sweetgala:


You can't annex what is already yours, by the time the Benin kingdom was expanding it was already the territory of an expansive Yoruba lineage from Ife who had already lorded over much of those same Yoruba areas for many years. It would seem they moved their base to a different area for economic or geographical purposes.

Are you insinuating that the Yorubas ruled Benin by proxy? That's ridiculous simply because if we take the commonly held tale that Oranmiyan and his son ruled Benin, then it means they became naturalized binis and not the other way around. Note that according to the story, Oranmiyan was invited to rule, not that he conquered any part of Benin.

Kgdavid:


Are you insinuating that the Yorubas ruled Benin by proxy? That's ridiculous simply because if we take the commonly held tale that Oranmiyan and his son ruled Benin, then it means they became naturalized binis and not the other way around. Note that according to the story, Oranmiyan was invited to rule, not that he conquered any part of Benin.

The story is that of a returning prince, you can define it as rule by proxy but I'd argue that the dynasty from ife which ruled Bini for however long retained their homestead in Ife.

opal4real:
OGIAMEN OF ITSEKIRI NOW OLU OF WARRI WAS TOTALLY WRONG BY THAT STATEMENT.....EVERYTHING ABOUT THE ROYAL COURT OF ITSEKIRI IS BENIN......

Mr Man say what you know
There has never been anything like Ogiamen of Itsekiri..but The (Olu of Warri) right from inception. Carry talk chairman u hear?

Kgdavid
The argument over who came first or second is very cute and all but when it comes to indisputable historical facts, the undeniable truth is that the Benin Empire was the most dominant kingdom in southern Nigeria, annexing vast areas of both Yoruba and Igbo areas, with its expansion halted solely by colonialism, which was resisted fiercely. When it comes to culture, the Binis were far ahead of other tribes in what we know as Nigeria today, being sophisticated artisans and builders.

So Whether the first oba of Benin was a son of Oduduwa or not, the Benin empire has always been far greater than any Yoruba kingdom in history.

................


@kgdavid



This Benin supremacy claim started by the present King of Benin and it's a form of political liberation from the yorubas. Go read the book written by the portuguese explorer (joao afonso aviero). He stated how the Obas of Benin accorded the Oni of Ife then and till modern history.

https://books.google.com.ng/books?id=hBTqPX4G9Y4C&pg=PA159&lpg=PA159&dq=joao+afonso+aveiro+ife&source=bl&ots=FQdVs4h4at&sig=LM0fpsmfzDkT7cG4SORdc1RsGyw&hl=en

shigothang:
Kgdavid
The argument over who came first or second is very cute and all but when it comes to indisputable historical facts, the undeniable truth is that the Benin Empire was the most dominant kingdom in southern Nigeria, annexing vast areas of both Yoruba and Igbo areas, with its expansion halted solely by colonialism, which was resisted fiercely. When it comes to culture, the Binis were far ahead of other tribes in what we know as Nigeria today, being sophisticated artisans and builders.

So Whether the first oba of Benin was a son of Oduduwa or not, the Benin empire has always been far greater than any Yoruba kingdom in history.

................


@kgdavid



This Benin supremacy claim started by the present King of Benin and it's a form of political liberation from the yorubas. Go read the book written by the portuguese explorer (joao afonso aviero). He stated how the Obas of Benin accorded the Oni of Ife then and till modern history.

https://books.google.com.ng/books?id=hBTqPX4G9Y4C&pg=PA159&lpg=PA159&dq=joao+afonso+aveiro+ife&source=bl&ots=FQdVs4h4at&sig=LM0fpsmfzDkT7cG4SORdc1RsGyw&hl=en

Alright, i'll read the book.

@kgdavid


More facts on how Oni of Ife enthroned Benin kings .

This works describes how Oni of Ife who payed a central role in Benin royal enthronements by providing a brass crown,staff, and cross in acknowledgement of the new king's legitimacy.



https://books.google.com.ng/books?id=NIWSBwAAQBAJ&pg=PA6&lpg=PA6&dq=joao+afonso+aveiro+on+ife+kingdom+and+benin+kingdom&source=bl&ots=tKvYnv6GBu&sig=eu-h04a57wZSHgSaCEIkTp9rAzk&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwissISogpXLAhWmJZoKHTPGAZoQ6AEIRTAH#v=onepage&q=joao%20afonso%20aveiro%2

sweetgala:


That guy was just a whipping boy to take the fall during all that Bola Ige saga and the whole dabacle of Bisi Akande, the guy nah family in a way, he married my cousin but the wahala he has given us no be today.

I can remember seeing him often while growing up at mama's Christmas parties in ibadan. Cool guy sometimes

Sad, that name will forever be soiled. He must be one tough person to have been able to put up with the allegations, especially if false.

Are you into politics in Ife too?

sweetgala:


The story is that of a returning prince, you can define it as rule by proxy but I'd argue that the dynasty from ife which ruled Bini for however long retained their homestead in Ife.

What we can agree upon is that while the Yorubas and Binis do share some cultural heritage, these two people groups remain quite distinct, and the notable inclusion of one yoruba prince in the genealogy of Benin rulers is not quite sufficient to erode those divisions.

In fact, the original edo people were already well established in the area, before the coming of oduduwa and the rule of Oranmiyan. You would be wrong to assume the fact of Oranmiyan ruling Benin for a short period extends to meaning that Ife in some way ruled Benin.

Further, Oranmiyan married a Bini woman and fathered the next Oba through her. The yoruba intrusion into bini rulership was altogether quite brief and did not in anyway result in the expansion of the Benin territory. This expansion in fact, would not occur until many centuries later, under Oba Ewuare, by which time any cultural significance of Oranmiyans brief stay in Benin, had long long been eroded. You see, the narrative of a "returning prince" as you put it, is of very little import in this debate. These territories were not ceded diplomatically; they were annexed economically and militarily. There's no two ways about it, the Benin empire was absolutely dominant, and yoruba influence in the Benin courts, sequel to the reclusion of Oranmiyan, was nil.

