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Re: Atheism Has Ancient Roots And Is Not ‘modern Invention’, Claims New Text by JackBizzle: 5:20am On Feb 28, 2016 |
PastorAIO: What happened to the real PastorAIO? |
Re: Atheism Has Ancient Roots And Is Not ‘modern Invention’, Claims New Text by PastorAIO: 12:15pm On Feb 28, 2016 |
JackBizzle: He is became an advocate of simian right. |
Re: Atheism Has Ancient Roots And Is Not ‘modern Invention’, Claims New Text by Kay17: 7:23pm On Feb 28, 2016 |
italo: The Church apparently has an impenetrable veil barring responsibility. All the servants and agents but the Church is responsible! Ordinarily agents of the Church acting in contravention of its divine instructions ought to be punished. And there are hardly records to show that the Church reprimanded its servants for genocides committed in its name. |
Re: Atheism Has Ancient Roots And Is Not ‘modern Invention’, Claims New Text by Kay17: 7:38pm On Feb 28, 2016 |
@italo Isn't it hypocritical to apologize when you do not mean it. And isn't it worse to dress such hypocrisy up as a virtue?! |
Re: Atheism Has Ancient Roots And Is Not ‘modern Invention’, Claims New Text by italo: 11:20am On Feb 29, 2016 |
Kay17: The popes meant it...that's why it's virtuous. |
Re: Atheism Has Ancient Roots And Is Not ‘modern Invention’, Claims New Text by PastorAIO: 12:03pm On Feb 29, 2016 |
italo: Menh, it seems as if you now use the world as your standard. So if the world does it then it is okay for you to do it. That is just playing into the hands of anyone that looks at the Catholic Church and says, This is just another human institution. 'Human, all too human'. So if Army commits every atrocity in the book then it will be okay for Catholic church to do the same. If all the world are doing something that makes it okay for Catholic church to do so. 3 Likes |
Re: Atheism Has Ancient Roots And Is Not ‘modern Invention’, Claims New Text by italo: 2:06pm On Feb 29, 2016 |
PastorAIO: You just jump into a discussion and comment without properly analyzing the comment I was replying to. Is this the same PastorAIO I know or has someone hacked PastorAIO's account? Someone lied that it was Catholic majority countries that engaged in slavery...I pointed out that it was all the world. I never said slavery was okay. And I pointed out that Catholic majority countries is not equal to Catholic Church. She also point said a crusader king killed 3000. And I asked what was bad in killing 3000 terrorists in those circumstances. What should King Richard have done with them? The Crusade was a war...a just war. In war, people die. Enemies are captured. Captured enemies are sometimes killed if it is the only safe option. Then again, I don't know how you missed where I said that the Crusader king is not equal to catholic church. The Pope called a just crusade...it doesn't mean the actions of all the Christian soldiers were just. Please don't make waste time explaining these simple things to you of all people. You're smarter than this. |
Re: Atheism Has Ancient Roots And Is Not ‘modern Invention’, Claims New Text by chaosattractor(f): 2:08pm On Feb 29, 2016 |
Oh hello italo! I was wondering where you were. I'm sure you've seen the response I gave to your counterarguments. |
Re: Atheism Has Ancient Roots And Is Not ‘modern Invention’, Claims New Text by Kay17: 2:56pm On Feb 29, 2016 |
italo: An apology for the mere sake of politeness is not a sincere one. A genuine apology is a self acknowledgement of one's error or misdeed. It's a high mark of maturity. |
Re: Atheism Has Ancient Roots And Is Not ‘modern Invention’, Claims New Text by PastorAIO: 2:58pm On Feb 29, 2016 |
chaosattractor: Madame Chaos, I opening thread for you o! Please don't ignorance me. |
Re: Atheism Has Ancient Roots And Is Not ‘modern Invention’, Claims New Text by Kay17: 2:58pm On Feb 29, 2016 |
PastorAIO: Love the Nietzschean reference. 1 Like |
Re: Atheism Has Ancient Roots And Is Not ‘modern Invention’, Claims New Text by Kay17: 3:15pm On Feb 29, 2016 |
italo: It is a wonder that the Catholic Church endorsed slavery rather than use its spiritual jurisdiction against the practice of slavery. A further wonder that the execution of prisoners of war and refugees would constitute a just war! Ordinarily i wouldn't condemn the Church on modern standards and luxuries but you seem to insist absolving the Church on such standards. |
Re: Atheism Has Ancient Roots And Is Not ‘modern Invention’, Claims New Text by italo: 6:24pm On Feb 29, 2016 |
Kay17: False. The Church fought against slavery. Never endorsed it. Kay17: So what should King Richard have done to the 3000 jihadists? |
Re: Atheism Has Ancient Roots And Is Not ‘modern Invention’, Claims New Text by italo: 6:27pm On Feb 29, 2016 |
