the morgue

the morgue

Human soul is immortal and do not go to the morgue. Ode.

RedHotChic:

Human soul is immortal and do not go to the morgue. Ode.

The human soul immortal?? Who told you that crap?? Have you seen the human soul before?? What do you refer to as the human soul?? How did yur soul come into existence?? Does our semen and eggs also have X & Y soul chromosomes??

This is my answer to the thread, the morgue, then to the cemetry. Chikina.

Otherwise, they are heading to hell according to the bible in the book of Psalms and I quote

Ps 51:5

5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
KJV

So since we were shapened and concieved in iniquity, then we are products of iniquity hence sinners so if you die before you right yourself, you are on the hell express.

The human soul immortal?? Who told you that crap?? Have you seen the human soul before?? What do you refer to as the human soul?? How did yur soul come into existence?? Does our semen and eggs also have X & Y soul chromosomes??

Blessed are those who did not see,yet, they believed.

Otherwise, they are heading to hell according to the bible in the book of Psalms and I quote

How will they head to hell if they are nonexistent like you said?. The human soul is indeed immortal.

Hi Sarmy,

sarmy:

Thanks for this analogy; this is the only reasonable answer for the dead children

If you say they get automatic ticket to heaven, that still make God unjust because it would have been better for some to die as a child and go to heaven than to die poor as adult who neither enjoyed life but will suffer eternity in hell for not accepting Christ whom he probably knew nothing about


The only reasonable answer if for them to retake i.e come back again in flesh and be subjected to life experience like others


Some passages seem to suggest possibility of reincarnation in the bible, but this doctrine might have been silenced so one can put best in this present life seeing it as the only and last opportunity while providing no answer to some other interesting questions

It is good that you can appreciate that reincarnation is an expression of the love and justice of God. I pray that you will be permitted personal experience of reincarnation;  experiences that will give you absolute conviction that reincarnation is a grace of God. I do not believe that the bible is the word of God and thus I do not cite it nor interpret what is stated therein. Neither do I contribute to topics in which the poster explicitly states that contributions are welcomed if your assertions are based on the bible. I always make this point very clear in my posts. Stay blessed.

m_nwankwo:

Hi Sarmy,

It is good that you can appreciate that reincarnation is an expression of the love and justice of God. I pray that you will be permitted personal experience of reincarnation;  experiences that will give you absolute conviction that reincarnation is a grace of God. I do not believe that the bible is the word of God and thus I do not cite it nor interpret what is stated therein. Neither do I contribute to topics in which the poster explicitly states that contributions are welcomed if your assertions are based on the bible. I always make this point very clear in my posts. Stay blessed. 

Since man is a composite being, I wonder, is it the entire composite that gets reincarnated or is it just a particular part of the man.

RedHotChic:

Blessed are those who did not see,yet, they believed.

I know that is in the bible, but that is one blessing that is just going to have to pass me by. There is the danger that it easily opens the door to gullibility. Since I'm surrounded by showers of blessings I don't think it matters much if one or two drops miss me.

Since man is a composite being, I wonder, is it the entire composite that gets reincarnated or is it just a particular part of the man.

soul

Since man is a composite being, I wonder, is it the entire composite that gets reincarnated or is it just a particular part of the man.

Hi Pastor. I do not believe that man is a composite being. I believe that man is a spirt being or just a spirit. A soul is a spirit with bodies (non physical) except that it lacks the astral and the physical body. Man on earth, that is living in flesh and blood, is a spirit with bodies including the astral and the physical bodies. The bodies are not part of the spirit, rather instruments that the spirit uses to experience in non-spiritual enviroments. If for instance I wear a black singlet, a brown shirt, a red type and a black suit, then these dresses are not part of M_nwankwo. Although the analogy is crude, it faintly reflects what the various bodies are to the spirit. Thus on earth, the spirit uses the physical body, in the astral world, the spirit uses the astral body, etc. Thus the physical body, the astral body and various other bodies that cloak the spirit appear alive beccause they are animated by the spirit. That is they have no life of their own but are alive as long as they are inhabited by the living spirit. The departure of the spirit from these bodies is what people call death. If it is the physical body, it is called earthly death, if it is the astral body, it is called astal death etc. Now it is the spirit that reincarnates. This spirit has also bodies or cloaks (without the physical body and the astral body) and thus it is called a soul. Memories of reincarnation cannot be found in the physical body and its organs since they die at earthly death. Memories of reincarnation are in the spirit. Since most people cannot[b] consciously [/b] draw information from the spirit, they have no memories that they have been on earth several times. In otherwords the average man is dead, that is he or she cannot use the faculties of his or her spirit, indeed he or she is not even aware that he or she is a spirit. This is the only reason why it is difficult for people to understand things of God. It is only the spirit that has the ability to recognise God. Stay blessed.

m_nwankwo:

