I need an answer

I recently have a discussion with a man who claim to have bible knowledge but I discovered he can't think properly .

It happened that we discuss the subject of Resurrection in which I question the purpose of a ressurection if people go to heaven or hell when they die . but instead of answering my question , he called me an atheist .

The dead end came when he told me resurrection is the bringing back to live of the individuals dead human Flesh . not the person himself

Thus I questioned this :

- how could Samuel appear to Saul as an old man , from where did he get the flesh of an old man since the resurrection hasn't occur ? (He cited this for me earlier as a prove of afterlife ) but at that point he couldn't answer ... I Need an answer if u can help him


- from where did the rich man in Luke 16 get his Flesh since the Resurrection is yet to occur ? (He told me this is a true life story , thus i need an answer to this !!!! cos the man kept labelling me atheist rather than addressing my questions

Can u answer me ?

Jozzy4:
I need an answer

I recently have a discussion with a man who claim to have bible knowledge but I discovered he can't think properly .

It happened that we discuss the subject of Resurrection in which I question the purpose of a ressurection if people go to heaven or hell when they die . but instead of answering my question , he called me an atheist .

The dead end came when he told me resurrection is the bringing back to live of the individuals dead human Flesh . not the person himself

Thus I questioned this :

- how could Samuel appear to Saul as an old man , from where did he get the flesh of an old man since the resurrection hasn't occur ? (He cited this for me earlier as a prove of afterlife ) but at that point he couldn't answer ... I Need an answer if u can help him


- from where did the rich man in Luke 16 get his Flesh since the Resurrection is yet to occur ? (He told me this is a true life story , thus i need an answer to this !!!! cos the man kept labelling me atheist rather than addressing my questions

Can u answer me ?

that topic is a parable, just as many orders.but most of them jesus uses them to explain future event of end times. On Samuel, if you go through Bible terminology you understand it well.

There is a spirit body just as well as physical body. One major difference is that the spirit body can't die. In the spirit body you can sleep for weeks or even months in earth time in a single sleep and stay awake for many months without feeling the need to sleep........

I hope have been helpful..

The notion of the eternal torment of the wicked can only be defended by accepting the Greek view of the immortality and indestructibility of the soul, a concept which is foreign to Scripture.

Everlasting torture is intolerable from a moral point of view, because it pictures God acting like a bloodthirsty monster who maintains an everlasting Auschwitz for his enemies, whom he does not even allow to die.

Jozzy4:
I need an answer

I recently have a discussion with a man who claim to have bible knowledge but I discovered he can't think properly .

It happened that we discuss the subject of Resurrection in which I question the purpose of a ressurection if people go to heaven or hell when they die . but instead of answering my question , he called me an atheist .

The dead end came when he told me resurrection is the bringing back to live of the individuals dead human Flesh . not the person himself

Thus I questioned this :

- how could Samuel appear to Saul as an old man , from where did he get the flesh of an old man since the resurrection hasn't occur ? (He cited this for me earlier as a prove of afterlife ) but at that point he couldn't answer ... I Need an answer if u can help him


- from where did the rich man in Luke 16 get his Flesh since the Resurrection is yet to occur ? (He told me this is a true life story , thus i need an answer to this !!!! cos the man kept labelling me atheist rather than addressing my questions

Can u answer me ?

Your question is what is wrong. You made an unscriptural assumption and you're asking questions based on your wrong aaumption.

You said where did Samuel and the Rich man get their flesh from if resurrection had not occured.

Where is it in those passages that claims or suggests that Samuel and the rich man still had flesh after they died? Nowhere in those passages suggested so.

When people die, their bodies decay and becomes soil again, while their souls and spirits depart.

After Samuel and the rich man died they became only spirits with spirit bodies. Spirits don't have flesh or blood or bones. Spirit bodies are like that of angels.

1Cor 15v44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Luke 24v39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Shalom

Besides, the witch of endor purported to call up the spirit not the body of Samuel.

newnature:
The notion of the eternal torment of the wicked can only be defended by accepting the Greek view of the immortality and indestructibility of the soul, a concept which is foreign to Scripture.

This is what happens when we replace the Scriptures with human reasoning.

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Matthew 25:41

pls answer:

What would be the final end of the devil and his angels? (Remember spirits dont die)

Scholar8200:
This is what happens when we replace the Scriptures with human reasoning.

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Matthew 25:41

pls answer:

What would be the final end of the devil and his angels? (Remember spirits dont die)

To interpret Lazarus and the rich man as representative of what will happen to the saved and the unsaved immediately after death, means to milk the parable for lessons foreign to its original intent. If the narrative is an actual description of the intermediate state, then it must be true in fact and consistent in detail. But if the parable is figurative, then only the moral truth to be conveyed need concern us.

newnature:


To interpret Lazarus and the rich man as representative of what will happen to the saved and the unsaved immediately after death, means to milk the parable for lessons foreign to its original intent. If the narrative is an actual description of the intermediate state, then it must be true in fact and consistent in detail. But if the parable is figurative, then only the moral truth to be conveyed need concern us.