chaosattractor:My dear, sorry, you know our discussion is long and needs more reading and researching. See the other one you posted six links, I had to read them all. I'm answering you, pastor, Kay, jack, and others...can you do it? Pls be patient |
Re: Atheism Has Ancient Roots And Is Not ‘modern Invention’, Claims New Text by Kay17: 6:32pm On Feb 29, 2016 |
italo: Was there any papal injunction against slavery? Any excommunication against slavers? These 3000 people are said to be prisoners of war albeit jihadists. The tag jihadist used to label is not enough to murder them whilst defenceless and unarmed. It is true King Richard had no Geneva Convention to guide him on how to treat prisoners of war, yet it is criminal to justify their killings. |
Re: Atheism Has Ancient Roots And Is Not ‘modern Invention’, Claims New Text by wiegraf: 7:20pm On Feb 29, 2016 |
Best Oscar winner https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwdCIpbTN5g Good church getting some more loving attention |
Re: Atheism Has Ancient Roots And Is Not ‘modern Invention’, Claims New Text by italo: 10:41pm On Feb 29, 2016 |
Kay17:Papal Bull from Pope Eugene IV: <Sicut Dudum>, 1435 On January 13, 1435, Eugene IV issued from Florence the bull <Sicut Dudum>. Sent to Bishop Ferdinand, located at Rubicon on the island of Lanzarote, this bull condemned the enslavement of the black natives of the newly colonized Canary Islands off the coast of Africa. The Pope stated that after being converted to the faith or promised baptism, many of the inhabitants were taken from their homes and enslaved: [b] "They have deprived the natives of their property or turned it to their own use, and have subjected some of the inhabitants of said islands to perpetual slavery (<subdiderunt perpetuae servituti>, sold them to other persons and committed other various illicit and evil deeds against them.... Therefore We ... exhort, through the sprinkling of the Blood of Jesus Christ shed for their sins, one and all, temporal princes, lords, captains, armed men, barons, soldiers, nobles, communities and all others of every kind among the Christian faithful of whatever state, grade or condition, that they themselves desist from the aforementioned deeds, cause those subject to them to desist from them, and restrain them rigorously. And no less do We order and command all and each of the faithful of each sex that, within the space of fifteen days of the publication of these letters in the place where they live, that they restore to their pristine liberty all and each person of either sex who were once residents of said Canary Islands ... who have been made subject to slavery (<servituti subicere>. These people are to be totally and perpetually free and are to be let go without the exaction or reception of any money."[/b] The date of this Bull, 1435, is very significant. Nearly 60 years before the Europeans were to find the New World, we already had the papal condemnation of slavery as soon as this crime was discovered in one of the first of the Portuguese geographical discoveries. Eugene IV was clear in his intentions both to condemn the enslavement of the residents of the Canary Islands, and to demand correction of the injustice within 15 days. Those who did not restore the enslaved to their liberty in that time were to incur the sentence of excommunication ipso facto. With <Sicut Dudum>, Eugene was clearly intending to condemn the enslavement of the people of the Canaries and, in no uncertain terms, to inform the faithful that what was being condemned was what we would classify as gravely wrong. Thus, the unjust slavery that had begun in the newly found territories was condemned, condemned as soon as it was discovered, and condemned in the strongest of terms. Papal Bull from Pope Paul III: <Sublimis Deus>, 1537 The pontifical decree known as "The Sublime God" has indeed had an exalted role in the cause of social justice in the New World. Recently, authors such as Gustavo Gutierrez have noted this fact: 'The bull of Pope Paul III, <Sublimis Deus> (June 2, 1537), is regarded as the most important papal pronouncement on the human condition of the Indians." It is, moreover, addressed to all of the Christian faithful in the world, and not to a particular bishop in one area, thereby not limiting its significance, but universalizing it. <Sublimis Deus> was intended to be issued as the central pedagogical work against slavery. Two other bulls would be published to implement the teaching of <Sublimis,> one to impose penalties on those who fail to abide by the teaching against slavery, and a second to specify the sacramental consequences of the teaching that the Indians are true men. The first central teaching of this beautiful work is the universality of the call to receive the Faith and salvation: "And since mankind, according to the witness of Sacred Scripture, was created for eternal life and happiness, and since no one is able to attain this eternal life and happiness except through faith in our Lord Jesus Christ, it is necessary to confess that man is of such a nature and condition that he is capable to receive faith in Christ and that everyone who possesses human nature is apt for receiving such faith . . . Therefore the Truth Himself Who can neither deceive nor be deceived, when He destined the preachers of the faith to the office of preaching, is known to have said: 'Going, make disciples of all nations.' 