Scholar8200:
Before the resurrection of Christ.

You said before the resurrection of Christ, righteous people went to the bosom of Abraham at death. (!!!)

Where did Adam and Abel go at their death, since Abraham had not been born at that time?

Why are you lying like this?
Why?

Scholar8200:
Those who were martyred in Revelations 6 were not found in Abraham's bosom but in Heaven. The Innumerable company of those redeemed in Revelations 7 were found at the Throne, not Abraham's bosom. Now Bible speaks of the resurrection of saints after Christ resurrected, did they just resurrect and went back to the grave? NO!

So you are saying the righteous ones has started resurrecting to heaven even from Abraham's time?

Scholar8200:
Before the resurrection of Christ.

Jesus was (and is still) righteous. When he died, was he taken to Abraham's bosom? Was it from Abraham's bosom that Jesus was resurrected?

Can't believe somebody will lie blatantly like this.

Scholar8200:
Those who were martyred in Revelations 6 were not found in Abraham's bosom but in Heaven. The Innumerable company of those redeemed in Revelations 7 were found at the Throne, not Abraham's bosom. Now Bible speaks of the resurrection of saints after Christ resurrected, did they just resurrect and went back to the grave? NO!

If Abraham's bosom is a temporary abode for the righteous, show us from the Bible when Abraham himself will be transported to Heaven.

Scholar8200:
Abraham's bosom is not heaven.

Matthew 27:52 read and learn
What is the abyss? The pit is one of the synonyms for Sheol!
http://biblehub.com/strongs/hebrew/7585.htm abyss means bottomless, an adjective describing the pit!

Abyss is not the same as hell,hades,Sheol,grave or the world of mankind where even righteous ones are according to the scriptures.

When it was opened in revelations 9:1,2 it was even locust that came out interestingly the Bible didn't mention dead people.

You mix everything together.

Satan will even be cast into abyss before the one thousand year reign of Christ.

Scholar8200:
I meant the part in Revelations 20 where fire will destroy those that try to fight against the camp of the saints, after which follows the Judgement found in Verse 11-15

If Jesus' parable about the rich man and Lazarus was talking about the fate of the dead: Where is the rich man now? Is he still burning?

The bolded part above: will the rich man be among them?

goodnews201668:


Abyss is not the same as hell,hades,Sheol,grave or the world of mankind where even righteous ones are according to the scriptures.

When it was opened in revelations 9:1,2 it was even locust that came out interestingly the Bible didn't mention dead people.

You mix everything together.

Satan will even be cast into abyss before the one thousand year reign of Christ.

Where did I say abyss was hell?
visit the link posted on this issue of abyss and pit.

DoctorAlien:


Jesus was (and is still) righteous. When he died, was he taken to Abraham's bosom? Was it from Abraham's bosom that Jesus was resurrected?

Can't believe somebody will lie blatantly like this.

As much revealed in Scripture is that He said to the thief on the Cross,''this day you shall be with me in paradise''. Moreover, Peter revealed that He also went to the spirits in prison (the only place that implies is the same place where the devil will be imprisoned for 1k years).

DoctorAlien:


Jesus was (and is still) righteous. When he died, was he taken to Abraham's bosom? Was it from Abraham's bosom that Jesus was resurrected?

Can't believe somebody will lie blatantly like this.

As much revealed in Scripture is that He said to the thief on the Cross,''this day you shall be with me in paradise''. Moreover, Peter revealed that He also went to the spirits in prison (the only place that implies is the same place where the devil will be imprisoned for 1k years).
After His resurrection, He plainly said ,''I have NOT yet ASCENDED to my Father!

goodnews201668:


So you are saying the righteous ones has started resurrecting to heaven even from Abraham's time?

what gives you that impression? That is Not correct!

Scholar8200:
As much revealed in Scripture is that He said to the thief on the Cross,''this day you shall be with me in paradise''. Moreover, Peter revealed that He also went to the spirits in prison (the only place that implies is the same place where the devil will be imprisoned for 1k years).