Not when the scenarios used has many literal cross references all over the Bible!

Scholar8200:
Not when the scenarios used has many literal cross references all over the Bible!

Contenders for literalism suppose that the rich man and Lazarus were disembodied souls, destitute of bodies. Yet the rich man is described as having eyes that see and a tongue that speaks, as well as seeking relief from the finger of Lazarus, all real body parts.

newnature:


Contenders for literalism suppose that the rich man and Lazarus were disembodied souls, destitute of bodies. Yet the rich man is described as having eyes that see and a tongue that speaks, as well as seeking relief from the finger of Lazarus, all real body parts.

Of course!!! The souls of those that were beheaded in Revelation 6 had mouths to cry, "how long"! Revelations 6:9,10

ayoku777:


Your question is what is wrong. You made an unscriptural assumption and you're asking questions based on your wrong aaumption.

You said where did Samuel and the Rich man get their flesh from if resurrection had not occured.

Where is it in those passages that claims or suggests that Samuel and the rich man still had flesh after they died? Nowhere in those passages suggested so.

When people die, their bodies decay and becomes soil again, while their souls and spirits depart.


After Samuel and the rich man died they became only spirits with spirit bodies. Spirits don't have flesh or blood or bones. Spirit bodies are like that of angels.

1Cor 15v44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.


Luke 24v39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.


Shalom

my own question is, where do they depart to when man dies.(pls include scripture)

dolphinheart:


my own question is, where do they depart to when man dies.(pls include scripture)

If they are born again they go to be with the Lord.

According to this scripture;

Philippians 1v23 -For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

And this;

2Cor 5v6 -Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight)

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

So souls of believers go to be with the Lord in heaven when they depart the body in death. And that of sinners go to hell.

Shalom

ayoku777:


If they are born again they go to be with the Lord.

According to this scripture;

Philippians 1v23 -For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

And this;

2Cor 5v6 -Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight)

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

So souls of believers go to be with the Lord in heaven when they depart the body in death. And that of sinners go to hell.

Shalom

there are two issues I have with your answer, the scriptures you mentioned never said the soul will do this or that, the word "soul" is not even mentioned there, so you view that those verses is talking about the soul is based on assumptions right! If not, then you need to still provide scriptures that support where the soul goes to.

2. you left out the other thing that you say will depart, which is the spirit. you did not say anything about the spirit.
The verses you quoted can be applied to the spirit, since you say it will depart too. but that will leave the soul departure unanswered . hope you can now see the problem.

I await your response.

dolphinheart:


there are two issues I have with your answer, the scriptures you mentioned never said the soul will do this or that, the word "soul" is not even mentioned there, so you view that those verses is talking about the soul is based on assumptions right! If not, then you need to still provide scriptures that support where the soul goes to.

2. you left out the other thing that you say will depart, which is the spirit. you did not say anything about the spirit.
The verses you quoted can be applied to the spirit, since you say it will depart too. but that will leave the soul departure unanswered . hope you can now see the problem.

I await your response.

Haba, the scriptures are self-explanatory na.

2Cor 5v8 -We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be ABSENT FROM THE BODY, and to be present with the Lord.

When he says "to be absent from the body", which part of him gets absent from the body at death to be present with the Lord? His ears and nose? Ofcourse it is his soul and spirit.

We all know man is spirit, soul and body.

1Thess 5v23 -...and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

And Jesus also said it that it is only the body that dies or can be killed by man, and that the soul stays alive and can only be sent to the lake of fire.

Matthew 10v28 -And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Its clear the soul stays alive even after the body is killed, so when Paul talks about departing from the body after death, it can only be the soul -the part of man that stays alive after the body is killed.

And this verse confirms it fully that it is the soul that indeed departs from the body after death.

1Kings 17v21 -And he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried unto the Lord, and said, O Lord my God, I pray thee, let this CHILD'S SOUL come into him again.

22 And the Lord heard the voice of Elijah; and THE SOUL OF THE CHILD came into him again, and he revived.

Can you see? The boy's soul departed from his body after death. Is this proof enough now?

And for your other question. Soul and Spirit, most times are used interchangeably in the new testament, because they never get separated even after the death of the body. They are inseparable even though the two are distinct.

The spirit controls the life of the person and the soul controls the consciousness of the person. And where one is the other is, even after death.

It was both the soul and spirit of Jesus that went to sheol after He died on the cross.

Acts 2v27 - Because thou wilt not leave MY SOUL IN HELL, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

1Peter 3v18 -18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by THE SPIRIT: 19 BY WHICH ALSO HE WENT and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Both His soul and spirit departed into sheol after He died on the cross until His resurrection.

The spirit and the soul are distinct, but they depart the body together after death to heaven or hell.

All these verses are very self-explanatory. If they look confusing, its because you want them to mean something else other than the obvious.

