HardMirror: It makes me remember an incidence that happened in Ido-Osun about 12 years ago. Where a man was bitten by a poisonous snake and instead of going to an hospital, he went to a church. He died some hours later. I remember how chistians were the ones saying the man was a fool.
Wait! Why is the man a fool, does God not claim that when you run to him in days of trouble he will save you? Does he not say "God is a present help in times of trouble?"
Does God not assure us of picking up serpents and stepping on them and not hurting us?

How come all of a sudden same christians that claim to believe in the bible are the ones saying the man was a fool only because the man chose to believe God.

I started hearing them say, "wisdom is profitable to direct". Oh! So it is foolishness to trust the bible and power of God? So it is wisdom to trust doctors that are humans rather than God? Same God that said you should not put your trust in men?
Why do we keep giving excuses for God when he fails?
Imagine if the man had gotten a miracle at the church won't same christians shout and make noise about how awesome God is? But he failed and then you say the man is a fool. Hell yeah! I agree, anyone that believes god is indeed a fool.

This issue is a little bit long and better maturely and separately discussed. It is a matter of UNDERSTANDING really. Bible clearly says that man's ways are different from God's ways and that God's ways are mysterious. That is why we are expected to GROW in knowing Him.
Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
Isa 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
2Pe 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever. Amen.
Col 1:10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;

Nobody here on earth has full/complete knowledge of God. i don't even understand people close to me fully, not to mention God. The capacity is simply not there to fully process Him. However, just like our pets and domestic animals, we can have and grow in partial knowledge of our owners. For instance, a goat may not first know anything about you, but with time, it might come to understanding that a particular place ant time is where it sleeps, eats, a particular sound makes it know there is food etc. It has understood you to some extent compared to before, and to other goats. Same for pets like dogs, cats etc than can be well trained and understand humans to a very large degree. But no matter how smart a dog is, still it cannot fully process we humans or relate like a human to human. Our wisdom and that of animals is even closer than that of humans and the Godhead.
The point i am bringing out of this is that we may not claim to fully understand the Word of God or God Himself, not you not i. However, we have varying degrees of understanding, and i dare say i understand God more than you. You do not even believe He exists BTW so this should not raise an argument as it were.
When a father, or better still, when you as a father tell your child that you are going to help him/her anytime you are called. It is taken for granted that you say it out of love and mutual understanding. If your child says dad help me with my school fees for instance, you would likely help or try to. If the child says dad help me with the dishes, or read for me, dad you promised to help me. i'm not sure you will help in such a case, even when you could. Why, for one reaason, you expect a level of maturity, responsibility and independence from your child. In similar vein, God has created man with SO MUCH so as to be largely independent and able to solve problems and basically survive. He made man Lord of the earth as it were, and gave him dominion, making him just a little lower than angels. There are some things God normally will not help you with, no matter how many promises you quote, especially when it is something you could have taken care of on your own or with the help of others.
Psa 8:4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
Psa 8:5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honor.
Psa 8:6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:

Normally, He doesn't even need to visit us as it were or intervene as much as we want and ask Him to. We are just a little lower than the angels, crowned with glory and honour, and made to have dominion. Sometimes however, God intervenes, what we call miracles. Three main things/causes of His intervention are one His Sovereignty, two Prayers, three Faith.
The Bible does not forbid us from going to the hospital or using medicine. In fact, Paul encouraged Timothy to use wine as some sort of medicine for his FREQUENT infirmities. Anyone running to church instead of the hospital is ON HIS OWN, especially when the hospital can treat him. His decision and model is not Bible based or divinely commanded. Going to the hospital is not mutually exclusive to trusting God or having faith in God. He can still pray in his hospital bed, and he can still die there BTW. His dying there does not mean drugs do not work, just like dying in church does not mean God is not real.
i'll give you four instances/illustrations that explain what i am saying further.
1. There was a sick baby last month, for some reason the parents did not take her to the hospital but were using self medication. When the case got worse, they took her to LUTH. LUTH rejected her saying there was nothing they could do, that it was already late, she should have been brought earlier. They had to take the child home, a baby girl. They sent the request to church for prayers and continued with their medications. The baby girl is better now, she has recovered.

