9jacrip:
@FolyKaze

@ Macof

@@@@

Ever thought of this excerpt:

Kutu Kutu Oba Ugbo

Osan gangan Obamakin

Obatala Oseremagbo


And relate(d) it to Yoruba hours of the day classification:

Aaro Kutu Kutu -- morning

Osan gan gan -- afternoon

Ah here's a point I've been trying to make. Osangangan and Obatala have relations

macof:


Aren't all Yoruba originally from Ife? or at least the culture began in Ife
I always imagined Ugbo as people at the outskirts of the Ife country, and they were subservient to Ife
Didn't Oduduwa's first encounter with them result from their terrorising Ife, such that Oduduwa engineered the victory of Ife?
I think this also brought him into prominence

Why would they terrorise Ife, if they were Ife
They seem to have already become a separate people organized into a separate nation during the attacks against Ife, probably left Ife many years before oduduwa And not during oduduwa

Indeed, Yoruba morphed in Ile-Ife.

I have been trying to solve the Ife/Ugbo/Moremi equation myself.

Yes, they were 'part' of the original occupants of Ile-Ife but keep in mind the town was not a single entity. It was a system of different hamlets with their own leaders opearing independently but the most power leader from any group assumed the lead role.

Oduduwa came, tried to snatch power with the help of Obameri who was also an original Ife group leader. Sides were formed - Oduduwa vs Obatala were the face of the opposing sides.

I believe Oduduwa's victory was what made the Ugbo leave. Maybe they were banished or as a sign of protest. Remember Obatala was made to vacate Ife also for sometime.

So yes, they left Ife after Oduduwa won the war but they started the chibok thing afterwards which extended into Obalufon/Ogun/Oranmiyan period.

I was told Moremi was a wife to one of them but I go with Oranmiyan because Moremi was from Offa (and still celebrated in Offa) and Offa was founded by an Oyo prince (Olofagangan).

But the question I'm faced withis, dis the kidnapping continue for centuries between Ogun/Obalufon 1&2/Oranmiyan's period? Since Oyo was founded in the 12//13th century and Offa was founded around 14th or 15th C?

^^^^ Christinsane on the loose.

estacyresource:
Faith Leaders Tell UN That Christian Persecution is the "Greatest Crises" on Earth Today

"One of the first people of the age to ever help persecuted Christians was the apostle Paul. Paul was a Jewish Believer. So as Jewish Believers it is part of our heritage and calling to speak out on behalf of those who are persecuted." -Rabbi Jonathan Cahn

(New York, NY) - At time when the persecution of Christians has reached "historic proportions," Rabbi Jonathan Cahn and other faith leaders will address the United Nations on Friday about what Cahn calls one of the "greatest crises in the modern age." (Photo via Charisma News)
...
http://chriistianityupdate..com/2015/04/faith-leaders-tell-un-that-christian.html

A Rabbi is standing up for Jesus, huh? Smart Jewish lobby - using Evangelical Christians as Zionist pawns since before the Intifada.

Pray with him, and end it with "in Jesus name" and watch his reaction.

isalegan2:


A Rabbi is standing up for Jesus, huh? Smart Jewish lobby - using Evangelical Christians as Zionist pawns since before the Intifada.

Pray with him, and end it with "in Jesus name" and watch his reaction.

There are many Jesus in Italy abeg.

macof:

Ah here's a point I've been trying to make. Osangangan and Obatala have relations

Are you implying a link between them or both being the same person?

macof:


Aren't all Yoruba originally from Ife? or at least the culture began in Ife
I always imagined Ugbo as people at the outskirts of the Ife country, and they were subservient to Ife
Didn't Oduduwa's first encounter with them result from their terrorising Ife, such that Oduduwa engineered the victory of Ife?
I think this also brought him into prominence

Why would they terrorise Ife, if they were Ife
They seem to have already become a separate people organized into a separate nation during the attacks against Ife, probably left Ife many years before oduduwa And not during oduduwa

Indeed, Yoruba morphed in Ile-Ife.

I have been trying to solve the Ife/Ugbo/Moremi equation myself.

Yes, they were 'part' of the original occupants of Ile-Ife but keep in mind the town was not a single entity. It was a system of different hamlets with their own leaders opearing independently but the most power leader from any group assumed the lead role.