So you mean the souls are in the bottomless pit? Because that is where Satan will be imprisoned for the millenium. Rev. 20.

Scholar8200:
As much revealed in Scripture is that He said to the thief on the Cross,''this day you shall be with me in paradise''. Moreover, Peter revealed that He also went to the spirits in prison (the only place that implies is the same place where the devil will be imprisoned for 1k years).
After His resurrection, He plainly said ,''I have NOT yet ASCENDED to my Father!

If Jesus went to Paradise at His death, how then did He preach to the Souls in prison? Or were the souls in Paradise too?

DoctorAlien:


You said before the resurrection of Christ, righteous people went to the bosom of Abraham at death. (!!!)

Where did Adam and Abel go at their death, since Abraham had not been born at that time?

Why are you lying like this?
Why?

Abraham? Jesus Himself speaks of where he was!
Abel, Noah etc, were mentioned for their faith in Hebrews 11, I am persuaded that those are the people Abraham, Isaac, Jacob etc were gathered to at death. Calling it Abraham's bosom does not necessarily mean he had to be the first there!

Scholar8200:
Did you not read that Death and Hell were cast into the Lake of Fire? Realise that Hell/Sheol has the bottomless pit (Revelations 9:1,2) as a part.

You said hell/Sheol has the bottomless pit.

That's not what the Bible said, hell/Sheol is the world of the dead and it's not a physical place.

While abyss is a different place, not a place of the dead. A bottomless pit, or place of restraint.
Someone maybe alive and be in abyss, when it was opened in revelations 9:1-3 it was figurative locusts that came out not dead people.
Chapter of Revelations shows that satan will be cast and chained into abyss and will be released after the one thousand year reign of Christ.

DoctorAlien:


In what Bible do those chapters reveal such a lie?

Can't believe this.

You dont have to!
Where do you find it that what separates Heaven and Hell is a big gulf? Jesus was at paradise and also the prison but after resurrection said He had not ascended to the Father that tells you that Heaven is neither of those initial destinations He went after He died!

Scholar8200:

Abraham? Jesus Himself speaks of where he was!
Abel, Noah etc, were mentioned for their faith in Hebrews 11, I am persuaded that those are the people Abraham, Isaac, Jacob etc were gathered to at death. Calling it Abraham's bosom does not necessarily mean he had to be the first there!

See another lie. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were gathered to Adam and Abel at their death? (Chei !!!) Where does the Bible say that?

The bolded part above: when did doctrines become a matter of personal persuasion?

DoctorAlien:


At last, when the righteous are in heaven. Who will the wicked beg to be sent and to whom are they going to be sent?

At last, there will be no wicked on earth, see Revelations 20:15

goodnews201668:


And what about that portion suggests that Sheol or world of the dead is a bottomless pit?
Na waoo

which portion?

Scholar8200:

You dont have to!
Where do you find it that what separates Heaven and Hell is a big gulf? Jesus was at paradise and also the prison but after resurrection said He had not ascended to the Father that tells you that Heaven is neither of those initial destinations He went after He died!

So Paradise is not Heaven? Jesus took the repentant thief to Paradise and left him there?

Meanwhile, who said that a big gulf separates Heaven and hell?

Scholar8200:

At last, there will be no wicked on earth, see Revelations 20:15

When GOD will rain fire on brimstone and the wicked at last, where will they emerge from?

promisechuks:


What are the commandments that jesus gave for
the purpose of eternity that is other than; whosoever that shall call upon me shall be saved and be given a GIFT(what we don't work for) of eternal life.

Because jesus gave us no law or laws, he came to give us what self righteousness(law keeping) cannot give us, that's why it's called grace.

What Jesus said in mattew 5, was to prove the laws of moses wrong, to correct it's flaws and to tell the pharisees that though they keep the law, still there laws are filled with unrighteousness, and that they are not keeping it well.

And if you look at the correction of Jesus, it is more harsh than the law of moses. Because jesus said; anyone who shall see a woman and have lust in her without even touching the person has already committed the sin of adultery or fornication. Very harsh!

