malvisguy212:
No muslim is able to defend the quran?

Visitor700:


He didn't inspire the biblical authors.



Show me solid proof from the bible that these 2 statements are not contradictory.

Paul says:
Faith without works saves
(Romans 3:28)

James says:
Faith without works does not save
(James 2:14)



Allah said: “[And remember] When God took a Covenant from those who were given the Scripture: [size=14]You shall make it known and clear to mankind, and you shall not to hide it[/size] but they flung it behind their backs, and purchased with it a miserable gain! How evil was that which they purchased!”
(Quran 3:187)

“Say: 'O People of the Book! [size=14]exceed not in your religion the bounds [of what is proper], trespassing beyond the truth, nor follow the vain desires of people who went astray in times gone by, who misled many, and strayed [themselves] from the straight path."[/size]
(Quran 5:77)

“Then [size=14]woe to those who write the book with their own hands and then say: ‘This is from God’, to traffic with it for a miserable price. Woe to them for what their hands do write and for the gain they make thereby.”[/size]
(Quran 2:79)

Visitor700:


Yes. But Paul and James did not compliment each other. In Genesis 15:6 Paul says:

"Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness."

[size=14]Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers/size]
—We have here the germ of the doctrine of free justification. Abram was both a holy man and one who proved his faith by his works; but nevertheless the inspired narrator inserts this reflection, not after the history of the offering of Isaac, but in the account of this vision, where all that Abram did was to believe, and for that belief’s sake was accounted righteous before God.

From the Bible Commentaries of Ellicott, the inspired writter, paul, did not deem Abraham "Justified by works" when he offered Isaac on the altar, but rather he maintained that Abraham was Justified only on account of his belief.



Yes, it does. In the Quran, Paul and his likes are known by their fruit.

Allah says: [size=14]"Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say:"This is from God,"[/size] to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby."
(The Noble Quran, 2:79) "

Tell me, didn't paul write 13/8 books of the New Testament?

Allah also says: [size=14]"Who can be more wicked than one who inventeth a lie against God, or saith, "I have received inspiration," when he hath received none, or (again) who saith, "I can reveal the like of what God hath revealed"?[/size] If thou couldst but see how the wicked (do fare) in the flood of confusion at death! - the angels stretch forth their hands, (saying),"Yield up your souls: this day shall ye receive your reward,- a penalty of shame, for that ye used to tell lies against God, and scornfully to reject of His signs!"
(The Noble Quran, 6:93)

Didn't he also claim that God inspired his preaching?

Visitor700:


Re-read my previous comments. My argument isn't about salvation under the dispensation of mosiac law.



Tell me, who said this?

[size=13]"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets: I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill. "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the Law, until all is accomplished. Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and so teaches other shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven: but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."[/size]
(Matthew 5:17-19)

*Jesus made it clear that the law was still in force (Matthew 5:17-20)

*He commanded people to keep the law
(Luke 17:12-14, Mark 10:17-19, John 8:3-7)

*He also observed the law himself
(Galatians 4:4, Psalms 40:7-9, Hebrews 10:7)



As i mentioned previously, by rebuking the devil in His Name:

When a rebuke is uttered in the name of the Lord, it ceases the activity of the thing or person being rebuked. For example, the winds and waves ceased when Jesus rebuked them and satan had to release Moses’ body to Prince Michael. This is confirmed in the scriptures:

Isa 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Rom 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me and every tongue shall confess to God.

[/b]

Go and read my comments carefully again. I said your quotations were out of context.

[/b]

rather, Allah's promise has held true. The proof is there for all to see.
There's [size=13]only one version of the Quran[/size] in the whole world.
The prophet (peace be upon him) recommended that [size=13]the recitation of the whole Qur’an should be completed once in a every month.[/size] It is also recited in the daily prayers.
[size=13]It has been preserved in the language that it was revealed in arabic.[/size]
The crusading missionaries of the Middle Ages, the Protestants and free-thinkers of the so-called Enlightenment all agree that it is in the same condition that it was revealed1400 years ago.



Reread what i wrote. I already expounded on this issue.

Visitor700:


I intended to write down [Romans 4:3] but mistakingly wrote down [Genesis 15:6]. Romans 4:3 and Genesis 15:6 both carry exactly the same message though.

You said that paul was teaching the unsaved man how to reconcile with God but Paul's teaching on salvation has always been by faith alone regardless of the audience circumstance.

