| Points To Ponder Upon-Non-Muslims Especially Atheists And Christians! by Demmzy15(m): 12:43pm On Jul 31, 2016 |
I saw this article(it's kinda of long, so take your time), it's still in progress. It's debunking the articles of "wikiislam", so I decided to copy this section because it makes alot of sense. A quick reminder for Muslims and also something for atheist, pagans, Christians etc to ponder upon. Please notice the emphasis, they're very important!
There are 2 fundamental principles underlying Islam. These principles highlight the base of Islam! The principles that must be applied are that:
1.) The Quran must be clear so that it compels those whose hearts are open, but it must be sufficiently vague so it doesn't compel those whose hearts are closed (or unwilling to believe).
2.) The Quran is meant for all times and places, therefore, it must logically follow that it must support 7th century belief and modern belief simultaneously without contradicting either belief.
3.) The Quran's language is in Arabic. Arabic is a rich language which allows for multiple valid translations. Therefore the Quran maintains multiple valid translations. If you think there is a contradiction in the Quran, you must ask yourself:
#Have I made any unverified assumptions?
#Have I considered all possible definitions of the words?
#Have I considered all possible translations of the words?
#Have I considered all grammatical syntactic definitions/renderings?
Explaining the first principle
"The Quran must be clear so that it compels those whose hearts are open, but it must be sufficiently vague so it doesn't compel those whose hearts are closed (or unwilling to believe)"
It is absolutely important to note that there is no full complete physical proof of Allah's existence. Many Atheists see this as proof that God doesn't exist and therefore they make that assertion. Contrary to their beliefs, Islam has an answer:
Life is like a multiple choice exam. If you pick the wrong choices throughout the exam, you will be punished. If you pick the right choices throughout the exam, you will be rewarded! The exam is going to be very difficult and it will have many tricks in it to test you. If the Quran or the universe were presented with clear, 100% proof of certainty in God's existence, then everyone believes in the Quran and in God. It would be like the professor decides to give you the answers to the exam. The whole point of your existence is to not have 100% proof of certainty that Allah exists.
What is necessary to pass the test?
1.) Belief in God and the oneness of God
2.) Belief that God's final revelation onto mankind is the Quran
3.) Adhering to the laws and duties put forth by the Quran
You must believe in God and you must believe the Quran is the word of God. That is how you pass the test. Allah will not give you proof of his existence nor will he give you complete proof that the Quran is from him, because if he had done so, it would violate your purpose in life. (Note: The third necessary item requires that you believe in God and the Quran being his word).
A good professor is one that does not give you the answers to the exam, rather, the professor provides you with the tools and information and lets you analyze, interpret and apply that information to reach a conclusion on the exam question! If the professor were to give you the answers to the exam, it would violate the purpose of the exam. If Allah were to give you proof of his existence it would violate your purpose in life-to worship Allah without proof of his existence. Instead, he gives signs and hints that point to his existence!
Therefore it must logically follow that those signs and hints must not clearly prove with complete certainty the existence of Allah or that the Quran is from him, rather they must hint at the existence of God and the Quran. And those signs and hints, must therefore be sufficient to that it compels those whose hearts are open, but they must be sufficiently vague so they doesn't compel those whose hearts are unwilling.
Quranic Analysis Corresponding to the first principle:
(Quran 76:3) Verily, We created man from a drop of mingled sperm so that We may test him;
(Quran 67:2) [Allah is he] Who created death and life to test you [as to] which of you is best in deed.
(Quran 29:2) Do the people think that they will be left to say, "We believe" and they will not be tested?
We are created so that we get tested and to see how well we would be obedient to Allah:
(Quran 51:56) And I did not create the jinn and mankind except to worship/be obedient to Me.
^Out of ALL of Allah's creations, we were created with the purpose to worship Allah (other creatures may have different purposes). So if the purpose of our creation is to be tested, and Allah proves his existence to everyone: Then everyone passes the test. It would be like a college professor giving you the answers to the exam--What's the point of the exam?
Further, the Quran highlights how people were asking the prophet for proof of God and Allah has refused. Instead, Allah points the disbelievers at a sign and asks them to reflect:
Perhaps, [O Muhammad], you would kill yourself with grief that they will not be believers. If We willed, We could send down to them from the sky a sign for which their necks would be forced to bow. And no revelation/signs comes to them anew from the Most Merciful except that they turn away from it. For they have already denied, but there will come to them the news of that which they used to ridicule. Did they not look at the earth - how much We have produced therein from every noble kind? Indeed in that is a sign, but most of them were not to be believers. Qur'an 26:3-8
^In here you have a case in which Allah reassures the prophet Muhammad to stop grieving because people disbelieve. Allah could have sent a strong piece of evidence or proof of his existence, but Allah says that he only sends signs and that those signs are not meant to make everyone believe and worship Allah. Then Allah points them to a sign of his existence-not complete proof.
