gj22:


It happens a lot in movies and is more in line with reality. Sometimes, you get saved by men and have luck while fighting

That was some hell of luck. More like plot armour.

UjSizzle:

Thank you, Luxanne. I don't even understand why they're hating on Sansa. Her sending for the Tully army was an act of desperation, and even then, there was no certainty that Little Finger would deliver.

Yes, there was no certainty, but she could have AT LEAST told Jon about it. Consider this: Jon Snow chose to side with his former wildling enemies when a greater threat came; do you think he wouldn't have accepted LF if it could give him a chance to beat the Mad Dog that has his brother? Of course we viewers already knew Rickon was a goner, but still...

My own view is that Sansa is compromised, and its all thanks to LF. Starks are known for being honest and upfront; these are qualities Sansa will never recover again.

As Jon Snow himself, I'm just disappointed with him... disappointed but not surprised.

gj22:


Again, they are not mutually exclusive. He would have won if not for Sansa. He did show his strength on the battle field. He would have won if not for sansa. As you can see, he had a back up plan to wait them out in winterfell but Jon snow had Wun-Wun.

Ramsay is a smart guy and a good tactician. Even roose knew this.

A good tactician would have known if an army was approaching him, incase they were hidden. You should always have outriders to not let your guard down. Ramsey was killing his own men as well as Jon's.

gj22:


I don't think you know the difference between equality and equity. It's equality that they want. Give them equal opportunities and chances as you give men. Maybe you should read up on actual feminism because it's beyond the scope of this thread. Also, you can't use a work of fiction to judge if feminism is pointless.

I only said I believe in equity, am not interested in what they want. There's a difference. Let's agree to disagree. You're right the argument ain't for this thread.

Unfathomable:



...some of the men of the nights watch were him, and they were the first set with horses. phew!! this thread. The Wildlings and the Archers who I think are the Mormonts came later

Dude stop watching the back of your television.

gj22:


Those were vale army weren't they?

Yeah, Vale army.

gj22:


They are not mutually exclusive. You can be a tactician and still be a sadist. Didn't you see how he made Jon do exactly what he wanted? He is a good tactician.

Remember how he won the war against Stannis before it even began? How he used reek to gain his father's trust?

I don't agree that Ramsay was a good tactician - slaughtering his men along with Jon Snow's was certainly not the best TACTICAL thing to do, remember he had the strength of numbers, plus a solid castle behind him. But I must admit that he holds the ace when it comes to "reading" people. He knew EXACTLY where to push Jon Snow in order to get him to attack first.

gj22:




You don't get it.

A tactician is someone who is good at making plans in order to achieve particular goals.

Ramsey did exactly this.

He was just caught offguard by the vale
army. For all we know, Jon snow cheated.

Yes, he killed a lot of his men, the thing is, he wanted that to happen.

Why I will not call Ramsay a tactician is simple, of all the battles he fought he always had the clear advantage, the odds will favor 6thousand men over 2 thousand plus any time any day. Ramsay had the clear advantage and yet he slaughtered almost half of his men to get to Jons 2thousand plus. That's not good tactics.

luxanne:


Or maybe not. The white walkers are already doing that, we just need more of their scenes.

How many seasons are we looking at in GOT, any idea?

2 more after this I think.

13 episodes each.

If it makes more money they may stretch it to three

gj22:




You don't get it.

A tactician is someone who is good at making plans in order to achieve particular goals.

Ramsey did exactly this.

He was just caught offguard by the vale army. For all we know, Jon snow cheated.

Yes, he killed a lot of his men, the thing is, he wanted that to happen.

I definitely agree with this .

Ramsey delivered a master class in military strategy there.

Used his calvary to pin down Jon's calvary, so that his archers could wipe them out from range.

Then sent in his phalanx troops to spear the army infantry to death.

Ramsay actually won his battle against the starks...and if he wasn't actually destined to die by the writers, could have easily sat back in his castle and waited out the vale siege.

Instead we got the dubious situation where a giant who had more shafts in him than a prostitute, muster enough strength to smash up the gate and let Jon in.