That's why they became angry at Jesus, saying that he was trying to abolish the law.

When jesus was in this world, he had a hard time with the pharisees and scribes, because they felt so self righteous, holier than thou attitude, that Jesus was trying his best to make them know that they are so sinful despite there self righteousness, law keeping, and to convict them of their unrighteousness.

Then, he said that nothing shall be removed from the law, TILL ALL BE FUFILLED.

All was fulfilled at the cross when he died and the presence of the lord departed from the holies of holies chamber of the temple.

And immediately the law became abolished!

So now, you live rightly by the fruit of the spirit so that people around you will enjoy the virtues that you have in you(salt of the world) and not to make eternal life because eternal is a gift(that no work can merit because if so, then christ's death is a big WASTE) and a not reward because christ has don it all

All you said is true. Yes eternal life can not be worked for or purchased, no. But there's what to do after you have received eternal life. Matt: 3:8 say; Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance. Don't think because you have received the free gift of salvation you will go on living your life as before.

Romans 12:2 Do not be conformed to this world (this age), [fashioned after and adapted to its external, superficial customs], but be transformed (changed) by the [entire] renewal of your mind [by its new ideals and its new attitude], so that you may prove [for yourselves] what is the good and acceptable and perfect will of God, even the thing which is good and acceptable and perfect [in His sight for you].

Transformation can not happen if there wasn't a former state. Renewal like wise needs a former state. Before we received the gift of salvation, we were living in conformity to the external superficial customs of this world, but now that we have received this gift, we are admonished to change from who we were to Conform to the new nature of and in Christ.
John 15 from 1 to the end addresses believers not unbelievers. We need to bear fruits meet for repentance, what are the fruits?
If we receive repentance but sit on it, we will be likened to a servant who received his own talent but instead of multiplying it, he dogged the ground and buried it.

Scholar8200:

Abraham? Jesus Himself speaks of where he was! [s]Abel, Noah etc, were mentioned for their faith in Hebrews 11,[/s] I am persuaded that those are the people Abraham, Isaac, Jacob etc were gathered to at death. Calling it Abraham's bosom does not necessarily mean he had to be the first there!

Don't import irrelevant matters into the argument.

goodnews201668:
I

Abraham wasn't in heaven before Christ death, that one is certain.
The door of going to heaven was opened to humans after the death of Christ (John 3:13)shows that no man has ascended to heaven except Jesus that came from heaven.

Revelations 5:9,10 shows that Christ was slaughtered and with his BLOOD he bought people from earth and made to be a kingdom and priest and they are to rule the earth!
Stop misinterpreting the Bible.

Yes, we will rule the Earth at the Millenial reign
Revelation 20:1-3

Before then, they ALL will be in Heaven Revelation 7:9, Rev 19:9

Scholar8200:

Abraham? Jesus Himself speaks of where he was!
Abel, Noah etc, were mentioned for their faith in Hebrews 11, I am persuaded that those are the people Abraham, Isaac, Jacob etc were gathered to at death. Calling it Abraham's bosom does not necessarily mean he had to be the first there!

If Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were gathered to Adam and Abel at their death, to whom were Adam and Abel gathered at their own death?

Scholar8200:
which portion?

What about that Bible portion that suggested hell is abyss or bottomless pit?

@ scholar8200, going up and down about what happens to man when he dies is not necessary, this view that a part of man survives death is wrong, the scriptures never taught us so.

The scriptures had told us how man was made, the process and the components in which man was created. none of this includes giving man a soul. The scriptures had irrevocably said " MAN BECAME A LIVING SOUL".

The God that created adam also told adam what will happen to him at death, God said :
King James Version
Ge 3:17And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

look at the underlined above, are you saying that God lied and Adam is still eating from the ground in hell? when the days of Adams life ended, surely he stopped eating right? therefore adam did not continue his life elsewhere!
King James Version
Ge 3:19In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

look at the verse above, did God say " your body returns to the ground" ? no!, did God say part of you return to the ground" ? no!. God say "you", the person , returns to the ground, cus you where taken from the ground(read gen 2:7).
what did God say we are , he said we are dust!

when God made man, he formed the dust into flesh, before giving it life, this status of man was made known by God in the scripture below,(I'll quote more than one teanslation)

[color=red]New International Version
Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal; their days will be a hundred and twenty years."