Shalom!

ayoku777:


Haba, the scriptures are self-explanatory na.

2Cor 5v8 -We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be ABSENT FROM THE BODY, and to be present with the Lord.

When he says "to be absent from the body", which part of him gets absent from the body at death to be present with the Lord? His ears and nose? Ofcourse it is his soul and spirit.

We all know man is spirit, soul and body.

1Thess 5v23 -...and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

And Jesus also said it that it is only the body that dies or can be killed by man, and that the soul stays alive and can only be sent to the lake of fire.

Matthew 10v28 -And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Its clear the soul stays alive even after the body is killed, so when Paul talks about departing from the body after death, it can only be the soul -the part of man that stays alive after the body is killed.

And this verse confirms it fully that it is the soul that indeed departs from the body after death.

1Kings 17v21 -And he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried unto the Lord, and said, O Lord my God, I pray thee, let this CHILD'S SOUL come into him again.

22 And the Lord heard the voice of Elijah; and THE SOUL OF THE CHILD came into him again, and he revived.

Can you see? The boy's soul departed from his body after death. Is this proof enough now?

And for your other question. Soul and Spirit, most times are used interchangeably in the new testament, because they never get separated even after the death of the body. They are inseparable even though the two are distinct.

The spirit controls the life of the person and the soul controls the consciousness of the person. And where one is the other is, even after death.

It was both the soul and spirit of Jesus that went to sheol after He died on the cross.

Acts 2v27 - Because thou wilt not leave MY SOUL IN HELL, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

1Peter 3v18 -18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by THE SPIRIT: 19 BY WHICH ALSO HE WENT and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Both His soul and spirit departed into sheol after He died on the cross until His resurrection.

The spirit and the soul are distinct, but they depart the body together after death to heaven or hell.

All these verses are very self-explanatory. If they look confusing, its because you want them to mean something else other than the obvious.

Shalom!

good. we will come back to look deeper into this later.
But pls can you explain these two verse and link them to your views that spirits go to hell.

psalms 146:4
When their spirit departs, they return to the ground; on that very day their plans come to nothing.

eccl 12 :7
and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

You can also add this or we will add it into the discussion later: do animals also have souls and spirits? and where do they go to when they die.
sorry for digressing o.

dolphinheart:


good. we will come back to look deeper into this later.
But pls can you explain these two verse and link them to your views that spirits go to hell.

psalms 146:4
When their spirit departs, they return to the ground; on that very day their plans come to nothing.

eccl 12 :7
and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

You can also add this or we will add it into the discussion later: do animals also have souls and spirits? and where do they go to when they die.
sorry for digressing o.

You didn't really digress. These are inclusive points in what we've been discussing.

Psalm 146v4 - His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

This verse is straight forward. It said when the spirit of a man leaves, he returns to the earth.

It is clear from the context of this verse that the "he" that "returneth to his earth" is the body of the man that was from the dust, not the man's soul or spirit.

These verses establish that claim;

Eccl 12v7 - Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

And these;

Genesis 3v19 -In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

So the part of man that returns to dust or to the earth is the part of man that was taken from dust -his human body.

So the verse actually interpretes;

Psalm 146v4 - His breath (or spirit) goeth forth (leaves), he (the body) returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. - (words in bracket mine)

Now, as to the explanation of the other verse;

Eccl 12v7 -Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

That is very true. After death, every spirit returns to God who gave it -for judgment. Now, whether they will be sent to heaven or be cast intto hell after judgment is another issue.

Scriptures says;

Hebrews 9v27 -And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

After death, the next thing is judgment. When someone dies, his spirit returns to God for judgment; they will be judged relative to their right-standing with God.

It is obviously clear that some are sent to hell after judgment, just as the story of the rich man and Lazarus made very clear.

The rich man's soul ended up in hell.

Luke 16v22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; AND IN HELL he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

So, that every spirit returns to God after death for judgment is true (according to Eccl 12v7 and Hebrews 9v27); and that some souls are sent into hell after judgment is also true (according to Luke 16v23).

The word of God is one, they don't contradict eachother. When two scriptures seem contradictory, it is because we are yet to find the adjoining scripture that reconciles the two verse.

(Note: Some people always argue that the story of the rich man and Lazarus is a parable, so it should not be understood literally but symbolically.

That's wrong, it is not a parable. Jesus is never precise about the information in His parables as to specifically give the name of the individual..

Luke 16v20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus,

Jesus gave the name because there was truly such a person. It was a true story.

And even if we are to give the argument the benefit of the doubt and say the story is a parable; what then is a parable?

A parable is the use of practical facts of life to explains spiritual and kingdom truths. This means then that the story of the rich man and Lazarus is a fact of like. That souls stay alive, conscious and animate after death is a fact of life; and that some souls go to hell after death is a fact of life.

So however we approach the story, whether as a true story or as a parable, it means the story must be understood literally.)