Hi Pastor. I do not believe that man is a composite being. I believe that man is a spirt being or just a spirit. A soul is a spirit with bodies (non physical) except that it lacks the astral and the physical body. Man on earth, that is living in flesh and blood, is a spirit with bodies including the astral and the physical bodies. The bodies are not part of the spirit, rather instruments that the spirit uses to experience in non-spiritual enviroments. If for instance I wear a black singlet, a brown shirt, a red type and a black suit, then these dresses are not part of M_nwankwo. Although the analogy is crude, it faintly reflects what the various bodies are to the spirit. Thus on earth, the spirit uses the physical body, in the astral world, the spirit uses the astral body, etc. Thus the physical body, the astral body and various other bodies that cloak the spirit appear alive beccause they are animated by the spirit. That is they have no life of their own but are alive as long as they are inhabited by the living spirit. The departure of the spirit from these bodies is what people call death. If it is the physical body, it is called earthly death, if it is the astral body, it is called astal death etc. Now it is the spirit that reincarnates. This spirit has also bodies or cloaks (without the physical body and the astral body) and thus it is called a soul. Memories of reincarnation cannot be found in the physical body and its organs since they die at earthly death. Memories of reincarnation are in the spirit. Since most people cannot[b] consciously [/b] draw information from the spirit, they have no memories that they have been on earth several times. In otherwords the average man is dead, that is he or she cannot use the faculties of his or her spirit, indeed he or she is not even aware that he or she is a spirit. This is the only reason why it is difficult for people to understand things of God. It is only the spirit that has the ability to recognise God. Stay blessed.   

Thank you for your reply.  I have a few more questions for you though, that are centered around IDENTITY.  What is identity?  To what do I refer to when I say that I am this that or the other.  The reasons that I am asking are twofold. 

1) I have had experiences whereby[b] I[/b] have ceased to exist yet experience continues.  This usually occurs during moments of deep absorption and concentration.  I simply lose all awareness of being me.  As it turns out this is a common phenomenon that has been documented by psychologists.  Some call it being in the zone and others call it being in the Flow.  Many sportsmen experience it too.  Check this out:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_(psychology)

Of particular interest to me is when these points are used to describe flow:

A loss of the feeling of self-consciousness, the merging of action and awareness.
Distorted sense of time, one's subjective experience of time is altered.

As it happens similar things are described in many other practices.  For instance Yogis have something they call Dharana, and Dhyana.  Actually this things that I'm talking about has been documented all over the world.

You also might know this experience that I'm talking about.  Imagine that you are sitting an exam that you are well prepared for.  you open the exam paper and the main essay is a subject that you've studied inside out, yet it is a little bit challenging.  You start to write.  That feeling when you are absorbed in the essay.  You lose all awareness of time, and of self.  All that exists in your consciousness is the subject matter of the essay.  You are the pen writing.  You are the paper on which you are writing.  You are the essay and the concepts that are flowing through the ink onto the paper, you are the ink itself.  It is a light feeling, of levity and freedom.  M_Nwankwo doesn't exist then, with all his issues and ego driven angst.  Identity as you know it is completely dissolved.

Dhāraṇā is the initial step of deep concentrative meditation, where the object being focused upon is held in the mind without consciousness wavering from it. The difference between Dhāraṇā, Dhyāna, and Samādhi (the three together constituting Samyama) is that in the former, the object of meditation, the meditator, and the act of meditation itself remain separate. That is, the meditator or the meditator's meta-awareness is conscious of meditating (that is, is conscious of the act of meditation) on an object, and of his or her own self, which is concentrating on the object. In the subsequent stage of Dhāraṇā, as the meditator becomes more advanced, consciousness of the act of meditation disappears, and only the consciousness of being/existing and the object of concentration exist (in the mind).

  From here:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dharana

My question is that if identity can be obliterated like this, if it can be done away like this then is it something that can be carried from one incarnation to another.  I believe that such identity is actually a function of the flesh and not of the spirit.  If the spirit is what incarnates then how does it carry the identity of a previous incarnation unto the new incarnation.

2) When I am still before the Lord sometimes I find myself contemplating my life and I feel so distant from my everyday concerns.  I feel so serene and light and all the issues that are such a big deal to me in my everyday life seem so petty and irrelevant.  In fact my life seems so insignificant from that realm.  During such times, I am not this egotistical petty, easily offended, neurotic dumb-ass that is currently writing this post.  I feel so distant from this person.   

What can be said of this person?  This person is defined by his history.  I am the kid who went to such and such school, was born into such and such family in such and such country, who was severely spurned by that girl who was my first ever love, who in turn was mean to so many others etc etc etc.  Your history defines you.  You are, simply speaking, a narrative. 
If, as you say, reincarnation occurs and it is the spirit that reincarnates then why would the spirit carry all this horrid baggage, which it is so distant from anyway , from one incarnation to another.

Hi Pastor. Thanks for your comments. I offer my perception on the issues you raised as follows:

Thank you for your reply.  I have a few more questions for you though, that are centered around IDENTITY.  What is identity?  To what do I refer to when I say that I am this that or the other.  The reasons that I am asking are twofold. 

1) I have had experiences whereby I have ceased to exist yet experience continues.  This usually occurs during moments of deep absorption and concentration.  I simply lose all awareness of being me.  As it turns out this is a common phenomenon that has been documented by psychologists.  Some call it being in the zone and others call it being in the Flow.  Many sportsmen experience it too.  Check this out:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_(psychology)

Of particular interest to me is when these points are used to describe flow:
Quote
A loss of the feeling of self-consciousness, the merging of action and awareness.
Distorted sense of time, one's subjective experience of time is altered.

As it happens similar things are described in many other practices.  For instance Yogis have something they call Dharana, and Dhyana.  Actually this things that I'm talking about has been documented all over the world.