There is historical evidence that diplomatic relations may have existed between Benin and the Yoruba states in the Region such as Ife (of course), Owo, Ijebu and etc, but it is observable that Benin became more hostile and warlike towards these neighbors, as the slave trade flourished, expanding it's territories by military might in all directions, which, notably, was when Lagos was annexed.

And to set the record straight, Yoruba claims to Lagos are made tenuous for this reason, as it was the British who extinguished Benins grip on Lagos, turning it into their administrative base, and therefore providing some reasonable historical basis for the claim that Lagos is a no-mans land. But that is a debate for another day.

AreaFada2:


Several reasons. Benin also has one of the few national museums in Nigeria. So logical that most Benin arts should be in National Museum in Benin.

The major reason for being in Museums abroad is because when British Forces invaded Benin, razed the palace and burned most of the city in 1897, apart from deporting Oba Ovonramwen to Calabar, they also carted away thousands of Benin arts to Europe. From Europe, some found their way to USA.

About 2,400 pieces are in foreign museums: British Museum (700 pieces), Berlin Museum (580), Oxford Museum (327), Hamburg/Germany Museum(196) , Leiden/Holland Museum (98), Dresden/Germany Museum (182), New York Museum (163), Philadelphia/USA Museum (100), Leipzig/Germany Museum(87), Cologne/Germany Museum (73), Boston/USA Museum (28). And many but unknown number in private collections across the globe. Meanwhile Britain have only returned just a single item since 1897.

They were sold by the British to cover the cost of the war against Benin.

Meanwhile, only about 50 original pieces like the looted ones are in Nigeria as a whole. Most in Benin Museum are just replicas.

Many other museums/collections worldwide have replicas. Of course these replicas are NOT counted among the looted pieces.

Then if that's the case, can't we get our thing back ni, afteral the war is over. Let the government do everything in it's powers to bring it back and the British should be sued for war crimes

shigothang:
Kgdavid
The argument over who came first or second is very cute and all but when it comes to indisputable historical facts, the undeniable truth is that the Benin Empire was the most dominant kingdom in southern Nigeria, annexing vast areas of both Yoruba and Igbo areas, with its expansion halted solely by colonialism, which was resisted fiercely. When it comes to culture, the Binis were far ahead of other tribes in what we know as Nigeria today, being sophisticated artisans and builders.

So Whether the first oba of Benin was a son of Oduduwa or not, the Benin empire has always been far greater than any Yoruba kingdom in history.

................


@kgdavid



This Benin supremacy claim started by the present King of Benin and it's a form of political liberation from the yorubas. Go read the book written by the portuguese explorer (joao afonso aviero). He stated how the Obas of Benin accorded the Oni of Ife then and till modern history.

https://books.google.com.ng/books?id=hBTqPX4G9Y4C&pg=PA159&lpg=PA159&dq=joao+afonso+aveiro+ife&source=bl&ots=FQdVs4h4at&sig=LM0fpsmfzDkT7cG4SORdc1RsGyw&hl=en

The book says and i quote, "the ooni of ife to whom the inhabitants accorded and modern inhabitants still accord, a loose spiritual allegiance". Spiritual allegiance is quite different from political allegiance, and much more salient, is the application of the adjective "loose". Meaning the ooni of ife was respected in the same way you might respect an elder who is not your father. You would greet him well but that does not mean he has any rulership over you.

Kgdavid:


What we can agree upon is that while the Yorubas and Binis do share some cultural heritage, these two people groups remain quite distinct, and the notable inclusion of one yoruba prince in the genealogy of Benin rulers is not quite sufficient to erode those divisions.

In fact, the original edo people were already well established in the area, before the coming of oduduwa and the rule of Oranmiyan. You would be wrong to assume the fact of Oranmiyan ruling Benin for a short period extends to meaning that Ife in some way ruled Benin.

Further, Oranmiyan married a Bini woman and fathered the next Oba through her. The yoruba intrusion into bini rulership was altogether quite brief and did not in anyway result in the expansion of the Benin territory. This expansion in fact, would not occur until many centuries later, under Oba Ewuare, by which time any cultural significance of Oranmiyans brief stay in Benin, had long long been eroded. You see, the narrative of a "returning prince" as you put it, is of very little import in this debate. These territories were not ceded diplomatically; they were annexed economically and militarily. There's no two ways about it, the Benin empire was absolutely dominant, and yoruba influence in the Benin courts, sequel to the reclusion of Oranmiyan, was nil.

There is historical evidence that diplomatic relations may have existed between Benin and the Yoruba states in the Region such as Ife (of course), Owo, Ijebu and etc, but it is observable that Benin became more hostile and warlike towards these neighbors, as the slave trade flourished, expanding it's territories by military might in all directions, which, notably, was when Lagos was annexed.

And to set the record straight, Yoruba claims to Lagos are made tenuous for this reason, as it was the British who extinguished Benins grip on Lagos, turning it into their administrative base, and therefore providing some reasonable historical basis for the claim that Lagos is a no-mans land. But that is a debate for another day.

Lagos is as Yoruba as they come, that it was under the influence of an expansive Bini empire does not devalue that fact. The indigenous people of Lagos are Yoruba and share little tradition with Bini empire, but just to make sure your that there is no confusion the epe, Egba and ijebu have for millennia now taken over Lagos in al factors.

Anyone who knows what's what knows they control culture, commerce and are the lifeline of Lagos.

Good.Why must he be respected ? Its means there was a connection and a domineering influence .

More facts on how Oni of Ife enthroned Benin kings .