Shalom

ayoku777:

Where is it in those passages that claims or suggests that Samuel and the rich man still had flesh after they died?

This is what you ought to have asked instead of making an assumption of nowhere sugested or answering what you dont understand

New American Standard Bible
He said to her, "What is his form?" And she said, " An old man is coming up, and he is wrapped with a robe. " And Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground and did homage. : 1samuel 28:14

The phrase "OLD man " suggested what ? I hope you won't tell me spirits are old men .



Secondly :

"
and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up HIS EYES and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side." Luke 16:23

Note: his Eyes, the rich man eye

Furthermore

"And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’" luke 16:24

Note: he begs for water , tell me why a spirit needs water in d first place ? Or to cool his tongue ? Is a tongue not full flesh ?

Address this pls

Jozzy4:


- how could Samuel appear to Saul as an old man , from where did he get the flesh of an old man since the resurrection hasn't occur ? (He cited this for me earlier as a prove of afterlife ) but at that point he couldn't answer ... I Need an answer if u can help him


- from where did the rich man in Luke 16 get his Flesh since the Resurrection is yet to occur ? (He told me this is a true life story , thus i need an answer to this !!!! cos the man kept labelling me atheist rather than addressing my questions

Can u answer me ?

Firstly it's just an appearance , not his real body. Secondly it's believed by many scholars that it was a familiar spirit and not samuel . The reason was that if God refuse to talk with Saul by dream ,vision urim and Thurm why would he used the medium of a witch to answer Saul . Also having in mind that one of the reason Saul died was because he consulted a witch


1 Chronicles 10:13
Saul died for his disobedience to the Lord and because he had consulted a medium,

Scholar8200:
Of course!!! The souls of those that were beheaded in Revelation 6 had mouths to cry, "how long"! Revelations 6:9,10

That means you believe that death can ride a horse while Hades run after him ..

That stars actually fell down on earth kudos man

Tosinex:
In the spirit body you can sleep for weeks or even months in earth time in a single sleep and stay awake for many months without feeling the need to sleep........

I hope have been helpful..

Your post is a complete shit, you know ?

Jozzy4:
I need an answer

I recently have a discussion with a man who claim to have bible knowledge but I discovered he can't think properly .

It happened that we discuss the subject of Resurrection in which I question the purpose of a ressurection if people go to heaven or hell when they die . but instead of answering my question , he called me an atheist .

The dead end came when he told me resurrection is the bringing back to live of the individuals dead human Flesh . not the person himself

Thus I questioned this :

- how could Samuel appear to Saul as an old man , from where did he get the flesh of an old man since the resurrection hasn't occur ? (He cited this for me earlier as a prove of afterlife ) but at that point he couldn't answer ... I Need an answer if u can help him


- from where did the rich man in Luke 16 get his Flesh since the Resurrection is yet to occur ? (He told me this is a true life story , thus i need an answer to this !!!! cos the man kept labelling me atheist rather than addressing my questions

Can u answer me ?

Those people did not reappear in flesh. Flesh is what you and I live in. After death, it gets eaten by worms and dies. Only Christ's body, and Enoch escaped that(but they were still transformed into a different more powerful kind of bofy). The flesh is a form of power too, and it restrains the spirit. It restrains the power of life and is a direct result of the hold of death as a spiritual principality over men.

Those were spirits.

As for the body of the resurrection, it is a different kind of body. One that has triumphed over the power of death....




Philippians 3:21 |
Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Jozzy4:



This is what you ought to have asked instead of making an assumption of nowhere sugested or answering what you dont understand

New American Standard Bible
He said to her, "What is his form?" And she said, " An old man is coming up, and he is wrapped with a robe. " And Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground and did homage. : 1samuel 28:14

The phrase "OLD man " suggested what ? I hope you won't tell me spirits are old men .



Secondly :

"
and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up HIS EYES and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side." Luke 16:23

Note: his Eyes, the rich man eye

Furthermore

"And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’" luke 16:24

Note: he begs for water , tell me why a spirit needs water in d first place ? Or to cool his tongue ? Is a tongue not full flesh ?

Address this pls

What made you draw the assumption that only fleshy human bodies have eyes, hands, beards and can thirst? Or that spiritual bodies cannot have them?

God is a spirit;

John 4v24 - God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Yet God who is a spirit has eyes:

2Chr 16v9 - For THE EYES OF THE LORD run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to shew himself strong in the behalf of them whose heart is perfect toward him.

God has hands:

Psalm 118v15 The voice of rejoicing and salvation is in the tabernacles of the righteous: THE RIGHT HAND OF THE LORD doeth valiantly. 16 THE RIGHT HAND OF THE LORD is exalted: THE RIGHT HAND OF THE LORD doeth valiantly.

God even has fingers:

Exodus 8v19 Then the magicians said unto Pharaoh, This is THE FINGER OF GOD: and Pharaoh's heart was hardened,

Luke 11v20 - But if I with THE FINGER OF GOD cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.