2. There was a man last year, who woke up from bed unable to move from his back up, virtually paralysed. He was 'okay' the previous day, nothing wrong with him. He was rushed to the hospital where they did tests and scans etc and discovered there was a problem with one part of his spine and he had to pay some amount for surgery. The man and the family were so confused and disbelieving because there was nothing wrong with him previously. Why then does he have to spend so much etc. they went to another hospital, this time private specialist. tat one gave him another big name disease from the spine too, of course his fee was bigger. His attempt to go abroad for better healthcare was even more costly. In all these, he was paralysed for real, his neighbours knew, and he himself and family knew. No drama. In the middle of this, brethren have been praying for him. He was then at a healing crusade, and according to him, he received his healing at the crusade. He was spared the agony of living with paralysis for the rest of his life, and the hundreds of thousands he did not have did not need to be worried about. Whatever explanation you may give to that, the man and his family who experienced this answer to prayer will be grateful to God.

3. i have a friend, born a muslim but now a born again christian. This fellow had stroke, with slurred speech, going dumb and clearly dying. As a last resort, after all he could do everywhere else, he was dumped in front of his brother's house. His brother is my friend through whom i knew him. His brother is a christian. The brother found him lying in front of his house dying and neglected. The brother did not offer him any hope of healing, he was preaching to him to give his life to Christ, about eternity etc. The man managed to give his life to Christ. Well, he did not die, so they continued to take care of him, pray for him, read Bible to him etc. In a week, he was healed of ALL his sickness. The man is alive and well, and even richer than his brother as it were. Not dem say, i still saw and spoke with him today. Whatever excuse you might give to that, i would rather have that kind of luck, or placebo or whatever name you call it (instead of you calling it God answering prayer) than believe in nothing, which is far most lazy and does not have any significant advantage.

4. Some few years ago, i suddenly developed eye problem. Dizziness, headache, blurry sight, longsightedness etc. Wetin i do, wetin happen, am i going blind? i began to pray and skabbash It's funny now, though it wasn't funny then oh. i know what i faced and experienced, so don't you tell me story and plausible explanation to rationalise my pain. At any rate, as i was praying, i find my way go see optician. Faith and Medicine are not mutually exclusive, and many need to understand that. After examination, the man said i had latent hyperopia. i've never heard the word nor its meaning before. i asked for the cause, the cure etc. He said it can happen to anybody bla bla bla, there is nothing that can be done to it, i would only use recommended glasses, he said something has spoilt in the eyes(abi finished, i don;t particularly recall), and that is all for a lifetime etc. So, i paid for the glasses, and was told to come back for it in some days time. See me thinking like what went wrong, it cannot happen, so i cannot read again without glasses, even to read for NL, my eyes was heavy and watery etc. As i got home, the kain prayer i fire ehn, no be here. To the glory of God, it was gone the next day. Latent hyperopia went to wherever it came from. i went to collect my designer recommended glasses sha since i have paid for it. i've NEVER had to wear it.

You are skeptics so i hardly expect you to believe my four stories. Even if you did have no choice but to accept that they happened, you would still try to explain them away, anything but God. i experienced it though, and it was God that did it. i've seen other things happen before. i only gave the above four showing that one can still do required part and pray for divine help. God helped me and helped those other three, we all went to the hospital too, but the hospital did not have to help us. Sometimes, healing can come THROUGH the hospital too. i'm already long, not to be too long i will stop here. Expecting your inputs and questions before further talking.


cc: HardMirror, frank317, cloudgoddess, wirinet. You can copy others though i hardly expect them(of your ilk persuasion) to show capability to discuss or reason, from experience.

My major contention is, why hasn't an amputated arm or leg ever been healed? I have never heard or read of it. OP, over to u

I don't think anyone can answer your question, bro. Even if we grant, for the sake of this discussion, that a god exists, we can't put ourselves in his position. Here's what I want you to know: whether one got healed/received help from god or not, you'd still rationalize the scenario and probably end with statements like 'it's the will of god'. And on your talk on god endowing us well enough to have dominion over the earth, which of the following do you think is of more importance to humanity:
a. wasting a good number of pages telling us what animal is unclean, which is not, how to make sacrifices...
b. a single page telling us how to make pain killers or even antibiotics.

But If you grant that such a god doesn't exist, I think you'll able deal with the situation and perhaps come to the conclusion that 'well, I don't know how I got better but hopefully, with time I'll get to know what really happened'.