'All,' he said, without any exception, since all are capable of the discipline of the faith." The teaching of <Sublimis> continued: "Seeing this and envying it, the enemy of the human race, who always opposes all good men so that the race may perish, has thought up a way, unheard of before now, by which he might impede the saving word of God from being preached to the nations. He has stirred up some of his allies who, desiring to satisfy their own avarice, are presuming to assert far and wide that the Indians of the West and the South who have come to our notice in these times be reduced to our service like brute animals, under the pretext that they are lacking the Catholic Faith. And they reduce them to slavery (<Et eos in servitutem redigunt>, treating them with afflictions they would scarcely use with brute animals." The common pretext of the allies of "the enemy of the human race," i.e. Satan, for enslaving the Indians was that they lacked the Faith. Some of the Europeans used the reasoning that converting the Indians should be accomplished by any means necessary, thus making the Faith an excuse for war and enslavement. Paul III stated that the practice of this form of servitude was "unheard of before now." This clearly indicates that the practice of enslaving an entire ethnic group of people—the Indians of South America—for no morally justifiable reason was indeed different from anything previously encountered. The second core teaching of <Sublimis Deus> which follows from this is the necessity of restoring and maintaining the liberty of the Indians: "Therefore, We, . . . noting that the Indians themselves indeed are true men and are not only capable of the Christian faith, but, as has been made known to us, promptly hasten to the faith' and wishing to provide suitable remedies for them, by our Apostolic Authority decree and declare by these present letters that the same Indians and all other peoples—even though they are outside the faith—who shall hereafter come to the knowledge of Christians have not been deprived or should not be deprived of their liberty or of their possessions. Rather they are to be able to use and enjoy this liberty and this ownership of property freely and licitly, and are not to be reduced to slavery, and that whatever happens to the contrary is to be considered null and void. These same Indians and other peoples are to be invited to the said faith in Christ by preaching and the example of a good life." Thus, we see that Eugene IV and Paul III did not hesitate to condemn the forced servitude of Blacks and Indians, and they did so once such practices became known to the Holy See. Their teaching was continued by Gregory XIV in 1591 and by Urban VIII in 1639. Indeed Urban, in his document <Commissum Nobis>, appealed to the teaching of his predecessors, particularly Paul III. The pontifical teaching was continued by the response of the Holy Office on March 20, 1686, under Innocent XI, and by the encyclical of Benedict XIV, <Immensa Pastorum>, on December 20, 1741. This work was followed by the efforts of Pius VII at the Congress of Vienna in 1815 to have the victors over Napoleon outlaw slavery. |
Re: Atheism Has Ancient Roots And Is Not ‘modern Invention’, Claims New Text by italo: 10:43pm On Feb 29, 2016 |
Kay17: Are you satisfied? Or you want more Papal Bulls? Or have you found another issue to criticize the Catholic Church for? |
Re: Atheism Has Ancient Roots And Is Not ‘modern Invention’, Claims New Text by italo: 10:46pm On Feb 29, 2016 |
Kay17: I asked you what King Richard should have done...you can't answer. All you do is complain. By what law was it criminal for Richard to kill 3000 Jihadists? Kay17s law? |
Re: Atheism Has Ancient Roots And Is Not ‘modern Invention’, Claims New Text by italo: 11:39pm On Feb 29, 2016 |
Kay17: apology Translate Button [uh-pol-uh-jee] noun, plural apologies. 1. a written or spoken expression of one's regret, remorse, or sorrow for having insulted, failed, injured, or wronged another One can, fail or injure someone...without doing wrong. In that case, an apology could be for the sake of politeness. 1 Like |