God has ears:

Isaiah 59v1 -Behold, the Lord's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither HIS EAR heavy, that it cannot hear:

God wears a garment and has hair on his head:

Daniel 7v9 -I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose GARMENT was white as snow, and THE HAIR OF HIS HEAD like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

God has foot:

Psalm 99v5 Exalt ye the Lord our God, and worship at his FOOTSTOOL; for he is holy.

Isaiah 66v1 -Thus saith the Lord, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my FOOTSTOOL: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?

God has a mouth:

Isaiah 40v5 -And the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.

I can go on and one and show other scriptures that shows that God can smell, and he has emotions.

So if God who is a spirit has eyes, ears, mouth, hands, feet, white hair and wears a garment, what gives you the assumption that because Samuel was wrapped in a robe or looked old with white hair, or that the rich man in hell thirsted and had tongue and eyes, they therefore cannot be spirits?

You drew your own unscriptural conclusion that only flesh has body parts, and that is not true. There are spiritual bodies, and they have body parts too.

1Cor 15v44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a SPIRITUAL BODY.

Even angels that are spirits have spiritual bodies parts too. They are described with hands and legs.

Rev10v2 And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set HIS RIGHT FOOT upon the sea, and HIS LEFT FOOT on the earth,

5 -And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up HIS HAND to heaven,

And also, souls can hunger and thirst.

Psalm 42v1 As the hart panteth after the water brooks, so panteth my soul after thee, O God. My soul thirsteth for God, for the living God: when shall I come and appear before God?

Psalm 143v6 I stretch forth my hands unto thee: my soul thirsteth after thee, as a thirsty land. Selah.

Lamentation 1v11 All her people sigh, they seek bread; they have given their pleasant things for meat to relieve the soul: see, O Lord, and consider; for I am become vile.

19 I called for my lovers, but they deceived me: my priests and mine elders gave up the ghost in the city, while they sought their meat to relieve their souls.

Lamentation 2v19 Arise, cry out in the night: in the beginning of the watches pour out thine heart like water before the face of the Lord: lift up thy hands toward him for the soul of thy young children, that faint for hunger in the top of every street.

Souls can hunger and thirst. And Jesus proved souls still thirst in hell.

So yes, those were the spirits of Samuel and the rich man. The body parts they were described as having are not peculiar to fleshy body parts, spiritual body parts have them too. God and angels, who are spirits, are described as having those parts too.

Shalom

Jozzy4:


That means you believe that death can ride a horse while Hades run after him ..

That stars actually fell down on earth kudos man

In reading Revelations, it will be wrong to assume all things there are symbols! Were those beheaded souls symbols? Why did Jesus say what shall it profit a man if he gains the world and loose his soul? Was that also a symbol?

Jozzy4:


Your post is a complete shit, you know ?

you have no quest for knowledge.. Stay on on your ignorance.. Thanks.

Scholar8200:

In reading Revelations, it will be wrong to assume all things there are symbols! Were those beheaded souls symbols? Why did Jesus say what shall it profit a man if he gains the world and loose his soul? Was that also a symbol?

The seals are symbols or literal ? If literal , kindly admit death also ride a horse while Hades run after him and also stars of the heaven fell down to the earth

ayoku777:


What made you draw the assumption that only fleshy human bodies have eyes, hands, beards and can thirst? Or that spiritual bodies cannot have them?

God is a spirit;

John 4v24 - God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Yet God who is a spirit has eyes:

2Chr 16v9 - For THE EYES OF THE LORD run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to shew himself strong in the behalf of them whose heart is perfect toward him.

God has hands:

Psalm 118v15 The voice of rejoicing and salvation is in the tabernacles of the righteous: THE RIGHT HAND OF THE LORD doeth valiantly. 16 THE RIGHT HAND OF THE LORD is exalted: THE RIGHT HAND OF THE LORD doeth valiantly.

God even has fingers:

Exodus 8v19 Then the magicians said unto Pharaoh, This is THE FINGER OF GOD: and Pharaoh's heart was hardened,

Luke 11v20 - But if I with THE FINGER OF GOD cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.

God has ears:

Isaiah 59v1 -Behold, the Lord's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither HIS EAR heavy, that it cannot hear:

God wears a garment and has hair on his head:

Daniel 7v9 -I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose GARMENT was white as snow, and THE HAIR OF HIS HEAD like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

God has foot:

Psalm 99v5 Exalt ye the Lord our God, and worship at his FOOTSTOOL; for he is holy.

Isaiah 66v1 -Thus saith the Lord, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my FOOTSTOOL: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?

God has a mouth:

Isaiah 40v5 -And the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.

I can go on and one and show other scriptures that shows that God can smell, and he has emotions.

Trash ! If God is a spirit that automatically means all this description you cited are anthropomorphism ... Infact col 1:15 calls him The INVISIBLE GOD , thus no one has seen him talkless of describing him .but this descriptions are used to help humans understand the bible

For example, some verses also speak of God has having FEATHER and wings . some verses speak of him as a male , whereas spirit has no gender .. . intact since God is spoken of as a male , can u then admit he has genitals ?

