MuttleyLaff:
You simply just caught Image123 going through one of his indifference moments, that's all
and so shouldnt have had to form humble on him with this post nor waste away the ''Have a great day sir'' nicety on him

Have a great day sir is not a waste, i need it.lol.

Image123:


Have a great day sir is not a waste, i need it.lol.

didn't even need popcorn to follow this far, I pray God establish us all in the true light of the Gospel in Jesus name, amen.

Scholar8200:
But what if the 'christian refuses to admit his sin or does so with no purpose of heart to avoid same (2 Corinth 7: 11,10)? Does he remain saved?

I don't think he is still a Christian . No child of God want to live in sin. Such as you mentioned already has his conscience seared . He no longer has conscience towards God. It's a man who has lost his salvation that can be like that.

petra1:


I don't think he is still a Christian . No child of God want to live in sin. Such as you mentioned already has his conscience seared . He no longer has conscience towards God. It's a man who has lost his salvation that can be like that.

Thank you very much sir!

promise10:

Jesus doesn't want you to be in a position where you are CLEARLY UNSURE whether he totally saved you or not.

Start reading your bible, it will help a lot.

For the sake of people who might step into error by following your "over-stretched" doctrine of grace, i have decided to state a few facts based on the written word of God in the bible;

1) Sinners can go to hell because they are not saved
2) A believer in Christ who had at some point in his/her life made a decision to get born again can also go to hell IF HE/SHE CHOOSES TO CONTINUE TO MAKE A PRACTICE OF SIN AFTER GETTING BORN AGAIN

It is easy to understand point 1, so I will not dwell on it

On the 2nd point above, I'll start by stating clearly that sin is referred to as darkness in the scriptures, and if you remember quite well, the bible was describing God and it said "......in him is no DARKNESS"

Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus in John 3, and clearly told him two things you might want to note;
1) Except a man be born again, HE CANNOT SEE THE KINGDOM OF GOD (verse 3)
2) Except a man be born of the water and of the Spirit, HE CANNOT ENTER INTO THE KINGDOM OF GOD (verse 5)

I believe we understand plain English and the fact tha Jesus means everything he says. It is one thing to see a place and it is another thing to enter the place you see. Getting born again only grants you citizenship of heaven while you are still on earth, but your eventually making it into heaven is dependent on what you make of your citizenship rights & culture here while you wait for your time to step into eternity. If you have an American citizenship or maybe just a visa conferred on you while living in Nigeria, it doesn't automatically mean you will certainly be able to enter America - you could choose to join a terrorist organization afterwards and if you're discovered to have done such, the American government holds the right to revoke your citizenship and prevent you from ever entering America. You could also have a visa and make the trip to America in a plane, only to be denied entry by their immigration service for violating one of their entry rules and in that case deported back to Nigeria despite having had a visa!

Apostle Paul in writing to people who were already believers, made a profound statement when he wrote and said "work out your salvation with fear and trembling". Why would Paul be writing to christians and tell them to work out their salvation with fear and trembling if just answering an altar call to get born again is all that somebody needs to do to make it to heaven? I believe you don't have more understanding about grace than Apostle Paul who wrote that.

Does it mean that your works is what justifies or gets you saved? NO!!! But you were saved by grace so you can depart from sin, not for you to continue in sin!
This is why there are 2 dimensions of grace when it comes to our salvation and deliverance from sin; 1) The redemptive dimension - where Jesus paid the price for our sin and all we need to do is accept him and his blood washes away EVERY SIN WE EVER COMMITTED before coming to Christ, and God gives you a free gift of righteousness that you did not merit or work for. In this case, you don't have to do anything to achieve this righteousness except just believing in Christ and confessing him as your Lord and Saviour.
2) The experiential dimension of grace - where you now receive empowerment by the Holy Ghost to live above the dominion of sin after you have given your life to christ. This is when the Holy Ghost now begins to help you overcome daily temptations by grace. It is this dimension of grace that produces holy living in men.

You should read Hebrews 12:14 and see what it clearly states; "follow peace with all men, and HOLINESS, without which no man shall see The Lord".
That you are now born again does not mean you will enter heaven without walking in love and living a holy life. God gave us a commandment; "be ye holy even as your heavenly father is holy"........that was not a suggestion!

So, to tell us that once born again somebody cannot lose his salvation and end up in hell afterwards is a statement that is anti-scriptural.

Jesus was once speaking to his disciples and he said to them that on the day of judgement, many will say to him "Lord Lord, we cast out devils in your name, we healed the sick and did many miracles in your name", but he will say to them 'DEPART FROM ME, YE WORKERS OF INIQUITY FOR I KNOW YOU NOT'. He then went further to say that not all those who call him Lord will enter into the kingdom of God, but those who do the will of His Father in heaven.

Being born again changes your spiritual nature from the nature of sin to the nature of God, and because God cannot sin, that is why the bible says in 1John that "he that is born of God cannot sin". That statement is a fact. If you have the nature of God in your spirit, your spirit would want to please God and not sin, but you still need to remember you also have a mind and a body that were not saved like your spirit when you got born again, and that is why the bible says that "the spirit wars after the flesh and the flesh after the spirit".........you need to mortify (subdue) the deeds of the flesh by the Spirit of God. This only happens when you have constant fellowship with God and continually study and feed on God's word and have a strong prayer life. Outside of these, you will only keep struggling to live a holy life and after a while you will give up and begin to think it is impossible to live above sin. GOD CANNOT ASK US TO LIVE HOLY AND ABOVE SIN IF HE KNOWS HE HAS NOT MADE THE PROVISION FOR US TO MAKE IT HAPPEN IN OUR LIVES!