This works describes how Oni of Ife who payed a central role in Benin royal enthronements by providing a brass crown,staff, and cross in acknowledgement of the new king's legitimacy.



https://books.google.com.ng/books?id=NIWSBwAAQBAJ&pg=PA6&lpg=PA6&dq=joao+afonso+aveiro+on+ife+kingdom+and+benin+kingdom&source=bl&ots=tKvYnv6GBu&sig=eu-h04a57wZSHgSaCEIkTp9rAzk&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwissISogpXLAhWmJZoKHTPGAZoQ6AEIRTAH#v=onepage&q=joao%20afonso%20aveiro%20on%20ife%20kingdom%20and%20benin%20kingdom&f=false

Medieval Cross Influenced Ancient Benin Culture



Written on 25 September 2010 by Archivist in High Middle Ages (1000-1300)
Medieval Cross Influenced Ancient Benin CultureIn the eleventh century Christians grew worried when the Turks conquered Palestine and captured Jerusalem in 1076 A.D, and stopped Christian pilgrims from traveling to the Holy Land.

The Emperor of Constantinople asked the pope for help against the Turks. Pope Urban II called a great council in 1095 A.D at Clermont in France; He promised pardon for sins (indulgence) to all Christians who would go to light the Turks and so “War of the cross” the crusade began.

All crusaders felt they were fighting for God. They wore a cross for their badge and shouted ‘Deus Vult’ God wills; as their battle cry.

There were eight crusades in all; from 1076 to 1099 A.D Jerusalem was captured and Christian kingdoms were set up in the lands which had been won.

According to a contemporary account, sometime before the battle at the Milvian in 312 A.D against Maxentius, Constantine who was a pagan then, saw in a bright day light a cross in the sky with the Greek words “conquer by this” Constantine believed that he had been promised victory in a critical battle by a vision of the cross of Jesus.

In 1187, the Turks took back Jerusalem. This led to the third crusade in 1190 to 1192. This was the most exciting crusade, for among those who joined the crusade was King Richard the Lion-heart, the most famous soldier in Europe.

The Knights of St. John of Jerusalem a Roman Catholic Religious Order made their headquarters on Malta in 1500s. They resisted a long sierge from the Turks.

Knights became the backbone of the armies of Europe in the middle Ages. Knights could fight from horse back with his Lance, sword and shield. The most famous of the fighting orders of knighthood came from the crusades.

Soldiers banded together to protect the holy places in Jerusalem, the order of Knights Templar was born. They lived as a brotherhood of monks. A rival order, the Knights Hospitalers was founded to protect pilgrims to the Holy land.

Knights took their ideas of serving God from the crusade and a Lady from provence in the south of France with the ideas of chivalry, courtly. Love and Romance, Knights became unlike Monks and do all their deeds for the love of a Lady.

Knights had apprenticeship training by Jousting in tournaments, mocks-combats almost as dangerous as war.

Joao de Barros in his accounts wrote of a possible pre-Christian influence in ancient Benin Kingdom:- “Among the many things which the king D. Jodo learnt from the ambassador of the king of Benin and also from Joao Afonso d Aveiro of what they had been told by the inhabitants of these regions was that to the east of Benin Kingdom at twenty moons journey which according to their account and the short journeys they made would be about two hundred and fifty of our leagues (5.556km or 3.456 is a league) there lived the most powerful monarch of these parts who was called “Ogane”. Among the pagan chiefs of the territories of Benin, Ogane was held in as great veneration as is the supreme Pontif with us.

“In accordance with a very ancient custom, the King of Benin, on ascending the throne, sends ambassadors to Ogane with rich gifts to announce that by the decease of his predecessor, he has succeeded to the Kingdom of Benin and request confirmation.

To signify his assent, the Prince Ogane sends the King a staff and a head piece of shining brass fashioned like a Spanish helment in place of a crown and scepter. He also sends a cross, likewise of brass to be worn round the neck, a holy and religious emblem similar to that worn by the KNIGHTS of the order of Saint JOHN.
Without these emblems the people do not recognize the King as lawful ruler, nor can he call himself truly king.”

“All the time this ambassador is at the court of Ogane, he never sees the Prince, but only the curtains of silk behind which he sits, for he is regarded as sacred. When the ambassador is leaving, he is shown a foot below the curtains as a sign that the Prince is within and agrees to the matters that he has raised; this foot they reverence as thought it were a sacred relic”

“As a kind of reward for the hardships of such a journey, the ambassador receives a small CROSS, similar to that sent to the King, which is thrown around his neck to signify that he is free and exempt from all servitudes and privileged in his native country as the KNIGHTS are with us.

“In the year 1510 A.D Certain ambassadors of the king of Benin came to this kingdom, among whom was a man about seventy years of age who was wearing one of these CROSSES. I asked him the reason and he gave me an explanation similar to the above.

“And as in the time of the King D. Jodo, whenever India was spoken of, reference was always made to a very powerful king called Prester John of the Indies, who was reputed to be a Christian.

It seemed therefore to the King that it might be possible to enter India by way of this kingdom, for he had learnt from the Abyssinian Priests who came to these parts of Spain, and also from some friars who had been from this kingdom to Jerusalem and whom he had ordered to gather information about this Prince, that his country was in the Land above Egypt whence it stretched to the southern sea”.

“The distance of two hundred and fifty Leagues to the east were according to the people of Benin, the country of Prince Ogane Lay, concluded that he must be Priest John for both were hidden behind curtains of silk and held the emblem of the CROSS in great veneration”.

Gun powder and firearms made Knights out of date, but the ideals dd not die. The church and Kings continued to dub men Knights for loyal service.

Knights are still addressed as “Sir” and still meets with impressive pageantry at chapels. Medals and decorations are awards given to honour solders for distinguished service or achievements. \
Most decorations take the form of a STAR or CROSS, such as the Maltese CROSS, Iron CROSS, Victorian CROSS, Distinguished Service CROSS.