In Romans 11:6 [NKJV], Paul reiterated to those who were saved by faith in christ.

[size=13]And if by grace[/size]
[refers to the remnant saved at this "present time" in verse 5],
[size=13]then is it no more of works:[/size]
[They are no longer saved by works like the 7000 Jews in verse 4]
[size=13] otherwise grace is no more grace.[/size]
[If you mix works with grace then salvation is not only by grace]
[size=13]But if it be of works,[/size]
[If salvation in this "present time" is of works,
[size=13]then is it no more grace:[/size]
[then it can't be of only grace]
[size=13] otherwise work is no more work.[/size]
[If you mix grace with works then salvation is not only by works].

We derive 3 things from this verse.

1. Salvation is by grace to the exclusion of works.
2. Salvation used to be of works but is now "no more of works."
3. Grace and works are exclusive of each other.



"Fulfill the Law" has many connotations. According to a biblical scholar, David Bivin, it means to properly interpret the Torah so that people can abide by the law.

"Jesus fulfilled the law" means he was clarifying the true intent of that law. For example, in Matthew 5:28 Jesus said:

"But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

From the verse above, Jesus clarified that the violation of the law against adultery includes gazing lustfully at a woman.



Rather, the bible reveals that God knew the law was not impossible to keep.

"And said unto them, [size=13]Ye have kept all that Moses the servant of the LORD commanded you[/size] , and have obeyed my voice in all that I commanded you."
[Josh. 22:2]



They were also saved by keeping the law.

Those who obeyed were promised mercy, forgiveness and life [Ex. 20:6 , Ex. 34:7 ; Lev. 18:5 ; Psa. 103:3 , Psa. 130:4; Eze. 20:11 ; Dan. 9:9 ]

And those who disobeyed; death, destruction and Hell [Ex. 32:32-33 ; Lev. 5:17 ; Deut. 29:20 , Deut. 32:22 ].

Visitor700:


I only pointed that out to show how easy it is to switch their citations since they both carry exactly the same message.



If you are honest, then why did you ignore other places where paul preached the doctrine of justification by faith to those who have been saved?



Are you challenging the interpretation of "Jesus fulfilled the law" by the renown bible scholar, david bivin
Meeting you face to face will not convince me to favor your interpretation of the phrase over his.

malvisguy212:
.

promisechuks:

This muslims are so bankrupt in thinking, logic and reasoning.

vzkpswaqnkhgytd:

How so?

malvisguy212:
Muslims talk often about the many
contradictions in the Bible. The number
of contradictions vary depending on
whom you are talking to. The principle
of non-contradiction has been elevated
to the status of an absolute criterion,
capable of being applied by human
beings in judging the authenticity of
God’s word. But the Christian cannot
agree that the principle of non-
contradiction is given to men as a criterion by which they are to judge God’s word. It is this criterion which the
Muslims have imposed upon the
discussion of revelation.


The Bible is not simply one book compiled by one man as the Muslims
claim for their Qur’an, but a compilation
of 66 books, written by more than 40
authors, over a period of 1500 years! For that reason Christians have always
maintained that the entire Bible shows
the imprint of human hands. Evidence of this can be found in the variety of
human languages used, the varying
styles of writing, the differences in the
author’s intellects and temperaments. Thought the muslims claimed the quran is sent down from heaven but there are MANY verses show the imprint of human hand in it.

DEFINITION OF INSPIRATION.
In 2 Timothy 3:16, we are told that all
Scripture is inspired. The word used for
inspiration is theopneustos which means“God-breathed,” implying that what was written had its origin in God Himself. In 2Peter 1:21 we read that the writers were“carried along” by God. Thus, God used each writer, including his personality to accomplish a divinely authoritative work, for God cannot inspire error.

The Bible must be the invention either of good men or angels, bad men or devils, or of God. However, it was not
written by good men, because good men would not tell lies by saying ‘Thus saith the Lord;’ it was not written by bad men because they would not write about doing good duty, while condemning sin,and themselves to hell; thus, it must be written by divine inspiration”

HOW DOES GOD INSPIRE HIS WRITERS?
How does God inspire the writers? Does
He simply move the writers by
challenging their heart to reach new
heights, much like we find in the works of Shakespeare, find in the works of
Shakespeare, which is human literary
masterpieces? Or does that which He
inspire contain the words of God-along
with myths, mistakes and legends, thus
creating a book in which portions of the
Word of God can be found, along with
those of finite and fallible men? Or are
the scriptures the infallible Word of God
in their entirety? In other words, how,
Muslims will ask, is this inspiration
carried out? Does God use mechanical
dictation, similar to that which we find
claimed for the Qur’an, or does He use
the writers own minds and experiences?