New Living Translation
Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not put up with humans for such a long time, for they are only mortal flesh. In the future, their normal lifespan will be....
are you saying that God is lying here when he said that you are mortal? that in reality you are immortal, but just living in a mortal body?, God is referring to the real you or me here, he was not talking about a part of you. humans are mortals with a lifespan. They are living souls that stop living when they die.

now let's go further to what happens to that living soul when it dies.
The scriptures tells us these:
King James Version
Ps 104:29Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.

King James Version
Ec 3:20All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

King James Version
Job 10:9Remember, I beseech thee, that thou hast made me as the clay; and wilt thou bring me into dust again?

When man dies, his spirit leaves him, he( the man, the person) turns to dust!
The scriptures are clear on where man returns to when he dies. All men, you and me, return to the same place adam returned to!

what happens to man at death:
King James Version
Ps 146:4His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
did you read what the psalmist said " in that very day, his thoughts perish" . does this not contradict the view that the rich man had thoughts of his brothers still alive when he had died?
If you believe that the rich man literally had thoughts, then you are saying the bible is contradicting itself? is that so .
King James Version
Ec 9:5For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
can you see what the scripture says here, when you are dead, YOU KNOW NOTHING!, but you want them to know they are burning and in pain right? The scriptures says otherwise.
whichever part of your composition you think is the real concious person, it knows nothing at death!
King James Version
Ec 9:6[u]Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished;[/u] neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
These verse tells you that a dead person has no feelings, it has perished, their love has perished!.
King James Version
Ec 9:10Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
can you see what happens to me and you when we die, no knowledge, no works, no wisdom in the grave/ hell/ pit/ sheol where we will all end up! do you agree with the scriptures or do you disagree with the words of a very wise man inspired by God?!


look at all these other scriptures
Ps 115:17The dead do not praise Jah; Nor do any who go down into the silence of death.

Ps 6:5For in death there is no mention of you; In the Grave, who will praise you?

Ps 146:3, 4Do not put your trust in princes Nor in a son of man, who cannot bring salvation.4His spirit goes out, he returns to the ground; On that very day his thoughts perish.

Isa 38:18For the Grave cannot glorify you, Death cannot praise you. Those who go down into the pit cannot hope for your faithfulness.

Ps 88:10Will you perform wonders for the dead? Can those powerless in death rise up to praise you?

Joh 11:11After he said these things, he added: “Lazʹa·rus our friend has fallen asleep, but I am going to awaken him

Isa 26:14They are dead; they will not live. Powerless in death, they will not rise up. For you have turned your attention to them To annihilate them and destroy all mention of them.

can the soul die? yes
King James Version
Eze 18:4Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

King James Version
Eze 18:20The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

King James Version
Re 16:3And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.

Douay-Rheims Bible
jos 2:13 That you will save my father and mother, my brethren end sisters, and all things that are theirs, and deliver our souls from death

King James Version
Ps 33:19To deliver their soul from death, and to keep them alive in famine.

King James Version
Ps 56:13For thou hast delivered my soul from death: wilt not thou deliver my feet from falling, that I may walk before God in the light of the living?

from the scriptures, weave learnt the soul can refer to the person himself or the life the person has.

Anas09:

Jessicha. What is absurd abt the immotrality of a soul? If a soul is not immortal, why will there be any need for resurrection? Since you the JWs believe that, when man dies it ends there, no after life. What do we do with the scriptures with reference to resurrection? The Bible says, on the last day, everyone shall resurrect, some to life eternal, but some to condemnation, where there's weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matt 13:30. This experience will take place in the realm other than this one. Flesh gets consumed by fire, but the soul doesn't, its your soul which will burn.
Jessicha, whether you consider the teachings of Christ absurd or not. The soul of man is immortal.