The cross the old man brought back is still a mystery and the most puzzling question of all is still the one that faced the Portuguese, but in 1486 Joao de barros wrote to the Portuguese Monarch that the Oba of Benin asks for missionaries.

The King of Benin sent as ambassador, to king Joao one of his captains, a- negro with Joao Affonso d Aveiro who brought back the first pepper, from a seaport town called Gwatto (Ughoton) because he desired to learn more about Europe, whose people were regarded there as an unusual novelty”.

In 1494 Jerome Munzer wrote that Native Priests were ordained in Benin. The Benin crafts man produced ivory salt cellar of the Portuguese noblemen on the salt cellar wearing the CROSS of the Military order of Christ.

bedford101:

Mr Man say what you know
There has never been anything like Ogiamen of Itsekiri..but The (Olu of Warri) right from inception. Carry talk chairman u hear?

Lolz... for your information there was NEVER olu of WARRI but ITSEKIRI.

.

shigothang:
Kgdavid
The argument over who came first or second is very cute and all but when it comes to indisputable historical facts, the undeniable truth is that the Benin Empire was the most dominant kingdom in southern Nigeria, annexing vast areas of both Yoruba and Igbo areas, with its expansion halted solely by colonialism, which was resisted fiercely. When it comes to culture, the Binis were far ahead of other tribes in what we know as Nigeria today, being sophisticated artisans and builders.

So Whether the first oba of Benin was a son of Oduduwa or not, the Benin empire has always been far greater than any Yoruba kingdom in history.

................


@kgdavid



This Benin supremacy claim started by the present King of Benin and it's a form of political liberation from the yorubas. Go read the book written by the portuguese explorer (joao afonso aviero). He stated how the Obas of Benin accorded the Oni of Ife then and till modern history.

https://books.google.com.ng/books?id=hBTqPX4G9Y4C&pg=PA159&lpg=PA159&dq=joao+afonso+aveiro+ife&source=bl&ots=FQdVs4h4at&sig=LM0fpsmfzDkT7cG4SORdc1RsGyw&hl=en

This story has been reviewed and discussed extensively in other forums.

MAYBE was the word used and that word is a mere possibility that OGANE could be John Prester or Ooni.

If you read further then you'll discover that the said king was located to the EAST of BENIN Kingdom and IFE as we all know is located at the WEST of BENIN.

Who is OGANE the natives were refering to and take note they were not BENIN natives but outsiders who gave this narrative.



Joao de Barros in his accounts wrote of a possible pre-Christian influence in ancient Benin Kingdom:- “Among the many things which the king D. Jodo learnt from the ambassador of the king of Benin and also from Joao Afonso d Aveiro of what they had been told by the inhabitants of these regions was that to[b] the east of Benin Kingdom[/b] at twenty moons journey which according to their account and the short journeys they made would be about two hundred and fifty of our leagues (5.556km or 3.456 is a league) there lived the most powerful monarch of these parts who was called “Ogane”. Among the pagan chiefs of the territories of Benin, Ogane was held in as great veneration as is the supreme Pontif with us

opal4real:



Lolz... for your information there was NEVER olu of WARRI but ITSEKIRI WARRI.

This are the tribalist who sleep and eat with sentiments, I will leave you to ur ignorant
Long live The Ooni of Ife
Long live The Oba of Benin kingdom
Long live The Olu of Warri (Ogiame suooo)

shigothang:
Medieval Cross Influenced Ancient Benin Culture



Written on 25 September 2010 by Archivist in High Middle Ages (1000-1300)
Medieval Cross Influenced Ancient Benin CultureIn the eleventh century Christians grew worried when the Turks conquered Palestine and captured Jerusalem in 1076 A.D, and stopped Christian pilgrims from traveling to the Holy Land.

The Emperor of Constantinople asked the pope for help against the Turks. Pope Urban II called a great council in 1095 A.D at Clermont in France; He promised pardon for sins (indulgence) to all Christians who would go to light the Turks and so “War of the cross” the crusade began.

All crusaders felt they were fighting for God. They wore a cross for their badge and shouted ‘Deus Vult’ God wills; as their battle cry.

There were eight crusades in all; from 1076 to 1099 A.D Jerusalem was captured and Christian kingdoms were set up in the lands which had been won.

According to a contemporary account, sometime before the battle at the Milvian in 312 A.D against Maxentius, Constantine who was a pagan then, saw in a bright day light a cross in the sky with the Greek words “conquer by this” Constantine believed that he had been promised victory in a critical battle by a vision of the cross of Jesus.

In 1187, the Turks took back Jerusalem. This led to the third crusade in 1190 to 1192. This was the most exciting crusade, for among those who joined the crusade was King Richard the Lion-heart, the most famous soldier in Europe.

The Knights of St. John of Jerusalem a Roman Catholic Religious Order made their headquarters on Malta in 1500s. They resisted a long sierge from the Turks.

Knights became the backbone of the armies of Europe in the middle Ages. Knights could fight from horse back with his Lance, sword and shield. The most famous of the fighting orders of knighthood came from the crusades.

Soldiers banded together to protect the holy places in Jerusalem, the order of Knights Templar was born. They lived as a brotherhood of monks. A rival order, the Knights Hospitalers was founded to protect pilgrims to the Holy land.

Knights took their ideas of serving God from the crusade and a Lady from provence in the south of France with the ideas of chivalry, courtly. Love and Romance, Knights became unlike Monks and do all their deeds for the love of a Lady.

Knights had apprenticeship training by Jousting in tournaments, mocks-combats almost as dangerous as war.