You also might know this experience that I'm talking about.  Imagine that you are sitting an exam that you are well prepared for.  you open the exam paper and the main essay is a subject that you've studied inside out, yet it is a little bit challenging.  You start to write.  That feeling when you are absorbed in the essay.  You lose all awareness of time, and of self.  All that exists in your consciousness is the subject matter of the essay.  You are the pen writing.  You are the paper on which you are writing.  You are the essay and the concepts that are flowing through the ink onto the paper, you are the ink itself.  It is a light feeling, of levity and freedom.  M_Nwankwo doesn't exist then, with all his issues and ego driven angst.  Identity as you know it is completely dissolved.

Identity in my view is spiritual consciouness, that is,  the person is conscious that he is a spirit and can exercise the faculties of the spirit. In other words the individual have recognised the will of God and voluntrily submitted his will to the will of God.   Thus such a person has a consciousness that trancends material concepts of time and space.  He can therefore experience events and things that is outside the conscious, subconscious and unconscious ranges of the human brain. Thus the I am, the spirit experiences with the faculties of the spirit. As you have correctly noted, many experience this during intense moments of joy or sorrow or prayer. Joy, sorrow and prayer are such intense experiences that the brain/astral faculties are silenced for a moment and the spirit can then attune itself to the power of God. In an instant, the spirit becomes aware of its smallness in comparison to the all embracing power of God. All the limitation devised by the human brain or mind is burst asunder and the spirit experiences pure joy. Most people are overwhelmed by this that they think it is the ultimate but in reality it is just the beginning of the path to spiritual consciousness. Now in this experience what is altered or distorted is the self consciousness, the time, the identity as determined by the human brain. It is not identity or the self consciouness of the spirit. As self consciouness of the spirit develops the person will see also the limitations of this overwhelming experience for he will pass through more intense joy and and even the trancendental concepts of time that he has experienced now become finite , etc What I am saying is that the instrument with which the spirit uses to experience determines the percified identity. If the spirit is using the brain to experience, then its identity and concepts of space-time is limited by the brain, if the spirit is experiencing with the faculties of the astral body, then its identity and time space awareness trancends that of the brain, if the spirit is experiencing with ethereal bodies, identity and time space awareness trancends identity and time space awareness as percified by faculties of the astral body, on on on it goes in other finer bodies until the spirit can experience not through an instrument or bodies but through its self, that is through spiritual faculties, that is when the spirit have its identity, its consciouness and its spiritual space-time awareness. Therefore as you get absorbed in your essay, what you loose is an awareness of earthly time and space as you brain concieved it. The human brain as advanced as it is, is i limited and thus deep absorption in just one earthly tasks shuts down awareness of other earthly things like earthly identity, earthly time, earthly space etc. It is a limitation of the brain, not the spirit.

My question is that if identity can be obliterated like this, if it can be done away like this then is it something that can be carried from one incarnation to another.  I believe that such identity is actually a function of the flesh and not of the spirit.  If the spirit is what incarnates then how does it carry the identity of a previous incarnation unto the new incarnation.

2) When I am still before the Lord sometimes I find myself contemplating my life and I feel so distant from my everyday concerns.  I feel so serene and light and all the issues that are such a big deal to me in my everyday life seem so petty and irrelevant.  In fact my life seems so insignificant from that realm.  During such times, I am not this egotistical petty, easily offended, neurotic dumb-ass that is currently writing this post.  I feel so distant from this person.   

What can be said of this person?  This person is defined by his history.  I am the kid who went to such and such school, was born into such and such family in such and such country, who was severely spurned by that girl who was my first ever love, who in turn was mean to so many others etc etc etc.  Your history defines you.  You are, simply speaking, a narrative. 
If, as you say, reincarnation occurs and it is the spirit that reincarnates then why would the spirit carry all this horrid baggage, which it is so distant from anyway , from one incarnation to another. 

The brain (physical) and all the other bodies are simply instruments for the spirit. It is the spirit that uses the instrument and thus responsible for whatever the various instruments did or did not do. One cannot even make a slight movement without it been first willed by the spirit. The spirit has the God given ability to make these instruments to reflect the nature or attributes of the spirit. Prophets and finally the son of God Jesus came to school the human spirit on how to use his instruments but all fell on deaf ear. Every spirit that will incarnate on earth have an outermost body called the ethereal body. The spirit forms and reforms this ethereal body according to how he expresses his free will. Thus for instance, a man goes on murdering his fellow men. The physical murder which many can observe is not the origin. The origin lies in the the decison by the spirit to murder. Depending on the person, this decision by the spirit will finally reach the brain and thoughts of murder and how to initiate it then arise. The lever that set in motion the process of murder lies with the free will of the spirit. This decision by the spirit imprints itself on the ethereal body , and this imprint will influence the time, circumstances and even the genes this murderous soul will inherit. Thus all our sins and good deeds from  one earth life to another are imprinted in our soul or the ethereal body of the spirit. This can be seen by those whose ethereal eyes are open. For instance, women who have aborted babies have little children body hanging on their neck. All of us carry our activities clearly marked in our souls. Thus if a spirit has used his instrument to generate gabbage, then he must taste the gabbage to redeem himself or fall further. Only in experiencing what we offer to others will we recognise wheather the seeds we sowed are bitter or sweet. What a man sows, he reaps is a law of God. One more point is that the imprints on the ethereal body are not part of the spirit, they only cling to the spirit like if a diamond is covered with mud. Thus it is possible to wash away sins----------reincarnation is an opprtunity offered by the grace of God to do just that. Stay blessed.

