kay9:


I don't agree that Ramsay was a good tactician - slaughtering his men along with Jon Snow's was certainly not the best TACTICAL thing to do, remember he had the strength of numbers, plus a solid castle behind him. But I must admit that he holds the ace when it comes to "reading" people. He knew EXACTLY where to push Jon Snow in order to get him to attack first.

He doesn't care about his men. Remember he is a sadist. All he wanted was to win the war.

In chess, don't people sacrifice the pawns or whatever to win the game? That's exactly what he did.

kenturkish:

Why I will not call Ramsay a tactician is simple, of all the battles he fought he always had the clear advantage, the odds will favor 6thousand men over 2 thousand plus any time any day. Ramsay had the clear advantage and yet he slaughtered almost half of his men to get to Jons 2thousand plus. That's not good tactics.

The battle went exactly according to his plan (apart fork the vale army). That is the definition of a good tactician.

Now, whether his plan was stupid is a different argument.

absky5:
The 21 blows that Jon landed ramsey is not enough for me at all........*don't ask me how I know it's 21 because I counted it*

you really wanted that guy to suffer. I wish he did not die in that episode, they should have cooked his limbs for him to eat first.

Gbola5:



He would have won on numbers not because of being a tactician. You don't send cavalry against cavalry(a living horse will not charge) and then rain archers on them. Pikemen/Spearmen are best against cavalry and cavalry against infantry. They weren't even heavy cavalry.Those pikemen wouldn't have been able to surround them in a real scenario, as battles are fought in units, you dont all charge in at once, that's slaughter. Davos and the reserves could have stayed put, to hit them at their flanks. It seemed to me in this battle, regardless of the Rickon thing, that they always wanted Jon to be three steps behind Ramsey, trying to flesh out the whole 'You know nothing Jon Snow' when all his mistakes were just simply bad writing.

Haha. How i hate seeing this bad writing of a thing. Tell me how many wars you have fought?

The battle was fought in units.

First, Ramsey drew Jon snow out and when he was in the middle of the battle field, he sent his calvary after him. This forced jon snow 's forces to send their calvary too. Now, being in the middle of the park and within reach of Ramsay's archers, Ramsey slaughtered them by firing arrows (slaughtering his own men in the process but he didn't care). Meanwhile, Jon snow 's archers couldn't fire because they might end up killing the little men they have and instead, they attacked on foot. Ramsey surrounded what was left of the army and was about winning the war when the vale army appeared.

How wouldn't have been able to surround what was left of Jon snow 's army? When all the units have been depleted, what other unit do you want snow to use? Have you forgotten that this was not their original plan that it was Ramsey's genius that made th abandon their plan?

kay9:


One babe on Twitter put it like this: Without Wun Wun, the Starks wouldn't have won won.

Isn't that why they have him in the first place?

kay9:


This is probably derailing, but get this: The Japs didn't have strength of numbers; Ramsay did. The Japs didn't have a solid fortress to relax behind and wait out the winter in comfort; Ramsay did. The Japs weren't better provisioned and equipped; Ramsay was. As for invading the West Coast of the U.S... that's just laughable. I'll rather suggest we leave out history and just keep to GoT.

GoT.[/quote]

A good tactician is someone that makes something go according to his plan. Whether the plan is a good plan is irrelevant.

He made Jon snow do exactly what he wanted, that's what made him a good tactician. Now, whether what he wanted was right is irrelevant.

gj22:


A lot of time passed between when he said so and when she said it to him.

Is it unwise to think that one of davos or Jon mentioned it to her at some point?

Must everything be shown on screen?

hunn who would tell r. She didnot even talked to any of dem always condescending their opnions to snow. It's was a mistake on thieor part. N it's sometihning called goffy a term used by film critics for stuffs like these

Gbola5:


Jon's battle plans never fleshed out There were no trenches in that scene. If we can agree that the Bolton's saw said trenches, meaning they had eyes on the outside, why didn't they know of the Vale Army somewhere off. They were at Moat Cailin, word would have gotten out of an army at Moat Cailin.

Jon's forces had the forest at their backs, they could have used that to an advantage. It was the same with the Stannis battle, the two forces just charged at each other. Armies had battle units which allowed them to respond to battle conditions. You can agreee with me that that was a slaughter After having a battle plan they just discard it. Ramsay sends his own cavalry of about equal forces and then sends arrows to take them out because, saddistic much ? He could have had his infantry formation on the frontlines to guard aginst the unprotected charging Stark cavalry, and then have his archers to the rear to strike them down, his other infantry could then melee with the rest of the Stark forces, he would save a deal lot of his men, atleast enough to counter the Arryn forces while they secured the castle. A good tactician would have at the back of his mind that an enemy force may be hidden in sight, and therefore would not risk his men. But they had to have that Hollywood save with the Knights of the Vale, because you know, convenient armies are convenient~ Reminds you of Helmsdeep, atleast they had the castle, they were just outnumbered. 3/10 for medeival battle.

