My Thoughts And Questions About Religion - Religion (35) - Nairaland
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| Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by joseph1013: 11:01am On Mar 02, 2016 |
[b]CALLING TIME ON THE COSMOLOGICAL ARGUMENT There are various versions of the cosmological argument for God. Broadly they take the form: P1 Whatever begins to exist has a cause; P2 The universe began to exist; Therefore: C1 The universe has a cause. Some people go on to say, we call this cause God. Of course, this cause could be many things and does NOT take us to the particular god the tribes of Israel adopted as their own (which is where the people who use this argument normally want to go). So a more sophisticated version of this argument adds a second syllogism: P3 The universe has a cause (from C1); P4 That cause must be uncaused, changeless, immaterial, personal, outside of space and time and enormously powerful; Therefore: C2 A creator must exist that is uncaused, changeless, immaterial, personal, outside of space and time and enormously powerful. It is now a small step to argue that the Jewish God has these characteristics, therefore the Jewish god exists. This is sophistry on a grand scale! None of the characteristics of the cause of the universe offered in P4 are NECESSARILY true. Furthermore, even if they were true, they do not allow us to conclude that the Jewish god exists. We would have to be shown that there are no other gods that are said to have these characteristics. Even more problematical, we would have to be shown that there is no god with these characteristics that has yet to reveal itself to humans. Does anyone want to try this? The conclusion is clear, there could be a cause for the existence of the universe AND the Jewish god could have been invented in its entirety by Hebrew clerics some 3,000 years ago. This terribly flawed argument does nothing to dismiss that possibility. But here is the shocking thing. This argument is the argument of choice for the some of the most sophisticated apologists around today. They consider this to be their best shot at showing the Jewish god is real. If this is the best they have, the game is over. They have nothing.[/b] 2 Likes |
| Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by joseph1013: 8:45am On Mar 04, 2016 |
THAT VOICE IN YOUR HEAD Imagine you hear a man's voice in your head that you seem to have no control over. Someone is talking to you but there's no one in the room. And then you become convinced it's the voice of the world's most prolific serial killer--a man who killed babies and ordered the killing of babies; a man who incited genocide, encouraged rape and permitted slavery--he even had his own son killed. This is a ruthless man who kills without remorse. You can't help wondering if he will order you to commit a terrible crime--or if you will be his next victim. Surely this must be a heart-pounding, disturbing experience; one you would rather forget, but never can. Don't you wish he would go away and leave you in peace? After all, who in their right mind would want to be friends with God? 6 Likes 1 Share |
| Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by joseph1013: 8:34am On Mar 06, 2016 |
[b]THE TRUTH ABOUT ORGANISED RELIGION The truth about organised religion is, there's usually no single authority on dogma, and practitioners have quite an array of diverse interpretations of the sacred books. Due to the principle of nonfalsifiability, no religious person can be absolutely certain that his own beliefs are right. Each of the main sects in the Christian religion, for example, has finer points of doctrine that they may well be considered separate religions in their own right. In Christiandom, Catholicism teaches the concepts of eternal heaven and hell, and a transient purgatory, while Jehovah's witnesses believe only in an earthly paradise for the good guys and an eternal death for the bad guys. In the wake of the Shiite killings in Zaria, many people were astounded that as much distrust and suspicion exist between Shia and Sunni muslims, as between pentacostal Christians and Jehovah's witnesses, with each group claiming that theirs is the only true faith. Many muslims rarely acknowledge that the violent extremists are practitioners of Islam, and a good number feel that the Saudis, with their religious laws resembling those of ISIS, have perverted the true religion. Conversely, catholics have little regard for the charismatic prosperity preachers and faith healers of modern pentecostal Christianity. Muslims are divided on the issue of child marriage. As many as would be found insisting that it is unislamic, can