ANSWER:
The simple answer is that God’s control
was always with them in their writings,
such that the Bible is nothing more than
“THE WORD OF GOD IN THE WORD OF MEN”. This means that God utilized the culture and
conventions of his penman’s ,God controls in His sovereign
providence. Thus history must be treated
as history, poetry as poetry, hyperbole
and metaphor as hyperbole and
metaphor, generalization and
approximation as what they are, and so
forth.

We are fully aware that the Christian
criteria for revelation is not acceptable to Muslims, as it is in seeming conflict with their own.Yet,by simply measuring the Bible against the‘sent down’ concept which they claim for their Qur’an, Muslims condemn themselves of duplicity, since they demand of the New Testament that which they do not
demand of the previous revelations, the
Taurat and Zabuur, though both are
revered as equally inspired revelations
by all Muslims. Muslims believe that
Moses WROTE THE TAURAT AND DAVID THE ZABUUR . However, neither claimed to have received their revelations by a
means of A' sent down’ transmission. So why insist on such for the New Testament, especially since the
document makes no such claim itself?

PROPHET WITHOUT PROVED?
Left unsaid is the glaring irony that the
claim for the sent down revelation for the Qur’an comes from one source alone, the man to which it was supposedly revealed, Muhammad. Yet there are no external witnesses both before or at the time who can corroborate Muhammad’s testimony.
Not even miracles are provided to
substantiate his claims, nor are there any known documents of such a Qur’an from the century in which it is claimed to have been revealed.

What Muslims must understand is that
Christians have always maintained that
the Word of God, the Bible, was indeed
written by men, but that these men were always under the direct inspiration of the Holy Spirit (2 Peter 1:20-21).
Whereas the Qur’an is alleged to be free
of any human element, God in the Bible
deliberately chose to reveal His Word
through individuals who were inspired
prophets and apostles, so that His Word
would not only b conveyed to humanity correctly, and comprehensively but
would be communicated to their
understanding and powers of
comprehension as well. This the Qur’an
CANNOT do if it has no human element, as is generally alleged.

malvisguy212:
read the op and use your sense.

mustymatic:

Ashamed of your SHAMEFUL CLAIMS?
NOPE.

“And dispute ye not with the people of
the book but say: We believe in the
revelation which has come down to us
and that which came down to you.”

What you fail to understand is that Muslims never question that Jesus receive the Gospel (Injeel). He received it like other prophets received theirs before him.
But the authors who wrote the Bible weren't around when he was, didn't see him, talked to him after some years thay come to claim that he said some contradicting things. even in modern literature this is not accepted. THIS is why even Christians invalidate some of the books, let alone Muslims

lordnicklaus:





Your mnemonic jargon called Qur'an says David was given Psalms whereas not all Psalms were written by him. Besides the Qur'an has Aramaic influences showing that it was copied from Christian Aramaic scriptures.

mustymatic:

Copied by who? someone who can't read or write? lol
laughing at the bolded

lordnicklaus:




The Arabic word translated as "illiterate" is the word "ummi" which also means one who has no insight of the past knowledge (former Holy Books) and not necessarily one who is unlettered cos' some Muslim scholars agree that Muhammad was learned but had no knowledge of the former Holy books (Torah and Berita khadasha [New Testament]). Your Qur'an says David was given the "Zabur" which means "Psalms" whereas not all Psalms were written by David. Some Psalms were by Asaph, some by Hezekiah, one by Moses, one by Habbakuk and one was probably by Samuel.

lordnicklaus:




The Arabic word translated as "illiterate" is the word "ummi" which also means one who has no insight of the past knowledge (former Holy Books) and not necessarily one who is unlettered cos' some Muslim scholars agree that Muhammad was learned but had no knowledge of the former Holy books (Torah and Berita khadasha [New Testament]). Your Qur'an says David was given the "Zabur" which means "Psalms" whereas not all Psalms were written by David. Some Psalms were by Asaph, some by Hezekiah, one by Moses, one by Habbakuk and one was probably by Samuel.