In Genesis , we are told again that male and FEMALE are in the image of God , going by ur reasoning, God must then have a breast and womb since bible said he created Female in his image ?

I pity your reasoning . God is a spirit , totally invisible thus any description u read is an anthropomorphism .

So if God who is a spirit has eyes, ears, mouth, hands, feet, white hair and wears a garment, what gives you the assumption that because Samuel was wrapped in a robe or looked old with white hair, or that the rich man in hell thirsted and had tongue and eyes, they therefore cannot be spirits?

Those descriptions are human. Not spirit

You drew your own unscriptural conclusion that only flesh has body parts, and that is not true. There are spiritual bodies, and they have body parts too.

1Cor 15v44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a SPIRITUAL BODY.



Even angels that are spirits have spiritual bodies parts too. They are described with hands and legs.

Rev10v2 And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set HIS RIGHT FOOT upon the sea, and HIS LEFT FOOT on the earth,

5 -And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up HIS HAND to heaven,

A spiritual body can't be seen with the human eyes gentleman , angels often appear as human to be seen and visible to us thus those descriptions used in Johns vision .

This clearly has nothing in common with a rich MAN, MAN with a tongue tasting water.

Or u wanna tell me spirits have tongues too ? U might as well assume they have penis ? Serious ?

And also, souls can hunger and thirst.

Psalm 42v1 As the hart panteth after the water brooks, so panteth my soul after thee, O God. My soul thirsteth for God, for the living God: when shall I come and appear before God?

Psalm 143v6 I stretch forth my hands unto thee: my soul thirsteth after thee, as a thirsty land. Selah.

Lamentation 1v11 All her people sigh, they seek bread; they have given their pleasant things for meat to relieve the soul: see, O Lord, and consider; for I am become vile.

19 I called for my lovers, but they deceived me: my priests and mine elders gave up the ghost in the city, while they sought their meat to relieve their souls.

Lamentation 2v19 Arise, cry out in the night: in the beginning of the watches pour out thine heart like water before the face of the Lord: lift up thy hands toward him for the soul of thy young children, that faint for hunger in the top of every street.

Souls can hunger and thirst. And Jesus proved souls still thirst in hell.

So yes, those were the spirits of Samuel and the rich man. The body parts they were described as having are not peculiar to fleshy body parts, spiritual body parts have them too. God and angels, who are spirits, are described as having those parts too.

Shalom

You said soul can hunger and thirst ... Think about what that means ? Is that not a clear fleshly description ? A spiritual entity with hunger and thirst ? Absurd

Okay see this , if soul is a spiritual entity ... How come A Soul hunger , thirst ,
?

How come a soul feel SLEEPLESS ?? psalm 119:28

How come a soul EAT FLESH ? Lev 7:20

How come a soul is stricken By Joshua's sword ? Jos 10:37

@ ayoku777. pls no vex for me, ill reply you later today hopefully

Jozzy4:


The seals are symbols or literal ? If literal , kindly admit death also ride a horse while Hades run after him and also stars of the heaven fell down to the earth

And who mentioned seal? Please seal is not the same thing as soul. Are the souls symbols? That is my question.

Scholar8200:
And who mentioned seal? Please seal is not the same thing as soul. Are the souls symbols? That is my question.

This man, pls go and sleep

When you wake up you will understand that Rev chapter 6 discuss the opening of seven seals ...then you can fully grasp my post . are the seals literal or symbolic ?

I will merge the two posts together and tell you my views, there will be some questions in between which if you want to , you can answer . I'll be stating my views on the scriptures you quoted and the one I will add.

ayoku777:

Haba, the scriptures are self-explanatory na.
2Cor 5v8 -We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be ABSENT FROM THE BODY, and to be present with the Lord.
When he says "to be absent from the body", which part of him gets absent from the body at death to be present with the Lord? His ears and nose? Ofcourse it is his soul and spirit.

We all know man is spirit, soul and body.
1Thess 5v23 -...and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2 cor 5:8 does not tell us what will be absent from the body, that is very clear. Moreover, I do not believe that is the soul and spirit that will be absent from the body(referring to Pauls statement)

to explain my view ill have to quote some verses before verse 8
2 cor 5: 1-8:
1. For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, should be torn down, we are to have a building from God, a house not made with hands, everlasting in the heavens.
2.For in this house we do indeed groan, earnestly desiring to put on the one for us from heaven,
3. so that when we do put it on, we will not be found naked.
4. In fact, we who are in this tent groan, being weighed down, because we do not want to put this one off, but we want to put the other on, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5.Now the one who prepared us for this very thing is God, who gave us the spirit as a token of what is to come.
6. So we are always of good courage and know that while we have our home in the body, we are absent from the Lord,
7.for we are walking by faith, not by sight.
8.But we are of good courage and would prefer to be absent from the body and to make our home with the Lord.