AnalyticEngine:
My major contention is, why hasn't an amputated arm or leg ever been healed? I have never heard or read of it. OP, over to u

Brrrrrrrrrrrrrr, copy and paste ohhhhhhhhh. i don't know any amputee personally, i cannot confirm that none has ever been healed. That would be an audacious and preposterous fallacy based on presumptuous ignorance. lol. Anyway, nothing so special, is there? Why not stick with what we know and what is available, or are you what i'm suddenly thinking?

Image123:


Brrrrrrrrrrrrrr, copy and paste ohhhhhhhhh. i don't know any amputee personally, i cannot confirm that none has ever been healed. That would be an audacious and preposterous fallacy based on presumptuous ignorance. lol. Anyway, nothing so special, is there? Why not stick with what we know and what is available, or are you what i'm suddenly thinking?

I used to be a strong christian. I have even preached in church, led bible study, gone for evangelism and led prayer meetings etc. on several occasions. I can confidently say I was more than an average christian...but then certain things just did not add up. The only answer to those troubling questions is that religion is a complete hoax

With all the confessions from right and left about the errors and powerlessness of religio, I can boldly say that the kingdom of DOMINO REVERAD the God who created the world with a big bang has been established. Jehovah's time of fooling the people is up already. Let the God who encourages the use of the brain and critical thinking rule forever. Read the DOCTRINE OF THE UFOS and you shall know whether Jehovah is the true God or just one of the gods you have heard of before. Let DOMINO REVERAD reign.

AnalyticEngine:


I used to be a strong christian. I have even preached in church, led bible study, gone for evangelism and led prayer meetings etc. on several occasions. I can confidently say I was more than an average christian...but then certain things just did not add up. The only answer to those troubling questions is that religion is a complete hoax

And the major of those troubles was the amputee concerns?

i've not forgotten the matter of trusting God and giving glory to God etc. I'll explain that, just trying to break things down step by step in case some malunderstandings can be cleared up.

So, in a nutshell, what you're saying is that healing is PHCN, a hit or miss with reason unknown to us but best known to the Deity above (Phcn Officals in this case)

Image123:
i've not forgotten the matter of trusting God and giving glory to God etc. I'll explain that, just trying to break things down step by step in case some malunderstandings can be cleared up.

Those are things you ought to have considered first before making this post. They are part of the very foundation of what you believe. You can't leave them out at the outset only to bring them in whenever or wherever you like. It's a complete package and should be delivered as such.

Image123

You guys should please stop all these long epistles you write to gain sympathizers for your belief.

Afterall the Bible says, "how would they believe without signs"?

Prove yourself to yourself first. Stop all the mere saying.

In case you haven't noticed, the Bible days are gone or never truly happened. It is just a matter of time before you begin to accept this fact.

It is a bitter pill to swallow. Nothing of the Bible era is working right now. It is instructed that sick people should go to the elders of the church to get healing. Can you try that and not look like a fool?

Look around you. Do you know what is expected of the church and christians?
Have you, in fact, done anything extraordinary?

Your faith ends the day you really start being true to yourself.

Pyrrho:
Image123

You guys should please stop all these long epistles you write to gain sympathizers for your belief.

Afterall the Bible says, "how would they believe without signs"?

Prove yourself to yourself first. Stop all the mere saying.

In case you haven't noticed, the Bible days are gone or never truly happened. It is just a matter of time before you begin to accept this fact.

It is a bitter pill to swallow. Nothing of the Bible era is working right now. It is instructed that sick people should go to the elders of the church to get healing. Can you try that and not look like a fool?

Look around you. Do you know what is expected of the church and christians?
Have you, in fact, done anything extraordinary?

Your faith ends the day you really start being true to yourself.

Where have the bible days gone to and how can you justify that it never happened? Even though you might be an atheist (like myself), you don't need to assume this position to prove that the belief is ludicrous. Just don't overstate your point to the level that you cannot defend.

Julianyao:

Where have the bible days gone to and how can you justify that it never happened? Even though you might be an atheist (like myself), you don't need to assume this position to prove that the belief is ludicrous. Just don't overstate your point to the level that you cannot defend.

All I made was a conditional statement. It is an "either..or" statement.

The poster I quoted believes in those claims. All I want is to tickle his curiosity.

I know where his believes hinges on. I'm just being blunt to begin with.