Re: Atheism Has Ancient Roots And Is Not ‘modern Invention’, Claims New Text by chaosattractor(f): 2:23am On Mar 01, 2016 |
PastorAIO: Oh sorry I just saw the thread! On anarcho-communism right? Hmmm...I don't know how I'll relate it to religion. Or you could just email me... |
Re: Atheism Has Ancient Roots And Is Not ‘modern Invention’, Claims New Text by italo: 6:47am On Mar 01, 2016 |
Kay17: There are such records. You just go around talking in ignorance. |
Re: Atheism Has Ancient Roots And Is Not ‘modern Invention’, Claims New Text by italo: 7:01am On Mar 01, 2016 |
chaosattractor: This thing doesn't need these long epistles. Truth goes straightforward while lies go round about. Here's your original statement: 1) It was Catholic-majority countries that specialized in chattel slavery. Accept that that statement is wrong...or prove that US, UK, African countries, Arabians etc were Catholic majority...before you divert to other things. N.b 1. Catholic majority countries is not equal to Catholic Church. 2. I never said it was okay for a few people in Catholic majority countries to do it because Atheists and other non-Catholics were doing it. 3. A few Catholic Clergy is not equal to the Catholic Church. Please read official Papal denunciation and condemnation of slavery in one of the responses I gave to Kay17. |
Re: Atheism Has Ancient Roots And Is Not ‘modern Invention’, Claims New Text by Kay17: 8:22am On Mar 01, 2016 |
italo: Your last post on papal bulls was well done and thought of. Yet you are sure the Church's position was unequivocal? There was no canonical law or papal injunction that approved slavery especially of enemies of the Church? |
Re: Atheism Has Ancient Roots And Is Not ‘modern Invention’, Claims New Text by italo: 8:46am On Mar 01, 2016 |
chaosattractor: A General is not equal to George Bush. A Nigerian soldier that raped a Liberian woman during the Ecological peace-kepping mission (which was a just war) is not equal to Ecowas that sent him. Secondly, George Bush is the commander-in-chief of the US armed-forces. The Pope never had such powers over King Richard. chaosattractor: Which historians had that consensus? What do you and the historians say Richard should have done? He should have released refuJihadists to Saladin so that they'll come back to kill him? The Muslim refuJihadists in Europe are already raping women, killing people and burning property. What makes you think the ones Richard captured were any better? ISIS has many child-jihadists. What makes you think Saladin didn't? chaosattractor:They don't apply in a just war. War is War! It isn't hypocrisy. What is hypocrisy is when you think you should be the one to interprete Christian teaching to the Catholic Church that brought Christianity to you. |
Re: Atheism Has Ancient Roots And Is Not ‘modern Invention’, Claims New Text by italo: 8:57am On Mar 01, 2016 |
chaosattractor:Post any text in those links that shows a proven crime by the Church or a conviction, not allegations, arrests, condemnations etc. Pope Francis auditing and overhauling the bank is not a proof of crime. . |
Re: Atheism Has Ancient Roots And Is Not ‘modern Invention’, Claims New Text by PastorAIO: 11:27am On Mar 01, 2016 |
Don't worry, I"ll twist it appropriately and it will be a religious topic. Wait for it. chaosattractor: |
Re: Atheism Has Ancient Roots And Is Not ‘modern Invention’, Claims New Text by Ubenedictus(m): 2:39pm On Mar 02, 2016 |
italo:gud research |
Re: Atheism Has Ancient Roots And Is Not ‘modern Invention’, Claims New Text by Kay17: 2:50pm On Mar 02, 2016 |
italo: Do you approve of the King Richard's actions as regard the refujihadists? |
Re: Atheism Has Ancient Roots And Is Not ‘modern Invention’, Claims New Text by Ubenedictus(m): 2:53pm On Mar 02, 2016 |
Kay17:hehehe, i tink those bulls were on chatel slavery, that of prisoners of war and servitude was different |
Re: Atheism Has Ancient Roots And Is Not ‘modern Invention’, Claims New Text by JackBizzle: 3:01pm On Mar 02, 2016 |
Ubenedictus: I will sell my left eye the day you say something truthful about the bad things the catholic church has done. We both know that Italo is not telling the full story- there are popes who supported slavery in their writings eg Pope Gregory 1 |
Re: Atheism Has Ancient Roots And Is Not ‘modern Invention’, Claims New Text by JackBizzle: 3:07pm On Mar 02, 2016 |
Ubenedictus: Prisoners of war? Indetured servitude? Which prisoners of war or economic migrants were Europeans taking slaves from Ethopia under the support of the catholic church. You and Italo should be lawyers. You can lie lie lie! |
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