Oduduwa came, tried to snatch power with the help of Obameri who was also an original Ife group leader. Sides were formed - Oduduwa vs Obatala were the face of the opposing sides.

I believe Oduduwa's victory was what made the Ugbo leave. Maybe they were banished or as a sign of protest. Remember Obatala was made to vacate Ife also for sometime.

So yes, they left Ife after Oduduwa won the war but they started the chibok thing afterwards which extended into Obalufon/Ogun/Oranmiyan period.

I was told Moremi was a wife to one of them but I go with Oranmiyan because Moremi was from Offa (and still celebrated in Offa) and Offa was founded by an Oyo prince (Olofagangan).

But the question I'm faced with is, dis the kidnapping continue for centuries between Ogun/Obalufon 1&2/Oranmiyan's period? Since Oyo was founded in the 12//13th century and Offa was founded around 14th or 15th C? originally from Ife? or at least the culture began in Ife
I always imagined Ugbo as people at the outskirts of the Ife country, and they were subservient to Ife
Didn't Oduduwa's first encounter with them result from their terrorising Ife, such that Oduduwa engineered the victory of Ife?
I think this also brought him into prominence

Why would they terrorise Ife, if they were Ife
They seem to have already become a separate people organized into a separate nation during the attacks against Ife, probably left Ife many years before oduduwa And not during oduduwa[/quote]

Indeed, Yoruba morphed in Ile-Ife.

I have been trying to solve the Ife/Ugbo/Moremi equation myself.

Yes, they were 'part' of the original occupants of Ile-Ife but keep in mind the town was not a single entity. It was a system of different hamlets with their own leaders opearing independently but the most power leader from any group assumed the lead role.

Oduduwa came, tried to snatch power with the help of Obameri who was also an original Ife group leader. Sides were formed - Oduduwa vs Obatala were the face of the opposing sides.

I believe Oduduwa's victory was what made the Ugbo leave. Maybe they were banished or as a sign of protest. Remember Obatala was made to vacate Ife also for sometime.

So yes, they left Ife after Oduduwa won the war but they started the chibok thing afterwards which extended into Obalufon/Ogun/Oranmiyan period.

I was told Moremi was a wife to one of them but I go with Oranmiyan because Moremi was from Offa (and still celebrated in Offa) and Offa was founded by an Oyo prince (Olofagangan).

But the question I'm faced withis, dis the kidnapping continue for centuries between Ogun/Obalufon 1&2/Oranmiyan's period? Since Oyo was founded in the 12//13th century and Offa was founded around 14th or 15th C?

All these names with "gangan" in them. What does it mean exactly? Is it pertaining to the drum, emphasis on authenticity, or something else?

(I really wanted my moniker to be isalegangan, but NL max was 10 characters when I signed up. Was hoping Seun would accede to my wishes and fix it for me during the mass username streamlining he did. I'm not even sure I asked him after I found out dude doesn't like name changes at all. I kinda understand sha.)

9jacrip:


Are you implying a link between them or both being the same person

Either. Remember on that thread where I sited bits from what I grabbed from a babalawo on TV. .connecting Obamakin to Iranje

isalegan2:
All these names with "gangan" in them. What does it mean exactly? Is it pertaining to the drum, emphasis on authenticity, or something else?

(I really wanted my moniker to be isalegangan, but NL max was 10 characters when I signed up. Was hoping Seun would accede to my wishes and fix it for me during the mass username streamlining he did. I'm not even sure I asked him after I found out dude doesn't like name changes at all. I kinda understand sha.)

Surely it's different
different tone to the pronounciation of the words

macof:

Either. Remember on that thread where I sited bits from what I grabbed from a babalawo on TV. .connecting Obamakin to Iranje

Yes, I was going to state on that thread that my questions back home proved negative - both are not the same, neither are they related.

There is this book/manual written by my uncle given to all Omo Ile Olorisa or Awo (&Ogboni Obatala) containing the chants, rituals, propitiations and sacrifices of Obatala and its Ogboni process - in it contains the Oye Ile (titles for male omo ile orisa and fenales) derived from the names of Obatala's children from the first Olufon (who left to start his lineage) to Oloja Iranje (supreme head representing Obatala at Idita Iranje - my family land/area from Mokuro to Ife/Ilesa boundary) with Obalesun the second in command representing Obatala at Iranje ile to the littlest, Leemo.