And welcome, I have already noticed you pal.

Your blood dey hot.

Pyrrho:
All I made was a conditional statement. It is an "either..or" statement.

The poster I quoted believes in those claims. All I want is to tickle his curiosity.

I know where his believes hinges on. I'm just being blunt to begin with.

And welcome, I have already noticed you pal.

Your blood dey hot.

Great!
BTW, Thanks.

Image123:

And the major of those troubles was the amputee concerns?

I don't want to derail this thread. Let's just let the sleeping dog lie

Julianyao:
I don't think anyone can answer your question, bro. Even if we grant, for the sake of this discussion, that a god exists, we can't put ourselves in his position. Here's what I want you to know: whether one got healed/received help from god or not, you'd still rationalize the scenario and probably end with statements like 'it's the will of god'. And on your talk on god endowing us well enough to have dominion over the earth, which of the following do you think is of more importance to humanity:
a. wasting a good number of pages telling us what animal is unclean, which is not, how to make sacrifices...
b. a single page telling us how to make pain killers or even antibiotics.

But If you grant that such a god doesn't exist, I think you'll able deal with the situation and perhaps come to the conclusion that 'well, I don't know how I got better but hopefully, with time I'll get to know what really happened'.

a. No knowledge is a waste.
b. The Bible is not a biology or chemistry textbook, it is a spiritual book.

i know how i got better, and how the other three instances i mentioned got better. We got better by divine intervention, shortly after prayer, and clearly after medical science could not help in the way we wanted. i'm in no way against medical science, neither is God. take note.

SirWere:
So, in a nutshell, what you're saying is that healing is PHCN, a hit or miss with reason unknown to us but best known to the Deity above (Phcn Officals in this case)

Very close to what i am saying. Healing is not an exact science, it is not USUALLY demonstrable or exactly repeated. however, it is real. There were many FACTORS that are involved, some are known, the unknown is God's Sovereignty i.e why God would not do something at all, or at the moment, or the exact way we want it done.

Julianyao:

Those are things you ought to have considered first before making this post. They are part of the very foundation of what you believe. You can't leave them out at the outset only to bring them in whenever or wherever you like. It's a complete package and should be delivered as such.

For the purpose of discussion, and in an attempt to make things clearer, They will be added in layers. Let's discuss the first step and understand first i.e we have OUR parts to play in receiving from God, in a summary.

Pyrrho:
Image123

You guys should please stop all these long epistles you write to gain sympathizers for your belief.

Afterall the Bible says, "how would they believe without signs"?

Prove yourself to yourself first. Stop all the mere saying.

In case you haven't noticed, the Bible days are gone or never truly happened. It is just a matter of time before you begin to accept this fact.

It is a bitter pill to swallow. Nothing of the Bible era is working right now. It is instructed that sick people should go to the elders of the church to get healing. Can you try that and not look like a fool?

Look around you. Do you know what is expected of the church and christians?
Have you, in fact, done anything extraordinary?

Your faith ends the day you really start being true to yourself.

i do not need your sympathy, i'm helping those that care to understand, and that are willing to read answers to their questions. Many people believe they are not supposed to ask questions, i wonder where they got that idea. Many do not expect answers to their questions, or discussions for them to understand. They expect the christian answer to ALWAYS be "BELIEVE and THINK NOT". i'm a christian, and i dare say i have a better understanding of the issue being discussed, and i'm willing and ready to discuss if any is ready, which is usually not the case with atheists from experience.
Some believe with signs, some do not. Many are skeptical, crazy and criminal even with signs. The Bible days are here, if you read the OP i gave 4 clear and personal testimonies of miracles and answers to prayers. It is NOT instructed that sick people should go to the elders of the church to get healing.

Image123:


i do not need your sympathy, i'm helping those that care to understand, and that are willing to read answers to their questions. Many people believe they are not supposed to ask questions, i wonder where they got that idea. Many do not expect answers to their questions, or discussions for them to understand. They expect the christian answer to ALWAYS be "BELIEVE and THINK NOT". i'm a christian, and i dare say i have a better understanding of the issue being discussed, and i'm willing and ready to discuss if any is ready, which is usually not the case with atheists from experience.
Some believe with signs, some do not. Many are skeptical, crazy and criminal even with signs. The Bible days are here, if you read the OP i gave 4 clear and personal testimonies of miracles and answers to prayers. It is NOT instructed that sick people should go to the elders of the church to get healing.

