ichuka:
@OP
Who actually gives these Eternal Security?

I don't think I believe in eternal security . But image123 gave me different understanding which seem to rope me in. I believe at the end of the thread I should know my position if what I believe is actually eternal security . But for now . I'm of the opinion that eternal security is false . I believe a christian can lose his salvation .

Image123:


Okay, but give me some time though.

Eagerly waiting . You're one of our major contributors to this thread . I will want your opinion on the issues below:?

Does a christian lose salvation when he sin .

How many times can one lose salvation .

How many times can a man be saved

Can a christian commit a sin . If he does , what happens to him .

Millerz:
There is a certain someone who has been spamming this beautiful thread with all manner of false doctrines. But pls, do not be carried away.

I stand with scholar8200.

Please, anything you view as false doctrine should be SCRIPTURALLY proven to be a false doctrine. Otherwise, may make you look confused and deceitful to me.

THE MAIN PROBLEM OF THE CHRISTIANS OF TODAY IS THAT MOST OF THEM DON'T
READ THEIR BIBLE.

You may call it spamming, but until you reply the OP with answers backed with SCRIPTURES, then I may not take your comments serious.

DO NOT STAND WITH MAN, STAND WITH THE SCRIPTURES!

Stay in grace.

Present sir....but Oga Jo, why te fi wa change I.D yin naw, toriwipe e fe discuss eternal security abi tori nkan mi?...

One can loose his salvation, but not like some folks thin


I believe one can ONLY LOOSE his salvation the same way he got it. If he knowingly rejects Jesus as his Lord with the same mouth he used to confess Jesus as Lord. Atheists knowingly rejects Jesus, in reverting to Islam, you are made to denounce Christ. That to me is a point of no return. (though ot depends too)

I have scriptures to back it up..

Gombs:
One can loose his salvation, but not like some folks thin


I believe one can ONLY LOOSE his salvation the same way he got it. If he knowingly rejects Jesus as his Lord with the same mouth he used to confess Jesus as Lord.

I have scriptures to back it up..

QED

Meaning, if one can loose salvation by the above mentioned, OSAS isn't true right? But, other than that, OSAS is true right?

Goshen360:


QED

Meaning, if one can loose salvation by the above mentioned, OSAS isn't true right? But, other than that, OSAS is true right?

It simply means one can really loose his salvation.


I really didn't understand your grammar.

Gombs:
One can loose his salvation, but not like some folks thin


I believe one can ONLY LOOSE his salvation the same way he got it. If he knowingly rejects Jesus as his Lord with the same mouth he used to confess Jesus as Lord. Atheists knowingly rejects Jesus, in reverting to Islam, you are made to denounce Christ. That to me is a point of no return. (though ot depends too)

I have scriptures to back it up..

I concur to this!

Gombs:


It simply means one can really loose his salvation.


I really didn't understand your grammar.

I'm saying what you saying, ,if one can loose it, it means there's nothing like OSAS right?

And on the other hand, if one doesn't loose it, it means OSAS is right because it's eternal right?

petra1:


Eagerly waiting . You're one of our major contributors to this thread . I will want your opinion on the issues below:?

Does a christian lose salvation when he sin .

How many times can one lose salvation .

How many times can a man be saved

Can a christian commit a sin . If he does , what happens to him .

Here Christ speaks to His church:

Revalation 2:14-16
But I have a few things against thee,... 15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate. 16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

[size=14pt]He commanded the peddlers of false doctrine in the church (yes they were part of the church) to repent else they will suffer the same judgement as would be meted on the antichrist and false prophet!
[/size]
Revelation 2:20-23

Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. 21 And[b] I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not[/b]. 22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, [size=16pt]except they repent of their deeds[/size]. 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

1. Just like Simon the sorcerer who believed and was baptized but had issues needing cleansing, there was a woman who was part of the church and had even began to express the teaching gift but was, before the Judge, a jezebel who was guilty of fornication and causing others to commit same (perhaps her dressing caused men to lust after her remember Matthew 5: 28) and she taught other false doctrines.

2. The Lord gave her space to repent. Exactly what happens when a believer sins- he/she is given space to repent and amend his/her ways at whatever cost. If such refuses to then it means he/she is a reprobate.

3. Recalcitrance and failure to repent brings us under God's judgment. I believe God uses the same measure with us as HE expects of us. How do I mean? If your brother trespass against you tell him and if he repents forgive him. Likewise when we trespass against Him He , by His Spirit/Word shows us, our response would be to repent. If we refuse to repent we are no different from a heathen and will be judged as such Matthew 18:17.

4. If our Advocate is here commanding certain believers to repent, how then do some say we dont need same IF we trespass or sin?

Now consider :
7 Little children, [size=13pt]let no man deceive you:[/size] he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

1 John 3:7,8

Let's not be deceived, we are saved by faith. If we sin against Him and refuse to make our way right, anyone who tells us all is well is a deceiver!

Remember Jesus Words:

But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;

49 and shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;

50 [size=14pt]the lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

51 and shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
[/size]
Matthew 24:48 - 51


Concerning being saved by faith and losing salvation these words are apposite for consideration:

19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21 [size=14pt]for if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee[/size].

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
Roman 11:19-23

If we do not abide in the True Vine and instead of bearing fruit of the Spirit, are bearing the works of the flesh, the Husbandman will definitely cut us off! He is able to graft us in if we repent and return!

Millerz:
There is a certain someone who has been spamming this beautiful thread with all manner of false doctrines. But pls, do not be carried away.

I stand with scholar8200.

Hehehehehehehe, na wa oh.

Goshen360:
Present sir....but Oga Jo, why te fi wa change I.D yin naw, toriwipe e fe discuss eternal security abi tori nkan mi?...