The signs are there for those who think, ponder and wish to surrender to such a formidable force. While those who do not wish to obey, they are given their excuses to keep themselves aloof a satisfaction. Notice how the Quran is vague and indirect on this topic. The Quran didn't directly specify why Allah refuses to give us proof he exists, rather, he chooses to only give signs of his existence. The Quran lets the reader apply and interpret this information to reach a conclusion (remember, life is a test-an intellectual journey). A good professor does not give you the direct information needed to pass the exam, rather, he gives you bits and pieces of different information and allows you to analyze and interpret that information to reach a conclusion in the thought provoking exam question. If Allah were to directly give you his reason as to why he refuses to give proof of himself, then it would the test easy for humans. The test is not designed to be easy. Allah allows those who are sincerely searching for truth to interpret, apply and analyze this information in the Quran to reach a reasonable conclusion. Allah also simultaneously allows those who are arrogant, intellectually dishonest or not looking for truth to have their excuses and reasons to reject Allah and the Quran. This is also analogous to how a professor designs the exam (with the right difficulty) so that it allows those who studied well in getting the right answers and simultaneously allows those who didn't study well in getting the wrong answers to the thought-provoking questions.
Edkip Yuksel has said: "In order for any test to be valid, the receiver of the test must have the option of different choices. If the receiver had no choice there would be no test. The choice of the receiver determines his success or failure in the test that has been set. As an example, suppose you would like to test your 6 year old son and see whether he will obey you or not. You take him to his room and ask him not to leave the room. You leave the door open so he is given the choice whether to obey you and stay, or to disobey you and leave the room. The fact that you have given him two choices: the good (obey you), and the bad (disobey you) means that there was indeed a valid test. Now let us suppose you have done the same as above but this time you locked the door. In this case your son does not have the option of disobeying you. You come back after one hour and find him still inside the room, but this time, was he really tested? The answer is no, because your son had no option of disobeying you, and thus he had no choice.When we import this logic to the multi-meaning verses in the Quran, we find that among various other ways God has tested us, one test is by deliberately including the multi-meaning verses in the Quran."
In 3:7 we read:
(Quran 3:7) He sent down to you this scripture, containing straightforward verses - which constitute the essence of the scripture - as well as multiple-meaning or allegorical verses. Those who have perversity in their hearts will pursue the multiple-meaning verses to create confusion, and to extricate a certain meaning.
The ones who are honest are those who apply the Quranic verses to reach a reasonable conclusion, and then there are the ones who's hearts are perverse will abuse these multi-meaning verses to create confusion. Therefore, the verses in the Quran are a deliberate test set by God.
In conclusion, the Quran explicitly states that Allah refuses to give proof of his existence and rather he wants humans to reflect upon the signs he has given to choose whether or not to worship Allah. In which case, it would be required, In order to maintain the structure of the test, for the signs to be clear so that it compels those whose hearts are open, but they must be sufficiently vague so it doesn't compel those whose hearts are closed (or unwilling to believe). A good analogy would be a professor giving you hints and information on the exam that don't reveal the answer to the exam for those who didn't study, but sufficiently guides those who truly studied in getting the right answer.
Side notes: The test which we are to undergo is not meant to add to the knowledge of God. Although God knows everything, it still is necessary that all men and women be put to test so that the true form of God's justice and mercy may emerge on the Day of Judgement. If God were to send all persons to Paradise or Hell according to His own knowledge without putting them to test for their beliefs and deeds, then those sent to Hell could rightly complain that why were they being punished without any sin on their part while others enjoyed bliss of Paradise without any good deed in their credit? So in order to uphold the principle of justice and fairness, it was necessary for God to test all persons before sending them to Hell or Paradise. |
| Re: Points To Ponder Upon-Non-Muslims Especially Atheists And Christians! by Demmzy15(m): 12:44pm On Jul 31, 2016 |
Explaining the second principle
The general Idea is that it would be illogical to expect the Quran to give you direct answers to the world because if it did, it would contradict the beliefs of those who lived in the 7th century. For example, the common belief at that time is that the Earth was flat. If the Quran had told them that the Earth was actually round, they would have ridiculed the Quran because according to their observations the Earth is clearly flat. If the Quran had told them that the Earth is flat, it would have supported their beliefs, but it would contradict our beliefs. So it is a requirement for the Quran to be vague enough in its natural descriptions so that it doesn’t contradict both 7th century belief and modern belief.