Nothing went according to Jon snow 's plan because of his initial run to save Rickon. He would have died had davos not sent the cavalry after him. Ramsey's only mistake was not planning for a surprise army .
Look up the definition of tactician

kay9:


This is probably derailing, but get this: The Japs didn't have strength of numbers; Ramsay did. The Japs didn't have a solid fortress to relax behind and wait out the winter in comfort; Ramsay did. The Japs weren't better provisioned and equipped; Ramsay was. As for invading the West Coast of the U.S... that's just laughable. I'll rather suggest we leave out history and just keep to GoT.

GoT.[/quote]

A good tactician is someone that makes something go according to his plan. Whether the plan is a good plan is irrelevant.

He made Jon snow do exactly what he wanted, that's what made him a good tactician. Now, whether what he wanted was right is irrelevant.

armadeo:


You wicked pass.

You went and looked for it.

Lol. My thoughts exactly

Nihilist:


Whether or not we saw the trenches are irrelevant. Jon said the night before that the trenches were being dug, so we know that they are there.

The trenches were supposed to be used as part of a tactic that was jettisoned as a result of Jons stupidity, so showing the trenches would have been superfluous to the battle scenes anyway.

Given the proximity of the battlefield to the castle, it's almost inconceivable that someone looking outside the window won't have seen a couple thousand men furiously digging trenches and planting stakes in the distance...hence the Bolton's theatrical and successful attempt to lure the Starks away from their defensive positions

Looking at that Battle in isolation, the Boltons were strategically and militarily the superior force, and were rightly in the ascendancy until....

The writers intervened.

All the inconsistencies you mentioned about the Knights of the Vale have nothing to do with Ramsay's lack of tactical acumen.

How can Ramsay see Vale men when even the Starks don't know that they are coming?

Ramsay who saw Jon Snow's men coming, went to meet them out in the field, and was accurately able to guess how many men they had will not see the Vale men coming because writers.

Thank you for this.

UjSizzle:
Did you know?

Pls dat 10hour part is an hoax
10hour ko
2munite ni

Oh Lord not another argument. Please someone should stop this panel discussion on medieval battle expertise.

gj22:


Thank you for this.

In the context of the series, Ramsay is good @ what he does probably the best. But in really being a good battle commander and tactician it's a fail for me, going into a battle where you outnumber your opponents almost 3 to 1 and you end up killing more of your men than the said opponents is just sadistic. Even without wun wun, winterfell, Would still be breached because ramsay just didn't have the numbers to protect the castle against a siege. He played all his cards once and he paid dearly for it.

Bilany:
Oh Lord not another argument. Please someone should stop this panel discussion on medieval battle expertise.

That's the fun of this thread in my humble opinion, respectfully stating your case and going back and forth. I enjoy reading the arguments especially with people who know their onions.

Season finale Sunday night... can't wait....
Hope Cersei burns kings landing with the wild fire.

I think she will kill tommen.

Gbola5:


Just the first set of people to come to Westeros, First Men> Andals> Rhoynar. I wouldn't say extinct, but as their blood still flows in the present era. Some houses are purely First Men, and some purely Andal, no house is purely Rhoynar.

After centuries of inter-marrying, no one is purely anything anymore.

obstead200:

I agree. it appears most of the north are firstmen and andals. Remember the dothraki always called Jorah mormont "Jorah the andal"

The Dothraki refer to everyone across the Narrow Sea as Andals. House Mormont is a Northern house and hence are descendants of the First Men.

Jon Snow shd have died too, shikena!

Best episode Yet. Damn ! That khaleesi is simply Majestic

kenturkish:

In the context of the series, Ramsay is good @ what he does probably the best. But in really being a good battle commander and tactician it's a fail for me, going into a battle where you outnumber your opponents almost 3 to 1 and you end up killing more of your men than the said opponents is just sadistic. Even without wun wun, winterfell, Would still be breached because ramsay just didn't have the numbers to protect the castle against a siege. He played all his cards once and he paid dearly for it.

it.[/quote]

His ego and nature cost him.

rose54321:
Season finale Sunday night... can't wait....
Hope Cersei burns kings landing with the wild fire.

I think she will kill tommen.

Get outta my head!

The boring episodes are needed for episodes like these. Every episode cannot be epic.

Ranchhoddas:
After centuries of inter-marrying, no one is purely anything anymore.

In the appendix of A Game of Thrones;
HOUSE ARRYN The Arryns are descended
from the Kings of Mountain and Vale, one of
the oldest and purest lines of Andal nobility.
Their sigil is the moon-and-falcon, white,
upon a sky blue field. The Arryn words are As
High As Honor.