This fellow sef dey here? Where's that your frosb friend?

Okay, sorry for the delay, here i am. i don't feel the "teach" mode i wish though. i'll try to keep it brief and simple, i think i will fare better with answering questions perhaps.

petra1:
Is there such thing as eternal security
What is eternal security

From scriptures, there is nothing like eternal security for man. Eternal security refers to the teaching that once a person is saved or born again, he cannot be a sinner again. He is forever saved, and whatever he does does not affect him, as he is seen as Jesus Christ by God and his sins have been completed paid for. Something along that lines, forgive my unteach mode.
Jud 1:5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
Jud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Can a christian sin

Yes, that is why we have an advocate in the first place. IF we sin.
1Jo 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Can a christian lose salvation

Certainly, what else is implied by been forgiven our sins?
1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

i do not think anyone is saved who has not been forgiven his/her sins. IF we confess our sins, He forgives it. In converse, IF we do not confess our sins, He does not forgive it.

Can a christian lose salvation by committing a sin.

Yes, a christian can lose salvation by committing sin. Unfortunately, many of us give ourselves the duty of condemning others, and many times do not know what sin is. For instance, consider this analogy. People say/think that if you disobey God, you have sinned and you are going to hell. This is not entirely true depending on context. While it is good and great to always obey God, not all disobedience of God is sin or leads to hell or condemnation. Our obedience to/of God ensures that we get the best that God wants for us in the big picture. When we disobey God in some matters, it does not necessarily mean we have sinned in the sense of going to hell. There is a sin not unto death as it were.
Luk 7:13 And when the Lord saw her, he had compassion on her, and said unto her, Weep not.
In this verse above, Jesus told a widow not to weep at her son's burial. If she disobeyed for instance, i do not think that will be a sin or will make her lose salvation or go to hell, but she is apparently disobeying God. However, there are some disobedience and evident sins that separate us from God automatically, most of which are severally listed in scriptures. A christian loses his salvation if for instance he rapes somebody or goes into witchcraft.

Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

How many times can a man be born again.

This question more or less feeds logic. We are expected to consider the irrationality of the posit, while in real fact been born again itself defies logic even if once. We die daily, or at least Paul did, so it goes to show that spiritually such a transaction is feasible many times. It is like bank transactions, they are limitless. It is like metal detection mechanism, it is not about the person or material's innocence but the presence of the metal. Once the metal(sin) is there, the conveyor will stop, or the door will not open. While Jesus abides with us and will never leave us, it is possible for us to leave Him. Rather unfortunately, Jesus is not a possessive spirit like the evil spirits who will possess their victims against their will.

2 Timothy 2:24-25
And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

This is my new monicker formerly joagbaje cc image123, Olaadegbu, Gombs ,Goshen360, Frosbel, mrpresident1, debosky,scholar8200 , candour.I will add more names as I remember .

Questions.

Scholar8200:
Here Christ speaks to His church:

Revalation 2:14-16
But I have a few things against thee,... 15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate. 16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

[size=14pt]He commanded the peddlers of false doctrine in the church (yes they were part of the church) to repent else they will suffer the same judgement as would be meted on the antichrist and false prophet!
[/size]
Revelation 2:20-23

Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. 21 And[b] I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not[/b]. 22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, [size=16pt]except they repent of their deeds[/size]. 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

1. Just like Simon the sorcerer who believed and was baptized but had issues needing cleansing, there was a woman who was part of the church and had even began to express the teaching gift but was, before the Judge, a jezebel who was guilty of fornication and causing others to commit same (perhaps her dressing caused men to lust after her remember Matthew 5: 28) and she taught other false doctrines.

2. The Lord gave her space to repent. Exactly what happens when a believer sins- he/she is given space to repent and amend his/her ways at whatever cost. If such refuses to then it means he/she is a reprobate.

3. Recalcitrance and failure to repent brings us under God's judgment. I believe God uses the same measure with us as HE expects of us. How do I mean? If your brother trespass against you tell him and if he repents forgive him. Likewise when we trespass against Him He , by His Spirit/Word shows us, our response would be to repent. If we refuse to repent we are no different from a heathen and will be judged as such Matthew 18:17.

4. If our Advocate is here commanding certain believers to repent, how then do some say we dont need same IF we trespass or sin?

Now consider :
7 Little children, [size=13pt]let no man deceive you:[/size] he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

1 John 3:7,8

Let's not be deceived, we are saved by faith. If we sin against Him and refuse to make our way right, anyone who tells us all is well is a deceiver!

I pity baby christians!

I thank God most high, for making me strong and matured(though still growing) in the faith of his son, Jesus our saviour!

I guess, this does not in ANYWAY answer the questions you quoted, but was just shipped in to lure some *baby* christians into fear of losing what Jesus through his death on their behalf has FREELY given to them. But, if that's the reason why you shipped it in, NO WAY!!!

PLEASE, BEAR IN MIND that Rev 2:20-23 is not talking about the REAL preachers of the gospel of Jesus who preach the grace of christ as says in Acts 20:24 and Gal 1:3-7, who preach that;

1. Righteousness is the GIFT OF GOD we receive through FAITH ALONE according to Rom 5:15-18 and NOT "worked for" according to eph 2:8-9

2. That we are SAVED by grace through faith according to eph 2:8-9

3. LIVE as people who are already justified and righteous before God by grace through faith according to gal 3:11

4. KEPT by grace through faith by the power of God and NOT through good works or obedience to the abolished(eph 2:15) law of righteousness according to 1peter 1:4-5

5. Saved to DO good works according to Titus 3:8, BUT at the same time FOREWARNED that the works we were called to do is not what gives us eternal life or keep us standing right with God according to Titus 3:4-6.