Then ofcourse, Ramsay chose to waste a clean shot on a practically dead giant, when Jon was open for the kill.

Finally, Ramsay had to try and use a bow and arrow in close quarters combat, ignoring the sword hanging at his side begging for action.

Like MaziOmenuko said, those last actions didn't fit the MO of the Lord Bolton that we know.

So yeah, if not that the writers had decided to make Ramsay a faceless man, he would have gotten away with every last action.

kenturkish:

Why I will not call Ramsay a tactician is simple, of all the battles he fought he always had the clear advantage, the odds will favor 6thousand men over 2 thousand plus any time any day. Ramsay had the clear advantage and yet he slaughtered almost half of his men to get to Jons 2thousand plus. That's not good tactics.

that's a very good tactics o. very devious! Captain Flint did the same but in limited capacity in Black sails season 3 finale. go and read "acts of war". a good war tactician or general is one who is willing to do the outrageous and the unexpected. in war there is no fair play, no cheat.

during world war 2, the Japs nearly crippled the united state's navy by sacrificing a lot of their air force. if not for the tie breaking atomic bomb, japs could have possibly invaded the west coast of the united states.

Nihilist:


I definitely agree with this .

Ramsey delivered a master class in military strategy there.

Used his calvary to pin down Jon's calvary, so that his archers could wipe them out from range.

Then sent in his phalanx troops to spear the army infantry to death.

Ramsay actually won his battle against the starks...and if he wasn't actually destined to die by the writers, could have easily sat back in his castle and waited out the vale siege.

He would have won on numbers not because of being a tactician. You don't send cavalry against cavalry(a living horse will not charge) and then rain archers on them. Pikemen/Spearmen are best against cavalry and cavalry against infantry. They weren't even heavy cavalry.Those pikemen wouldn't have been able to surround them in a real scenario, as battles are fought in units, you dont all charge in at once, that's slaughter. Davos and the reserves could have stayed put, to hit them at their flanks. It seemed to me in this battle, regardless of the Rickon thing, that they always wanted Jon to be three steps behind Ramsey, trying to flesh out the whole 'You know nothing Jon Snow' when all his mistakes were just simply bad writing.

luxanne:


Hehe

You people have come again, so the wun wun name was gotten from where na, open the door?

Don't mind me, just kidding

Haha can't wait for the season finale

Bratking:


that's a very good tactics o. very devious! Captain Flint did the same but in limited capacity in Black sails season 3 finale. go and read "acts of war". a good war tactician or general is one who is willing to do the outrageous and the unexpected. in war there is no fair play, no cheat.

during world war 2, the Japs nearly crippled the united state's navy by sacrificing a lot of their air force. if not for the tie breaking atomic bomb, japs could have possibly invaded the west coast of the united states.

This is probably derailing, but get this: The Japs didn't have strength of numbers; Ramsay did. The Japs didn't have a solid fortress to relax behind and wait out the winter in comfort; Ramsay did. The Japs weren't better provisioned and equipped; Ramsay was. As for invading the West Coast of the U.S... that's just laughable. I'll rather suggest we leave out history and just keep to GoT.

shegsrules:


Haha can't wait for the season finale

One babe on Twitter put it like this: Without Wun Wun, the Starks wouldn't have won won.

Gbola5:



He would have won on numbers not because of being a tactician. You don't send cavalry against cavalry(a living horse will not charge) and then rain archers on them. Pikemen/Spearmen are best against cavalry and cavalry against infantry. They weren't even heavy cavalry.Those pikemen wouldn't have been able to surround them in a real scenario, as battles are fought in units, you dont all charge in at once, that's slaughter. Davos and the reserves could have stayed put, to hit them at their flanks. It seemed to me in this battle, regardless of the Rickon thing, that they always wanted Jon to be three steps behind Ramsey, trying to flesh out the whole 'You know nothing Jon Snow' when all his mistakes were just simply bad writing.

