bukatyne:


Interesting observation

From you? Hmm. Good things never cease.

bukatyne:


So what is the way forward?

You want to trap me?

bukatyne:


Bros, I asked a simple question.

To you, what makes womanhood golden?

my answers are boldly spelt out in all what the op wrote!

shaybebaby:

Una Dey ask question that requires thought not just trotting out baseless declarations. E so ara yin laro kutukutu yi o!

Ki bi mo she?

E karo

donbenedict:
my answers are boldly spelt out in all what the op wrote!

So the fact that the 'modern' woman has to be stretched beyond her limits makes her golden?

Lezzlie:
From you? Hmm. Good things never cease. You want to trap me?

Why the surprise?

It was a good observation and I commend you

Trap? I resemble hunter?

Amakortee:
the summary of what men need is SUBMISSION AND RESPECT. then u see the man behaving like a little kid

I beg to differ, but heck, I will still daretodiffer.

That's a hasty generalization you made up there, some men like myself don't need their wife to submit to them, nope! I dare say my wife is not a slave, so why the heck should she even submit to me.?

Some men like myself need a woman who is partner, one who is as erudite and gifted like the man. We should always remember this, their zeal or quest to make a woman submit to her husband paves way for authoritarianism, and this is what the typical nigerian man is, an authoritarian.

bukatyne:


So the fact that the 'modern' woman has to be stretched beyond her limits makes her golden?

stretched beyond limits? So being golden means stretched beyond limits? For the fact that she does all that signifies she is woman...


I even don't see why this should pose as an argument. I think you are missing the point here. Look, if u think doing all that is being stretched beyond limits den u should opt for a sex change and try being a man..

Women are are gift to mankind, and there is absolutely nothing dat can take their place.


It seems u ain't proud being a woman..

shaybebaby:




Respect, everyone deserves that regardless of gender or age.

Yes everyone deserves respect.
In marriage, it goes both ways!

bukatyne:


Submission? I don't know about that. That implies some sort of superiority and seeing as marriage is a partnership not oga and minion arrangement, I would beg to differ.

I think what's meant there is allowing the husband to lead seemingly, even though we all know it's the woman who usually calls the shots.

joseph1832:
I beg to differ, but heck, I will still daretodiffer.

That's a hasty generalization you made up there, some men like myself don't need their wife to submit to them, nope! I dare say my wife is not a slave, so why the heck should she even submit to me.?

Some men like myself need a woman who is partner, one who is as erudite and gifted like the man. We should always remember this, their zeal or quest to make a woman submit to her husband paves way for authoritarianism, and this is what the typical nigerian man is, an authoritarian.

Lol

My question has always been what is 'submission and respect'?

I am okay with 'submission' if it meant flexibility. I don't intend t agree to any other meaning. And If men are supposed to love their wives, then they are far more under an ambiguous obligation however some of these boys taht throw the word around have not taken time to understand and peruse what it is meant by 'love'. And I hate the way some men pull out the 'submission' and respect card like it is some I-don't-even-know-what-to-call-it.

Respect cannot come from the woman alone. Respect should be mutual. In fact respect is something you chould have for everyone regardless of the age, gender etc. My two cents o,.

bukatyne:


Why the surprise?

It was a good observation and I commend you

Trap? I resemble hunter?

You're a hunter alright, a veteranized one I fear

Women have a stronger will to social adaptability than men. The role of the modern woman is a tricky one.

It's an evolution from the 21st century restructuring of society. Any sharp and radical approach will be counter productive.

Duplicated post.

Lezzlie:
Yes everyone deserves respect.
In marriage, it goes both ways!

I think what's meant there is allowing the husband to lead seemingly, even though we all know it's the woman who usually calls the shots.

Why the need for such pretext? Surely a man who is secure in his relationship and respects his partner will have no issues conceding to her wishes and likewise for a woman.
When there is mutual respect, it is easier to compromise.

So once she is submissive and respectful, the rest of the things do not matter. Sorry i had to chuckle...My dear that is not all that is needed if a woman really wants to maintain her place in her home

Amakortee:
the summary of what men need is SUBMISSION AND RESPECT. then u see the man behaving like a little kid

thanks dear

bukatyne:


I am afraid you didn't address the OP.

Yea, men need submission and respect.

Does it mean she shouldn't do any other thing in the OP?

Beautiful thread mimzy

Word!!!

joseph1832:
I beg to differ, but heck, I will still daretodiffer.

That's a hasty generalization you made up there, some men like myself don't need their wife to submit to them, nope! I dare say my wife is not a slave, so why the heck should she even submit to me.?