@m_nwankwo,

Thank you for your response. I think that terminology might be getting in the way of our understanding each other. We ought to make clear and defined what we are saying.

For instance it is possible that we don't mean the same thing when we say Spirit. So I think that it might be better to use the word entity. So a person is an Entity that gets cloaked in various bodies would be your position.

Secondly, I think our understanding of the terms Joy, Sorrow and Prayer might be different. When I talk about serenity when in the Flow I do not mean emotions like Joy or Sorrow. For me, Joy and Sorrow and Prayer are very closely linked to Desire. If I desire something and then I attain my desire I will experience joy at having attained my desire. If I fail to attain that which I desire then I experience sorrow. Prayer (supplication) is also closely linked to desire, for what does one pray for if not the thing that one desires.

The serenity of which I speak is more like a suspension of Desire whereby attainment or failure, gain or loss become of no consequence whatsoever. It is a freedom from the angst that comes with desiring. So when you say this:

Thus the I am, the spirit experiences with the faculties of the spirit. As you have correctly noted, many experience this during intense moments of joy or sorrow or prayer. Joy, sorrow and prayer are such intense experiences that the brain/astral faculties are silenced for a moment and the spirit can then attune itself to the power of God. In an instant, the spirit becomes aware of its smallness in comparison to the all embracing power of God. All the limitation devised by the human brain or mind is burst asunder and the spirit experiences pure joy.

. . . I simply cannot relate because I see joy as being a very carnal experience. Of course I am only seeing things from my experience and I don't know everything.

When I talk about being in the Flow I do not mean that my sense of Identity changes, but rather that I do not have a sense of identity at all. The Carnal mode of experiencing is threefold, (a) of a Subject (the identity, I) (b) acting or being acted upon (c) by an object. eg. (a)I (b) throw (c) the ball. In the Flow there is no such distinction. No Identity of subject separate from Object, or even separate from the action.
It is this realisation that the sense of Identity is not absolute that leads me to question whether it can pass on from one incarnation unto another. The sense of Identity is a function of the Carnal mind.

The brain (physical) and all the other bodies are simply instruments for the spirit. It is the spirit that uses the instrument and thus responsible for whatever the various instruments did or did not do. One cannot even make a slight movement without it been first willed by the spirit. The spirit has the God given ability to make these instruments to reflect the nature or attributes of the spirit. Prophets and finally the son of God Jesus came to school the human spirit on how to use his instruments but all fell on deaf ear. Every spirit that will incarnate on earth have an outermost body called the ethereal body. The spirit forms and reforms this ethereal body according to how he expresses his free will. Thus for instance, a man goes on murdering his fellow men. The physical murder which many can observe is not the origin. The origin lies in the the decison by the spirit to murder. Depending on the person, this decision by the spirit will finally reach the brain and thoughts of murder and how to initiate it then arise. The lever that set in motion the process of murder lies with the free will of the spirit. This decision by the spirit imprints itself on the ethereal body , and this imprint will influence the time, circumstances and even the genes this murderous soul will inherit. Thus all our sins and good deeds from one earth life to another are imprinted in our soul or the ethereal body of the spirit. This can be seen by those whose ethereal eyes are open. For instance, women who have aborted babies have little children body hanging on their neck. All of us carry our activities clearly marked in our souls. Thus if a spirit has used his instrument to generate gabbage, then he must taste the gabbage to redeem himself or fall further. Only in experiencing what we offer to others will we recognise wheather the seeds we sowed are bitter or sweet. What a man sows, he reaps is a law of God. One more point is that the imprints on the ethereal body are not part of the spirit, they only cling to the spirit like if a diamond is covered with mud. Thus it is possible to wash away sins----------reincarnation is an opprtunity offered by the grace of God to do just that. Stay blessed.

I don't really see how this relates to reincarnation, but it is your statement that murder and evil is an act of the spirit's freewill that leads me to think that we mean totally different things by spirit. I am of the persuasion that impulses to error and ungodliness come from the carnal passions. They are motivated by Fear.

@Pastor AIO,

Thank you for your well reasoned response. I address them as follows:

@m_nwankwo,

Thank you for your response.  I think that terminology might be getting in the way of our understanding each other.  We ought to make clear and defined what we are saying. 

For instance it is possible that we don't mean the same thing when we say Spirit.  So I think that it might be better to use the word entity.  So a person is an Entity that gets cloaked in various bodies would be your position. 

Secondly, I think our understanding of the terms Joy, Sorrow and Prayer might be different.  When I talk about serenity when in the Flow I do not mean emotions like Joy or Sorrow.  For me, Joy and Sorrow and Prayer are very closely linked to Desire.  If I desire something and then I attain my desire I will experience joy at having attained my desire.  If I fail to attain that which I desire then I experience sorrow.  Prayer (supplication) is also closely linked to desire, for what does one pray for if not the thing that one desires. 