It is the Holy Ghost living and working in a believer that makes him able to live out the righteousness of God that was freely given to him at salvation. you will only continue living in sin as a believer if you have not encountered the experiential dimension of grace or if you just choose to indulge in sin because you love the pleasures of sin.

There is heaven and there is hell. sin that is unrepented of as a christian will take you to hell. God is the same yesterday, today and forever - He doesn't change! Jesus said he did not come to abolish the law or the 10commandments, but to fulfil them, so any christian that feels there is no need to live right because of grace is a believer that is joking with his life!

Read John 1:17; it says the law came by Moses, but grace and TRUTH came by Jesus Christ. Grace tells you that you don't have to do anything to be saved from your sin except believing in Christ and confessing him as Lord and saviour, but TRUTH also tells you that you were not saved to continue in sin, and that you need to work out your salvation with fear and trembling

promise10:

Lol.

Milk is for babes but meats are for STRONG men.

I see you staying strong on this gospel of grace, God bless you.

I am still coming up with some replies for scholar and image 123, because they are not in line at all. You can as well settle some hersies as you found one.

God bless you!

Stay in grace alone!

Before you quote me as a "baby christian" too, I will leave you with Romans 8:1 - "There is therefore now no condemnation to them in Christ Jesus, WHO WALK NOT AFTER THE FLESH, BUT AFTER THE SPIRIT"

In simple terms, if you think you are born again and in Christ Jesus, but you are still constantly walking after the flesh (making a practice of sin), then there is still condemnation awaiting you according to Romans 8:1

Candour:


I still dey but i got tired of religious and doctrinal arguments.

I still come here though, read anything of interest, SMH at some nonsense and leave

Edelweiss44:


Before you quote me as a "baby christian" too, I will leave you with Romans 8:1 - "There is therefore now no condemnation to them in Christ Jesus, WHO WALK NOT AFTER THE FLESH, BUT AFTER THE SPIRIT"

In simple terms, if you think you are born again and in Christ Jesus, but you are still constantly walking after the flesh (making a practice of sin), then there is still condemnation awaiting you according to Romans 8:1

In simple terms, it is in the character of those in Christ to walk after the Spirit!

promise10:


1. I totally comply with your no 1.

2. Your no.2 should not imply to mistaken sins alone, but to ANY KIND OF SIN. Please, don't forget that SIN IS SIN, we should not always try to bring the word "mistaken sin" into discussions like this because MOST sin that man commit is DELIBERATE. But, not withstanding, I would like you to list out sins that can be seen as mistaken and not deliberate before it is committed.

3. I view your no.3 answer as something TOTALLY FLAWED. What do you mean by "...we will ONCE AGAIN need the mediation of our Advocate,..."

You FULLY ignored that "mediation" in that context means reconciling/justifying. That's why you made it look like we ONLY need to be mediated when we sin and that is a TOTAL FALSEHOOD.

If we are only mediated "once again" when we commit sin, so it means that we don't need to be mediated when we are doing the right thing? In other words, when we live rightly God sees us as people who are righteous and KEPT MEDIATED(justified), but if we do something wrong, we cease to be mediated(justified) before him until we ask jesus to mediate us back. THAT IS A TOTAL LIE!!!

Why? Because this is pointing to the fact that we are saved(justified) by faith, kept by good works and abandoned because we did something wrong.

WE ARE SAVED BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH, LIVE AND KEPT BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH AND NEVER BY WORKS.

Eph 2:8-9;"8 FOR BY GRACE ARE YE SAVED THROUGH FAITH(believing); and that not of yourselves: IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD:
9 NOT OF WORKS(right living), lest any man should
boast."

1peter 1:4-5;"4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 WHO ARE KEPT by the power of God THROUGH FAITH(grace and not by works) unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."

WE ARE NOT KEPT BY DOING WHAT IS RIGHT AND WE ARE NOT ABANDONED BECAUSE WE DID SOMETHING WRONG. RATHER WE ARE KEPT BY FAITH IN THE FINISHED WORK OF CHRIST THROUGH THE POWER OF GOD.


WE ARE BEING RECONCILED BOTH IN OUR GOOD DOINGS AND BAD DOINGS. The worst of all is that you made look like our reconciliation is MOMENTAL, please that's a heresy.

Because, our right living is such a filthy rag to keep us justified before God, we are mediated through out our life, we are in faith(believing) and not momental.

Our mediation, reconciliation and justification took place at the cross but has a EVER CONTINOUS EFFECT on believers.

Rom 4:5;"But to him that WORKETH NOT, but
BELIEVES on him that JUSTIFIES the ungodly, HIS
FAITH is counted for righteousness."

The ungodly is not only people who commit sin, but state of ungodliness is a state adam put us to. Our mediation is continuous.

2cor 5:19;"19 To wit, that God was in Christ, RECONCILING(present-continuous) the world unto himself, NOT IMPUTTING(present-continuous) their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation."

This reconciliation takes place whether you are living rightly or not, by FAITH. WE ARE SUSTAINED BY FAITH.


The greek word for advocate is paraklétos which means intercessor.

Please, you have to note that Jesus' intercession that takes place on our behalf is not only when we do something wrong, but when we do something right as well.

What you have to understand is; how does jesus work as our advocate/intercessor? How does he advocates for us?


Jesus DOES NOT INTERCEED or ADVOCATE FOR US by always begging God the father to accept us but when God sees the faith we have in the punishment Jesus took on our behalf we are mediated, justified and reconciled!!! And this takes place whether we are doing good works or not.

And bear in mind that if we are living rightly, but do not rely on the faith of christ's finished work we are no more reconciled and mediated before God.

How does Jesus' intercession on our behalf works?