Joao de Barros in his accounts wrote of a possible pre-Christian influence in ancient Benin Kingdom:- “Among the many things which the king D. Jodo learnt from the ambassador of the king of Benin and also from Joao Afonso d Aveiro of what they had been told by the inhabitants of these regions was that to the east of Benin Kingdom at twenty moons journey which according to their account and the short journeys they made would be about two hundred and fifty of our leagues (5.556km or 3.456 is a league) there lived the most powerful monarch of these parts who was called “Ogane”. Among the pagan chiefs of the territories of Benin, Ogane was held in as great veneration as is the supreme Pontif with us.

“In accordance with a very ancient custom, the King of Benin, on ascending the throne, sends ambassadors to Ogane with rich gifts to announce that by the decease of his predecessor, he has succeeded to the Kingdom of Benin and request confirmation.

To signify his assent, the Prince Ogane sends the King a staff and a head piece of shining brass fashioned like a Spanish helment in place of a crown and scepter. He also sends a cross, likewise of brass to be worn round the neck, a holy and religious emblem similar to that worn by the KNIGHTS of the order of Saint JOHN.
Without these emblems the people do not recognize the King as lawful ruler, nor can he call himself truly king.”

“All the time this ambassador is at the court of Ogane, he never sees the Prince, but only the curtains of silk behind which he sits, for he is regarded as sacred. When the ambassador is leaving, he is shown a foot below the curtains as a sign that the Prince is within and agrees to the matters that he has raised; this foot they reverence as thought it were a sacred relic”

“As a kind of reward for the hardships of such a journey, the ambassador receives a small CROSS, similar to that sent to the King, which is thrown around his neck to signify that he is free and exempt from all servitudes and privileged in his native country as the KNIGHTS are with us.

“In the year 1510 A.D Certain ambassadors of the king of Benin came to this kingdom, among whom was a man about seventy years of age who was wearing one of these CROSSES. I asked him the reason and he gave me an explanation similar to the above.

“And as in the time of the King D. Jodo, whenever India was spoken of, reference was always made to a very powerful king called Prester John of the Indies, who was reputed to be a Christian.

It seemed therefore to the King that it might be possible to enter India by way of this kingdom, for he had learnt from the Abyssinian Priests who came to these parts of Spain, and also from some friars who had been from this kingdom to Jerusalem and whom he had ordered to gather information about this Prince, that his country was in the Land above Egypt whence it stretched to the southern sea”.

“The distance of two hundred and fifty Leagues to the east were according to the people of Benin, the country of Prince Ogane Lay, concluded that he must be Priest John for both were hidden behind curtains of silk and held the emblem of the CROSS in great veneration”.

Gun powder and firearms made Knights out of date, but the ideals dd not die. The church and Kings continued to dub men Knights for loyal service.

Knights are still addressed as “Sir” and still meets with impressive pageantry at chapels. Medals and decorations are awards given to honour solders for distinguished service or achievements. \
Most decorations take the form of a STAR or CROSS, such as the Maltese CROSS, Iron CROSS, Victorian CROSS, Distinguished Service CROSS.

The cross the old man brought back is still a mystery and the most puzzling question of all is still the one that faced the Portuguese, but in 1486 Joao de barros wrote to the Portuguese Monarch that the Oba of Benin asks for missionaries.

The King of Benin sent as ambassador, to king Joao one of his captains, a- negro with Joao Affonso d Aveiro who brought back the first pepper, from a seaport town called Gwatto (Ughoton) because he desired to learn more about Europe, whose people were regarded there as an unusual novelty”.

In 1494 Jerome Munzer wrote that Native Priests were ordained in Benin. The Benin crafts man produced ivory salt cellar of the Portuguese noblemen on the salt cellar wearing the CROSS of the Military order of Christ.

I hoped, wished, prayed ( even if to nothing )that you will get to the part that said the potentate that the Binis revered was to the EAST of Benin Kingdom.

250 leagues is about 750 miles, so assuming the informers were telling the truth, the location would be somewhere in central Africa- Congo or thereabouts perhaps, unless they meant the north or Ethiopia. It could also be the general Angola area since Benin had some contact with Angola although that may have been via the Portuguese.

In addition, it was a twenty month journey, so do the maths.

bokohalal:


I hoped, wished, prayed ( even if to nothing )that you will get to the part that said the potentate that the Binis revered was to the EAST of Benin Kingdom.

does Bini have a word for silk?

tpiar:

does Bini have a word for silk?

I very much doubt that they do.

cbrass:


Then if that's the case, can't we get our thing back ni, afteral the war is over. Let the government do everything in it's powers to bring it back and the British should be sued for war crimes

Would be nice.

In 1938, they returned Oba Ovonramwen's royal regalia. Oba Akenzua II is seen wearing the regalia to welcome Queen Elizabeth in Benin on January 9th, 1956. The only one officially returned.

In 2014, Dr Mark Walker, great grandson of one of the invaders returned two items inherited from his family. One long beaked bird and a gong/egogo.
9ja government doesn't do much, there are better things like oil money to concentrate on. Prince Edun and the palace have been fighting, requesting, etc. Even the Greek government hasn't achieved getting Britain to return looted ancient statues and marbles, let alone a lackadaisical 9ja govt. See the two items attached below.

Shymm3x:


In what century did the Ooni of Ife annex Epe?

A lot of you just distort history for no reason. For the Ooni of Ife to annex Epe, he must have annexed Ijebu kingdom. And the fact that throughout history, Ife never had an army that could even defend Ife and Ijebu warriors were the ones who protected Ife throughout all its wars, is enough to show that you don't even know what you're talking about.

Ife never annexed any kingdom. Even if it tried, it never had the army to pull it off. How many times did Owu sack Ife?

shymm3x

Ife had a strong culture and a powerful army, we all know Ogun became Ooni
where is there Ogun without an army?