The serenity of which I speak is more like a suspension of Desire whereby attainment or failure, gain or loss become of no consequence whatsoever.  It is a freedom from the angst that comes with desiring.  So when you say this:

It may well be that terminology is a problem. One way of getting around it is for you to explain what you mean by spirit. I think that I have already explained what I mean by spirit but I can restate if need be. It will be wrong for me to presume what you mean. All I can say is to relate my experience. The joy and sorrow that I refer to is not the result of fufilment on non fufilment of an earthly desire, rather it is deep experiences that can silence the activity of the human brain and mind and allow the owner (the spirit) to attune to itself to God. Such experiences are transformational and changes the man. It is not a transient phenomenon. In my view, their can be no development without desiring. The problem is what is being desired. I agree that carnal or earthly  desires are wrong but what of the desire to obey the will of God, the desire to love God, the desire to love your fellow men etc. Even the stillness or serenity you seem to talk about comes about by the desire of such a spirit to attain that level of awarenes, that is why the person goes into processes (meditation, prayer) that leads to the attainment of the "flow" Thus I agree that carnal desires can and should be erased (not just suspended) but I disagree that desire, that is longing is carnal. The carnality or non carnality is determined by what is longed for. The purpose of a spirit is to long for his creator and live every second of his existence in service to the creator. Inner peace or serenity is achieved when the spirit submits and lives according to the will of God. When one submits to the will of God, then he is free from carnal desires but not desire as whole. Such a spirit is in  in synchronism with the power of God. Such experience actually strengtens the longing to serve God. Thus I do not believe that their is a consciousness that abrogates the longing for God and his will. An if the longing for God is, then the doctrine of desireless counsciousness is an illusion since the longing for God is a desire.

When I talk about being in the Flow I do not mean that my sense of Identity changes, but rather that I do not have a sense of identity at all.  The Carnal mode of experiencing is threefold, (a)  of a Subject (the identity, I) (b) acting or being acted upon (c) by an object.  eg.  (a)I (b) throw (c) the ball.  In the Flow there is no such distinction.  No Identity of subject separate from Object, or even separate from the action. 
It is this realisation that the sense of Identity is not absolute that leads me to question whether it can pass on from one incarnation unto another.  The sense of Identity is a function of the Carnal mind.

The fact that you are aware of what you define as flow already shows that you have identity. In this case , the state of identity is that their is no identity as defined by "subject being acted upon by an object" Besides such a definition is personal to  to the person defining it. In my view the experience where their is no separation between object and subject is just a state of consciousness where the one experiencing it have either tranceded his default level of consciousness or has lost the ability to recognise his default level of counciousness. Thus what he originally considered as object-subject in counsciouness A has no distinction in counsciousness B and yet at counciousness C, he recognises that counciousness B actually have object-subject relation ship but that is only recognisable at higher counsciousness C, etc. All these varying levels of counsciousness is limited to that particular individual. Identity in my view is a cumulation of all the decisions made by the spirit. And since the spirit is what incarnates, it has this history in itself and carry it from one incarnation to another. Thus I don not agree that suspension or ceasation of object-subject relation ship during flow is an alteration of the identity of the spirit.  If he is an evil man, he wakes up from the flow and his evil is still there with him. My point is this: free will is in the spirit, not in the brain, the mind or all the other bodies I have mentioned.  It is this free will that gives each spirit its identity. 

  don't really see how this relates to reincarnation, but it is your statement that murder and evil is an act of the spirit's freewill that leads me to think that we mean totally different things by spirit.  I am of the persuasion that impulses to error and ungodliness come from the carnal passions.  They are motivated by Fear. 

You may help out by defining what  spirit is so that I can understand you better. Is error and ungodliness not carnal passions or impulses? To say that carnal passions or impulses come from canal passions or impulses does not explain anything to me. Who decides to lie, to murder, to do evil? Who decides to fear? Stay blessed.
[quote][/quote]

God is the ultimate judge of all and he himself sees the heart of every living creature. for us christians we have to reason with the scriptures. we know there is going to be a ressuration of both the righteous and the unrighteous (Act 24:15) the unrigthteous people are the people who did not get the chance to hear about our God and creator and accepted jesus as their lord and savior during their live time (children are included since they were not able to make that decision) (even our great, great , great grand parents who only knew Ome nana or their culture as form of worship)

these people will be thought the truth about or God within that 1000 years the devil will be chained and after they have learned the truth, it will be solely upto them to decide which path they will choose. the people who did not accept the reign of our lord jesus will be destroy (Hades)

God is full of love and cannot be associated with anything evil. If we human can see how bad sending a child to hell is (as you put it) how much more God who exudes, kindness, meekness and love

Cheers

God in his mercy would not judge anyone based on their religion.Each soul would simply be judge according to their deeds being a christian,muslim or any is not a ticket to heaven.
Religion is an institution which you might have to pass thru in other to proceed to the next level of existence,if you like you can call it heaven.It prepares you and guide you to the right way and path in other for you to succed,however if you choose not to belong to any religion it is at your risk if you are confident you could pull thru without religion.There are basic rules you need to adhere to weather you re into religion or not which so many of us know and you find them in various religion books i.e love you neighbours as your self, do unto others as you want them to do unto you etc.You do not necessarily have to belong to any religion before you follow these strict rules.