To understand how it works you have to know that we were ONCE AND FOR ALL interceded for, when jesus took the position of our sinful nature and FREELY declared us innocent by the faith we have in him and this took place ONCE. Now, by our steadfast faith in the perfect interceding work he did at the cross, we are steadfastly interceded as well in our life.


So, 1john 2:1 is only informing us that when we sin, we should REMEMBER that we have an advocate whose's atoning blood speaks for us both in good doings and bad doings. So that it will be to our notice that we are still justified in him. I am I saying this to promote sin? No, but to promote freedom from condemnation which has been FREELY given to us.

At the end of your no.3 you said this "...we come by faith and repentance."

We don't come by faith, because we are still having our faith(believing). The faith we are saved by is not a religion or right living but an act of BELIEVING on the finished work of christ which STEADFASTLY JUSTIFIES us. So far the person hasn't stopped BELIEVING on the punishment Jesus took for him on his behalf, HE HAS NOT LOST HIS FAITH(believing).

So, in a better way, we don't come by faith rather justification and God's righteousness is STILL IMPUTED on us by the faith we are STILL HAVING in our punishment which he took at the cross.

In the case of repentance, the biblical repentance is "change of mind" and not prayer of forgiveness.

"Repentance of a believer is the recognition that I committed— and changing my mind from works I have to do to stand right with God to STANDING STEADFAST IN BELIEVING WHAT JESUS HAS DONE FOR ME ON MY BEHALF TO ENJOY RIGHT STANDING WITH GOD even without the deed of the law."




4. We are not meant to live a sin-repent vicious life. But even if christians babes who are not yet matured in faith do it, they are justified for the sake of the atoning blood of jesus that was shed on their behalf.


5. In your no.5 I agree with you ,but1john 3:6 is never saying that christians are sinless perfect. Never, as I have potentially talked about that on a separate answer.

Nice post!

To sum up:

Hebrews 7: 25
Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
Hebrews 10:14
For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Gombs:
One can loose his salvation, but not like some folks thin


I believe one can ONLY LOOSE his salvation the same way he got it. If he knowingly rejects Jesus as his Lord with the same mouth he used to confess Jesus as Lord. Atheists knowingly rejects Jesus, in reverting to Islam, you are made to denounce Christ. That to me is a point of no return. (though ot depends too)

I have scriptures to back it up..

If this is possible is another matter. Not all who go to church are ''in faith''.

Image123:

This question more or less feeds logic. We are expected to consider the irrationality of the posit, while in real fact been born again itself defies logic even if once. We die daily, or at least Paul did,[b] so it goes to show that spiritually such a transaction is feasible many times. [/b]It is like bank transactions, they are limitless. It is like metal detection mechanism, it is not about the person or material's innocence but the presence of the metal. Once the metal(sin) is there, the conveyor will stop, or the door will not open. While Jesus abides with us and will never leave us, it is possible for us to leave Him. Rather unfortunately, Jesus is not a possessive spirit like the evil spirits who will possess their victims against their will.

This is laughable. in fact, this question by the O.P (as to the number of times one can be born again) exposes the many lies of Arminianism-the belief that one can lose salvation.

5solas:


This is laughable. in fact, this question by the O.P (as to the number of times one can be born again) exposes the many lies of Arminianism-the belief that one can lose salvation.

Did Demas lose his salvation?

petra1:


Not so. I teach one salvation .

Good!

But there is process . For spirit soul and body

Not exactly so!

That is for the total man . The spirit of man get recreated at receiving christ . The soul or mind is continuously saved by renewal of the word of God . This result in the perfection of the outward man also .

The whole man is saved at justification/salvation/on believing.
If we realize this, the truth leaps out!

Scholar8200:

Did Demas lose his salvation?

On what grounds?

petra1:



A man is saved only once . The Adamic sin nature is replaced with the nature of righteousness . This experience is a once and for all experience . Which Goshen360 calls OSAS. there is difference between sin and sins. Sin (nature) is remitted but sins are forgiven . The new nature of righteousness which was imputed at salvation does not get taken away when a christian commit a sin. He didn't get saved by his perfection and he can't lose it by his imperfections. If he commits a sin , he still retain his nature of righteousness and it's by that nature he receives forguvesnes . None of us is perfect after the flesh . We do err by omission or commission . Judgementalisim is sin , malice is sin , wrong assumption is sin. Gossip is sin .

1 John 1:10
If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

But none of this will take away the nature of God which came as a gift through faith . When a christian admits his sin he recieves forgiveness.

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Good! You are not far from believing in , ''Once saved , always saved'', Eternal Security, Perseverance of the saints, Calvinism!

promise10:


I hope that what you meant by the word "..being saved...and will be saved" is not that we are not saved once and for all?

@Image123, we were saved once at the cross for the reason of christ's sacrifice, which took place ONCE and for ALL.

And our STEADFAST FAITH in what gave us our first salvation, is what KEEPS US SAVED! So, when you say "being saved", that should mean BEING KEPT saved which ONLY happens through FAITH ALONE.

Now, what "..WILL be saved" should mean is that WE WERE saved, WE ARE BEING KEPT saved, so that shall NOT PARTAKE(shall) OF the judgment of hell fire AT THE JUDGEMENT DAY.

And that "..WILL BE saved" is NOT what happens in our life time but what happens on the JUDGEMENT DAY.

Rom 5:9;"9 Much more then, BEING NOW SAVED(justified) by his blood, we shall be SHALL BE SAVED from WRATH through him."

The wrath of God in that context is NOT what happens today, but the wrath of God is on the judgement day that's why we SHALL BE saved from it BECAUSE WE ARE SAVED NOW BY HIS BLOOD.

Today, the wrath of God is NOT now, but shall come on the judgement day. So, if today is not the day of wrath, what is today? 2cor 6:2 answers that!