in this verses, Paul was talking about his present human body, and the body he desires, in which he was promised. This body will be theirs in heaven.
Paul was not talking about death perse, but was talking about a transformation of his body from the one he has to the one God gives him, from a mortal body to an immortal one, from a physical body to a spirit body. verse 8 is part of Pauls statement which had started from verse one , he was expressing his earnest desire to take up heavenly life, Paul showed that it was not death itself that was wanted by spirit-begotten Christians, nor to lie “naked” in death, but the ‘putting on’ of a heavenly body in order to be at “home with the Lord.
So being absent from this body means you have another body, not that your soul and spirit have left your body.
There are other scriptures that surpport my views which I'll post below.
2Pe 1:13, 14:But I consider it right, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you with reminders,
14knowing as I do that my tabernacle is soon to be removed, just as also our Lord Jesus Christ made clear to me.
1Co 15:50But I tell you this, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s Kingdom, nor does corruption inherit incorruption.
Php 3:20, 21But our citizenship exists in the heavens, and we are eagerly waiting for a savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ,
21[u]who will transform our humble body to be like his glorious body[/u] by his great power that enables him to subject all things to himself.
Ro 6:5If we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we will certainly also be united with him in the likeness of his resurrection.
Ro 8:23Not only that, but we ourselves also who have the firstfruits, namely, the spirit, yes, we ourselves groan within ourselves while we are earnestly waiting for adoption as sons, the release from our bodies by ransom.
1Co 15:48, 49Like the one made of dust, so too are those made of dust; and like the heavenly one, so too are those who are heavenly.
49And just as we have borne the image of the one made of dust, we will bear also the image of the heavenly one.
So Paul was talking about his desire for his body to be transformed(this must occur through death anyway)

And Jesus also said it that it is only the body that dies or can be killed by man, and that the soul stays alive and can only be sent to the lake of fire.
Matthew 10v28 -And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

your explanation goes contrary to the scripture you quoted. first the verse did not say lake of fire, some Translations translate it as hell(which is wrong anyway,we can discuss this if you want to)while some say "gehenna".
also jesus did not say the soul cannot be killed, he was stating that it cannot be killed by some.
luke 12:4,5 helps us to understand this better

Lu 12:4Moreover, I say to you, my friends, do not fear those who kill the body and after this are not able to do anything more
Lu 12:5But I will show you whom to fear: Fear the One who after killing has authority to throw into Ge·henʹna. Yes, I tell you, fear this One.

you also removed part of what jesus said will go to gehenna, Jesus said "body and soul" can be destroyed in gehenna , he did not state that only soul is kept alive and only soul goes there.
therfore , in a more literal sense, the soul and the body goes to the same place!. now you need to give us further explanation.
Now does the soul stay alive after death? I'll get to that soon.

Its clear the soul stays alive even after the body is killed, so when Paul talks about departing from the body after death, it can only be the soul -the part of man that stays alive after the body is killed.
And this verse confirms it fully that it is the soul that indeed departs from the body after death.
1Kings 17v21 -And he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried unto the Lord, and said, O Lord my God, I pray thee, let this CHILD'S SOUL come into him again.
22 And the Lord heard the voice of Elijah; and THE SOUL OF THE CHILD came into him again, and he revived.
Can you see? The boy's soul departed from his body after death. Is this proof enough now?

to tell you my view on these, one would first need to clear some issues on what the soul is.
I do not believe the soul leaves the body after death for another place, or that the soul goes somewhere separate from where the body goes.
when we read 1king 17:21, we will find out that different translations did not use the word "soul" in those verses, they said "life". This other translations throws out your explanation that the soul departed the body and the prophet prayed for it to be brought back into him.
Before you say these translations are wrong, i did a quick check and found out that the kjv translated this same hebrew word that is translated as "soul" in 1Ki 17:23 as "life" in gen1:30.
therefore, those other translations are correct!. The only conclusion I can now derive from these is that the soul that came back into the boy is the life of that boy. so the boy was given life, not that a seperate entity that departed earlier now came back.
These explanation goes along with other occurrence of the Hebrew word "nephesh"

at this junction I need to now ask you, since you say souls are alive after death, and they go somewhere, where are the souls of animals that are dead? (gen 1:20- 24)

And for your other question. Soul and Spirit, most times are used interchangeably in the new testament, because they never get separated even after the death of the body. They are inseparable even though the two are distinct.

Bro, soul and spirit are never used interchangeably, they have different meaning. even we are not allowed to change them. If I'm wrong, pls supply scripture in which they are used interchangeably.