I'm not exactly sure what to make of the statement 'a living horse will not charge'

Anyway, my analysis if the battle is this:

1. Both sides had relatively few calvary. When the camera zoomed over Ramsays army, it was obvious that his army was almost entirely composed of infantry units. Ditto Jon's army composed almost entirely of wildlings on feet.

2. Jon Snow had told that wildling dude that his troops were digging trenches on their side of the battle field to prevent them from getting flanked. Davos even stressed the importance of letting the boltons charge first.
So it was pretty clear that the original Stark play was to take up a defensive position behind the trenches , let the Bolton Calvary charge and die in the trenches, pin down their infantry with the wildlings, and then use their calvary to attack the flanks.

3. Given that the stark army were digging said trenches literally just outside Winterfell, it's not inconceivable that the Boltons saw all the construction work and consequently through the gameplan, and quickly devised a way to try and lure the starks out from their defensive positions

So...

4. They setup like they're ready to charge. Put the horses in front, phalanx behind, and send out Rickon as bait...and it works. If they had their Spearmen at thr front lines, it would telegraph their move to the Starkes, who would most certainly think twice about charging their horses into a wall of spears

5. The Bolton calvary engage the Stark calvary. Bolton Archers then rain down arrows on them to make sure they die quick..

6. With the Stark calvary gone, they lose the abilty to perform flanking maneuvers. Bolton infantry then use their superior numbers to do the very thing that Jon olodo was afraid of, and encompass them on everyside, and pierce them to death.

7. While this is going on, Bolton Archers fall back.

The only deliberate loss to the Bolton army was the calvary which were the smallest unit anyway. Ramsay was still confident that he had more than enough men to hold the castle against the Vale army from inside Winterfell , which in truth he did...

Its just that the writing gods had decided that he had to die, so die he did...though he lives on in my heart.

What is dread may never die.

kay9:


This is probably derailing, but get this: The Japs didn't have strength of numbers; Ramsay did. The Japs didn't have a solid fortress to relax behind and wait out the winter in comfort; Ramsay did. The Japs weren't better provisioned and equipped; Ramsay was. As for invading the West Coast of the U.S... that's just laughable. I'll rather suggest we leave out history and just keep to GoT.

the point I was trying to pass across is that japs were tactically superior. they were willing to do the unexpected, the outrageous even tho they don't have a lot of men and weapons. they target american warships with their suicide flyers(kamikaze) and were successful on many occasions.

in ramsey's case, having many men gave him a lot of options and a severe advantage. if he chose to kill half of his men to actualize his objectives, then so be it. there are no rules in war.

siempere:
Graviton....u are wicked simple..!!!...picture of a cudgel

armadeo:



Your welcome bro. If you've read or wang to read the books visit the other thread. It made me read the books again. Subtle things you obviously missed the first time.

Ps in this episode during the battle Jon ani holds an ally and says " it worked " the ally was immediately shot down with an arrow.

The question is what worked?


Watch again.



All in all EPIC!!!!!!!!!!!!.

I asked myself the same question. Maybe we'll get our answer in subsequent episodes

ilynem:

When you can think of a more gruesome way to kill someone even better than Ramsey does, you need a therapist.

I was just being honest.

gj22:




You don't get it.

A tactician is someone who is good at making plans in order to achieve particular goals.

Ramsey did exactly this.

He was just caught offguard by the vale army. For all we know, Jon snow cheated.

Yes, he killed a lot of his men, the thing is, he wanted that to happen.

Ramsey Bolton had abt 6000 men nd more Horses..... John snow had abt 3000 men nd lesser horses...... All is fair in love nd war

Nihilist:

I'm not exactly sure what to make of the statement 'a living horse will not charge'

Anyway, my analysis if the battle is this:

1. Both sides had relatively few calvary. When the camera zoomed over Ramsays army, it was obvious that his army was almost entirely composed of infantry units. Ditto Jon's army composed almost entirely of wildlings on feet.