2cor 6:2;"2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the DAY OF SALVATION have I succoured thee: behold, NOW is the accepted time; BEHOLD, NOW IS THE DAY OF SALVATION.).

Today is not the day of wrath, but the DAY OF SALVATION. God cannot be saving and destroying at the same time. No way!

How someone can use this verse to support lose of salvation as MuttleyLaff did, beats my imagination.

Gombs:


Exactly my thoughts. You simply simplified it.


Now, can you understand how/why Image123 claims one looses his salvation each time he sins and consequently regains it back after forgiveness?

Yes!

Scholar8200:
But what if the 'christian refuses to admit his sin or does so with no purpose of heart to avoid same (2 Corinth 7: 11,10)? Does he remain saved?

Good question!
Before the repentance of the man, if we agree that we only get born again once,he was nonetheless, still born again!
Or wasn't he?

Goshen360:


Yes! He or she remain saved. The GIFTS and CALLING of God are irreversible/irrevocable.

2. The verse you quoted has nothing to do with being saved now, because the same corinthians ARE ALREADY SAVED but was wallowing in sin because of their background and environment.

3. The only thing that can make a christian loose his or her salvation is by denouncing the one he or she is in, that is THE LORD.

4. Sins doesn't UNBORN AGAIN a Christian. Sin and sacrifice for sins had been dealt with and paid once and for all times. When Christ returns, he's not returning to come deal with sins or sacrifice for sins no more....SAYS THE WORD OF GOD.

5. Ask yourself, does every sin or sins you committed but didn't even know it was a sin UNBORN AGAIN you?

6. Paul, didn't pamper the sins of the corinthians and we are not supposed to pamper sins in the church of Christ but Paul NEVER implied the Corinthians loose their salvation because of sin and later regained it back, rather he was hard on them and they REPENTED....that's what the verse you quoted is talking about.

7. The word "save, salvation, saved" are used to mean different meaning within its context. You cannot just lift bible verse from its context just because it mentioned save, saved or salvation, you have to follow the contextual meaning. That's one of the damages or error Image123 committed in his first response.

Good one! A lot of believers are yet to grasp the meaning of Paul when he says we are not saved by the law/works.
They believe that statement is only true before our believing. After we have believed, we must keep the law/commandments or we will not be saved !

Gombs:


Standing ovation.


Wonderful piece!

I concur!

I'm thinking, what kind of father will disown his child because he stole sweets, and then reclaim him after the child has apologized, and keeps doing so, for how long?

Knowing fully well that the Bible said foolishness abounds in the heart of a child.

The Corinthians and galatians were never said to have lost their salvation despite their shortfalls, for the ONLY WAY one can loose their salvation is the same way he got it - with his confession of mouth, denouncing the lordship of Christ.

Some folks here are sounding like God's waiting to catch us do wrong, then he'd keep record of it, waiting for pay back time.

Brethren, God has settled the issue of sin in Jesus, since... And He has no issue with fixing it. Why He doesn't want us to sin is because we'd expose ourselves to the working of devils. He so loves us and wouldn't want the devil to have party time with us (kill, steal and destroy) , but we regardless sometimes fall off. That never means he revokes our SONSHIP, meaning we'd loose our very righteous nature given us by Jesus, pending when we ask for forgiveness. That doesn't make sense at all.

The issue of sin is between the one who commits the sin, his conscience and the devil. God isn't bothered about sin, His laws and justice will however not be compromised.

Indeed some believe we are not yet saved , that our performance of good works determine our salvation.

Image123:


Thinking hardly helps progress in spiritual matters. thinking makes many an atheist. When your understanding of God is based MORE on thinking, you will not get it. fact.

*Shakes head in disbelief*
We need to think to handle the word of God properly, interpreting scripture with scripture. The Scripture uses a lot of thinking/logic/reasoning to instruct us.
Rom. 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Rom. 8:

31 ¶ What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

1 John 4:20

If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

Thinking/logic/reasoning is only wrong when it questions what is revealed in the Word.

MuttleyLaff:
I cannot believe reading you too making another generalised remark in this manner and especially an unguarded one in regards to thinking
What were you thinking or werent thinking, pun not intended
Maybe you meant doing thinking a wrong way or going about thinking the wrong way, hardly helps progress in spiritual matters

An unthinking person believes everything, but the prudent one thinks before acting
- Proverbs 14:15 ISV

Apart from Proverbs 14:15 above, God in Joshua 1:8, advises Joshua to mediate (i.e. think deeply) on ''spiritual matters''
King David in Psalm 119:15, said he mediates (i.e. reflects or thinks) on God's guiding principles and studies His ways
In Psalm 119:97, King David says, he so much love God's instructions he thinks about them all day long.

Does anyone discuss, argue or reason without thinking?
Thinking is acceptable, allowable, permitted or tolerable.
God in Isaiah 1:18, throws down the gauntlet with an invitation to THINK

The bible in Proverbs 4:5, says, get wisdom (i.e. get skillful at making good and right decisions), get understanding (i.e know the why, the how, the when etc)
Further on the bible persist in talking about wisdom, again, in Proverbs 4:7 that, wisdom is the principal thing (i.e. the summit); therefore get wisdom: and with all your getting get understanding

What can wisdom be if not something borne out from sensible or wise thinking
How does one make considered decisions over matters or come to sensible conclusions over issues, if not by, after or from thinking
Dead or alive, (i.e. dead in a parable or alive on earth) thinking of some or any sort is done

Now Image, if what you were on about is that, foolish thinking hardly helps progress in spiritual matters, then I am 120% gidigba-no-shaking with and behind you

If the bible in 1 Thessalonians 5:21 says, prove all things and hold fast that which is good
then how you'll going to prove things without critical thoughts about them

Am sure Image123, you arent one of those who associate enquiring minds' investigative and/or critical thinking with skepticism and criticism

Good thinking!