The spirit controls the life of the person and the soul controls the consciousness of the person. And where one is the other is, even after death.

this statement does not have scripture to surpport it.
using scientific, physical and Scriptural views, I believe our consciousness is our body, it is not seperated from the functions of our brain(which is part of our body). In short it's our body that determines our consciousness.
These explanation above goes along with the scriptures where God described how he made man, and how man came to be a living soul.
Ge 2:7And Jehovah God went on to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living person(or soul).
look at the verse again, man was made from dust, man was not living until the breathe of life came into him, after the spirit entered him, man became a living soul.
to tell us what man really is , God told adam(the man):
Ge 3:19In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until YOU return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.”

examining what God told adam, this facts comes out.
1. The "you"in that verse is talking about the person, his consciousness.
2. The "you" will return to the dust.
3. The you is from the dust, the "you" is dust.
therefore, our consciousnness is part of our body. This consciousness become active when the spirit activates the body. If the spirit departs/leaves the man, the man becomes unconscious and knows nothing as the bible tells us, cus his body is no longer functioning as a living soul.

A question to you, where do you thing Adam went to when he died, to heaven, to hell, or to the ground as stated by his Creator?

It was both the soul and spirit of Jesus that went to sheol after He died on the cross.
Acts 2v27 - Because thou wilt not leave MY SOUL IN HELL, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
1Peter 3v18 -18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by THE SPIRIT: 19 BY WHICH ALSO HE WENT and preached unto the spirits in prison;
Both His soul and spirit departed into sheol after He died on the cross until His resurrection.
The spirit and the soul are distinct, but they depart the body together after death to heaven or hell.
All these verses are very self-explanatory. If they look confusing, its because you want them to mean something else other than the obvious.
Shalom!

Bro, Jesus, Jesus and the scriptures both tell us the body goes to hell, why dnt you add that to the case of Jesus going to hell.?
it is quite evident that soul goes to hell(I'm using the word hell for now so as not to create confusion), the issue now is if it's just soul and spirit, minus body, or if it's just soul alone.
The scriptures never said that the spirit goes to hell. Jesus, before he died said " into your hands I entrust my spirit.
examining 1 peter 3:18,19 further, we can see that it did not say that Jesus went to hell to preach/give proclamation to the spirits, it says that jesus went to preach/ give proclamation to those in prison!. that Jesus could go there means that jesus was not there after he died.
This event also occured after he was ressurected or raised.
Peter said he died in the body, but was raised as a spirit.(The kind of ressurection that those with heavinly hope , hope for.)
so when Jesus went to sheol, he did so in acordance with what the scriptures says will happen when one goes there. After he was ressurected , he now went to meet the spirits in prison, now having all authority to do so.
Peter 3: 18-20: For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit.
19[b] After being made alive,[/b]he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water.
Jesus does not need to be made alive in hell, cus according to you, his soul and spirit are alive!, therefore peter was talking about his resurrection.

the question to you now is, why did Jesus go to preach to the spirits you claim to be in hell, remember, you later said judgement has been passed on these spirits before going to hell?

ayoku777:

You didn't really digress. These are inclusive points in what we've been discussing.
Psalm 146v4 - His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
This verse is straight forward. It said when the spirit of a man leaves, he returns to the earth.
It is clear from the context of this verse that the "he" that "returneth to his earth" is the body of the man that was from the dust, not the man's soul or spirit.

no sir, "he" that "returneth to his earth" is the man himself!. These shows that the body is "he". "he" is the man, and where it is said that "he " goes is clearly where the man, his consciousness, physical attributes and feelings will go!. For as his body perishes, likewise is thoughts or conciousness.
as explained earlier, from accounts of the creation of the first man, we learnt that the soul is not a seperate entity in man, but rather man is a soul!(A living being) living or alive if the spirit is active in the body and dead if the spirit goes out of the body.
so Psalms is telling us that when man dies, his spirit leaves him, and he(ill use the word dead soul here) goes to sheol. and in sheol, he is inactive!

These verses establish that claim;
Eccl 12v7 - Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
And these;
Genesis 3v19 -In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

those verses clearly shows us that man is dust, and man returns to dust when man dies, therefore man is the body that turns to dust.
It did not state that part of man (the body) turns to dust. therefore from all these verses together, inclusive of the account of the creation of man, we know that man is a combination of spirit and body, which makes man become a living soul!
man will not become dust as long as the Spirit is active in him.!

So the part of man that returns to dust or to the earth is the part of man that was taken from dust -his human body.
So the verse actually interpretes;
Psalm 146v4 - His breath (or spirit) goeth forth (leaves), he (the body) returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. - (words in bracket mine)

the scriptures never said so bro, it never said or implied that part of man turns to dust after the spirit has left. The "he" There is in reference to the man himself. notice that you made no remark to his thoughts, which perishes. That part of the verse would have shown you that he is no longer conscious when he returned to the dust.
Ps 104:29When you hide your face, they are disturbed. If you take away their spirit, they die and return to the dust.
job 34:14,15: If it were his intention and he withdrew his spirit a and breath,
15 all humanity would perish together and mankind would return to the dust.
the scriptures are plain on what turns to dust, it says man!, and not part of man!

* had to cut it here cus nairaland keep saying" post too long. It continues in the next post