If the soul was immortal, then there is no need for a resurrection. You are the confused one here. I might not be a Jehovah's Witness but I agree with much of what they teach cause I have done my own personal research and have discovered the origin of the immortal soul theory. The bible itself makes it clear by saying "The soul that sins shall die.". If you say the soul is immortal, then you are indirectly saying the person is immortal cos' the soul is actually is the person and not another part of the person. The Hebrew and Greek words for soul are "nefesh" and "psykhe" respectively. The words both mean "soul" and "person" and thus the person is the "soul" and recall what the bible says:




"And the LORD God fashioned man of the dust of the earth and breathed into his nostrils, the breath of life and man became a living soul" - Genesis 2:7



The bible makes it clear that man is a soul and he does not have a soul.

@dolphinheart bro, preach!

Scholar8200:

Yes, we will rule the Earth at the Millenial reign
Revelation 20:1-3

Before then, they ALL will be in Heaven Revelation 7:9, Rev 19:9

Let me pretend I agree with you, but the Bible said they were bought from earth with the blood of the lamb.

Is possible for one to make heaven when the lamb has not been slaughtered?
Remember we are talking about Abraham.
Who was long dead before Christ came and sacrificed himself.

Jessicha:

you said

[b] "Because without His Salvation, what we have is shame and EVERLASTING CONTEMPT" [b]

therefore to test the validity of this statement, let's see what happen before Jesus shed his blood for mankind ... where did Abel go when he died? if people ascend to heaven without Jesus sacrifice that proves ur statement above is a pure lie .



they are living to him , on the basis of the Resurrection hope - matt 22:31



stop adding to the word of God

act 13;36 said DAVID , DAVID . DAVID , was laid with his forefathers and did see corruption not skin



this is cool , at least this proves people don't go to heaven to be with Jesus. ... they are assigned to spend their entire life under the altar , if the fifth seal is literal .. the sixth seal is literal too the stars of heaven falling down upon the earth , death riding a horse .. Hades walking .

Omg ! false religion is sick

Jessicha, how did Cain got to know that his sin wasn't hidden? God revealed that to him, how? Because the blood of Abel cried for Vengeance, but from where? Could it be from here?
Revelation 6:9 When the Lamb broke open the fifth seal, I saw at the foot of the altar the souls of those whose lives had been sacrificed for [adhering to] the Word of God and for the testimony they had borne.

And, does blood have a voice? Could it also mean that because the life force which is the spirit of every man is in the blood? Lev. 1:14.

Scholar8200:
As much revealed in Scripture is that He said to the thief on the Cross,''this day you shall be with me in paradise''. Moreover, Peter revealed that He also went to the spirits in prison (the only place that implies is the same place where the devil will be imprisoned for 1k years).

wow, so jesus and the thief went to paradise the same day he died?
The bible says jesus went to hell, therefore paradise is in hell. what happens to paradise when hell is being thrown into the the lake of fire, will paradise experience death too.

now you say peter implied jesus went to preach to the spirits in prison.
Peter said prison ,not hell. and from peters statement he did so after his resurrected, not while he was in hell, after all authority had Been given to him.
spirit of humans don't go to hell or do they? If they do not, Jesus would not have gone to any spirit of man in hell!

by the way, why did Jesus preach to the spirit, to give them a chance of Repentance?

analice107:


Jessicha, how did Cain got to know that his sin wasn't hidden? God revealed that to him, how? Because the blood of Abel cried for Vengeance, but from where? Could it be from here?
Revelation 6:9 When the Lamb broke open the fifth seal, I saw at the foot of the altar the souls of those whose lives had been sacrificed for [adhering to] the of God and for the testimony they had borne.

And, does blood have a voice? Could it also mean that because the life force which is the spirit of every man is in the blood? Lev. 1:14.

replay! God was already talking to cain about sin before died na!

so literally, souls are under the alter and not in paradise, or is paradise at the foot of the alter?

Lev 1: 14?