5solas:

Good!

Not exactly so!
The whole man is saved at justification/salvation/on believing.
If we realize this, the truth leaps out!

Is the body born again?

Is the mind born again?

petra1:


Is the body born again?

Yes!

Is the mind born again?

Yes!

When the Bible tells us we are saved, if a part of us is excepted, it would have clearly said so.
Being born again equals salvation, by the way!

Truly there is eternal security in Christ only when we abide in him.
When a man becomes bornagain he has a new nature but also his old nature is still there. He can now choose to walk in the spirit or in the flesh. As long as he walks in the spirit he is eternally secure but if he walks in the flesh he will die there is no eternal security there even if he shout Jesus finished work from now till tomorrow it won't help him until he repents and obey the spirit of Christ.
Anytime we sin it means we are walking in the flesh and if we die like that or judgement met us in that state, we will be judged like the rest of the world.
God has played his part by giving us a new nature but you av to play your part by continue in that or else ...you will fall short of his grace
Pedlars of false gospel teaches that Christians who walk in the flesh in as much as they were saved are still saved that's a satanic lie Ezekiel said if a man was righteous before and he stopped being righteous, God will not remember his righteousness but only his present evil. same thing for a wicked man
Jesus didn't die for you to continue in sin but for you to reflect his righteousness.

REMEMBER
ANY FAITH THAT CANNOT KEEP YOU FROM COMMITTING SIN CANNOT SAVE YOU FROM HELL FIRE!!!

5solas:
How someone can use this verse to support lose of salvation as MuttleyLaff did, beats my imagination.

I dont follow, you quoted promise10
but then said: How someone can use this verse to support lose of salvation as MuttleyLaff beats your imagination.

I dont seem to understand why or what MuttleyLaff has done wrong

5solas:

When the Bible tells us we are saved, if a part of us is excepted, it would have clearly said so.
Being born again equals salvation, by the way!

Salvation was wrought only in the spirit . The soul salvation is progressive . The body salvation will be the end result in immortality . For now the body is unsaved . It's still mortal . The salvation of the body is glorification and immortality

Scholar8200:

Remember Jesus Words:

But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;

49 and shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;

50 [size=14pt]the lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

51 and shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
[/size]
Matthew 24:48 - 51


Concerning being saved by faith and losing salvation these words are apposite for consideration:

19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21 [size=14pt]for if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee[/size].

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
Roman 11:19-23

If we do not abide in the True Vine and instead of bearing fruit of the Spirit, are bearing the works of the flesh, the Husbandman will definitely cut us off! He is able to graft us in if we repent and return!

You can't just stop amazing me! What you wrote here is still nailing you!


Matt 24:48-51
48 But if that evil slave says in his heart, ‘My master is not coming for a long time,’
49 and begins to beat his fellow slaves and eat and drink with drunkards;
50 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know,
51 and will cut him in pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites; in that
place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."


The above verses you quoted is very clear PARABLE!

Let's study those verses:


Point 1: in vs 48, mark these words; "But if that EVIL SLAVE says in his heart, 'My master IS NOT coming FOR A LONG TIME',". Jesus in the first sentence shows us that the man was not a good slave who later turn to evil slave for doing something wrong. Rather, he shows us that the man was an EVIL SLAVE from the start, who has been pretending to be God's servant, hence, a hypocrite. No wonder Jesus said he will assign the EVIL SLAVE a place with the HYPOCRITES. Why? Because the evil servant was a hypocrite!

Point 2: vs 48; and in his hypocritical mind he was saying in his heart that his master is not come for a long time. For him to really say this shows that he was DEFINITELY OUT OF FAITH(not good works but believing). His mind is now telling him that the second coming of the lord is a MERE JOKE. And by that he has fallen from BELIEVING(faith alone).

Point 3: in vs 49. And because he has fallen from the faith of christ which is the source of our righteousness, jesus says, he begins to PUNISH(beat) his fellow slaves and eat and drink with drunkards. For him to start to PUNISH his fellow slaves means that he has REALLY FALLEN FROM THE FAITH OF CHRIST. And as such, NO MORE A CHRISTIAN IN ALL ASPECT(faith alone)!!!

The above points explain the rest of the verse.

PLEASE READ THE BELOW VERSES, IT IS REVEALING!!!

Roman 11:19-23
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; BECAUSE OF UNBELIEF(not believing) they were broken off, and thou standest BY FAITH(alone). Be not highminded, but fear:
21 for if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide NOT STILL IN UNBELIEF(that is, if they start to believe again), shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again."


The above verses you quoted ignorantly is another proof from you that shows that the ONLY thing that can make a believer to loose his salvation is UNBELIEF and not sin.

What is unbelief? The greek word for unbelief is "apistia" which means lack/absence of faith, not believing in the Gospel!

YOUR WORDS:"If we do not abide in the True Vine and instead of bearing fruit of the Spirit, are bearing the works of the flesh, the Husbandman will definitely cut us off! He is able to graft us in if we repent and return!"

The above statement is a CROSS-LESS gospel!!!!!

The true vine is Jesus, and one can ONLY ABIDE in him through FAITH ALONE(believing even without works) in what Jesus did at the cross ON HIS BEHALF.

Abiding in christ IS NOT BY RIGHT DOING but through BELIEVING(faith alone) IN YOUR PUNISHMENT OF SIN WHICH JESUS TOTALLY PAID FOR AT THE CROSS ON YOUR BEHALF. Everybody can do good, and no one is perfect in doing Good, in otherwords, doing good does not make a christian an abiding believer.