also be found vehemently accepting it as one of the most important concepts in the Islamic religion. Roman catholics consider tithing to be false doctrine, while many pentecostals believe it is one of the most important pillars of Christian life. I routinely read dozens unequivocal, emotive online commentary lashing out in defence of Islam and northern Nigeria, when issues such as obstructing public thoroughfares, processions in the streets and early marriage, come into sharp focus in public conversations. Mind you, these intellectuals are the moderates who usually insist that Islam is a religion of peace, love and tolerance. However, when a Muslim is sentenced to death by the Sharia courts for blasphemy, denouncing their faith or converting to a new one, the defenders of Islam, more often than not, will usually not be bothered to respond, not to talk of forcefully denouncing such practices as unislamic. You would agree with me that folks who react angrily to criticism of Islam or Christianity while refusing to condemn Sharia beheadings and fraudulent pastopreneurs are especially retarded and as morally bankrupt as the knife wielding Boko Haram members and Reverend King fanatics. [/b] 7 Likes 2 Shares |
| Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by Richirich713: 3:06pm On Mar 06, 2016 |
I don't think people use the cosmological argument to show christianity (or Judaism) is true. It's only used to show that the cause of the universe is "uncaused, changeless, immaterial, personal, outside of space and time and enormously powerful". Christians use this with other arguments (resurrection of Jesus, moral argument etc) to show christianity is true. |
| Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by joseph1013: 8:19am On Mar 07, 2016 |
Richirich713: Irregardless of how you twist it, the message "CALLING TIME ON THE COSMOLOGICAL ARGUMENT" still suffices. |
| Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by joseph1013: 8:21am On Mar 07, 2016 |
...NO GOD BUT ALLAH... "There is no god but Allah..." This is the summary of Islam. There can be no other god. None. The only one god is Allah. It does not leave any room for doubt or compromise. It is the absolute truth. Do you see where this leads to immediately? There is no way Islam is ever going to be at peace with any other religion. If Islam coexists with any other religion, it is only temporary. Ultimately that statement must be brought to fruition. Allah cannot coexist with Yahweh. Or Thor. Or Sango. Or Amadioha. For this reason, apostasy must be punished by beheading, non believers cannot enter Mecca and the world must ultimately be ruled by a global jihadist caliphate. For there is no god but Allah. And Mohammed is his messenger. 3 Likes |
| Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by Richirich713: 12:17pm On Mar 07, 2016 |
joseph1013: I was just pointing out christians don't and shouldn't use the cosmological argument to "prove" the God of the bible is true. Muslims also use the cosmological argument, so can Jews, so can any monotheistic religion. Because the cosmological argument is only used to show that the cause of the universe is "uncaused, changeless, immaterial, personal, outside of space and time and enormously powerful" I'm not sure, but isn't this ^ William lane craig words, he for example makes it clear the cosmological argument doesn't prove the cause of the universe has to be the God of the bible. |
| Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by joseph1013: 1:54pm On Mar 07, 2016 |
Richirich713: But the cosmological argument does not show this. For it to show this, it has to provide proof. There is no proof of the cause of the universe. |
| Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by PastorAIO: 2:02pm On Mar 07, 2016 |
Is it possible for there to be more than one uncaused thing? And would it be possible for 2 or more uncaused things to do a collaboration on a project such as creating a universe? Richirich713: |
| Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by Richirich713: 2:15pm On Mar 07, 2016 |
joseph1013: That's where the Big Bang comes in, to show the universe is not eternal. |
| Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by joseph1013: 2:28pm On Mar 07, 2016 |
Richirich713: The Big Bang was not a "bang" or an explosion. It is just like saying that gravity makes things fall to the ground. It's an oversimplification. |
| Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by Richirich713: 2:39pm On Mar 07, 2016 |
joseph1013: There's absolutely nothing wrong about using the term Big Bang, most scientists use it ,evens though they understand it refers to an expansion and not explosion.