Also ask, how did princes from Ife just settle in places and made themselves Kings? you think this happened without a powerful army that already had these places in the bag?

these Obas were meant to be like a viceroy...Infact strictly speaking with pure yoruba traditions; "Oba" is a title beneath the Ooni. ...he is Olofin not Oba, Oba was the title of the 13 heads within the Ife confederacy ie. Obatala, Obawinrin, Obalejugbe, Obajio etc before Oduduwa brought them under him

having all the princes leave Ife with their followers must have weakened the Ife army

macof:


shymm3x

Ife had a strong culture and a powerful army, we all know Ogun became Ooni
where is there Ogun without an army?

Also ask, how did princes from Ife just settle in places and made themselves Kings? you think this happened without a powerful army that already had these places in the bag?

these Obas were meant to be like a viceroy...Infact strictly speaking with pure yoruba traditions; "Oba" is a title beneath the Ooni. ...he is Olofin not Oba, Oba was the title of the 13 heads within the Ife confederacy ie. Obatala, Obawinrin, Obalejugbe, Obajio etc before Oduduwa brought them under him

having all the princes leave Ife with their followers must have weakened the Ife army

Bro, the Ooni Ogun was not Ogun Ladin alagbede akoko or Ogun Lakaye alagbede ikeyin. His name was just that, Ogun like we have Ogunwusi today.

Even during Oranmiyan a seasoned war lord Ife didn't have any standing army.

Ife's attempt at starting a band of army started with Owu war that broke out at Apomu an Ife land and guess what? Ife was badly beaten and made to scamper until Ijebu.

We tried again a number of times but mehn na whooping we dey take until the time of I think Derin Ologbenla who was 'loco'. Ife 'army' recorded some type of war relevance during this period and that was it.

We had 5 palace chiefs but 3 were addee later -Waasin, Jagunosin snd one other. Jagunosin is the position of a war lord and it must have been invented during Modakeke wars.

To answer the question of how Ife royals and commoners just settle; back then once people know you're from Ife the city of gods, you're accorded royal privileges. And most Ife royals who emigrated had royal paraphernalia with them.

Till today, Ife people with Ife surnames (or non Ifes) still enjoy such treatments in traditional circles like Ogboni, Ifa, Obatala etc i.e those who did/do their awo initiation and practices in Ife.

9jacrip:


Bro, the Ooni Ogun was not Ogun Ladin alagbede akoko or Ogun Lakaye alagbede ikeyin. His name was just that, Ogun like we have Ogunwusi today.

Even during Oranmiyan a seasoned war lord Ife didn't have any standing army.

Ife's attempt at starting a band of army started with Owu war that broke out at Apomu an Ife land and guess what? Ife was badly beaten and made to scamper until Ijebu.

We tried again a number of times but mehn na whooping we dey take until the time of I think Derin Ologbenla who was 'loco'. Ife 'army' recorded some type of war relevance during this period and that was it.

We had 5 palace chiefs but 3 were addee later -Waasin, Jagunosin snd one other. Jagunosin is the position of a war lord and it must have been invented during Modakeke wars.

To answer the question of how Ife royals and commoners just settle; back then once people know you're from Ife the city of gods, you're accorded royal privileges. And most Ife royals who emigrated had royal paraphernalia with them.

Till today, Ife people with Ife surnames (or non Ifes) still enjoy such treatments in traditional circles like Ogboni, Ifa, Obatala etc i.e those who did/do their awo initiation and practices in Ife.

I see, but if the Ife never had an army and the Jagunosin title is only during the time of modakeke
what would you say about Lagelu who seems to have been a war lord from Ife?


but I was actually talking about Oduduwa and pre-oduduwa time not after

9jacrip:


Bro, the Ooni Ogun was not Ogun Ladin alagbede akoko or Ogun Lakaye alagbede ikeyin. His name was just that, Ogun like we have Ogunwusi today.

Even during Oranmiyan a seasoned war lord Ife didn't have any standing army.

Ife's attempt at starting a band of army started with Owu war that broke out at Apomu an Ife land and guess what? Ife was badly beaten and made to scamper until Ijebu.

We tried again a number of times but mehn na whooping we dey take until the time of I think Derin Ologbenla who was 'loco'. Ife 'army' recorded some type of war relevance during this period and that was it.

We had 5 palace chiefs but 3 were addee later -Waasin, Jagunosin snd one other. Jagunosin is the position of a war lord and it must have been invented during Modakeke wars.

To answer the question of how Ife royals and commoners just settle; back then once people know you're from Ife the city of gods, you're accorded royal privileges. And most Ife royals who emigrated had royal paraphernalia with them.

Till today, Ife people with Ife surnames (or non Ifes) still enjoy such treatments in traditional circles like Ogboni, Ifa, Obatala etc i.e those who did/do their awo initiation and practices in Ife.

Which one exactly of the two Oguns you mentioned ended up in Ire-Ekiti? The one time I visited the Ooni's palace, we were shown the shrine of Ogun Ladin and the person who attended to us ragaled us with tales of how Ogun Ladin would descend from the sky to give technology to the people of Ife.

It is widely believed that Ogun Lakaye is the warrior and probably the one who ended up in Ire. However, in the oriki of Ire-Ekiti are the lines:

Ìrèmògún, omo àwísè,
Omo alágbède àkókó ....

Would appreciate if you throw more light on which is which.

macof:



I see, but if the Ife never had an army and the Jagunosin title is only during the time of modakeke
what would you say about Lagelu who seems to have been a war lord from Ife?


but I was actually talking about Oduduwa and pre-oduduwa time not after

Lagelu is recent.

Ife was said to have had a band of soldiers who attempted to war with Owu but they were badly defeated and had to go lounge somewhere around Iwo till Ijebus came to help us as usual.

There are a number of other Ife 'warriors' but bro we both know 'ole' ni gbogbo wan except for Oranmiyan and Derin (these are 2 of the few Ife warriors).