3. that Jesus took the punishment of our sins by dying at the cross according to 1cor 15:1-4

4. That our WHOLE LIFE sins(past, present and future) has been ATONED FOR at the very day jesus died at the cross.

Col 2:13;13 "And you, being dead in your sins and
the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened
together with him, HAVING FORGIVEN YOU ALL
TRESSPASSES"

How many sins have you committed when jesus died at the cross? NONE! Jesus died to atone the sins PAST, sins PRESENT and sins FUTURE. And he died at the cross ONCE and for EVERYBODY.
Note: until you believe this truth you CANNOT be saved.


NOW COMING TO REV 2:20-23.

20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which CALLETH HERSELF a prophetess, to TEACH and to SEDUCE my servants to COMMIT FORNICATION, and to EAT THINGS SACRIFICED TO IDOLS.
21 And I gave her space to REPENT(change of mind) of her fornication; and she REPENTED NOT(didn't change her mind).
22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you ACCORDING TO YOUR WORKS.


LET'S ANALYSE THE ABOVE VERSE:

1. In vs 20, jesus NOTED,"..which CALLETH HERSELF a prophetess,..."

For jesus to say this means that the woman(jezebel) was NOT CALLED by God to become a prophetess. In other words, she was AN AGENT OF THE DEVIL who PRETENDS to be called by God, with a DELIVISH PLAN of destroying the gospel of the grace of christ that has saved the members of the church when they were first preached to.

Now, how does the woman carry out her devilish plan? Jesus answer; "....to TEACH and to SEDUCE my servants to COMMIT FORNICATION, and to EAT THINGS SACRIFICED TO IDOLS."


In other words, By INTENTIONALLY, CONCIOUSLY, WILLINGLY AND DEVOTEDLY TEACHING AND SEDUCING GOD'S SERVANTS TO COMMIT FORNICATION AND TO EAT THINGS SACRIFIED TO IDOLS.

For a preacher to teach its members; how to fornicate, wilfully seduce them and PROMOTE them to eat things sacrificed to satan(idols), is ENOUGH to tell us that the prophetess was NEVER a believer, but AN AGENT OF THE DEVIL who PRETENDS to be called by God, with a DELIVISH PLAN of destroying the church with false gospels, so that the real gospel of the cross will be corrupted.

2. In vs 21, jesus, said that he gave her time to repent but, she REFUSED.

Now, the word "repent" in that context means CHANGE OF MIND, when translated from greek. So, Jesus gave her time to change her mind FROM teaching members to eat things sacrificed to the devil and seducing the member into fornication TO PREACHING the Gospel of God's grace which has the power to save souls by faith.

So, this is another proof to show that the woman has a SERIOUS AND STUBBORN DEVILISH PLAN to destroy the church and as such WAS NOT preaching righteousness by FAITH ALONE, which was given to us as the real gospel according to phil 3:9.

Phil 3:9; "and may be found in Him [BELIEVING and RELYING ON HIM], NOT HAVING any righteousness of my own derived from [my obedience to] the Law(works of righteousness) and its rituals, BUT [possessing] that [GENIUNE RIGHTEOUSNESS] which comes THROUGH FAITH(alone) IN CHRIST, the righteousness which comes from God on the BASIS OF FAITH(alone).

3. In vs 22, jesus said "22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that COMMIT ADULTERY WITH HER into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds."

Now, Jesus said that THEY who commit adultery with her shall be put into great tribulation, even the prophetess. Who are they? They who HAS BEEN DECEIVED BY HER FALSE TEACHING and have BELIEVED HER "ANOTHER GOSPEL" and now are fornicating with her in accordance to the Gospel that was preached to them by the false prophetess.

4. In vs 23; jesus ended the case by saying;" and I will give unto every one of you ACCORDING TO YOUR WORKS."

I would like to address this no.4 and the rest of the *quoted* answer on a separate answer to avoid making this answer too long.

Now the just shall live by faith: [size=14pt]but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him[/size]. 39 But we are not of them who [size=14pt]draw back unto perdition[/size]; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul
Hebrews 10:38,39

Here we see that a person who once believed and backslides to his life of sin, wallowing in its mire shall perish.




20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
( MEANING THEY WERE ACTUALLY SAVED!!!)

21[b] For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them[/b]
(THEY FAILED, BY GRACE, TO WALK IN HOLINESS OF LIFE!!!)
2 Peter 2:20,21




Cease, my son, to hear the instruction
that causeth to err from the words of knowledge.
[/b]Proverbs 19:27

There are doctrines/instructions that causes people to err!!! Christ died to make us a Glorious Church not having spot nor wrinkle, This should be our pursuit!!!





If the lady called Jezebel was never at a time a true believer as one here claims what should be said about Demas, that he never believed?

Consider:
24 Marcus, Aristarchus, [size=14pt]Demas... my fellow labourers[/size]. Philemon 1:24

Afterwards:

[b]for Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world,
2 Timothy 4:10a

Once a fellow-labourer with no less than Paul but later backslid and became an enemy of God! Why? he loved the world and Bible plainly says:

Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
James 4:4

Now, did Demas retain his salvation?

Image123:


This fellow sef dey here? Where's that your frosb friend?

Egbon yi....we'll have problems with that your response o....haba, you be bible giant naw, why u like to dey fall hands naw..?

Image123, I disagree with you.

You wrote and implied that a Christian looses his salvation anytime he sins, and if he asks for forgiveness, he receives it back, and if he does sin again, the cycle continues.


My question is, was it forgiveness of sin or remission remission of sin that gave us salvation?


If your answer is the latter, how many times is one entitled to remission of Sin?

Thank you.

Bible references will be greatly appreciated.