Some men like myself need a woman who is partner, one who is as erudite and gifted like the man. We should always remember this, their zeal or quest to make a woman submit to her husband paves way for authoritarianism, and this is what the typical nigerian man is, an authoritarian.

No doubt , we are infact THE GREATEST GIFT TO MANKIND
but does that mean that we should not be appreciated, assisted, loved, respected ??
Does that mean we should be relegated to the background??
I can go on and on...but let me just leave it here

donbenedict:
stretched beyond limits? So being golden means stretched beyond limits? For the fact that she does all that signifies she is woman...


I even don't see why this should pose as an argument. I think you are missing the point here. Look, if u think doing all that is being stretched beyond limits den u should opt for a sex change and try being a man..

Women are are gift to mankind, and there is absolutely nothing dat can take their place.


It seems u ain't proud being a woman..

joseph1832:
.


Of course it is, there's no doubt about that. What I'm is everyone is entitled to do whatever he or she wants do to in their marriage, devoid of societal beliefs and conventions.

I never said anyone couldn't do what he/she wants in his or her marriage. What I mean is that within their own individual capacity they can do what they want without going against societal framework. Getting married in the face place is a societial convention. So altering the little fabrics in their marriage isn't going against the norm, it is simply being individualistic!

bukatyne:


You forget, the societal beliefs and conventions makes it probable that students must write exams and pass, you and I both know there are students who don't write exams but still pass, that's the exception I meant. It might be wrong to society, but at the end of the day, its the student who gets to decide what to do, not society.

You just endorsed me. Students who pass but didn't write an exam circumvented societal rules and will be in hiding. They are not even exceptions to the rule. They are deviants.

bukatyne:


They are the negative result of societal conventions and belief system. If I were to show up in my work place dressed as a girl, of course I'll get the letter, that's what society demands, but society fail to even ask, what if I like to dress like a girl? When one is forced to behave in a way one don't like, one becomes different.

My debate doesn't seek to determine if societal code of conduct or convention are intrinsically good or bad. I'm staying that from the time of humanity everyone has to conform to societal norms and values. Either in marriage, school, profession and religious beliefs. It's all around us. Whether this conformity is good or evil is not within this debate.

My submission is that the role of the couples in marriage stems from societal conventions.

bukatyne:


Which God bro? And which man? I believe it is that God and man that will pay his bills right? Perish the thought. Lol.

I don't follow here.

bukatyne:



The normal societal convention was what the OP depicted in the thread above. It is what is causing problems in the home. That's why exceptions must come in if one truly wants to be happy. The law is the law, but any law without punitive measure can still not be obeyed, and such law is what society's law, customs and beliefs are.

Wrong! What brings scuffles at home is individual application of societal conventions.e.g, It's conventional for women to prepare the meals. But is it at all circumstances? These individual application is what bears the need for discord, not the convention itself.



A man should have the final say at home but what if he were wrong? Shouldn't he confide with his wife?

bukatyne:


No doubt, but the exception still mean going against the usual convention and norms
. How many parents name their kids Hanza these days?. Lol.

Convention aren't mean to be strikingly uniform. They may have shades but still they are rooted in same ideology

bukatyne:





Course he did, to appease irked family members of course, what do you think? Depriving parents from naming their grand kids and not doing the naming ceremony would have been a serious slap on their faces.

By succumbing to familial pressure, he has fallen under the weight of societial convention.

bukatyne:




May be we're conformist, but we still have to decide if we have to conform to what society demand of us.

I believe you know some powerful rulers did indeed go against societal values.

Humans will always try to redefine conventions and create a new one. It's nothing new. It's social rebellion.

The Anglican Church did it in the spiritual sphere.

Democracy did in in the political sphere against dictatorship and others. Socialism did it on the socio-economic fonts.

Homosexualism, faggotry is trying to break the conventions still. If they do, it will become a norm with social authority.

mimzy:
No doubt , we are infact THE GREATEST GIFT TO MANKIND
but does that mean that we should not be appreciated, assisted, loved, respected ??
Does that mean we should be relegated to the background??
I can go on and on...but let me just leave it here

so all the mother's day celebration set aside for womanhood no dey make u happy? Eh? Nor make me vex o

shaybebaby:

Why the need for such pretext? Surely a man who is secure in his relationship and respects his partner will have no issues conceding to her wishes and likewise for a woman.
When there is mutual respect, it is easier to compromise.

I see no pretence in what he said.