But what i meant was from their roots,their founders where purely Andal or Firstmen, but no House had its founder as a Rhoynar. GRRM said it was hard to find houses that were still purely one of either and remained that way, in a semi canon source, meaning they exist. House Stark managed to keep its blood First Men, till Ned married Cat, they were always marrying into minor houses of the North and Royces or Blackwoods, first men Houses to keep their blood pure. You can 't tell me Houses far North like the Mountain Clans or the Umbers, or the Skagosi Houses interbred with Andals.

eniolaamoda:


Guy i just dislike d fact u know so much about GOT Cant u just b normal

Normal in what way ?

Nihilist:


Whether or not we saw the trenches are irrelevant. Jon said the night before that the trenches were being dug, so we know that they are there.

The trenches were supposed to be used as part of a tactic that was jettisoned as a result of Jons stupidity, so showing the trenches would have been superfluous to the battle scenes anyway.

Given the proximity of the battlefield to the castle, it's almost inconceivable that someone looking outside the window won't have seen a couple thousand men furiously digging trenches and planting stakes in the distance...hence the Bolton's theatrical and successful attempt to lure the Starks away from their defensive positions

Looking at that Battle in isolation, the Boltons were strategically and militarily the superior force, and were rightly in the ascendancy until....

The writers intervened.

All the inconsistencies you mentioned about the Knights of the Vale have nothing to do with Ramsay's lack of tactical acumen.

How can Ramsay see Vale men when even the Starks don't know that they are coming?

Ramsay who saw Jon Snow's men coming, went to meet them out in the field, and was accurately able to guess how many men they had will not see the Vale men coming because writers.

Ramsay who was confident that the castle could not be breached(as predicted by Jon) suddenly had his men decimated inside the castle by relatively few men because writers.

Ramsay who had the opportunity to shoot Jon dead one time, decided instead to waste the opportunity on a dead giant because writers.

Ramsay who has shown himself to be a more than capable close quarters fighter on several occasions would just go down to a few punches because writers

Ramsay who was so deceptively clever that he infiltrated his own forces to con theon, a man who was so astute that he outmanoeuvred his own dad to rise from bastard to warden of the north, all of sudden decides that the best way to kill a man hidden behind a big shield is to keep shooting at the shield.

The writers had decided that Ramsay had to die...so the Vale men had to show up undetected, and Ramsay had to suddenly start making uncharacteristic decisions.

That battle was 10/10 for Ramsay, but the writers just would not let him live

But its speculation on your part what Ramsey's battle plan was, or if they saw men digging trenches or not.
10/10 is perfection by the way.

gj22:


He doesn't care about his men. Remember he is a sadist. All he wanted was to win the war.

In chess, don't people sacrifice the pawns or whatever to win the game? That's exactly what he did.

Pawns who don't need to be sacrificed ?

gj22:


Haha. How i hate seeing this bad writing of a thing. Tell me how many wars you have fought?

The battle was fought in units.

First, Ramsey drew Jon snow out and when he was in the middle of the battle field, he sent his calvary after him. This forced jon snow 's forces to send their calvary too. Now, being in the middle of the park and within reach of Ramsay's archers, Ramsey slaughtered them by firing arrows (slaughtering his own men in the process but he didn't care). Meanwhile, Jon snow 's archers couldn't fire because they might end up killing the little men they have and instead, they attacked on foot. Ramsey surrounded what was left of the army and was about winning the war when the vale army appeared.

Those aren't units, the whole cavalry charging doesn't make a unit. We don't enough of Ramsey's capabilities as a military man. All your assertions are on speculation. Also an absolute suprise force doesn't just show up, except in Hollywood.

Bilany:
Oh Lord not another argument. Please someone should stop this panel discussion on medieval battle expertise.

What else to discuss ? Aye, bring up something else to discuss.

gj22:


I don't think you know what plot armour is. That's how battles are fought and won. You hear soldiers say stuff like "he saved my life on the battle field" . Do they have plot Armour too or is there a real life equivalent of plot Armour?
Also, when he did the same thing to save some of the soldiers, do those soldiers have plot Armour too?

You don't survive horsemen surrounding you on foot the way Jon did, he even hit one so hard he flew out his horse. How did blood not get into his eyes, or how wasn't he trampled to death. All these things are cool for visual effects, but they are unrealistic.

rose54321:
Season finale Sunday night... can't wait....
Hope Cersei burns kings landing with the wild fire.

I think she will kill tommen.

Tommen kills himself...suicide

So if Tommen dies now, who takes over d reign?


KASALA breeding high...

iykmora:
Tommen kills himself...suicide

I doubt that, cersei will kill him.
What could possibly make young King Tomnen commit suicide

The High sparrow has ulterior motives and so does Margery... Sunday's Episode will reveal a lot.