This topic is not milk for the babies in Christ. We're going to chew meat here and strong meat for that matter. ....hehehe....thread still warming up!

Gombs:
Image123, I disagree with you.

You wrote and implied that a Christian looses his salvation anytime he sins, and if he asks for forgiveness, he receives it back, and if he does sin again, the cycle continues.


My question is, was it forgiveness of sin or remission remission of sin that gave us salvation?


If your answer is the latter, how many times is one entitled to remission of Sin?

Thank you.

Bible references will be greatly appreciated.

No mind that egbon jawe...too much seed no let am know wetin him dey type....I completely disagree with him too even though I was going to reply him in details but too long...kind of lazy these days because of work and rest time but I'm following and reading everyone opinion but it's bible sound doctrine that will stand in the end.

So far so good, Promise10 is doing a good and great job here as far as this topic is concerned, just few more needed to be added...

Goshen360:
This topic is not milk for the babies in Christ. We're going to chew meat here and strong meat for that matter. ....hehehe....thread still warming up!

Lol.

Milk is for babes but meats are for STRONG men.

I see you staying strong on this gospel of grace, God bless you.

I am still coming up with some replies for scholar and image 123, because they are not in line at all. You can as well settle some hersies as you found one.

God bless you!

Stay in grace alone!

[size=14pt]If any man see his brother sin a sin[/size] which is not unto death,[size=14pt] he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin[/size] not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it
1 John 5:16

He was a brother and had life, he sinned (not the unpardonable sin) and needs someone's intercession that he may have LIFE again.(meaning he lost it else why ask for him to have what he had already?).



Also see:
19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
20 let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
James 5:19,20

A brother erred and needed to be converted again! In fact vs 20 calls him a sinner headed to perdition!

In the mouth of 2 or 3 witnesses this fact has been established

Gombs:
Image123, I disagree with you.

You wrote and implied that a Christian looses his salvation anytime he sins, and if he asks for forgiveness, he receives it back, and if he does sin again, the cycle continues.


My question is, was it forgiveness of sin or remission remission of sin that gave us salvation?


If your answer is the latter, how many times is one entitled to remission of Sin?

Thank you.

Bible references will be greatly appreciated.

The two, Luke 24:47

Goshen360:


Egbon yi....we'll have problems with that your response o....haba, you be bible giant naw, why u like to dey fall hands naw..?

Image123:
Okay, sorry for the delay, here i am. i don't feel the "teach" mode

Thank you for your response. I will appreciate if you can throw light on this issue.

Is salvation a one time experince ? Or does a Christian lose salvation each time he sins, and has to get saved again.

Image123:


The two, Luke 24:47

Get serious please.

petra1:


Thank you for your response. I will appreciate if you can throw light on this issue.

Is salvation a one time experince ? Or does a Christian lose salvation each time he sins, and has to get saved again.

i'm on phone, dey talk say i no serious. You guys will have to wait oh,seems gombs don't appreciate one liners.

Image123:


i'm on phone, dey talk say i no serious. You guys will have to wait oh,seems gombs don't appreciate one liners.

You can take as much time as you'd like... Whenever you are ready, kindly explain how BOTH forgiveness of sins and remission of sin ushered us into salvation.


Or better still, What's the difference between forgiveness of sins and remission of sins. Thanks

Scholar8200:
Here Christ speaks to His church:

Revalation 2:14-16
But I have a few things against thee,... 15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate. 16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

[size=14pt]He commanded the peddlers of false doctrine in the church (yes they were part of the church) to repent else they will suffer the same judgement as would be meted on the antichrist and false prophet!
[/size]
Revelation 2:20-23

Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. 21 And[b] I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not[/b]. 22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, [size=16pt]except they repent of their deeds[/size]. 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

1. Just like Simon the sorcerer who believed and was baptized but had issues needing cleansing, there was a woman who was part of the church and had even began to express the teaching gift but was, before the Judge, a jezebel who was guilty of fornication and causing others to commit same (perhaps her dressing caused men to lust after her remember Matthew 5: 28) and she taught other false doctrines.

2. The Lord gave her space to repent. Exactly what happens when a believer sins- he/she is given space to repent and amend his/her ways at whatever cost. If such refuses to then it means he/she is a reprobate.

3. Recalcitrance and failure to repent brings us under God's judgment. I believe God uses the same measure with us as HE expects of us. How do I mean? If your brother trespass against you tell him and if he repents forgive him. Likewise when we trespass against Him He , by His Spirit/Word shows us, our response would be to repent. If we refuse to repent we are no different from a heathen and will be judged as such Matthew 18:17.

4. If our Advocate is here commanding certain believers to repent, how then do some say we dont need same IF we trespass or sin?

Now consider :
7 Little children, [size=13pt]let no man deceive you:[/size] he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

1 John 3:7,8

Let's not be deceived, we are saved by faith. If we sin against Him and refuse to make our way right, anyone who tells us all is well is a deceiver!

By quoting rev 2:14-16, I hope you are not trying to make the gospel of grace to look like gospel of nicolaitan. If that's you motive, it is hereby frustrated!

The gospel of grace is NOT a gospel of Nicolaitian.

Guys, don't be deceived and lured into fearing that the gospel of grace which was given to us is a gospel of nicolaitian.
NEVER!!

The easiest means these preachers of the false gospel of "grace + works = eternal life" can use in deceiving you, is by injecting fear that makes you to question what Jesus FREELY did for you on your behalf. But, it's not gonna happen here. I SAY NEVER!!

We were warned of the gospel of nicolaitan and at the same time warned of the gospel of "good works + faith = eternal life" and ANY GOSPEL DOES NOT PREACH SALVATION AND RIGHTEOUSNESS BY FAITH ALONE!!!