Ghost01:
Which one exactly of the two Oguns you mentioned ended up in Ire-Ekiti? The one time I visited the Ooni's palace, we were shown the shrine of Ogun Ladin and the person who attended to us ragaled us with tales of how Ogun Ladin would descend from the sky to give technology to the people of Ife.

It is widely believed that Ogun Lakaye is the warrior and probably the one who ended up in Ire. However, in the oriki of Ire-Ekiti are the lines:

Ìrèmògún, omo àwísè,
Omo alágbède àkókó ....

Would appreciate if you throw more light on which is which.

Egbon mi, you've already said it all.

Ogun lakaaye O'lomi ni'le f'eje we was the one who ended up in Ire-Ekiti.

The Ogun Ladin whose shrine you saw was known as the alagbede who forged money - 'Alagbede t'in ro Owo'

Both came at different times, maybe Ladin was Lakaaye's senior/tutor in blacksmithing and while Ladin specialized in forging items of wealth/opulence/money, Lakaaye took it a step ahead to forge war items - Ife was never known to have won any wars alone except for the last Ife-Modakeke conflict when Ife managed to reclaim a lot of its lands and helmed Modakeke from expanding further.

9jacrip:


Lagelu is recent.

Ife was said to have had a band of soldiers who attempted to war with Owu but they were badly defeated and had to go lounge somewhere around Iwo till Ijebu's came to help us as usual.

There are a number of other Ife 'warriors' but bro we both know 'ole' ni gbogbo wan except for Oranmiyan and Derin (these are 2 of the few Ife warriors).

there os a strong connection between Ijebu and Ife. Why did Ijebu always come to the rescue of Ife? Maybe they even fought along Ife during Ife/Modakeke conflict.

Kgdavid:


What we can agree upon is that while the Yorubas and Binis do share some cultural heritage, these two people groups remain quite distinct, and the notable inclusion of one yoruba prince in the genealogy of Benin rulers is not quite sufficient to erode those divisions.

In fact, the original edo people were already well established in the area, before the coming of oduduwa and the rule of Oranmiyan. You would be wrong to assume the fact of Oranmiyan ruling Benin for a short period extends to meaning that Ife in some way ruled Benin.

Further, Oranmiyan married a Bini woman and fathered the next Oba through her. The yoruba intrusion into bini rulership was altogether quite brief and did not in anyway result in the expansion of the Benin territory. This expansion in fact, would not occur until many centuries later, under Oba Ewuare, by which time any cultural significance of Oranmiyans brief stay in Benin, had long long been eroded. You see, the narrative of a "returning prince" as you put it, is of very little import in this debate. These territories were not ceded diplomatically; they were annexed economically and militarily. There's no two ways about it, the Benin empire was absolutely dominant, and yoruba influence in the Benin courts, sequel to the reclusion of Oranmiyan, was nil.

There is historical evidence that diplomatic relations may have existed between Benin and the Yoruba states in the Region such as Ife (of course), Owo, Ijebu and etc, but it is observable that Benin became more hostile and warlike towards these neighbors, as the slave trade flourished, expanding it's territories by military might in all directions, which, notably, was when Lagos was annexed.

And to set the record straight, Yoruba claims to Lagos are made tenuous for this reason, as it was the British who extinguished Benins grip on Lagos, turning it into their administrative base, and therefore providing some reasonable historical basis for the claim that Lagos is a no-mans land. But that is a debate for another day.

OLD BENIN WAS A CITY LIKE WARRI, OWO OR ONDO. IT WAS A YORUBA CITY SPEAKING YORUBA, RESIDENT PORTUGUESE SPOKE YORUBA. HOWEVER THERE WERE EDO SPEAKERS IN THE SUBURBS, WHEN BENIN FELL AS AN EMPIRE, THE PEOPLE FROM THE SUBURBS MIGRATED IN AND TOOK OVER THE CITY. THE BENIN EMPIRE IN ITSELF WAS A YORUBA EMPIRE WITH MANY NATIVE LANGUAGES INCLUDING EDO, IJAW, URHOBO, ORA AND ETC SO THE BENIN THAT HAD A POST IN LAGOS WERE YORUBA. THEN THE OONI WAS A MINOR ASKED TO STAY HOME BY HIS ELDER BROTHERS SOME OF WHOM HAD CHILDREN BEFORE HE WAS BORN. HE WAS ASKED TO STAY HOME AND BE PERFORMING RITUALS. IT WOULD BE WRONG TO CALL THE OONI KING OF YORUBAS


THE YORUBA SPHERE OF EARTH WAS A WORLD OF ITS OWN WITH NATIONS RECOGNISING ONE ILE IFE AS SOURCE, REPRESENTATIVE OF THE FIRST ABOVE WATER EARTH CIVILIZATION. THE IFE WAS PROTECTED BY SURROUNDING YORUBA STATES, IT WAS VERY OFTEN RELOCATED FOR VARIOUS REASON BUT SINCE EARTH BECAME HABITABLE, THERE HAVE ALWAYS BEEN A DULY RECOGNISED IFE ACCORDING TO YORUBA THOUGHT. THAT MAY BE WHAT EDOS CALL IGODOMIGODO. YORUBAS CALL IT IFE. THE ZERO POINT OF HUMAN CIVILIZATION.

IT IS SAD THAT PEOPLE DEBATE ANYHOW BUT LET PEOPLE KEEP HISTORY PASSED DOWN TO THEM. ALL ARE VALUABLE! BUT FOR EDOS TO CLAIM BENIN IS A PIRACY. EDO WAS A LANGUAGE LOCAL TO A DISTRICT OF THE BENIN EMPIRE WHILE YORUBA WAS THE LINGUA FRANCA THROUGHOUT THE LENGTH. EDO ISNT OF A HIGHER STATUS AS A LANGUAGE THAN ORA OF THE AFEMAI FOR INSTANCE AND ALL AFEMAI SPEAK YORUBA. ALL THE IJAW, URHOBO ETC USED TO SPEAK YORUBA IN THE PAST ALONG WITH THEIR LANGUAGE NEVER EDO, SO IT IS WRONG TO CLAIM THE BENIN EMPIRE FOR EDO. THAT WOULD BE A GLARING PIRACY!