I believe that everybody who is a christian has the fruit of the spirit by the virtue of his faith in the finished work of christ because the fruit of the holyspirit is NOT what we ESTABLISH, it is a FREE GIFT we receive from the spirit of God through faith, which MANIFESTS when we live. And when we err(doesn't manifest), it doesn't mean that we are not saved or that we don't have the fruit of the spirit.

Eph 1:3;"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath BLESSED us with ALL SPIRITUAL BLESSINGS(fruits, gifts, privileges) in heavenly places in Christ:"

That I am angry at someone today doesn't mean that I don't have love, but the problem is that I didn't manifest LOVE which is one of the fruit of holyspirit which has been given to me at salvation through the faith of christ.

That I didn't have patience with someone today does not mean, that I don't have patience as a fruit in me, because MOST TIMES it clearly manifests, but just that I was mindless to allow it manifest. It is really a sin, but it doesn't unsave us because the salvation we received is a FREE GIFT that doesn't function on the basis of "how patient one is". If abstinence from sin doesn't give salvation, the other way round does not take away salvation. But, if accepting and believing the gospel of the grace of christ gives salvation, ONLY rejecting and disbelieving the gospel of grace of christ can take it away.

That I committed sin today, DOES NOT mean that I don't love God. Otherwise, NOBODY LOVES GOD, since the whole world is STILL GUILTY before law of God. God knows I DO LOVE HIM even when I am not too good enough in attitudes, because he searches and knows my HEART.

The above verses you quoted to support yourself is evident to us that UNBELIEF(not relying and trusting) and not sin, is what can make us cut off!


In conclusion, this shows us that what can ONLY make us to be cut off is UNBELIEF in what God through christ has done for us ON OUR BEHALF.

Scholar8200:
Now the just shall live by faith: [size=14pt]but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him[/size]. 39 But we are not of them who [size=14pt]draw back unto perdition[/size]; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul
Hebrews 10:38,39

Here we see that a person who once believed and backslides to his life of sin, wallowing in its mire shall perish.




20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
( MEANING THEY WERE ACTUALLY SAVED!!!)

21[b] For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them[/b]
(THEY FAILED, BY GRACE, TO WALK IN HOLINESS OF LIFE!!!)
2 Peter 2:20,21




Cease, my son, to hear the instruction
that causeth to err from the words of knowledge.
[/b]Proverbs 19:27

There are doctrines/instructions that causes people to err!!! Christ died to make us a Glorious Church not having spot nor wrinkle, This should be our pursuit!!!





If the lady called Jezebel was never at a time a true believer as one here claims what should be said about Demas, that he never believed?

Consider:
24 Marcus, Aristarchus, [size=14pt]Demas... my fellow labourers[/size]. Philemon 1:24

Afterwards:

[b]for Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world,
2 Timothy 4:10a

Once a fellow-labourer with no less than Paul but later backslid and became an enemy of God! Why? he loved the world and Bible plainly says:

Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
James 4:4

Now, did Demas retain his salvation?

I fault your understanding over heb 10:38-39 as a shameful understanding and misinterpretation of God's word.

Heb 10:38-39;
38 And,“But MY(jesus') RIGHTEOUS one will live by faith. And I take no pleasure in the one who shrinks back.”
39 But we do not belong to those who shrink back and are destroyed, but to those who have faith and are saved.

In the above verses, the hebrew writer was trying to make us understand that we are righteous before God by JESUS' PERSONAL RIGHTEOUSNESS through faith and NOT by OUR ESTABLISH righteousness(good works) which comes through obedience to the law of righteousness.

Phil 3:9;"and may be found in Him [believing and relying on Him], NOT HAVING ANY RIGHTEOUSNESS OF MY OWN(works of righteousness) DERIVED FROM [my obedience to] THE LAW and its rituals, BUT [possessing] that [genuine righteousness] which comes through FAITH IN CHRIST, the righteousness
which comes from God on the BASIS OF FAITH."

Now, in that same heb 10:8-39, the writer goes on to say that God will have no pleasure in anyone who shrinks back. You failed a big time here by thinking that shrinking back means sin, as if believers had EVER become sinless perfect. Please, stop that FRAUD and LIES!!! Claiming sinless perfection is a LIE AND FRAUD against oneself, God, the scriptures and finally the FAILED human nature!!!

If shrinking back means sin, it means that so far we all are NOT sinless perfect in our works, then we all have shrinked back long ago!!!

Why is it so difficult to believe that "shrinking back" means having UNBELIEF in what gives us salvation? We received salvation by FAITH ALONE and not good works, how can we shrink back on the basis of bad work where we first started by faith alone without good works? What role exactly does good works have to play on our salvation? This will only end us in the FOOLISHNESS OF THE GALATIANS!!!

Gal 3:1-4; "1 O FOOLISH GALATIANS, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law of righteousness , or by the HEARING OF FAITH?
3 ARE YE SO FOOLISH? having begun in the Spirit,
4 are ye now made perfect by the HUMAN EFFORT(flesh through right living)?
5 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain."

So, in that heb verse, it is certain that since we started and are living by jesus' righteousness through FAITH, we can only shrink back by the faith that saved us.

In conclusion, God shall have no pleasure in him, who will withdraw through UNBELIEF, that is, rejecting and unbelieving the finished work of christ.

Scholar8200:
Now the just shall live by faith: [size=14pt]but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him[/size]. 39 But we are not of them who [size=14pt]draw back unto perdition[/size]; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul
Hebrews 10:38,39

Here we see that a person who once believed and backslides to his life of sin, wallowing in its mire shall perish.




20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
( MEANING THEY WERE ACTUALLY SAVED!!!)