2. Jon Snow had told that wildling dude that his troops were digging trenches on their side of the battle field to prevent them from getting flanked. Davos even stressed the importance of letting the boltons charge first.
So it was pretty clear that the original Stark play was to take up a defensive position behind the trenches , let the Bolton Calvary charge and die in the trenches, pin down their infantry with the wildlings, and then use their calvary to attack the flanks.

3. Given that the stark army were digging said trenches literally just outside Winterfell, it's not inconceivable that the Boltons saw all the construction work and consequently through the gameplan, and quickly devised a way to try and lure the starks out from their defensive positions

So...

4. They setup like they're ready to charge. Put the horses in front, phalanx behind, and send out Rickon as bait...and it works. If they had their Spearmen at thr front lines, it would telegraph their move to the Starkes, who would most certainly think twice about charging their horses into a wall of spears

5. The Bolton calvary engage the Stark calvary. Bolton Archers then rain down arrows on them to make sure they die quick..

6. With the Stark calvary gone, they lose the abilty to perform flanking maneuvers. Bolton infantry then use their superior numbers to do the very thing that Jon olodo was afraid of, and encompass them on everyside, and pierce them to death.

7. While this is going on, Bolton Archers fall back.

The only deliberate loss to the Bolton army was the calvary which were the smallest unit anyway. Ramsay was still confident that he had more than enough men to hold the castle against the Vale army from inside Winterfell , which in truth he did...

Its just that the writing gods had decided that he had to die, so die he did...though he lives on in my heart.

What is dread may never die.

Jon's battle plans never fleshed out There were no trenches in that scene. If we can agree that the Bolton's saw said trenches, meaning they had eyes on the outside, why didn't they know of the Vale Army somewhere off. They were at Moat Cailin, word would have gotten out of an army at Moat Cailin.

Jon's forces had the forest at their backs, they could have used that to an advantage. It was the same with the Stannis battle, the two forces just charged at each other. Armies had battle units which allowed them to respond to battle conditions. You can agreee with me that that was a slaughter After having a battle plan they just discard it. Ramsay sends his own cavalry of about equal forces and then sends arrows to take them out because, saddistic much ? He could have had his infantry formation on the frontlines to guard aginst the unprotected charging Stark cavalry, and then have his archers to the rear to strike them down, his other infantry could then melee with the rest of the Stark forces, he would save a deal lot of his men, atleast enough to counter the Arryn forces while they secured the castle. A good tactician would have at the back of his mind that an enemy force may be hidden in sight, and therefore would not risk his men. But they had to have that Hollywood save with the Knights of the Vale, because you know, convenient armies are convenient~ Reminds you of Helmsdeep, atleast they had the castle, they were just outnumbered. 3/10 for medeival battle.

Gbola5:


Jon's battle plans never fleshed out There were no trenches in that scene. If we can agree that the Bolton's saw said trenches, meaning they had eyes on the outside, why didn't they know of the Vale Army somewhere off. They were at Moat Cailin, word would have gotten out of an army at Moat Cailin.

Jon's forces had the forest at their backs, they could have used that to an advantage. It was the same with the Stannis battle, the two forces just charged at each other. Armies had battle units which allowed them to respond to battle conditions. You can agreee with me that that was a slaughter After having a battle plan they just discard it. Ramsay sends his own cavalry of about equal forces and then sends arrows to take them out because, saddistic much ? He could have had his infantry formation on the frontlines to guard aginst the unprotected charging Stark cavalry, and then have his archers to the rear to strike them down, his other infantry could then melee with the rest of the Stark forces, he would save a deal lot of his men, atleast enough to counter the Arryn forces while they secured the castle. A good tactician would have at the back of his mind that an enemy force may be hidden in sight, and therefore would not risk his men. But they had to have that Hollywood save with the Knights of the Vale, because you know, convenient armies are convenient~ Reminds you of Helmsdeep, atleast they had the castle, they were just outnumbered. 3/10 for medeival battle.

Guy i just dislike d fact u know so much about GOT
Cant u just b normal

armadeo:


2 more after this I think.

13 episodes each.