Sometimes I think the likes of you, Ebuka and malvis are just on a quest to ridicule christianity.

A simple proposition, you are floating in mere words.

You claim your beliefs have been scrutinized, or you believe they can survive scrutiny?

What are you saying?

Can you present objective evidences to satisfy the my scepticism?

In other words God is like trial and error... since we dont understand him well enough we should just try or go to the hospital. The sad thing is that you have made is clear that we can never understand this said God. His ways are not our ways... hence we ask for help hoping it falls in line with his desire to help out. Are you indirectly saying that there is no guarantee in absolutely depending on God? Is the hospital an alternative when God decides (for reasons best known to him) that our request will not be granted.
I thought God, being what he is, understand how we feel when we lost our loved ones or when we see them suffer. Its either he helps or not, all these probability action despite all his promises and all the praises prayers and acknowledgement does not work.
Again, can you really separate God's healing and hospital healing or chance? because it seems despite your acknowledging that God (due to his ununderstandable ways) sometimes does not answer prayers yet, we tend to give him glory everytime even when he didnt answer (as you have agreed).
Seriously all i see is excuses for an all powerful deity by mere mortals even after you have acknowledged that this all powerful deity cannot not be fully understood. please what are you doing explaining him to us. Can you tell us when exactly he decides not to answer? You have acknowledged thT you cannot fully understand him... on that note, i see humans trying to explain what he knows he cannot not understand... your task is impossible. you know it, yet you are trying... aint you just wasting your time? can u do the impossible? if your god has refused to explain himself, why are u even trying?

So the best way to counter hardmirror's comment was to state other 4 cases where prayers were supposedly answered as against his own 1 scenario baa? Did your well painted scenario in any way nullify his assertion?

If only you knew how many times that phrase 'God works in a mysterious way' and 'the ways of god is different from the ways of man' has been over used ehn.

Meanwhile, b4 I forget, I'm sure you know the 'ask and ye shall receive' portion of the bible very well. Let me highlight this portion for you:

If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

Theres nothing mysterious in that claim up there: that verse/proclamation was made with all certainty.

Pyrrho:
Sometimes I think the likes of you, Ebuka and malvis are just on a quest to ridicule christianity.

A simple proposition, you are floating in mere words.

You claim your beliefs have been scrutinized, or you believe they can survive scrutiny?

What are you saying?

Can you present objective evidences to satisfy the my scepticism?

Again, "Some believe with signs, some do not. Many are skeptical, crazy and criminal even with signs. The Bible days are here, if you read the OP i gave 4 clear and personal testimonies of miracles and answers to prayers. It is NOT instructed that sick people should go to the elders of the church to get healing." Good to see that you did not refute this.
Don't confuse yourself for nothing, i have not said any of the words in italics, do you see visions as an atheist? Can you discuss intelligently about your skepticism?

Image123:


Again, "Some believe with signs, some do not. Many are skeptical, crazy and criminal even with signs. The Bible days are here, if you read the OP i gave 4 clear and personal testimonies of miracles and answers to prayers. It is NOT instructed that sick people should go to the elders of the church to get healing." Good to see that you did not refute this.
Don't confuse yourself for nothing, i have not said any of the words in italics, do you see visions as an atheist? Can you discuss intelligently about your skepticism?

You've said nothing.

Even in your OP.

You and Ebuka have a way of eluding your own point.

In simple terms please; Why does God not heal like he promised?

Pyrrho:
You've said nothing.

Even in your OP.

You and Ebuka have a way of eluding your own point.

In simple terms please; Why does God not heal like he promised?

simple... long essay means going round and round to explain the impossible.

Gods ways are higher than ours... they even use the distance from heaven(wherever that is) to earth to say how difficult it is to think like him. Yet he expects us not to use our human brain to wonder why he does not keep his promises. He doesnt want us to be sad when he does not answer prayers and our loved ones die or suffer.
The God seems more interested in being God than just helping poor humans, even infants. He just wants us to love him even when his ways are not near our ways, we should just accept his bullshiit and figure out how to survive when his ego cannot bring him to step out and empathize with humans.
Now while he is chilling and drinking heavenly champaigne all we have is Image123, a mere mortal trying to explain out the so called almighty and all powerful.

frank317:
In other words God is like trial and error... since we dont understand him well enough we should just try or go to the hospital.