21[b] For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them[/b]
(THEY FAILED, BY GRACE, TO WALK IN HOLINESS OF LIFE!!!)
2 Peter 2:20,21




Cease, my son, to hear the instruction
that causeth to err from the words of knowledge.
[/b]Proverbs 19:27

There are doctrines/instructions that causes people to err!!! Christ died to make us a Glorious Church not having spot nor wrinkle, This should be our pursuit!!!





If the lady called Jezebel was never at a time a true believer as one here claims what should be said about Demas, that he never believed?

Consider:
24 Marcus, Aristarchus, [size=14pt]Demas... my fellow labourers[/size]. Philemon 1:24

Afterwards:

[b]for Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world,
2 Timothy 4:10a

Once a fellow-labourer with no less than Paul but later backslid and became an enemy of God! Why? he loved the world and Bible plainly says:

Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
James 4:4

Now, did Demas retain his salvation?

How you sounded towards 2peter 2:20-21 cannot be explained with words! So ignorant!

What do you mean by "holiness of life"? Right living? So even atheists who live rightly are walking in the holiness of life?
You must be a joke! The holiness of life is NOT right living/good works, but Jesus the son of God. Jesus is the righteousness and holiness of God. Anyone who believes in jesus' sacrifice, his faith will be counted for holiness and righteousness. Because, it is not about good works, it is a FREE gift by grace on the basis of faith alone.

2 Peter 2:20,21; "20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them."

If you can simply read those verses up there with a faith alone mentality, you will understand what the bible is saying there.

How did they escape the pollution of this world? By right living?? NEVER!!!! Why? Because there are people who are not even christians but they live rightly and do good works, does it mean they have escaped the pollution of this world?? NEVER!!! Anyone who says otherwise must be from the devil!

Right living/good works does not make you escape from pollution(works of the devil), rather it is the KNOWLEDGE OF OUR SAVIOUR Jesus Christ. What is the knowledge of A SAVIOUR all about? That Jesus SAVES freely by grace through faith alone!!!

This is still pointing to the fact that a christian can ONLY be entangled back to the pollution of this world when he STOPS believing on him who justifies the UNGODLY, who took the punishment of his sins(past, present and future). If he is STEADFASTLY believing on him who justifies the ungodly, his faith will be STEADFASTLY counted for righteousness and his sins shall be covered, because it has been ONCE and FOR ALL judged, convicted and punished on christ. So God can never punish us for the sins he punished on himself through christ. That's why it is called free grace! (If it vex you, then I guess you are of the devil!)

So, we escaped the pollution by the knowledge of what Jesus has done for us, on our behalf, through grace which we receive by FAITH ALONE. And we can ONLY entangle back because of UNBELIEF on what he has done for us on our behalf!

In vs 21, the writer says;"21 For it had been better for them not to have known the WAY OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them."

The mistake you normally make is that, you are calling GOD'S PERSONAL RIGHTEOUSNESS to be OUR right living, which I have being trying to dispute HEAVILY on my previous comments. What does the writer of hebrew mean by the "way of righteousness"? Right living/good works? NEVER!!! Anybody can live rightly notwithstanding the person's background, but doesn't mean that the person is on the way of righteousness.

Righteousness/holiness itself is a person(jesus) according to 1cor 1:30.

1cor 1:30: AMP "But it is from Him that you are in Christ Jesus, WHO BECAME TO US wisdom from God [revealing His plan of salvation], and RIGHTEOUSNESS [MAKING US ACCEPTABLE to God], and HOLINESS [MAKING US HOLY and setting us apart for God], and redemption [PROVIDING OUR RANSOM FROM THE PENALTY OF SIN]"

The righteousness and holiness of God is NOT right living(good works) rather, it is a FREE GIFT that is ACCOUNTED to us FREELY in the person of Jesus by FREE GRACE through our FAITH in our penalty of sins past, present and future which Jesus laid upon himself WILLINGLY on OUR BEHALF. Any otherwise gospel must be a cross-less one, as such- a heresy.

Therefore, knowing the way of righteousness is by believing in the atonement of sin done at the cross ON OUR BEHALF. And when this is done, christ becomes our righteousness for there. So, this shows that turning away from the way of righteousness(jesus) means having the UNBELIEF of Jesus who is OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. By that, the person is NO MORE a christian OUT OF UNBELIEF and not sin because Jesus has taken the punishment of his sins.

In vs 21, peter said this at the end; "....to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them".

What holy commandment was peter talking about? 10 commandment? NOO!!!

The 10 commandments together with the 630 laws of moses has been ABOLISHED. To promote sin? No, but to give us freedom from condemnation and curse of the law! The law is righteous, just and holy, but YET couldn't help and instead of giving us righteousness and justification, it ended up being a source of condemnation to us. Then, because of that Jesus abolished it on his flesh by taking it out of the way and nailing it to the cross.

Col 2:14; "Because we BROKE GOD'S LAWS, we owed a debt—a debt that listed all the RULES we failed to follow. But God forgave us of that debt. He took IT(rules and debts) away and NAILED(abolished) it to the cross.

Eph 2:15; "BY ABOLISHING THE LAW OF COMMANDMENT expressed in ordinances(laws), that he might create in
himself one new man in place of the
two, so making peace,"

So peter was not talking about the ABOLISHED law of commandment which centres on good works ALONE and NOT faith. Because there is NO relationship between law and faith!

Gal 3:12; "But the LAW DOES NOT REST ON FAITH [DOES NOT REQUIRE FAITH, HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH FAITH], for it itself says, He who does them [the things prescribed by the Law] shall live by them [NOT BY FAITH]." AMPC

Rather, he was talking about the COMMANDMENT OF CHRIST which is CENTRED ON FAITH ALONE.

What is the commandment of christ? 1john 3:23 answers that!

1john 3:23; "This is HIS COMMANDMENT, that WE BELIEVE [with PERSONAL FAITH and CONFIDENT trust] in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and [that we unselfishly] love and seek the best for one another, just as He commanded us.