In Revelation, chapter 2, we read of an enigmatic sect or group called the Nicolaitans who post a great threat to the churches of God. The Messiah, Yeshua, says to the Ephesus church: “But this you have, that you hate the DEEDS of the Nicoaitans, which I also HATE” (Rev.2:6).


NOTICE that they hated and rejected the doctrines, works, and doctrines of the “Nicolaitans.”

The Ephesus church was historically a type or antitype of the first and second century churches of God – essentially, the first generation of the church and their early descendents.

But Christ said, “He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to [all] the churches” (v.7).

Then, to the Pergamos church, who existed in a succeeding period of the church.

Jesus declares again: “But I have a few things against you, because you have there those who hold the DOCTRINE OF BALAM, WHO TAUGHT BALAK, to put a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols, and to commit sexual immorality.

Thus [i.e. therefore] you also have those who hold the doctrine of the Niicolaitans, which thing I hate. REPENT, or else I will come to you quickly and will fight against them with the sword of My mouth” (vs.14-16).


DOCTRINE OF BALAM DETAILED AND TREATED BELOW.

NOTICE that their teachings are comparable or the same as the doctrine of Balaam, the arch apostate deceiver and prophet who tried to divine magic against Israel when they came out of Egypt.

When God would not allow him to place a curse on Israel, he later TAUGHT the Midianites and their allies to “SEDUCE” Israel from their faithfulness to God, BY
sending their daughters and wives to use their sexual charms on them, and to ENTICE them to commit immorality and the PARTAKE of pagan festivities and idolatrous worship, COMBINING PAGANISM WITH THE WORSHIP OF GOD – something which God abominates and thoroughly detests!


The BLENDING THE TRUTH OF GOD WITH PAGANISM AND WICKED PEGAN FESTIVALS and practices is an abhorrence to God. It is called religious “syncretism.”

THIS IS WHAT THE GOSPEL OF NICOLAITAN COMPRISES OF!!!!! And not the gospel of grace and righteousness by FAITH ALONE. It totally the opposite!!!


The word “Nicolaitans,” in Greek, means
“followers of Nicolas.” The name “Nicolas” means “victor of the people.”

Peloubet’s Bible Dictionary says of them,
“They seem to have held that it was LAWFUL TO EAT THINGS SACRIFICED TO IDOLS, AND TO COMMIT IMMORAL EXCESSES of the heathen, in opposition to the decree of the Church rendered in Acts 15:20, 29.


Mingling themselves in the ORGIES OF IDOLATROUS FEAST, they brought the impurities of those feasts into the meetings of the Christian Church. And all this was done, it must be remembered, not simply as an indulgence of appetite, but AS A PART OF THE SYSTEM, supported by a “doctrine,” accompanied by the boasts of a prophetic illumination”


The Nicolaitans, therefore, were the EARLY CHRISTIAN-PAGAN syncretists, the false teachers that CREPT into the church, who disguised themselves as followers of Christ – who professed to be His ministers and servants – but who led the people astray.


PETER WROTE OF THEM, saying, “But there were also false prophets among the people [SUCH AS BALLAM], even as there will be FALSE TEACHERS among you, who will secretly bring in DESTRUCTIVE
HERESIES, EVEN DENYING OUR LORD WHO BOUGHT THEM, and bring on themselves swift destruction. And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed” – by the world around, which will paint all true Christians with
the same brush-stroke, as being corrupt, immoral, and evil, because of the shenanigans and wicked works of these “Nicolaitans” or false Christians, false teachers who claim to represent Messiah and His truth (II Pet.2:1-2).


Peter goes on, “By covetousness they will
exploit you with deceptive words” (v.2). He says of them, that they “despise authority. They are presumptuous, self-willed,” and like brutish beasts “speak evil of the things they do not understand” (verse10, 12). “They are spots and blemishes [in the churches], carousing in their own deceptions while they feast with you . . . They have a
heart trained in covetous practices, and are accursed children.

They have forsaken the right way and gone astray, FOLLOWING THE WAY OF BALAAM(christian-pagan) the son of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness” (verses 13-15).


These are the ‘Nicolaitans.” Halley’s Bible
Handbook tells us of them, “SEXUAL VICE WERE ACTUALLY A PART of heathen worship, and RECOGNISE AS A PROPER THING in heathen festivals. Priestesses of
Diana and kindred deities were public prostitutes.

The thing had been a troublesome question for Gentile churches from the start. . . Meantime great multitudes of heathen had become Christians, and
had carried some of their old ideas into their new religion. . . Naturally there were all sorts of attempts to harmonize these heathen practices with the Christian religion. Many professing Christian teachers, claiming inspiration from God, were advocating the right to free participation in heathen immoralities.

In Ephesus, the Christian pastors, as a body, excluded such teachers. But in Pergamum and Thyatira, while we are not to think that the main body of pastors held such teachings, yet they tolerated within their ranks those who did”



So, inclusion, the gospel of grace is an OPPOSITE to the gospel of nicolaitan. Anyone, who says otherwise, IS FROM THE DEVIL!!!!

Scholar8200:
Here Christ speaks to His church:

Revalation 2:14-16
But I have a few things against thee,... 15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate. 16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

[size=14pt]He commanded the peddlers of false doctrine in the church (yes they were part of the church) to repent else they will suffer the same judgement as would be meted on the antichrist and false prophet!
[/size]
Revelation 2:20-23

Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. 21 And[b] I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not[/b]. 22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, [size=16pt]except they repent of their deeds[/size]. 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

1. Just like Simon the sorcerer who believed and was baptized but had issues needing cleansing, there was a woman who was part of the church and had even began to express the teaching gift but was, before the Judge, a jezebel who was guilty of fornication and causing others to commit same (perhaps her dressing caused men to lust after her remember Matthew 5: 28) and she taught other false doctrines.