Obamakin/Obalufon were not mentioned in the work which was collated after 8 years of intensive research.

I'll snap the cover for you tomorrow for proof.

If Obamakin or either of the Obalufon were Obatala or connected to him, the chants of the deities would reveal this and the family compounds would share a bond meanwhile it is not so.

Yeemo's compound and mine share a bond till tomorrow and we observe it at every festival.

It is an eewo for Obatala offsprings/devotee to attend Oduduwa offsprings/devotee functions till tomorrow likewise Obameri, his general - vice versa.

Obatala and Orisa Ikire share a connection and we observe this at every festival.

I could list a number of deities who were BabaYeye's allies and otherwise.

9jacrip:


Yes, I was going to state on that thread that my questions back home proved negative - both are not the same, neither are they related.

There is this book/manual written by my uncle given to all Omo Ile Olorisa or Awo (&Ogboni Obatala) containing the chants, rituals, propitiations and sacrifices of Obatala and its Ogboni process - in it contains the Oye Ile (titles for male omo ile orisa and fenales) derived from the names of Obatala's children from the first Olufon (who left to start his lineage) to Oloja Iranje (supreme head representing Obatala at Idita Iranje - my family land/area from Mokuro to Ife/Ilesa boundary) with Obalesun the second in command representing Obatala at Iranje ile to the littlest, Leemo.

Obamakin/Obalufon were not mentioned in the work which was collated after 8 years of intensive research.

I'll snap the cover for you tomorrow for proof.

If Obamakin or either of the Obalufon were Obatala or connected to him, the chants of the deities would reveal this and the family compounds would share a bond meanwhile it is not so.

Yeemo's compound and mine share a bond till tomorrow and we observe it at every festival.

It is an eewo for Obatala offsprings/devotee to attend Oduduwa offsprings/devotee functions till tomorrow likewise Obameri, his general - vice versa.

Obatala and Orisa Ikire share a connection and we observe this at every festival.

I could list a number of deities who were BabaYeye's allies and otherwise
.

So you think sources that state Obamakin/Obalufon(sometimes considered one person) as son of Oduduwa are right?
But what if Obalufon is variant of Olufon?

Why then is the name Obamakin showing up around Obatala/Iranje
this Obamakin personality confuses me

Anyway let's not derail too much. .what's ur take on Jewesun? A herbs expert maybe

Very interesting thread. I'm learning a lot. As for the historical questions, I think that genetic testing would help in clarifying a lot of these things. If we could compare gene pools of different tribes in nigeria then quite possibly we might find that we are all actually the same people just conquered by various different invaders. Oduduwa, according to these stories, was just an invader and cannot be the progenitor of yoruba peoples.

macof:


So you think sources that state Obamakin/Obalufon(sometimes considered one person) as son of Oduduwa are right?
But what if Obalufon is variant of Olufon?

Why then is the name Obamakin showing up around Obatala/Iranje
this Obamakin personality confuses me

Anyway let's not derail too much. .what's ur take on Jewesun? A herbs expert maybe

Maybe Obalufon is a variant of Olufon, I have thought about this but did not want to take the leash of it yet because I could be wrong.

I am still waiting to be given more details on Obamikin himself.

The Jewesun person seems elusive, I am still asking around but no one seems to have details on him at the moment.

From my perspective, I think he was probably a herbalist as you said.

9jacrip and macof. Una don throw me into the Ogberi camp.

I dont even know from which angle I can walk through in.

Good job guys

PastorAIO:
Very interesting thread. I'm learning a lot. As for the historical questions, I think that genetic testing would help in clarifying a lot of these things. If we could compare gene pools of different tribes in nigeria then quite possibly we might find that we are all actually the same people just conquered by various different invaders. Oduduwa, according to these stories, was just an invader and cannot be the progenitor of yoruba peoples.

I think we have to separate Oduduwa, the king, from Oduduwa, the deity.