The bolded hangs on borderline simplicity on your path.

donbenedict:
so all the mother's day celebration set aside for womanhood no dey make u happy? Eh? Nor make me vex o

Isn't father's day celebrated as well?

I honestly see no bearing in correlation between mothers' day celebration and what women's role should be

Lezzlie....

Hope I am safe?

You continually replaced Joesph's name with mine

Lezzlie:


I never said anyone couldn't do what he/she wants in his or her marriage. What I mean is that within their own individual capacity they can do what they want without going against societal framework. Getting married in the face place is a societial convention. So altering the little fabrics in their marriage isn't going against the norm, it is simply being individualistic!

Yes that's true, being individualistic rocks, no wonder those who are individualistic in their marriage get to sleep peacefully at night.

You just endorsed me. Students who pass but didn't write an exam circumvented societal rules and will be in hiding. They are not even exceptions to the rule. They are deviants.

Hope you didn't forget these students are the ones who now rock nigeria, you see them using nepotism to get to where they are.

Even here in Nairaland, who do you think people listen to, in term of advice, when it comes to relationship matters? They'll rather listen to a saintsamurai than listen to a lezz?.

My debate doesn't seek to determine if societal code of conduct or convention are intrinsically good or bad. I'm staying that from the time of humanity everyone has to conform to societal norms and values. Either in marriage, school, profession and religious beliefs. It's all around us. Whether this conformity is good or evil is not within this debate.

True that, but my debate has always been if this same societal norm, belief, convention and value system bring one pain, shouldn't one do away with it?

My submission is that the role of the couples in marriage stems from societal conventions.

Yes and my submission is that's the very reason why we're having failed marriages and un happy couples.

I don't follow here.

I was just implying that the society doesn't pay my bills, so why should I adhere to what society wants?

Wrong! What brings scuffles at home is individual application of societal conventions.e.g, It's conventional for women to prepare the meals. But is it at all circumstances? These individual application is what bears the need for discord, not the convention itself.

Wrong! What I believe bring scuffles at home is the usual societal conventions that makes a woman slave to her husband.

How is it conventional for women to prepare meals? Heck, its conventional for women to bring babies into this world, not conventional for them to become chefs! The society that mapped this duty out for them can be said to be archaic and mainly patriarchal.

A man should have the final say at home but what if he were wrong? Shouldn't he confide with his wife?

So wrong!!! A man shouldn't have the final say in the home, the couple should. That's why its paramount both sit down and discuss about their future, without letting society's influence, influence them.

Convention aren't mean to be strikingly uniform. They may have shades but still they are rooted in same ideology

Ideology like?

By succumbing to familial pressure, he has fallen under the weight of societial convention.

No doubt, but that doesn't in any way mean he's happy with it. We shouldn't let societal convention, norm and belief system deprive
us from being happy.

Humans will always try to redefine conventions and create a new one. It's nothing new. It's social rebellion.

The Anglican Church did it in the spiritual sphere.

Democracy did in in the political sphere against dictatorship and others. Socialism did it on the socio-economic fonts.

Homosexualism, faggotry is trying to break the conventions still. If they do, it will become a norm with social authority.

That's an altruism, history is itched with many of such rebellion.

Whatever is oppressive or un favorable will always be met with resistance.

bukatyne:
Lezzl ie....

Hope I am safe?

You continually replaced Joesph's name with mine

I believe you are. An honest mistake. Beside, I absolutely love your dp.

Please tell me you're a master in the art of cooking. Lol.

bukatyne:
Lezzlie....

Hope I am safe?

You continually replaced Joesph's name with mine

I honestly don't know how that came about.
Should be a quirk or something.

Sorry.

joseph1832:
I believe you are. An honest mistake. Beside, I absolutely love your dp.

Please tell me you're a master in the art of cooking. Lol.

Killer-joe!

Come back , our debate is still on.

Lezzlie:
Killer-joe!
Come back , our debate is still on.

LmFao. I never left bro...

kinglekan:

Sense certificate mogbe

weyrey boy... pm me your number

joseph1832:





True that, but my debate has always been if this same societal norm, belief, convention and value system bring one pain, shouldn't one do away with it?

Humans have always and will always change values and ethics. It's part of humanity.

joseph1832:


Yes and my submission is that's the very reason why we're having failed marriages and un happy couples.

If societal values bring the failure of marriages, the institution wouldn't have survived this long. The vows you took at the alter, the advice and imploration you get from your in-laws when you go for traditional marriage are all societal conventions and expectations.

Couples simply deviate from the codes of their vows during marriage. Did society ask you to punch your wife or ask your wife disregard you?

joseph1832:



I was just implying that the society doesn't pay my bills, so why should I adhere to what society wants? [

Yes you conform to what society wants of you.