2. The Lord gave her space to repent. Exactly what happens when a believer sins- he/she is given space to repent and amend his/her ways at whatever cost. If such refuses to then it means he/she is a reprobate.

3. Recalcitrance and failure to repent brings us under God's judgment. I believe God uses the same measure with us as HE expects of us. How do I mean? If your brother trespass against you tell him and if he repents forgive him. Likewise when we trespass against Him He , by His Spirit/Word shows us, our response would be to repent. If we refuse to repent we are no different from a heathen and will be judged as such Matthew 18:17.

4. If our Advocate is here commanding certain believers to repent, how then do some say we dont need same IF we trespass or sin?

Now consider :
7 Little children, [size=13pt]let no man deceive you:[/size] he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

1 John 3:7,8

Let's not be deceived, we are saved by faith. If we sin against Him and refuse to make our way right, anyone who tells us all is well is a deceiver!

NOTE: Please, to understand this, you have to read my 2 previous replies to scholar2800. In my last 2 replies to scholar2800, I analysed rev 2:20-23. But vs 23 was untouched as I said that I will replying that on a separate answers.

Rev 2:23;"23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you ACCORDING TO YOUR WORKS."

Firstly, Jesus was not saying that he will kill the EARTHLY children of the false prophetess. Why would jesus kill her earthly children while SALVATION IS PERSONAL? Jesus is referring to people who have accepted her teachings as her children. In other words, people who she has BEGOTTEN by deceiving them into believing her "another gospel".

If you read the verse above carefully, you will see that jesus ended that verse with these words;"...and I will give unto every one of you ACCORDING TO YOUR WORKS."

So many false teachers would like to make statements like this look like eternal life(going to heaven) is a reward we receive because of good works. They use it to promote their CROSS-LESS false gospel of "Grace(faith) + good works = eternal life" which we were warned of, by paul according to rom 11:6;

Rom 11:6;"6 And if by grace, then is it NO MORE OF WORKS: OTHERWISE GRACE IS NO MORE GRACE. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work."

In the above verse, it is VERY CLEAR how paul refuted that false gospel of "Grace(faith) + good works = eternal life". Because paul noted that if we should add works to grace which is declared as THE FREE GIFT OF GOD, then it is NO MORE a free gift(grace). In conclusion, paul was saying that our salvation and right standing before God is EITHER by relying 100% on grace and relying 0% on works OR by 100% on works and 0% on grace.

In other words, it is either we follow 100% grace ALONE and forgetting about relying on works OR by relying on 100% good works and forgetting about believing the finished work of christ(grace). Now, because it is evident that no man is righteous by law through 100% good works, therefore we can now ONLY be saved by grace through faith

Rom 3:20;"20 Therefore by the DEEDS(good works) of the law there shall NO FLESH be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin"

Rom 3;23-24; 23 For ALL have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being JUSTIFIED(saved) FREELY BY HIS GRACE through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:"


Now to analyse that statement that was capitalised in the rev 2:23, we have analyse it by questioning the statement.

Question 1: on what basis, shall we be judged, and rewarded?
Question 2: what is our reward?
Question 3: what will happen when we loose our reward?

The answers to the above questions should be biblical!

Question 1: on what basis shall we be judged and rewarded of?
Answer 1:
While answering this question, we MUST be careful to avoid preaching CROSS-CHRIST-LESS gospels just to please our emotions.

Firstly, the unbelievers will judged of their sins and rewarded by going to hell, so bad! Because they committed sin? NO, NO and NO(everybody do, knowingly or unknowingly)!!! Then why? John 3:18 has good answer for us!

John 3:18;"18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that BELIEVETH NOT IS CONDEMNED ALREADY,(why?) BECAUSE HE HATH NOT BELIEVED in the name of the only begotten son of God(jesus)"

Believers WILL NEVER go to heaven(eternal life) because they did good works and unbelievers WILL NEVER go to hell because they did something wrong. Unbelievers will ONLY go to hell because they WILFULLY REFUSED to believe in Jesus and what he did for them ON THEIR BEHALF. So pathetic!

And what did Jesus do on their behalf?
1. He was JUDGED for their whole life sins ON THEIR BEHALF.
2. He was CONVICTED for their whole life sins ON THEIR BEHALF.
3. He was CONDEMNED AND PUNISHED through death at the cross for their whole life sins on THEIR BEHALF
4. And FREELY offered them a FREE GIFT of "right standing with God" which they can only receive by believing in what he did for them.

Now, because they didn't believe on jesus who took the punishment of their sins, when they die, they will take their own punishment by themselves which means death in hell. Whereas, jesus died their death on their behalf, but because they refused, they now have to pay for their sins by themselves.


However, WE AS BELIEVERS WILL NOT BE JUDGED OF SIN BUT OF THE WORKS WE WERE CALLED TO DO. Why not of sin? Because we have believed on him who was JUDGED for our whole life sins ON OUR BEHALF, was CONVICTED for our whole life sins ON OUR BEHALF, was CONDEMNED AND PUNISHED through death at the cross for our whole life sins on OUR BEHALF, who has FREELY offered us a FREE GIFT of "right standing with God" which we have only received by believing in what jesus did for us. And by that, he WILL NOT judge us of the sins he judged, convicted, condemned and punished his son(jesus christ) for, on OUR BEHALF. Otherwise means that christ's death was MURDER and NOT A SACRIFICE.

So, in conclusion we shall only be judged of good works and rewarded by our good works, which we were called to do.


Question 2: what is our reward?
Answer 2: Our reward IS NOT eternal life!!! Eternal life is a GIFT!!! Any gospel that says otherwise must be a FRAUDLENT GOSPEL.