In other words, healing is like trial and error in a sense. God is not healing, and healing is not God. And it is a very good trial and error, given the results achieved through time and the many testimonies that continue to abound. Divine healing and going to the hospital are not mutually exclusive, they are symbiotic if i may so say. You can get medical help and still pray. This position that christians should not(cannot or must not) seek medical help is unfounded, yet many atheists think this way.

The sad thing is that you have made is clear that we can never understand this said God. His ways are not our ways... hence we ask for help hoping it falls in line with his desire to help out. Are you indirectly saying that there is no guarantee in absolutely depending on God? Is the hospital an alternative when God decides (for reasons best known to him) that our request will not be granted.

Good to see feedback that i am making some things clear. It is not a sad thing, it is there in the Bible both in words and in scriptural experience. We cannot fully understand God. We lack the capacity. It is never hopeless though, we can still understand Him to some extent. Your trained pet dog cannot fully understand you, but it still knows and understands you better than other dogs. See the Bible passages clearly below.

Isa 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
2Pe 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever. Amen.
Eph 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
Col 1:10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;
1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

There is no guarantee OF HEALING in absolutely depending on God, but there is a good chance depending on a combination of factors on our part. There is no guarantee of healing in medical science too, people die EVERY DAY in hospitals. We don't however say that because there is no guarantee, all healing is fake or nonexistent. And of course, that does not in anyway deny the existence of God. i'll have to quote the scriptures especially to help christian readers who may think otherwise, and for those who think i am making up excuses. i have shown four clear and personal testimonies of divine healing. It is not a case of, oh God does not work, lemme make up an excuse for why. It is a case of study, experience and a combination of other factors.

Mar 9:28 And when he was come into the house, his disciples asked him privately, Why could not we cast him out?
The passage in reference here, there was healing by Jesus, fine. But His disciples could not heal the person despite depending on God and praying/asking God.

1Ti 5:23 Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.
Timothy was a believer, and so was Paul the APOSTLE. Paul had prayed for Timothy in faith, depended on God etc. Yet Timothy had OFTEN infirmities. he was advised of Paul to use a little wine as a sort of medicine for his health. Do we conclude that all Paul's previous healings were fake, or he was deluded, or it has expired? Certainly not. Those who understand the ways of God know better.

2Ti 4:20 Erastus abode at Corinth: but Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick.
Paul the apostle has raised the dead and sent out handkerchiefs healing the sick, and wrought special miracles. but he had to leave Trophimus at Miletum sick. this is in the Bible, before you were born. It is nothing really new. Sometimes, things do not simply go the way we want/plan. It is only childish to throw tantrums or disbelief God, especially after all one has experienced before and still experience after. i hope you clearly and biblically see my point now? i do not make it up, it is there in every Bible for those who care to read. The hospital is ALWAYS an alternative, no one hindered you from going to the hospital. you can go to the hospital without losing faith in God. i have, and those four testimonies above clearly show that divine healing can be obtained even when we go to the hospital.

I thought God, being what he is, understand how we feel when we lost our loved ones or when we see them suffer. Its either he helps or not, all these probability action despite all his promises and all the praises prayers and acknowledgement does not work.
Again, can you really separate God's healing and hospital healing or chance? because it seems despite your acknowledging that God (due to his ununderstandable ways) sometimes does not answer prayers yet, we tend to give him glory everytime even when he didnt answer (as you have agreed).

God created and understands us better than we can ever do. Jesus Christ had a friend in the Bible called Lazarus. He was sick, at least you would think that God's friend should not be sick. yeah right. Lazarus was sick, Jesus knew, He was even sent for, yet the man died sick. There is the Sovereign mysterious factor. However, this factor is real and seen in the Scripture. It is not a new shocking discovery that should daunt our faith.
The same person can have a sickness different times, and have healing in different ways. Healing is not an exact science, that however does not make it unreal or God unreal. The same believer can pray for someone today and he/she is healed, can pray for another person for the same sickness same day, and no healing. It is not necessarily repeatable. It does not mean that the other healing did not happen, or the person was lucky. Well, i like that kind of luck, and will rather have it a thousand times over atheism. A kind of luck that takes away sickle cell, leprosy, athritis, HIV, madness, shorter legs, blindness, cataract, etc, that kind of luck is good luck and should be encouraged. These are things prayer does, prayer still changes the night to day as it were.
God can part the sea using a rod of moses, or a garment of Elijah, or nothing from Joshua. He is not limited. Healing can come through God directly, or through water, or fruits, or medicine. God has made it that accessible. Aren't you glad that God does not monopolise healing to only crusade ground? The Pharisees felt there should be no healing on sabbath days. You seem to feel that for God to exist, there should be only one path of healing. Why do you have such an idea?