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| Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by Richirich713: 2:47pm On Mar 07, 2016 |
PastorAIO: I'm not so sure about this, but I would go with one since it makes less assumptions. |
| Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by joseph1013: 3:06pm On Mar 07, 2016 |
Richirich713: We are digressing. Here was your statement: "The cosmological argument is only used to show that the cause of the universe is 'uncaused, changeless, immaterial, personal, outside of space and time and enormously powerful'." I replied that there is no proof of this. How do you know that the cause is uncaused, changeless, immaterial, personal, outside of space and time and enormously powerful? How are you sure the cause is not CAUSES? |
| Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by PastorAIO: 4:58pm On Mar 07, 2016 |
Richirich713: The only thing that is less is the number of Uncaused things. it is just as much of an assumption to say there is only one as to say there are two, or three or a thousand. 3 Likes 2 Shares |
| Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by joseph1013: 8:09am On Mar 08, 2016 |
[b]ATHEISTS ARE INTOLERANT? The average religious Nigerian believes he/she has an inalienable right to evangelism. Hence, they go from house to house, door to door, room to room, office to office, organization to organization.....evangelizing Etc. The public transportation system is not spared...'good morning my brothers and sisters'. They shout,they preach, they threaten... They pass leaflets, they pass invites...often times they pass envelopes for donations. You thinks they are done. Nope! They take to the public address systems, television networks, radios, churches, crusades. They disturb the peace...you can barely have a goodnight sleep if one of their joints happen to be in your neighborhood. To cap it up, political institutions are on their side. They often dictate to a large extent what happens there. They don't think they are disturbing anyone. Mind you, this has been happening for centuries. In the past people were killed, often harassed if you dared try to criticize. The door opens; The average Nigerian atheist. They don't have your time. They have been psychologically beaten to suppression. They don't distribute leaflets or worse off carry public address system. They have found solace in the social media. They have decided to express themselves freely. Criticisms, satire, jokes and often times debates. These mode of communication does not disturb physically. Not an ounce of decibel is heard. You're free to ignore. You can also unfollow/unfriend/block the individual at your own volition. But you know what? The average religious folks wants it to stop, they say its intolerance. Some even claim its borne out of hate. The worst part is...they still want to maintain their own freedom of religious expression.[/b] 4 Likes 3 Shares |
| Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by joseph1013: 9:28am On Mar 09, 2016 |
YOU SHOULDN'T BE PROUD... It's interesting how many God-believers come here with the self-confident and arrogant attitude that they will show this foolish heathen how he has missed the OBVIOUS evidence that God exists. It's equally interesting how quickly that arrogance evaporates when they are pressed to explain why they believe the Jewish god is real and cannot. Or when they offer tired, fallacious arguments that are as easily squished as ants. Believing extraordinary things without evidence is nothing to be arrogant about; rather it is something to be ashamed of. Believe in God, if you like--it may bring you great comfort, but it is certainly nothing to be proud of. 7 Likes 3 Shares |
| Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by joseph1013: 2:13pm On Mar 10, 2016 |
[b]ASKING THE RIGHT QUESTION I get it. I can see why people believe in gods. Firstly, there is the promise of supernatural help for yourself, your family, your country (even for your football team). There is also the prospect of avoiding an afterlife of eternal agony and gaining unending bliss. And of course, life is so much easier if you avoid hostility and rejection from your family and community. So I get it--these good things are SO desirable that many people don't worry too much that there is no evidence their god actually exists. There is no need to think to be a god-believer--in fact it's much easier not to. But what about atheists? What motivates them? Do they enjoy family conflict? Do they prefer to reject the supernatural help on offer? Do they relish the prospect of burning for ever? No, I don't think so. To face all these potential disasters, you really HAVE to think--people rarely become atheists on a whim. So atheists have to think and theists don't have to... But, hold on, what about those theists who do think? Why do they continue to believe in a god when there is no evidence? I suggest this is a function of HOW you think. If you start with the question, "How can I justify my belief in God?", you may find plenty of reasons that appear to be adequate. However, if you start by asking "Can we be sure God is real?" you will be hard pressed to find any evidence at all (although you may find plenty of reasons to doubt it). Sometimes, the way you ask the question changes the answer.[/b] 4 Likes |
| Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by joseph1013: 8:01am On Mar 11, 2016 |
[b]I THINK I HEAR YOU LORD Many of the most convinced God-believers rest their belief, not on sophisticated philosophical arguments, but on something much simpler. They believe they hear the voice of God. This is a private voice--other people in the room cannot hear it. It exists only in the believer's mind. But there is a fatal problem with this "evidence". Millions of people are equally convinced that a wide variety of different gods talk to them. This phenomenon is so ubiquitous that we have to conclude either, that the world is teeming with gods, or the human brain has the ability to manufacture these voices and fool us into believing they come from outside of us, when in reality they come from inside. So, these believers need a valid way to show that the voices they hear are from the god of Abraham and not from another supernatural source, such as Satan posing as God, and not from deep within their own brains. I have yet to meet a believer who has a way to determine the real source of the voices they perceive. If they cannot do this, not only should I not believe their claim but neither should they![/b] 1 Like |
| Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by joseph1013: 7:02am On Mar 14, 2016 |
[b]MY FELLOW COUNTRYMEN ACTUALLY GLOAT OVER THE DEATH OF A GAYMAN? This weekend, a story went viral on the internet. In Ondo State, a mob descended on a guy because he was gay. They beat him to a pulp & he was rushed to the hospital but he died of internal bleeding in the hospital. His gay partner who is a popular politician escaped for dear life & they've gone about destroying his properties. Then fools trooped to social media to gloat about the guy's death & celebrate their society's holy cleansing. Two of such fools even went to the late guy's Facebook wall to write express their orgasmic pleasure over his death & post the gory pictures of his corpse. They said we should all learn a lesson from the mob action. No wonder someone said we're in a zoo. I'm not a homosexual. I'm even not supposed to tell you as it's not your business. What I do in my privacy is my problem, not yours. I'm telling you so that you will put what I want to say in a proper perspective. We're a sorry lot around here. Before the religions from the Arab Peninsula arrived, historical records told us that Africans were gays & they weren't disturbed by their fellow Africans. Now the imported religions have twisted our reasoning & turned us to fierce brutes. Of course, both the Bible & the Quran advise that homosexuals be stoned dead. These Africans here have only carried out what they read in the scriptures imposed upon them by the foreigners.The antigay law enacted in Nigeria was the height of insanity. And do you know that it was the fastest law ever passed by our national assembly? And yes, ever since we made the law, our economy, health, infrastructure & security have improved immensely. Right? This is why I somehow believe that organized religion has a way (even if only subliminal) of making people lose their humanity & morality. Most religious people I interacted with concerning the antigay law (and that includes the so-called moderate Muslims) have either been in total support of the draconian law or been indifferent about it. That tells you what happens to people when they embrace a religious ideology. In contrast, no single irreligious person that I know of has been anything but against the law. You see the difference now? All the countries where homosexuality is criminalized are less developed than the countries where homosexuality is decriminalized. If that doesn't tell you something, then I don't know how to help you. Nigeria is a country of bigots, hypocrites, & religious extremists, just like most fellow underdeveloped countries the world over. Why a country of extremists is complaining about extremism baffles me. Is it out of place that we have Boko Haram? I still do not understand how what two consenting adults do with each other should incur the wrath of a progressive society. And I will never understand it. I'm sorry for the dead guy & I wish that his family members (if they're not homophobic idiots too) have the fortitude to bear the irreparable loss. And as for these idiots, let them continue. The days of their predominance are numbered.[/b] 5 Likes 2 Shares |
| Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by joseph1013: 10:38am On Mar 15, 2016 |