Now, eternal life is NOT A REWARD FOR GOOD WORKS that we will receive on the judgement day, but A FREE GIFT of God we can receive even at this very moment through grace by believing in the punishment of our sins which christ took at the cross through his death ON OUR BEHALF. Any gospel that says otherwise is a FRAUDULENT AND HERETIC GOSPEL.

When we hear "grace", what should come to our mind is "GIFT".
Eph 2:8;"8 For by GRACE ARE YE SAVED THROUGH FAITH; and that not of yourselves: IT(grace) is the GIFT(free) OF GOD:"

And when we hear "work" what should come to our mind is "REWARD".
Rom 4:4;"4 NOW TO HIM THAT WORKETH IS THE REWARD not reckoned of grace(free gift), but of debt."

Eternal life is the GIFT of God and not a reward for good works. If we must receive a reward, we must maintain good works, but MUST NEVER rely on it to stand right with God.

Titus 3:8;" This is a trustworthy saying. And I want you to stress these things, so that those(justified) who have trusted in God may be careful to devote themselves to doing what is good(works). (Why? Because)These things are excellent and profitable for everyone."

Titus 3:5;"5. he saved(justified) us, NOT because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,"

what is the reward we, who ALREADY HAVE THE GIFT OF GOD WHICH IS ETERNAL LIFE, will receive if we maintain the good works? 2tim 4:8 and 2cor 9:24-27 answers it well.

2tim 4:8;"Henceforth there is laid up for me a CROWN OF RIGHTEOUSNESS which the Lord, the righteous judge, SHALL GIVE ME ON THAT DAY(judgement): and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing."


2cor 9:24-27;"Know ye not that they which RUN(good works) in a race run all, but one receiveth the PRIZE(reward)?
25 So RUN(good works), that ye may OBTAIN(be rewarded).
26 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to OBTAIN(be rewarded) a corruptible crown; BUT WE AN INCORRUPTIBLE CROWN.
27 I therefore so RUN(good works) not as uncertainly; so fight(good works) I, not as one that beateth the air:
28 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a DISAPPROVED(from getting my reward).

When we do good works(run), the 2 verses above tells us that we shall be rewarded of an INCORRUPTIBLE CROWN OF RIGHTEOUSNESS on the judgment day.

Question 3: what will happen when we loose our reward?
Answer 3: In my answer to question 1, I concluded by saying that we shall only be judged of good works and rewarded by our good works, which we were called to do.

Now, people who will be rewarded are BELIEVERS whose works were tested and found to be good. But, any BELIEVER whose works will be tested and found of NO GOOD QUALITY(bad works) will LOOSE HIS REWARD. But what will happen after we have lost our reward? 1cor 3:13-15 answers it right!

1cor 3:13-15;"13 every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work OF WHAT(ever) SORT IT IS.
14 If any man's work ABIDE(good works) which he hath built thereupon, he shall RECEIVE A REWARD.
15 If any man's work shall be burned(bad works), he shall suffer loss: BUT HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; yet so as by fire."

In the above verses, if you do works and they are tried and found TRUE, you shall receive a reward. And we saw in Question 2 that our reward is an INCORRUPTIBLE CROWN OF RIGHTEOUSNESS.

But, if we do works and our works are tried and found BURNT(bad), we shall suffer loss of getting our reward. But, because eternal life is the GIFT of God, paul recognised that and went on to say that the person will suffer loss of his reward, BUT HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED.

Why will the person be saved even though he shall suffer loss? Because eternal life is NOT on the basis of works but a FREE GIFT.

I think this is enough for now.

Stay in grace!

Scholar8200:
Here Christ speaks to His church:

Revalation 2:14-16
But I have a few things against thee,... 15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate. 16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

[size=14pt]He commanded the peddlers of false doctrine in the church (yes they were part of the church) to repent else they will suffer the same judgement as would be meted on the antichrist and false prophet!
[/size]
Revelation 2:20-23

Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. 21 And[b] I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not[/b]. 22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, [size=16pt]except they repent of their deeds[/size]. 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

1. Just like Simon the sorcerer who believed and was baptized but had issues needing cleansing, there was a woman who was part of the church and had even began to express the teaching gift but was, before the Judge, a jezebel who was guilty of fornication and causing others to commit same (perhaps her dressing caused men to lust after her remember Matthew 5: 28) and she taught other false doctrines.

2. The Lord gave her space to repent. Exactly what happens when a believer sins- he/she is given space to repent and amend his/her ways at whatever cost. If such refuses to then it means he/she is a reprobate.

3. Recalcitrance and failure to repent brings us under God's judgment. I believe God uses the same measure with us as HE expects of us. How do I mean? If your brother trespass against you tell him and if he repents forgive him. Likewise when we trespass against Him He , by His Spirit/Word shows us, our response would be to repent. If we refuse to repent we are no different from a heathen and will be judged as such Matthew 18:17.

4. If our Advocate is here commanding certain believers to repent, how then do some say we dont need same IF we trespass or sin?

Now consider :
7 Little children, [size=13pt]let no man deceive you:[/size] he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

1 John 3:7,8

Let's not be deceived, we are saved by faith. If we sin against Him and refuse to make our way right, anyone who tells us all is well is a deceiver!

In your no.1 I have settled the case of the woman jesus called a fornicator in rev 2:20-23.

I view your no.2 as something totally flawed!!! SO CROSS-LESS AND CHRIST-LESS!!!

YOU SAID THIS IN YOUR NO.2;
"2. The Lord gave her space to repent. Exactly what happens when a believer sins- he/she is given space to repent and amend his/her ways at whatever cost. If such refuses to then it means he/she is a reprobate."