I believe you have a set code of conduct in your place of work, where you live and how you interact with individuals. That's society for you, nope?

joseph1832:


Wrong! What I believe bring scuffles at home is the usual societal conventions that makes a woman slave to her husband.

Sentimental escapism to the gallery of gender approval !!!

bukatyne:


How is it conventional for women to prepare meals? Heck, its conventional for women to bring babies into this world, not conventional for them to become chefs! The society that mapped this duty out for them can be said to be archaic and mainly patriarchal.

Bearing babies isn't conventional, lolz. It is a biological reality. It is an inherent mark of evolution nothing can change!!!!

And it's conventional for women to make meals and pay attention to the home font. Men aren't exempted.

But women are more suited. If you call cooking slavery, what do you call breadwinning? As more men are the breadwinners for their families, although women are beginning to step up to the plate but it still a male prevalent occurrence. Balance here is the watchword!

joseph1832:


So wrong!!! A man shouldn't have the final say in the home, the couple should. That's why its paramount both sit down and discuss about their future, without letting society's influence, influence them.

So if there's a stalemate, say, the kids are due for school and both parents can't decide what school they need to enrole the kids into? What then happens.

If the husband doesn't have a final say, Joseph, you're advocating disorderliness and chaos.

Every man should consult and seek his wife support in decision making. But saying the husband doesn't get to decide is.....laughable, even to feminists.


n.b bukatyne, please disregard the mention, I honestly think is NL software glitch. Thanks.

joseph1832:
I believe you are. An honest mistake. Beside, I absolutely love your dp.

Please tell me you're a master in the art of cooking. Lol.

Thanks a lot

I am a mistress in the art of cooking

Lolz.. We deserve more jare.. oya comot jor and go and do your vexation elsewhere

donbenedict:
so all the mother's day celebration set aside for womanhood no dey make u happy? Eh? Nor make me vex o

bukatyne:


Thanks a lot

I am a mistress in the art of cooking

That's how i opened you profile and you made me long-throat for that meal

Lezzlie:



Where've you been hiding? Don't tell me you don't know that a deviant form of acceptable human condition is a conscious or unconscious attempt to carve out a new convention from the existing one?

I've been around.
That depends on what you see as being deviant. The Society's norms changes from time to time. There was a time it would be unheard of of a woman to work or do anything outside the usual family rearing and nurturing. Now, the Society to an extent encourages women to follow their dreams, build careers, live their lives. Not like there ain't still some hypocritical sentiments, like a woman who shares in paying the bill and at the same time take care of the home is such a good woman, supportive, not a liability, etc. But a man that helps out his wife with domestic chores is already deviating from the norm , what the heck he is a man!
Several speculations would start coming up about his manliness, she probably bewitched him, he is a woman wrapper and all sorts of balderdash.
A man cheats serially without shame or any care for the feelings of the wife, what the Society would say is for the woman to endure and still pamper him or look for a way to blame the woman.
Fornication is gradually becoming a norm, if it isn't already. People, men especially can get to shamelessly boast about the number of women they had slept with and be hailed.

The woman is expected to be the epitome of the perfect home maker, nurturer and of course should not be a liability to the man so she has to combine working with home making. The man should be there to provide his quota to the family finances and of course be the authoritarian in the home. Whether his decisions affects the wife negatively is no ones concern, he is the man.
Being an authoritarian in the marriage is the Society's norm. The woman takes care of the home as well as her career, God help her she takes in a mature or even pre-puberty lady as maid, if she is married to a man with no self control, stories that touch the heart will come up and of course the Society will still blame the woman.
Some men will shout, I don't want a liability as a wife, ask them if they can help their wives out with house chores, that would be another scenario. It isn't demeaning for the woman to help out with his own conventional role but it is demeaning for him to help her out with hers.

Let me give you a case scenario, there is a couple with both husband and wife working, the man doesn't even know how the wife and children feeds, all he contributes to is the school fees which he of course still shares payment with the wife. He cheats openly on her. Even while heavily pregnant she was expected to take care of his numerous friends, relatives and what not. He can bring home any stranger or relative as he wishes without her consent, who will stay for as long as he or she wants and she must of course cook for too. She managed to buy herself a washing machine, but he prefers the handwashing method and said she must not use it, etc.This is a lot of women's reality. If she decides to leave such marriage, she would be the one seen as the deviant for not putting up with BS in the name of being submissive. Some people's definition of submissiveness is slavery.