At the end of your life in this world you will be judge acoordinly if you pass the you procede to next level of existence,a place far more better than where you re coming but if you fail you will be given a chance to go back and redeem your self.Its like you repeating a class and if you make a mess of it again then you re on your way to lower world,a level lower than the one you failed.If you like call it hell there and then you will learn ur lessons.

m_nwankwo:

@Pastor AIO,

Thank you for your well reasoned response. I address them as follows:

It may well be that terminology is a problem. One way of getting around it is for you to explain what you mean by spirit. I think that I have already explained what I mean by spirit but I can restate if need be. It will be wrong for me to presume what you mean. All I can say is to relate my experience. The joy and sorrow that I refer to is not the result of fufilment on non fufilment of an earthly desire, rather it is deep experiences that can silence the activity of the human brain and mind and allow the owner (the spirit) to attune to itself to God. Such experiences are transformational and changes the man. It is not a transient phenomenon. In my view, their can be no development without desiring. The problem is what is being desired. I agree that carnal or earthly  desires are wrong but what of the desire to obey the will of God, the desire to love God, the desire to love your fellow men etc. Even the stillness or serenity you seem to talk about comes about by the desire of such a spirit to attain that level of awarenes, that is why the person goes into processes (meditation, prayer) that leads to the attainment of the "flow" Thus I agree that carnal desires can and should be erased (not just suspended) but I disagree that desire, that is longing is carnal. The carnality or non carnality is determined by what is longed for. The purpose of a spirit is to long for his creator and live every second of his existence in service to the creator. Inner peace or serenity is achieved when the spirit submits and lives according to the will of God. When one submits to the will of God, then he is free from carnal desires but not desire as whole. Such a spirit is in  in synchronism with the power of God. Such experience actually strengtens the longing to serve God. Thus I do not believe that their is a consciousness that abrogates the longing for God and his will. An if the longing for God is, then the doctrine of desireless counsciousness is an illusion since the longing for God is a desire.


The fact that you are aware of what you define as flow already shows that you have identity. In this case , the state of identity is that their is no identity as defined by "subject being acted upon by an object" Besides such a definition is personal to  to the person defining it. In my view the experience where their is no separation between object and subject is just a state of consciousness where the one experiencing it have either tranceded his default level of consciousness or has lost the ability to recognise his default level of counciousness. Thus what he originally considered as object-subject in counsciouness A has no distinction in counsciousness B and yet at counciousness C, he recognises that counciousness B actually have object-subject relation ship but that is only recognisable at higher counsciousness C, etc. All these varying levels of counsciousness is limited to that particular individual. Identity in my view is a cumulation of all the decisions made by the spirit. And since the spirit is what incarnates, it has this history in itself and carry it from one incarnation to another. Thus I don not agree that suspension or ceasation of object-subject relation ship during flow is an alteration of the identity of the spirit.  If he is an evil man, he wakes up from the flow and his evil is still there with him. My point is this: free will is in the spirit, not in the brain, the mind or all the other bodies I have mentioned.  It is this free will that gives each spirit its identity. 


You may help out by defining what  spirit is so that I can understand you better. Is error and ungodliness not carnal passions or impulses? To say that carnal passions or impulses come from canal passions or impulses does not explain anything to me. Who decides to lie, to murder, to do evil? Who decides to fear? Stay blessed.

Sorry for the long delay M_Nwankwo.  I felt the thread was getting rather complicated and I need to properly sort out my arguments otherwise nothing will be gained from the exchange. 

I also feel the need to stress that much of what I'm saying is not doctrinal but rather my own speculations based on my experiences. 

I think that our dialogue is going off on many different directions at once and it is important to streamline it.  I want to just stick with the matter of Identity and whether it can travel from one incarnation to another.

The fact that you are aware of what you define as flow already shows that you have identity. In this case , the state of identity is that their is no identity as defined by "subject being acted upon by an object" Besides such a definition is personal to  to the person defining it.

You see, the statement above which is in bold is important.  It is something that simply cannot be explained but rather has to be experienced otherwise it will just sound like rubbish.  It is possible to have awareness without Identity.  I repeat, It is possible to be aware without having Identity.  I appreciate the fact that that doesn't make sense to you.

Identity is a distinguishing thing.  It is defining.  When I say I am a man I am distinguishing myself from women.  When I define myself I am distinguishing and separating myself from all those things that I am not.  Identity says that I am this rather than that.  In 'normal' consciousness the identity is associated most often with the body and it is this that we point to when we want to identify ourselves.   Other people build other associations onto the identity.  Like their tribes, race, their type of job, their political affiliations etc.  Of course what happens is that they go through a life shattering sense of loss and psychological turmoil when, for instance, they lose their jobs.  Some people feel like their entire existence was a sham when their false sense of identity gets shattered like this.

But to get back on track . . .  ,  The sense of Identity distinguishes one from one's environment and even one's actions.  So when one has an experience in which subject, the environment (object), and activity become coterminous, the person cannot be said to have an identity.  Nothing is distinguishable from anything else.   So the fact that there is awareness does not suggest that there is Identity.  There is just awareness.  Is it the ball being aware of me throwing it, or Me being aware of throwing the ball, or even the Throwing being aware of the subject and the object?  They have all become Coterminous. 

I am not suggesting that one type of Awareness is superior to the other or that one is more real than the other.  All I am saying is that Identity can be dissolved, it is not eternal and so therefore it is just a function of being and not the core of being. 

You may disagree on the basis that you've had autobiographical memories of passed lives.  I don't doubt that.  But have you ever had autobiographical memories of contemporary lives?  What I mean is have you ever experienced something that is happening to someone else as if it were happening to you?  Yet that person is still alive so you are not that person.  If you've ever had such an experience then that will allow you to question your autobiographical memories of past lives.  It doesn't necessarily mean that you were that person in that past life. 