I have tried so well to help you to know the biblical meaning of "repent" but you still don't want to learn. I don't just know why.

Now, the word "repent" in that context is called metanoeó in greek which means a CHANGE OF MIND. So, as I said before that Jesus gave her time to change her mind FROM teaching members to eat things sacrificed to the devil and seducing the member into fornication TO
PREACHING the Gospel of God's grace which has the power to save souls by faith. Very simple, but you keep on complicating it.

Now, a believer needs repentance(change of mind), both while he is doing good works and while he is not doing good works.

How does a believer repent in his right living and his wrong living?

“Repentance is not some little silly, 'I'm sorry.' Repentance is not simply a negative fear of God of throwing you into hell. Repentance is not a monk fasting and afflicting his body in a monastery. Repentance is not remorse because of sin's consequences. Repentance is not penance performed before the pope as you kiss his toe... Repentance is not being sorry for what I've done wrong. It is not confessing one's sins to a priest. It is not JUST conviction of sin. IT IS NOT THE SIGNING OF A FALSE PLEDGE OF ABSTINENCE. REPENTANCE IS that thing when you come before God and see yourself AS YOU ARE, and see Him AS HE IS, and say with Isaiah 'Woe is me, for I am unclean!' EVEN WHEN YOU ARE LIVING RIGHT, BECAUSE YOUR RIGHT LIVING IS A FILTHY RAG BEFORE GOD”

If what you meant by repentance is "change of character", then you are playing ignorance here, because he cannot fall back unless he stops relying on the finished work of christ(grace) and goes back to rely on his works of righteousness. And that will no more keep him saved!

If the person starts to change his character AS A MEANS OF STAYING RIGHTEOUS before God, then it simply means that the person is no more relying on grace through faith, but relying on the works of the law of righteousness and as such is UNDER A CURSE.

Gal 3:10;"All who are depending upon their own obedience to the Law(of righteousness) are UNDER A CURSE, for it is written, "Cursed is every one who does not remain faithful to ALL(10 commandments and 630 laws) the precepts of the Law, and practise them."

Your no.3 is seriously misleading!

YOU SAID THIS;"3. Recalcitrance and failure to repent brings us under God's judgment. I believe God uses the same measure with us as HE expects of us. How do I mean? If your brother trespass against you tell him and if he repents forgive him. Likewise when we trespass against Him He , by His Spirit/Word shows us, our response would be to repent. If we refuse to repent we are no different from a heathen and will be judged as such Matthew 18:17."

What exactly do you mean by "repent"?

If repent means to you; SIGNING OF FALSE PLEDGE OF ABSTINENCE FROM SIN, then it is more of a sin! Because, you know that even after making the pledge of abstinence you will still sin whether knowing or unknowingly, and as such YOU ARE LYING TO GOD AND FALSELY PROMISING GOD OF SINLESS PERFECTION, which you know fully well that is NOT POSSIBLE!


What exactly do you mean by God's judgement? Because everybody shall come under God's judgement.

If what you meant by that clause "...brings us under God's judgment" is that God will judge us and punish us for the sins he judged, convicted, condemned and punished his son for, ON OUR BEHALF, then this shows AGAIN that you are in for that heretic CROSS-LESS, CHRIST-LESS gospel!!! Anyway, I have addressed the issue of judgment on a separate answer.

Note: If someone offends you, you can still forgive the person EVEN IF he didn't change. If not, then you are keeping malice!

We receive God's eternal forgiveness of sin which he has given out FREELY, not by him telling us "hey guys, you are forgiven" and we believing in what he said. NO! But by God laying the punishment of the our whole life sins on his son, Jesus at the cross, and by that CANCELS OFF our punishment because his son has taken it and we believe, and BY THAT FAITH we receive eternal forgiveness of sin. Very simple!

Your no.4 is misleading as well!!

YOU SAID THIS;"4. [b]If our Advocate is here commanding certain believers to repent, how then do some say we dont need same IF we trespass or sin?"

Jesus is our advocate, that is intercessor.

How does Jesus advocate for us?
Jesus DOES NOT INTERCEED or ADVOCATE FOR US by always begging God the father to accept us but when God sees the faith we have in the punishment Jesus took on our behalf we are advocated for, mediated, justified and reconciled!!! And this takes place whether we are doing good works or not. And bear in mind that if we are living rightly, but do not rely on the faith of christ's finished work as a means of righteousness we are no more reconciled and mediated before God.

To understand how it works you have to know that we were ONCE AND FOR ALL interceded for, when Jesus took the position of our sinful nature and FREELY declared us innocent by the faith we have in him and this took place ONCE. Now, by our steadfast faith in the perfect interceding work he did at the cross, we are steadfastly interceded and advocated for as well in our life.

You as well noted that jesus told certain believers to repent. What exactly did Jesus mean by the repent? Change of character as a means of right standing with God? NEVER!!!!!! A CHANGE OF MIND which in SOME GENUINE CASES(not all) undeniably leads to change of character, though may not be 100%. But, right standing does not come because of change of character, but by right believing!

Nobody says we need no repentance! People who are misled are people who hold such view! But, the problem we have on that word "repent" is that people like you pervert it to selfishly propagate their false teaching.

What I am preaching is that biblical repentance which is know as "change of mind and having right sense of believing" is for EVERYBODY, whether you are living rightly or not. But, you are making it look as if it is ONLY for people who committed sin, and making it look as if people who live rightly need no repentance because God is seeing them as righteous because of right living, which is perverting the meaning of the word "repentance" to make it look like "change of character", which it is absolutely not! And as well perverting the cause of our righteousness by pointing to good works as a source of right standing, which is a falsehood.


Stay in grace!