Seriously all i see is excuses for an all powerful deity by mere mortals even after you have acknowledged that this all powerful deity cannot not be fully understood. please what are you doing explaining him to us. Can you tell us when exactly he decides not to answer? You have acknowledged thT you cannot fully understand him... on that note, i see humans trying to explain what he knows he cannot not understand... your task is impossible. you know it, yet you are trying... aint you just wasting your time? can u do the impossible? if your god has refused to explain himself, why are u even trying?

People see what they choose to see really. All i have said are in the Bible, not personal knowledge alone. It would help you to understand God better, instead of the lazy throwing in of the towel that is the common stance. Does of God who know God know that He is a Healer and we have experienced His healing. We also know that He doesn't heal every time. Life is not exactitude and we are not in utopia. God did not promise utopia either. He said in the world, we will have tribulations. His apostles were in hungers often, in peril of robbers, in weariness and painfulness, cold and unclothedness. yet this were the biggest believers seemingly. They never doubted the existence of God, they also experienced the miraculous.
Your hunger does not come exactly the same way, neither does your anger. Does this mean that your anger is not real? Where do you get the idea that God must be robotic to exist? Even your pain and joy have varying degrees even when subjected to the same conditions. They are not science, where if you mix hydrogen and chloride, you must get a particular solution etc. A thought that brings you strong laughter today, may not bring the same thing tomorrow, or even to another person. That is the reality of life.

Pyrrho:
You've said nothing.

Even in your OP.

You and Ebuka have a way of eluding your own point.

In simple terms please; Why does God not heal like he promised?

Lol, i never expected it to be easy. Life itself is a mystery. God does not heal like He promised because we do not understand Him, do you understand my short simple terms now? i guess not.

simplex2:
So the best way to counter hardmirror's comment was to state other 4 cases where prayers were supposedly answered as against his own 1 scenario baa? Did your well painted scenario in any way nullify his assertion?

If only you knew how many times that phrase 'God works in a mysterious way' and 'the ways of god is different from the ways of man' has been over used ehn.

Meanwhile, b4 I forget, I'm sure you know the 'ask and ye shall receive' portion of the bible very well. Let me highlight this portion for you:

If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

Theres nothing mysterious in that claim up there: that verse/proclamation was made with all certainty.

i am not countering his arguments, where is he BTW? i am explaining things in a perspective i hope some may better understand. My 4 instances were not stated to nullify his assertions. they were given to illustrate the FACT that divine healing or prayer can still be done by believers while they seek medical care. The Bible does not tell us not to seek medical care, i have given scriptures showing that.
'God works in a mysterious way' and 'the ways of God is different from the ways of man' are FACTS clearly stated in th Bible. They are in the terms and conditions and they APPLY. you don't just pull one verse and be running up and down like an headless chicken. Read the terms and conditions of the contract carefully.

Image123:


Lol, i never expected it to be easy. Life itself is a mystery. God does not heal like He promised because we do not understand Him, do you understand my short simple terms now? i guess not.

I like your simplified version.

And you understand him? How did you know this if "we do not understand him"?

I assume you are not inclusive in the "we" part of your above comments.

Because he doesn't want humanists to lose their calling.

Pyrrho:
I like your simplified version.

And you understand him? How did you know this if "we do not understand him"?

I assume you are not inclusive in the "we" part of your above comments.

Greeeeeeat, that's like eureka or something. Have you read what i wrote at all or you just skimmed through? Don't be lazy man,go back and read.

Image123:


Greeeeeeat, that's like eureka or something. Have you read what i wrote at all or you just skimmed through? Don't be lazy man,go back and read.

Can you just humour me please?

I read your post and it didn't make sense.

I'm trying to get simpler explanations, can you do that?

How did you get to know that we do not understand God?