His commandment says that we should BELIEVE in him, because our faith ALONE in him gives us eternal life. Then because, we have seen clearly the love of God for us; that love makes us to unselfishly love people around us.

WE DON'T LOVE PEOPLE TO RECEIVE ETERNAL LIFE, WE BELIEVE IN HIM TO RECEIVE THE GIFT OF ETERNAL LIFE!! And because he loves us, we love people back and do good works that are profitable to men around us. That's what grace can do!

So, peter was talking about the holy commandment of christ which is centred on FAITH ALONE.

Stay in grace alone!

Scholar8200:
Now the just shall live by faith: [size=14pt]but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him[/size]. 39 But we are not of them who [size=14pt]draw back unto perdition[/size]; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul
Hebrews 10:38,39

Here we see that a person who once believed and backslides to his life of sin, wallowing in its mire shall perish.




20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
( MEANING THEY WERE ACTUALLY SAVED!!!)

21[b] For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them[/b]
(THEY FAILED, BY GRACE, TO WALK IN HOLINESS OF LIFE!!!)
2 Peter 2:20,21




Cease, my son, to hear the instruction
that causeth to err from the words of knowledge.
[/b]Proverbs 19:27

There are doctrines/instructions that causes people to err!!! Christ died to make us a Glorious Church not having spot nor wrinkle, This should be our pursuit!!!





If the lady called Jezebel was never at a time a true believer as one here claims what should be said about Demas, that he never believed?

Consider:
24 Marcus, Aristarchus, [size=14pt]Demas... my fellow labourers[/size]. Philemon 1:24

Afterwards:

[b]for Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world,
2 Timothy 4:10a

Once a fellow-labourer with no less than Paul but later backslid and became an enemy of God! Why? he loved the world and Bible plainly says:

Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
James 4:4

Now, did Demas retain his salvation?

You quoted proverb 19:27; to make you cover up, since you feel like the heresy of your "another gospel" is being exposed! Try harder next time!

Please, how does the gospel of grace make us to err? The gospel of grace preaches; CHRIST CRUCIFIED FOR THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD. Do you mean that God's purpose for punishing jesus for our sins(present, past and future) at the cross is to PROMOTE SIN? Okay, had it been that Jesus didn't take the punishment of our sins(present, past and future), sin will become less? But now he took our punishment, sin is being promoted? YOU MUST BE A JOKE!!!

YOU SAID THIS(out of your ignorance);"There are doctrines/instructions that causes people to err!!! Christ died to make us a Glorious Church not having spot nor wrinkle, This should be our pursuit!!!"

I know you are thinking that whenever this DEEP TRUTH of the cross is UNVEILED, it will cause people to sin, hence a licence to sin. But, the truth is that NOBODY NEEDS A LICENCE TO ENABLE HIM TO SIN. Even before the first day you heard this grace teaching, you have been sinning from birth. Sir, if I may ask, WHO GAVE YOU THE LICENCE YOU USED TO SIN BEFORE you ever heard the gospel of grace?? Licence to sin is inherited by EVERYBODY from birth and is revived through law and not the preaching of grace!

So, stop deceiving the church, trying to cover and hide the salvation truth of the cross, thinking that it can stop sin. As a matter of fact, if you can be sincere with yourself, you can bear me witness that you STILL sin up till now. Am not saying whether you ask for forgiveness or not. And the worse part of it, is that you will still jump on pulpit claiming sinless perfection. THIS A FRAUDLENT FRAUD!!!!

WE WILL NOT USE BECAUSE OF FEAR OF SIN TO HIDE THE SALVATION TRUTH FROM THE CHURCH, BECAUSE SIN HAS BEEN EVEN WHEN GRACE WAS ABSENT. That's why jesus came and took it's punishment for EVERY MAN.

Yes! Christ died to make us a glorious church not having spot nor wrinkle. Nobody is disputing that, in fact, that is the summary of his finished work!
But the problem is, what do you mean by glorious church? How did he die to make us the glorious church? How are we not having wrinkle and spot? By being 100% perfect in good works? Are you 100% perfect?

The glorious church are not sinless perfect people! So far, NO ONE is 100% perfect in works, It is FRAUD to yourself to think that you are perfect!

The glorious church are people whose sins have been JUSTIFIED, FORGIVEN FOR THE SAKE OF CHRIST'S DEATH ON OUR BEHALF and have received the IMPUTATION OF THE FREE GIFT of God's personal righteousness(jesus) which has been FREELY given by grace which we receive FREELY by faith ALONE.

Jesus died to make us glorious church by taking the punishment of our sins for us ON OUR BEHALF, and by that gives us freely, the gift of God's personal righteousness.

How are we without wrinkle and spot? We are not without wrinkle or spot by being 100% perfect in everything we do! Else, since nobody is perfect in good works, everybody will be heading to hell, but that's not so!

We are now without wrinkle and spot DESPITE our mistakes and wrongs, because Jesus came and took the punishment of our wrinkle, wrongs, mistakes and spots. And by that, our spots and wrinkle are now appease, and now we look wrinkless and spotless before God. Because we are 100% perfect in right living? No, no one is perfect!! But, because the punishment we deserve for it has been laid and punished on christ. That's why it is called FREE GRACE! *the devil is really in trouble, hahahahahaha*

In addition, Jesus didn't make us a glorious church by WE possessing 100% perfection in the works of righteousness which we were forewarned that it doesn't save or keep us saved. But, he made us a glorious church by declaring and imputting his FREE GIFT of righteousness on us FREELY at the cross, hence making us a glorious church !!

In conclusion, we don't do good works to become a glorious church, rather we do good works BECAUSE he has FREELY made us glorious church.


Stay in grace!!