THE ATHEISTS OF ABRAHAM There are only three possibilities: there are either no gods, there is one god or there is more than one god. Christians and Muslims typically consider only the first two options--for them it's as if the third option does not exist. But it does. And these believers implicitly make the claim that no gods exist other than the god of Abraham. Most atheists only say, there is no reason to believe any gods exist but Christians/Muslims make the positive claim that no gods exist (other than Yahweh/Allah). This makes Christians and Muslims more atheistic than atheists. Strange but true... 3 Likes 1 Share |
| Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by joseph1013: 2:13pm On Mar 15, 2016 |
[b]HOW SCIENCE TRUMPS RELIGION Nothing is known by science because someone dreamed it or learned it in a moment of revelation. Of course, ideas do come to people in unexpected ways but, in science, all such ideas have to be thoroughly challenged and tested and, if they fail a challenge, they are discarded. Religion is different though. EVERYTHING accepted by religion comes from dreams or moments of revelation. There is no long process of challenge and testing--revelation is accepted, not because it can be shown to be true, but because it is said to come from a god. Once an idea is accepted in science, it will continue to be challenged and, perhaps, refined and improved. It's very tough being an idea in science. Once an idea is accepted in religion, the high priests circle the wagons to defend it; they indoctrinate it into children and may even threaten violence or other consequences against those who challenge it. Religions have two more weapons in their armoury: apologists, who seek to explain away or deny contradictions and contrary evidence; and theologians who, inter alia, develop arguments to justify their religion's teachings--arguments that are invariably controversial and widely disputed as logically or evidentially unsound. There is one more difference between science and religion. Science, despite extensive collection of evidence and arduous testing, never claims to have found the truth--science only says it has the best available explanation. However, the proof of science is that we all use its fruits in technology every day. Religion is not so modest. Despite employing a wholly defective methodology, religions claim to have found the truth. All religions make this claim even though there are hundreds of religions all making contradictory truth claims. This fact alone demonstrates the failure of the religious methodology. So, science vs religion; only one of these methodologies work... and you know which one that is, don't you?[/b] 6 Likes 1 Share |
| Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by joseph1013: 12:12pm On Mar 16, 2016 |
[b]CHECKMATE CHRISTIANITY The first people to adopt Yahweh as their god were the 12 tribes of Israel around 1,000 BCE or before. Apparently, Yahweh spoke to prophets among these tribesmen and inspired them to write about how He created the universe, the Earth and all life on the planet. They also wrote how they were guided and helped by Yahweh and they documented the laws said to have come from Yahweh. These stories can be found in the Tanakh and are the foundation of the Jewish religion. About 1,000 years later a Messiah, now known as Jesus, is said to have been born. He was sent by Yahweh and a second religion grew up around him--Christianity. Christians referred to the old stories as the Old Testament and wrote new stories about Jesus which they called the New testament. Together these testaments form the Bible. So we have one god and two religions. Let's think about this. If the Israelites made up their stories about God, both religions must be made up. But, let's assume for now, the Israelites more or less faithfully recorded what they learned from God. If so, Judaism is a true religion worshipping a real god. What about Christianity? If Judaism is true can Christianity also be true? I don't think it can. Central to Christian theology is the idea of original sin. It is the reason Jesus was sent to us. If there was no original sin, there is no role for Jesus. However, Judaism rejects the notion of original sin. Equally important to Christianity is the idea of salvation through Jesus. Only by accepting Jesus as your Lord and saviour can sin be forgiven so you may enter heaven. Judaism does not accept this. Judaism says atonement for sin is achieved by seeking forgiveness from God through prayer and repentance. Indeed, Judaism sets aside a day each year for repentance known as Yom Kippur. In order to accomplish his mission to forgive sin, Christianity says Jesus is divine and a part of a triune God (God, Jesus & The Holy Spirit). Judaism does not accept that Jesus was divine nor that God has a triune nature. There are many other differences between Judaism and Christianity but, these three fundamental theological differences alone are enough for us to conclude, if Judaism is true, Christianity cannot be. This then is the quandary for Christians, if Judaism is made up, Christianity cannot be true but, if Judaism is true, Christianity still cannot be true. Where does this leave Christianity? Read that last sentence again. Take all the time you need. I would say this is "Checkmate Christianity", wouldn't you?[/b] 6 Likes 3 Shares |
| Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by joseph1013: 8:50am On Mar 17, 2016 |
[b]THE BIBLE'S BIG MISTAKE If God created life on Earth, I think I know how he did it. He started by making a simple, single-celled creature. His first shot at life were cells that didn't even have a nucleus but they could utilise external sources of energy and could replicate. God tinkered with these cells for the next two billion years making hundreds of tiny improvements. During this time, one of the important ideas he had was to provide a mechanism for photosynthesis (obtaining energy from sunlight). Then he had a brainwave. Reproduction would be much more efficient if the genetic material was enclosed in a membrane within the cell--he invented the nucleus. He tinkered again for over 500 million years. During that time he created many different versions of his creatures but they were all fundamentally similar. But one innovation would prove critical--he introduced sexual reproduction. This greatly increased diversity which made life more resilient and increased the rate at which life forms changed. Four hundred million years later, he came up with the idea of combining several single-celled creatures to form one multi-celled creature. This was a very important idea--ultimately it allowed humans to exist. That's probably why God took 3.3 billion years to figure out how to do it--he didn't want to make any mistakes. That innovation 800 million years ago was decisive. And it seemed to give God renewed creative energy. Diversity and complexity accelerated rapidly. He created animals with bi-lateral symmetry, legs, a central nervous system, a spine, a brain, eyes and more. This orgy of creation continued and just over a million years ago he came up with us, homo sapiens. It all worked out in the end but it was a very inefficient process, probably more than 95% of the species God created were flops and became extinct. The process was a bit like a child with a chemistry set using trial and error to see what useful chemicals he could make. It's a pity the Bible didn't describe the process like this. But it didn't, it said God made all species in a single day. It's hard to imagine how it could have been more wrong. If the Bible had described it as I have, it would have been consistent with the mountain of evidence we've uncovered and we would probably all believe God is real by now. Instead, only the young, the undereducated and the delusional believe God is real, the rest of us rely on hard evidence to determine how life evolved. And that shows the Bible to be a book of fiction and not of fact.[/b] 3 Likes 1 Share |
| Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by joseph1013: 11:31am On Mar 18, 2016 |
THE NULL HYPOTHESIS If you believe in a god and think you are rational, here's how to check that your are. Start by assuming your god does NOT exist and your religion is FICTION. This is your null hypothesis. Then look for validated evidence that definitively proves your assumptions wrong. If you succeed, you are justified in your belief. If you fail, stick with your assumptions until you can falsify them. Welcome to reason. It's nice here! |
| Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by Nobody: 11:50am On Mar 18, 2016 |
joseph1013:I think I know who you are.  Did you recently take a break from FB? |
| Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by Nobody: 11:51am On Mar 18, 2016 |
ooman:Bro, u still alive? 1 Like |
| Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by joseph1013: 12:05pm On Mar 18, 2016 |
sonOfLucifer:I refuse to answer your question. I'm scared of Lucifer. |
| Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by Nobody: 12:06pm On Mar 18, 2016 |
| Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by joseph1013: 11:56am On Mar 20, 2016 |
FOOD FOR THOUGHT TO THE RELIGIOUS BIGOTS If the Chinese had colonized Africans like the Europeans did, some of you would have been Buddhists and claimed it's the best religion. 5 Likes 1 Share |
| Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by Nobody: 12:33am On Mar 21, 2016 |
following |
| Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by Nobody: 12:36am On Mar 21, 2016 |
joseph1013:extremely true,someone asked me this in my christian days i wanted to fight him/but now i understand 1 Like 1 Share |
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