I've read more than one version of the Oduduwa story. I've even seen versions reading Oduduwa the orisha/god was female and the wife of Obatala. I will find the link.

We discussed it here: (BTW, Thanks, PastorAIO, for your explanation in the IFA thread. )
https://www.nairaland.com/590933/buzugee-nairaland-want-talk-living/73
https://www.nairaland.com/207887/ifa-philosophy/1


"(3) ODUDUA.
Odudua, or Odua, who has the title of Iya agbe, The mother who receives," is the chief goddess of the Yorubas. The name means "Black One" (dit, to be black; dudit, black), and the negroes consider a smooth, glossy, black skin a great beauty, and far superior to one of the ordinary cigar-colour. She is always represented as a woman sitting down, and nursing a child.

Odudua is the wife of Obatala . . ."
http://www.sacred-texts.com/afr/yor/yor03.htm

isalegan2:


I think we have to separate Oduduwa, the king, from Oduduwa, the deity.

I've read more than one version of the Oduduwa story. I've even seen versions reading Oduduwa the orisha/god was female and the wife of Obatala. I will find the link.

We discussed it here: (BTW, Thanks, PastorAIO, for your explanation in the IFA thread. )
https://www.nairaland.com/590933/buzugee-nairaland-want-talk-living/73
https://www.nairaland.com/207887/ifa-philosophy/1


"(3) ODUDUA.
Odudua, or Odua, who has the title of Iya agbe, The mother who receives," is the chief goddess of the Yorubas. The name means "Black One" (dit, to be black; dudit, black), and the negroes consider a smooth, glossy, black skin a great beauty, and far superior to one of the ordinary cigar-colour. She is always represented as a woman sitting down, and nursing a child.

Odudua is the wife of Obatala . . ."
http://www.sacred-texts.com/afr/yor/yor03.htm

exactly! This is what many don't realize when talking about Oduduwa
The deity is known by different names and both genders across Yorubaland

FOLYKAZE:


I have watched the same movie. It is Osa eleye. That is simply movie.

Ori lonise. . . .ibi ori gbemi re, ki ese mi ma kona.

My parents did checked my Isekojaye. I have not done it myself.

What is Isekoya and how do one check his?

9jacrip:


You can divine with it.

I explained if here:

...bless these seeds daily with seamans or blood, depends on which you want and you can divine with the seeds - you recite a chant and attempt to pack these seeds at once for a number of times and whatever amount of seed remains between 1 or 2 will determine what odu you'll press on the board of iyerosun or sand which you'll then interprete from what the odu says and apply it to you.

You are expected to divine with it daily and be able to either interprete the odu or have a babalawo interprete it for you.

Most babalawo would not tell you this or teach you the basic interpretations in order to leep you on the leash as most would not want to go to Igbo Odu to complete the process - the process which is very very key.

I'm sure you're aware the itefa/ko ifa kuro ninu epo brings aje boom the first 2 years?

What now happen after the 2 years?

They say most Ifa texts were gotten in dreams, maybe that Jewesun story was gotten through telepathy or something. That is one way to end the confusion. Another thing is that the old world interracted more than we think they did. Our ancestors knew Egypt as Ejigbo and I believe Jesus was initiated into an Orunmila kind of fraternity or cult back in Egypt. He saw himself as a kind of reincarnation of a kind of Orunmila, hence the reference to him as 'the word' which was also used for Orunmila as Ela in the saying Ela loro. Infact Awo initiates are waiting for Ela to appear in the sky as Christians are waiting for Jesus hence the saying Ela ro wa. This is why Jesus is a type of Ela incarnate. The connection is too obvious. It must be noted that Kemitic Egypt spoke an ancient form of Ife language.

9jacrip:


Ela was the god that brough writing to Ife. Has nothing to do with Jesus.

What was Yoruba writing like in the ancient days?

FOLYKAZE:


What was Yoruba writing like in the ancient days?

Baba, I really cannot say o.
I have not taken much interest in it and I'm yet to visit Oluorogbo's shrine to inquire.

Really enjoyed this topic

Where can I find an objective Awo here in Nigeria?

macof:

Ah here's a point I've been trying to make. Osangangan and Obatala have relations

To answer this:

Ugbo folks occupied Mokuro axis with Osangan Obamakin as their king.