We all have numerous varying experiences.  However our interpretations of those experiences are a different kettle of fish from the reality of those experiences.  For example it is a fact that Rocks fall to the ground when dropped.  However it is just speculation whether what makes them fall is Newton's gravitational force or whether it is Einstein's gravity due to the bending of spacetime.  The only thing you know for sure is that the rock falls, not what makes it fall. 

The same with these autobiographical memories of previous lives.  The fact is that they happen.  However that doesn't mean that you were that previous person and you've migrated into another incarnation.  Of course it is a possible explanation, but it is not a fact like the experience of the memory is  a fact. 

Another possible explanation, and one which I favour more, is that when the identity gets increasingly dissolved then consciousness becomes increasingly coterminous with the entire universe across space, and all time which includes the past.  In such a state one can gain access to other life memories and senses of identity that exist across the whole of human history. 

I hope this makes sense to you.

Sorry for the long delay M_Nwankwo.  I felt the thread was getting rather complicated and I need to properly sort out my arguments otherwise nothing will be gained from the exchange. 

I also feel the need to stress that much of what I'm saying is not doctrinal but rather my own speculations based on my experiences. 

I think that our dialogue is going off on many different directions at once and it is important to streamline it.  I want to just stick with the matter of Identity and whether it can travel from one incarnation to another.

Thank you Pastor. I always respect your views even when I disagree with it. The reason is simple and that is that you are given form to your experiences and not what you read or learnt.

You see, the statement above which is in bold is important.  It is something that simply cannot be explained but rather has to be experienced otherwise it will just sound like rubbish.  It is possible to have awareness without Identity.  I repeat, It is possible to be aware without having Identity.  I appreciate the fact that that doesn't make sense to you

It actually makes sense to me because I have experienced what you seem to be describing during a stage in my spiritual development. Thus my point is not that one cannot experience a conterminous event, rather it is that it is the perception of the event that is conterminous and this perception is dependent on the level of awareness or consciousness of the individual.

Identity is a distinguishing thing.  It is defining.  When I say I am a man I am distinguishing myself from women.  When I define myself I am distinguishing and separating myself from all those things that I am not.  Identity says that I am this rather than that.  In 'normal' consciousness the identity is associated most often with the body and it is this that we point to when we want to identify ourselves.   Other people build other associations onto the identity.  Like their tribes, race, their type of job, their political affiliations etc.  Of course what happens is that they go through a life shattering sense of loss and psychological turmoil when, for instance, they lose their jobs.  Some people feel like their entire existence was a sham when their false sense of identity gets shattered like this

I agree with you that in "normal" counsciousness, identity is often associated with the body. But that type of identity is not what I meant in our discussions. In my view identity are actions and reactions due to the exersise of our free will. That gives each person his personality and personality traits. Because man make choices(spiritual, mental, physical etc), the reactions of these choices gives him or her an identity or a personality. Certain levels of consciousness may give the perception of absense of identity but it is only a perception of the experience and not the experience itself. That is why I have often stated that the level of awareness or consciousness determines how events or things are percified. Personality traits like love, jealousy, kindness, compassion, honesty, dishonesty, serenity, anger, aggressiveness, impertubtability etc are what define our identity as I see it. My point is that no level of awareness can wipe or dissolve these traits except the spirit whose free will choices gave rise to them in the first place changes by making different choices. Some level of awareness may temporarily alter or dissolve the perception of these personality traits but the reality in my view is not that these personality traits are dissolved, rather the state of consciousness makes it impossible to percieve them.

But to get back on track . . .  ,  The sense of Identity distinguishes one from one's environment and even one's actions.  So when one has an experience in which subject, the environment (object), and activity become coterminous, the person cannot be said to have an identity.  Nothing is distinguishable from anything else.   So the fact that there is awareness does not suggest that there is Identity.  There is just awareness.  Is it the ball being aware of me throwing it, or Me being aware of throwing the ball, or even the Throwing being aware of the subject and the object?  They have all become Coterminous. 

I am not suggesting that one type of Awareness is superior to the other or that one is more real than the other.  All I am saying is that Identity can be dissolved, it is not eternal and so therefore it is just a function of being and not the core of being. 

You are able to distinguish you, the ball and the thowing because the time between the subject, object, and action has a lapse perceptible to the physical eye or the faculties of the brain. If the speed is increased such that  the time lapse donot exist anymore, then you the subject will see the whole thing as conterminous and instantaneous. If you again reverse the process by slowing it down, that is deceasisng the speed, then subject, object, action appears again. Counsciousness or awareness determines the speed of perception.

Identity is not eternal if it is formed in contradiction to the will of God and in this case it will be dissolved. If however identity is acquired according to the will of God, then God will permit it to exist foreever. Spirits that return to paradise have acquired their identity or personality according to the will of God and have a personal consciousness that is eternal. Thus dissolution of a personality or an identity acquired according to the will of God is impossible. In my view the purpose of our entire spiritual development is to acquire an identity, a personality that is pleasing to God.

