we were all created for a purpose no matter how small or seemingly insignificant it is.

That you feel the creator is in hiding, doesn't mean that other people do not have access to him.

Antiparticle:
On this is where you lost me. There is no evidence whatsoever that a creator exists so I can't fullt engage in the thought experiment of a creator.

But even if I were to try to participate in such thought experiment, how do you know that said creator has a purpose for our creation? Not everything is done for a purpose so it is a logical leap to assume that there was a purpose. What if this creator was so daft that he/she/it created the universe by accident?

I only replied your question which was based on the assumption of a creator.

As you can see, there are a lot of unknowns if you base your belief on empirical evidence, and that's why I don't understand why atheists believe that the world was definitely not created.

I am a christian and my belief came as a result of personal experiences which I cannot prove to you empirically. That's why I have kept it purely logical on this thread.

Ok I respect your position. I very recently used to be a very strong passionate Christian (I had been for over a decade, and grew up in a Christian home), and I couldn't have imagined that I would stop believing in the existence of Yahweh. I know most of the bible very well, I used to start and lead bible study groups, I used to have visions, I used to be ascetic about indulgences, I used to deeply seek the heart of God, etc.

But here I am now. It was all a mirage.

When I realized that Christianity was such a sham, I was in a state of panic for a number of weeks, afraid of what I had just found out. I desperately hoped that I was wrong. A number of jarring observations and critical reading of history of the past 3,000 years brought me to this place. I also carefully evaluated the existence of miracles, the answering of prayers, the arbitrary nature of Christian doctrines, the absence of justice in the world over the ages, the inability of the Christian doctrine to adequately address the topic of suffering, the use of fear and violence to extort followership and compliance, the use of Christianity to enslave and kill, the questionable authenticity and accuracy of the resurrection story, etc. This is how I ended up getting here. It was against my will, but I got here even after reading a lot of theological books by Christian authors (CS Lewis, Ravi Zaccharias, and the like) I still respect till today. I watched lots of atheist vs theologian YouTube debates, I tried hard to keep believing, but I am not one to be intellectually dishonest to myself. The evidence was heavily stacked against Christianity, and by extension any form of theism.

Most atheists actually don't claim that they are 100% sure that the universe was not created by a creator. Most atheists just claim that there is no evidence that the universe was created by a creator, and therefore asserting the existence of a creator raises more questions than answers.

My position is: if a creator exists, it is unfair for him/her/it to demand my worship because he/she/it supposedly created me to be a thinking being yet refuses to provide evidence for his/her/its existence. I also conclude (as a former Christian) that if Yahweh is a supposedly loving God, why would he/she/it damn me to hell because of unbelief without any shred of evidence for his/her/its existence. This leads me to conclude that Yahweh either doesn't exist or is a psychopath... I wouldn't worship either.

The existence of Yahweh/spirits/the devil is a hypothesis for which there is no evidence (even after plenty efforts by theists to "prove" said existence), therefore there's no point worrying about his/her/its existence (the same way there's no need worrying about hypothetical ten-headed snakes with fifteen legs). I am a naturalist.

buggaboo:
I only replied your question which was based on the assumption of a creator.

As you can see, there are a lot of unknowns if you base your belief on empirical evidence, and that's why I don't understand why atheists believe that the world was definitely not created.

I am a christian and my belief came as a result of personal experiences which I cannot prove to you empirically. That's why I have kept it purely logical on this thread.

buggaboo:


You have clearly run out of points.
I am very disappointed in you. Actually thought you were going to WOW me with some mind blowing logic.

For your type, the simplest, commonsensical logic is the one gives you the sharpest dose of cognitive dissonance.

If god doesn't have a creator, then shouldn't that ring an alarm in your head, and puncture your silly arguments that whatever EXISTS must have a creator?

buggaboo:


I am happy you mentioned a likelyhood value.
It means that there is a margin for error.

As a scientist, you cannot extrapolate indefinitely when you are dealing with a lot of unknowns. Your model is bound to break down at some point.

Yes, it takes some faith to suggest that because science has explained somethings, science will explain everything.


To explain my point about something not bound by the laws of its own creation.
Imagine that there is an advanced version of the Angry Birds game in which the birds have been programmed to make decisions by themselves.

If the birds are programmed to make decisions for themselves, then you should realize that their freewill is compromised. Their choices have already been coded for prior to their creation.

buggaboo:


Ok let me retrace my steps.
I am not sure that science will ever explain everything.
Neither are you.

Shall we both agree then?

Why are u particular about proving that science cannot explain everything? What do you want to prove with that? How does that help in your God did it belief?
Haven't science helped enough? If science is imperfect, does that make it your enemy? Science never try for u?

Antiparticle:
Ok I respect your position. I very recently used to be a very strong passionate Christian (I had been for over a decade, and grew up in a Christian home), and I couldn't have imagined that I would stop believing in the existence of Yahweh. I know most of the bible very well, I used to start and lead bible study groups, I used to have visions, I used to be ascetic about indulgences, I used to deeply seek the heart of God, etc.

But here I am now. It was all a mirage.

When I realized that Christianity was such a sham, I was in a state of panic for a number of weeks, afraid of what I had just found out. I desperately hoped that I was wrong. A number of jarring observations and critical reading of history of the past 3,000 years brought me to this place. I also carefully evaluated the existence of miracles, the answering of prayers, the arbitrary nature of Christian doctrines, the absence of justice in the world over the ages, the inability of the Christian doctrine to adequately address the topic of suffering, the use of fear and violence to extort followership and compliance, the use of Christianity to enslave and kill, the questionable authenticity and accuracy of the resurrection story, etc. This is how I ended up getting here. It was against my will, but I got here even after reading a lot of theological books by Christian authors (CS Lewis, Ravi Zaccharias, and the like) I still respect till today. I watched lots of atheist vs theologian YouTube debates, I tried hard to keep believing, but I am not one to be intellectually dishonest to myself. The evidence was heavily stacked against Christianity, and by extension any form of theism.

Most atheists actually don't claim that they are 100% sure that the universe was not created by a creator. Most atheists just claim that there is no evidence that the universe was created by a creator, and therefore the existence of a creator is very unlikely and unimportant.

My position is: if a creator exists, it is unfair for him/her/it to demand my worship because he/she/it supposedly created me to be a thinking being yet refuses to provide evidence for his/her/its existence. I also conclude (as a former Christian) that if Yahweh is a supposedly loving God, why would he/she/it damn me to hell because of unbelief without any shred of evidence for his/her/its existence. This leads me to conclude that Yahweh either doesn't exist or is a psychopath... I wouldn't worship either.

The existence of Yahweh/spirits/the devil is a hypothesis for which there is no evidence (even after plenty efforts by theists to "prove" said existence), therefore there's no point worrying about his/her/its existence (the same way there's no need worrying about hypothetical ten-headed snakes with fifteen legs). I am a naturalist.

I love this.

Op, I think u need to read this and get your mind working. U will never regret trust me.