Obatala was exiled to Ugbo's Mokuro and being the most powerful, Obamakin vacated his throne for him to be king till he was apeased to return to Iranje Ile but remained king in both places afterwards till the Ugbo moved out of protest.

9jacrip:


To answer this:

Ugbo folks occupied Mokuro axis with Osangan Obamakin as their king.

Obatala was exiled to Ugbo's Mokuro and being the most powerful, Obamakin vacated his throne for him to be king till he was apeased to return to Iranje Ile but remained king in both places afterwards till the Ugbo moved out of protest.

Ah! 9jacrip you have given me a priceless information here. Thanks.

When talking of Obatala, that is totally prehistoric. The new Oduduwa in Ife came recently and the Moremi story must have happened in one of the hundreds of old Ifes that existed before the founding of Offa as Moremi is the matron deity of Offa. After Obatala were people like Orunmila with his own dynasty in Ife, later the new Oduduwa who could not have met Orunmila not to talk of Obatala on the ground. We may be talking of hundreds of thousands of years of history, maybe billlions of years. There are various place names in Ifa which some say corresponds to places like Australia, West Indies and etc.

macof:


Ah! 9jacrip you have given me a priceless information here. Thanks.

Yes boss.

I forgot to add that Obamakin became king again when they moved to Ugboland in present day Ondo.

lawani:
When talking of Obatala, that is totally prehistoric. The new Oduduwa in Ife came recently and the Moremi story must have happened in one of the hundreds of old Ifes that existed before the founding of Offa as Moremi is the matron deity of Offa. After Obatala were people like Orunmila with his own dynasty in Ife, later the new Oduduwa who could not have met Orunmila not to talk of Obatala on the ground. We may be talking of hundreds of thousands of years of history, maybe billlions of years. There are various place names in Ifa which some say corresponds to places like Australia, West Indies and etc.

Orunmila didn't rule Ife, he even spent more time in Ekiti than in Ife.

Moremi story of Ife and Offa and Ugbo correspond.

Oduduwa came in 9th/10th C after up to like 90 leaders before Obatala.

Let us not confuse myth with actual history. When Ifa speaks of situations involving deities as the acts, they're mostly to explain situations not to be taken literally.

9jacrip:


Orunmila didn't rule Ife, he even spent more time in Ekiti than in Ife.

Moremi story of Ife and Offa and Ugbo correspond.

Oduduwa came in 9th/10th C after up to like 90 leaders before Obatala.

Let us not confuse myth with actual history. When Ifa speaks of situations involving deities as the acts, they're mostly to explain situations not to be taken literally.

There were various Ifes from the beginning of the world to date. Do not take tradition lightly. The first Ife was founded by Obatala and scientifically that might be hundreds of thousands of years ago at least if not millions. How he came to be domiciled at Iranje is what I don't understand as I am not an Awo. How Ogun who led the team that landed on Earth domiciled at Ire, I do not know but Obatala was father of all. Various Obas of many ancient Ifes would have been incarnations of Ogun, Sango, Obatala, Orunmila, though I see all orisa as manifesting a special department of Obatala who is father or leader of all. All of them were also in the team that landed on Earth with civilization. Then the Ifa corpus is muddled up with cross accounts of different orisas incarnated in different places at different times. Obatala as male then as female, the last Sango was the Alaafin who ruled in the 15th century while the first one was part of the team that founded Ife, Duro Ladipo was Sango in his own right too. There have been various Oguns as well. However on the overall there was no struggle between the first Obatala and Oduduwa and it seems somehow apparent that the pre Oduduwa dynasty among the Yoruba had Orunmila on top of it. Prior to that it might be Ogun, then Obatala, I am not sure though bu the male Oduduwa who arrived recently is not their mate, the original Oduduwa that came with the orisas was a woman

9jacrip:


Yes boss.

I forgot to add that Obamakin became king again when they moved to Ugboland in present day Ondo.

Ah yes!! Oramakin is what Ilaje call him. . Anything to do with Oranfe Onile?

But I still don't get something, Obamakin was king of Ugbo at Ife then later at present ondo state but what about his role as second Olufe?