THEN ADA (DO MI) IN YORUBA IS CUTLASS, IDA (RE DO) IS SWORD. I WOULD NOT KNOW THE TONATION OF THE ADA IN EDO BUT I BELIEVE IT RHYMES WITH CUTLASS OR MATCHETE IN YORUBA.

lawani:


OLD BENIN WAS A CITY LIKE WARRI, OWO OR ONDO. IT WAS A YORUBA CITY SPEAKING YORUBA, RESIDENT PORTUGUESE SPOKE YORUBA. HOWEVER THERE WERE EDO SPEAKERS IN THE SUBURBS, WHEN BENIN FELL AS AN EMPIRE, THE PEOPLE FROM THE SUBURBS MIGRATED IN AND TOOK OVER THE CITY. THE BENIN EMPIRE IN ITSELF WAS A YORUBA EMPIRE WITH MANY NATIVE LANGUAGES INCLUDING EDO, IJAW, URHOBO, ORA AND ETC SO THE BENIN THAT HAD A POST IN LAGOS WERE YORUBA. THEN THE OONI WAS A MINOR ASKED TO STAY HOME BY HIS ELDER BROTHERS SOME OF WHOM HAD CHILDREN BEFORE HE WAS BORN. HE WAS ASKED TO STAY HOME AND BE PERFORMING RITUALS. IT WOULD BE WRONG TO CALL THE OONI KING OF YORUBAS


THE YORUBA SPHERE OF EARTH WAS A WORLD OF ITS OWN WITH NATIONS RECOGNISING ONE ILE IFE AS SOURCE, REPRESENTATIVE OF THE FIRST ABOVE WATER EARTH CIVILIZATION. THE IFE WAS PROTECTED BY SURROUNDING YORUBA STATES, IT WAS VERY OFTEN RELOCATED FOR VARIOUS REASON BUT SINCE EARTH BECAME HABITABLE, THERE HAVE ALWAYS BEEN A DULY RECOGNISED IFE ACCORDING TO YORUBA THOUGHT. THAT MAY BE WHAT EDOS CALL IGODOMIGODO. YORUBAS CALL IT IFE. THE ZERO POINT OF HUMAN CIVILIZATION.

IT IS SAD THAT PEOPLE DEBATE ANYHOW BUT LET PEOPLE KEEP HISTORY PASSED DOWN TO THEM. ALL ARE VALUABLE! BUT FOR EDOS TO CLAIM BENIN IS A PIRACY. EDO WAS A LANGUAGE LOCAL TO A DISTRICT OF THE BENIN EMPIRE WHILE YORUBA WAS THE LINGUA FRANCA THROUGHOUT THE LENGTH. EDO ISNT OF A HIGHER STATUS AS A LANGUAGE THAN ORA OF THE AFEMAI FOR INSTANCE AND ALL AFEMAI SPEAK YORUBA. ALL THE IJAW, URHOBO ETC USED TO SPEAK YORUBA IN THE PAST ALONG WITH THEIR LANGUAGE NEVER EDO, SO IT IS WRONG TO CLAIM THE BENIN EMPIRE FOR EDO. THAT WOULD BE A GLARING PIRACY!


THEN ADA (DO MI) IN YORUBA IS CUTLASS, IDA (RE DO) IS SWORD. I WOULD NOT KNOW THE TONATION OF THE ADA IN EDO BUT I BELIEVE IT RHYMES WITH CUTLASS OR MATCHETE IN YORUBA.

The beauty of the internet is that anyone can wake up and type whatever they feel like. I have given you the true history of Benin-yoruba relations. Better learn and be enlightened.

Kgdavid:


The beauty of the internet is that anyone can wake up and type whatever they feel like. I have given you the true history of Benin-yoruba relations. Better learn and be enlightened.

WE ARE SAYING THESAME THING. IGODOMIGODO PREDATED BENIN. THAT WAS AN EDO KINGDOM BUT VERY SMALL. JUST A CITY STATE, THEN THEY MADE A YORUBA MAN KING WHO BUILT A NEW CAPITAL NAMED IFE IBINU NOW CALLED IBINI OR BENIN. THAT CAPITAL WAS A YORUBA CITY COMPARABLE TO WARRI, OWO, IGBOKODA EVEN IFE, ILESA, ONDO. THAT IS THE ISSUE. THEY BROUGHT YORUBA ART AND OTHER KNOWHOW TO THE NEW CITY WHICH BECAME THE HQ OF AN EMPIRE THAT BECAME OF WORLD REKNOWN!. SO, IN A WAY, YOU ARE RIGHT BECAUSE THE MAN DID NOT FIGHT THEM, THEY MADE HIM KING OF THEIR OWN VOLITION BUT THE EMPIRE HE CREATED WAS A YORUBA ONE. HIS PROGENITORS SPOKE YORUBA AND GAVE YORUBA NAMES TO THEIR NEW TOWNS ESTABLISHED ALL OVER. THE CAPITAL WAS OVERWHELMED BY PEOPLE FROM THE MAN'S PLACE. HOWEVER, EDO LANGUAGE AND CULTURE MUST BE PRESERVED AS WELL AS OTHERS ACROSS BOARD. THAT I BELIEVE, IS THE WAY FORWARD.

WOULD YOU SAY THE PEOPLE OF IGODOMIGODO MADE A MISTAKE BY MAKING A YORUBA THEIR KING? YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER THAT IS THE SOLE REASON BENIN CITY IS A MAJOR AFRICAN URBAN CENTER TODAY.