You may disagree on the basis that you've had autobiographical memories of passed lives.  I don't doubt that.  But have you ever had autobiographical memories of contemporary lives?  What I mean is have you ever experienced something that is happening to someone else as if it were happening to you?  Yet that person is still alive so you are not that person.  If you've ever had such an experience then that will allow you to question your autobiographical memories of past lives.  It doesn't necessarily mean that you were that person in that past life

Yes I do disagree. I have had autobiographical memories of my former lives. I have not had autobiographical memories of contemporarily lives. Therefore I have no reason to question my experiences of memories from past earthlives.  I will not have autobiographical memories of contemporarily lives. However I accept that some people do have them.

We all have numerous varying experiences.  However our interpretations of those experiences are a different kettle of fish from the reality of those experiences.  For example it is a fact that Rocks fall to the ground when dropped.  However it is just speculation whether what makes them fall is Newton's gravitational force or whether it is Einstein's gravity due to the bending of spacetime.  The only thing you know for sure is that the rock falls, not what makes it fall. 

The same with these autobiographical memories of previous lives.  The fact is that they happen.  However that doesn't mean that you were that previous person and you've migrated into another incarnation.  Of course it is a possible explanation, but it is not a fact like the experience of the memory is  a fact. 

Another possible explanation, and one which I favour more, is that when the identity gets increasingly dissolved then consciousness becomes increasingly coterminous with the entire universe across space, and all time which includes the past.  In such a state one can gain access to other life memories and senses of identity that exist across the whole of human history. 

I hope this makes sense to you.

You made sense Pastor. I see your point  but it is possible to know something for certain although it may be difficult or impossible to explain it to others. If one is gifted by God in these matters, it is possible to gain acesss to memories of the past, the present and the future without loss of identity and it is possible to easily distiguish memories gained from tapping into the "universal consciousnes" from memories gained from past earth lifes or memories gained from autobiographical records of contemporarly lives. Thus for me reincarnation is an absolute certainty. But then others may percieve it differently. Stay blessed.

Death Children Go to HELL, because they refused to stay and grow old!,they are already welcome to HELL!!

I think we all are pegans by saying the same thing.
This innocent children go back to meet thier creator.

Death Children Go to HELL, because they refused to stay and grow old!,they are already welcome to HELL!!

Ogaga4Luv:

Death Children Go to HELL, because they refused to stay and grow old!,they are already welcome to HELL!!

This is not funny.

and the same xtianity preached about original sins, when jesus said children will go to heaven,meaning theres nothing like original sin from Adam and they are not subjected to it, cos if they are, they will all go to hell, and it will contradict jesus words, i just pray people should wise up and know God forgave Adam and Eve, so no course to do any baptism

@ Topic

Did u mean that xtainity never educate u on that?. ur religion has disappointed u. what a shame.If truly ur religion is frm God(not the 1/3 god) u are supposed to be educated about the topic, can u see the incompleteness in Christianity?



I challenge u to post this topic to Muslim board and u will get a reasonable and valid reply.

There is not even a Bible verse that deals with it.
Not one.

fellis:

There is not even a Bible verse that deals with it.
Not one.

This really exposes the incompleteness in there religion called xtainity.

xtians where do ur dead children go to?

RedHotChic:
The bible said that only born again christians shall enter heaven. What of children that died in infancy or too little to know what religion is all about?. Children born out of christian homes but not yet old enough to decide for themselves?. Will God throw them into hell because they were not born again before death? What is the age limit required by God to hold anybody responsible for his/her evil ways?

Mind you, God does not throw anybody into hell. What you sow is what you reap! The Word of God is clear, His Will perfect! Not everyone you see in the University passes in exams and graduate, you cannot blame the lecturers for those who failed in as much as they were given same lectures with those that passed and graduated. Ignorance is not an excuse! What you people call "born again" is nothing but self delusion! Even a child that's born today is never innocent for the simple fact that nobody you see presently on earth is here for the first time! We have all come and gone, come and gone but keep abusing God's great grace of re-incarnation in order to redeem our past guilts and karma. There's no situation man finds himself that he himself did not create. Whether good or bad, he created it for himself either in this present earth life or in the past earth life. God is too just and holy to allow one suffer what he or she do not deserve or created for him or herself.
For this reason, the Bringer of the Grail Message admonishes: "keep the hearth of thy thoughts pure by so doing you will bring peace and be happy!"

alimat2:
@ Topic

Did u mean that xtainity never educate u on that?. ur religion has disappointed u. what a shame.If truly ur religion is frm God(not the 1/3 god) u are supposed to be educated about the topic, can u see the incompleteness in Christianity?



I challenge u to post this topic to Muslim board and u will get a reasonable and valid reply.

Please I want you as a Muslim to through light on it to the best of your knowledge acquired from Islam.

alimat2:


This really exposes the incompleteness in there religion called xtainity.

xti
ns where do ur dead children go to?

Don't sound like you yourself know the truth behind what she ask. She did not ask as one who has mastered Christianity and her teachings but simply as one seeking for knowledge about a particular thing.
You will be surprised if I tell you that what you people interpret and believe to be "JIHAD" isn't what prophet Muhammed taught.
There's no religion on earth without its error and misinterpretations for the simple truth that none of it was willed by God!
God sent Divine Messages through prophets and called ones to help mankind in their development but the followers of those bringers of the Messages made the greatest mistake by turning those Messages into religions. Religions brought hate, envy, jingoism and fight against one another, any sane person would know that such is never the Will of God for His people.
Free yourselves from religious slavery and seek for real knowledge. And the Truth in the Knowledge shall set you free!