If it makes more money they may stretch it to three

I read two more after this. One 8 and another 7.

UjSizzle:

I read two more after this. One 8 and another 7.

Correct

No for some appetizers

Did you know?

And our favourite bad guy

Gbola5:


Jon's battle plans never fleshed out There were no trenches in that scene. If we can agree that the Bolton's saw said trenches, meaning they had eyes on the outside, why didn't they know of the Vale Army somewhere off. They were at Moat Cailin, word would have gotten out of an army at Moat Cailin.

Jon's forces had the forest at their backs, they could have used that to an advantage. It was the same with the Stannis battle, the two forces just charged at each other. Armies had battle units which allowed them to respond to battle conditions. You can agreee with me that that was a slaughter After having a battle plan they just discard it. Ramsay sends his own cavalry of about equal forces and then sends arrows to take them out because, saddistic much ? He could have had his infantry formation on the frontlines to guard aginst the unprotected charging Stark cavalry, and then have his archers to the rear to strike them down, his other infantry could then melee with the rest of the Stark forces, he would save a deal lot of his men, atleast enough to counter the Arryn forces while they secured the castle. A good tactician would have at the back of his mind that an enemy force may be hidden in sight, and therefore would not risk his men. But they had to have that Hollywood save with yhe Knights of the Vale~ Reminds you of Helmsdeep, atleast they had the castle, they were just outnumbered. 3/10 for medeival battle.

Whether or not we saw the trenches are irrelevant. Jon said the night before that the trenches were being dug, so we know that they are there.

The trenches were supposed to be used as part of a tactic that was jettisoned as a result of Jons stupidity, so showing the trenches would have been superfluous to the battle scenes anyway.

Given the proximity of the battlefield to the castle, it's almost inconceivable that someone looking outside the window won't have seen a couple thousand men furiously digging trenches and planting stakes in the distance...hence the Bolton's theatrical and successful attempt to lure the Starks away from their defensive positions

Looking at that Battle in isolation, the Boltons were strategically and militarily the superior force, and were rightly in the ascendancy until....

The writers intervened.

All the inconsistencies you mentioned about the Knights of the Vale have nothing to do with Ramsay's lack of tactical acumen.

How can Ramsay see Vale men when even the Starks don't know that they are coming?

Ramsay who saw Jon Snow's men coming, went to meet them out in the field, and was accurately able to guess how many men they had will not see the Vale men coming because writers.

Ramsay who was confident that the castle could not be breached(as predicted by Jon) suddenly had his men decimated inside the castle by relatively few men because writers.

Ramsay who had the opportunity to shoot Jon dead one time, decided instead to waste the opportunity on a dead giant because writers.

Ramsay who has shown himself to be a more than capable close quarters fighter on several occasions would just go down to a few punches because writers

Ramsay who was so deceptively clever that he infiltrated his own forces to con theon, a man who was so astute that he outmanoeuvred his own dad to rise from bastard to warden of the north, all of sudden decides that the best way to kill a man hidden behind a big shield is to keep shooting at the shield.

The writers had decided that Ramsay had to die...so the Vale men had to show up undetected, and Ramsay had to suddenly start making uncharacteristic decisions.

That battle was 10/10 for Ramsay, but the writers just would not let him live

Glad Ramsey wasn't given Jon's role

Gbola5:



That was some hell of luck. More like plot armour.

I don't think you know what plot armour is. That's how battles are fought and won. You hear soldiers say stuff like "he saved my life on the battle field" . Do they have plot Armour too or is there a real life equivalent of plot Armour?
Also, when he did the same thing to save some of the soldiers, do those soldiers have plot Armour too?

Gbola5:


A good tactician would have known if an army was approaching him, incase they were hidden. You should always have outriders to not let your guard down. Ramsey was killing his own men as well as Jon's.

He didn't care that he was killing his own men, that's what he wanted. The battle panned out exactly the way he wanted until the vale army arrived.

He knew exactly what Jon will do and how to counteract him. Everything went exactly according to how he wanted it. That is the definition of a good tactician.