Visitor700:


Yes. But Paul and James did not compliment each other. In Genesis 15:6 Paul says:

"Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness."

[size=14]Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers/size]
—We have here the germ of the doctrine of free justification. Abram was both a holy man and one who proved his faith by his works; but nevertheless the inspired narrator inserts this reflection, not after the history of the offering of Isaac, but in the account of this vision, where all that Abram did was to believe, and for that belief’s sake was accounted righteous before God.

From the Bible Commentaries of Ellicott, the inspired writter, paul, did not deem Abraham "Justified by works" when he offered Isaac on the altar, but rather he maintained that Abraham was Justified only on account of his belief.



Yes, it does. In the Quran, Paul and his likes are known by their fruit.

Allah says: [size=14]"Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say:"This is from God,"[/size] to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby."
(The Noble Quran, 2:79) "

Tell me, didn't paul write 13/8 books of the New Testament?

Allah also says: [size=14]"Who can be more wicked than one who inventeth a lie against God, or saith, "I have received inspiration," when he hath received none, or (again) who saith, "I can reveal the like of what God hath revealed"?[/size] If thou couldst but see how the wicked (do fare) in the flood of confusion at death! - the angels stretch forth their hands, (saying),"Yield up your souls: this day shall ye receive your reward,- a penalty of shame, for that ye used to tell lies against God, and scornfully to reject of His signs!"
(The Noble Quran, 6:93)

Didn't he also claim that God inspired his preaching?

mustymatic:

He was unlettered which means he didn't read and copy from the Bible
Was it copied or not? Your Bible was written by many unknown men whose surnames are not known , nowhere in the world is that accepted. The quran as it is, unchanged since the time of Muhammad, the word of God, no one can change that. u can't say the same for the Bible, it has been edited, re-edited, re-re-edited, so ur argument is invalid.

And your statement that David didn't write all of psalms is not in the quran, the quran says David was given not "he wrote" so also the Gospel was given to Jesus and not "he wrote" get it right pls

lordnicklaus:





Lol!!!! Why then did Khalif Uthman ask for the Qur'an to be abrogated? An ancient Qur'an manuscript has been discovered in Yemen with differences from today's Qur'an. Even most Hadith writers quote strange Suras that are not even in the Qur'an. It shows that there was a different Qur'an and yet Muslims claim the Qur'an is one. You might be shocked to learn that the Qur'an you use is different from the ones other Muslims use in foreign countries.
I once read a Qur'an translation, a footnote where the translator made mention of another Qur'an that was translated by someone else as filled with translation errors.

bashbabe2:
Like someone said dont you and your cohorts never get tired. Sincerely you are so jobless and i would implore people not to reply to your posts.

It's so funny reading through because it's hard to ignore some ridiculous things you write. Maybe you need to pray more to that holy spirit of yours to direct you and your cohorts to stop the insults.
Islam is perfect, Muslims are not, just like you christians.
Why is it so hard for you to get that Allah sent all Prophets at a particular time to particular tribes, race,and our Prophet (SAW) was sent to all mankind. You are just wasting your time opening new threads, sincere advice is for you stop.because the only people that get worked up from the insults in your
comments is you and your kind ( as your Bible stated" by thier words you shall know them".

Islam is beautiful and perfect I tell you.does your Bible ask you to refrain from arguments and insulting and judging ? If you see Muslims doing wrong today Islam didn't teach them that. Muslims that follows the teachings of Allah(SWT) and the best of mankind the prophet (SAW) are nothing but people you would emulate and wish to be like .
There are bad christians,terrorist christians so as Muslims. That doesn't mean you should continue with your false accusations and quoting the Qur’an out of context or giving it your own meaning . Just take a minute to reflect a religion that accepts all other books, all other Prophets and Qur'an sent to clarify things you lots( christian and jews) use to argue or differ, Yet you still don't believe.
From Allah we came and To HIM we shall all return, we all will account for every single thing we said or did.

Just quit because it's clear you are just trying to be relevant but the only people you impress are your kind. Blind leading the blind.
May Allah in His infinite mercy have mercy on us all. My Islam teaches me never to be angry, or insults, argue, judge and pray for those who say things i don't like,even reply them with kind words . What does your Bible teaches you?