The Quran is meant for all times and places. The Quran supports 7th century belief and modern belief simultaneously without contradicting either belief.
Analysis of the Quran’s timelessness:
It was stated earlier that the Quran doesn’t give direct answers to questions, rather, it allows the reader to interpret the indirect Quran in light of other Quranic verses and to reach a conclusion. The Quran did not directly tell you it was timeless. Its timeless nature should be the conclusion that follows from an interpretation of the Quran.
According to the Quran, the Prophet Muhammad is the final prophet for humans.
[Quran 33:40] Muhammad is not the father of [any] one of your men, but [he is] the Messenger of Allah and last of the prophets. And ever is Allah , of all things, Knowing.
If the prophet Muhammad was the final prophet for humans, then no more prophets would be coming.
Further the Quran reveals that prophets come down with scripture:
[Quran 2:213] Mankind was one community and Allah sent Prophets with glad tidings and warnings, and with them He sent the Scripture
If the prophet Muhammad was the last prophet, then he is the last one who comes down with scripture. This means that no new scripture will come. It must follow then, that the Quran is timeless as it must be relevant to the people at the Prophet Muhammad’s time and it must be relevant to modern times.
The Quran claims to be timeless, but, is the Quran timeless? The dynamics of the Quran and some examples will be discussed to reveal the Quranic timelessness.
The mechanism of the Quran’s timeless nature:
The Quran maintains its timeless nature by verse applicability. For example, there are verses that address only the prophet Muhammad, there are verses that address only men, there are verses that address only women, and there are verses that address people of the future. This allows the Quran to be relevant to everyone. There are certain laws that women follow that men don’t and vice-versa.
This is an example of a verse that was not applicable to the prophet himself, but it is applicable to the people of the future:
[Quran 55:33] O assembly of the jinn and the men! If you are able to pass through the regions of the heavens and the earth, then pass through..
The above verse is a direct commandment to us in modern times to travel through space. This verse was not applicable to the Prophet Muhammad himself, but it is applicable to us now.
The Quran maintains this timeless and universal nature through giving out multiple verses with varying applicability so that it is relevant for all humans at all times and places.
Timeless interpretations of the Quran:
It has been described earlier that the Quran must be vague for two reasons. One that has been discussed in detail earlier is that it must not provide complete certainty in the existence of God. The other reason is that the Quran must support 7th century belief and modern belief without contradicting either belief. This is a requirement because the Quran is timeless. But, does the Quran live up to that requirement?
The short answer is yes. The Quran’s vagueness gives it its ability to be timeless. Here is an example:
[Quran 21:33]And He it is who has created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon, each in an orbit floating.
magine this verse has said that they are in an orbit floating around the earth. This would be a case in which the Quran supports 7th century belief but contradicts modern belief. Those words were conveniently not placed there so that the Quran maintains its timeless nature.
Does this verse support 7th century belief that the Sun and the Moon travel around the Earth: Yes
Does this verse support modern belief that the Sun and the Moon are each traveling in an orbit: Yes
The Sun definitely travels in an orbit. You will find many examples like this throughout the Quran. Certain words were avoided so that the Quran maintains its timeless nature! The mechanism the Quran does this is through vagueness and word avoidance!
Also notice how the Quran allows room for those who are unwilling to accept Islam to have their reasons to reject Islam. People may say that the author of the Quran did not know that the Earth has an orbit because the Quran didn’t explicitly state it. The response to that claim is that if the Quran has stated that the Earth has an orbit around the sun, it would contradict 7th century belief and they wouldn’t be compelled in accepting Islam. It’s a requirement for the Quran to maintain vagueness so that it becomes timeless. To some this is a strong piece of evidence that the Quran has a divine origin, to others this is just the Quran displaying its ignorance. This further alludes to the point previously made that the Quran must have sufficient evidence to compel those whose hearts are open but they must be sufficiently vague so that it doesn’t compel those whose hearts are closed. Those who are unwilling to accept Islam would say that the Quran was wrong on its account for the dynamics of the solar system. Those willing to accept Islam would search for greater answers and realize the Quran has avoided to clearly state the geocentric model so that it remains timeless.
Cc Rilwayne001 lexiconkabir, presbulg, udatso, Newnas, WORDWORLD, contact17, carinmom, Oladim, yazach, Empiree vedaxcool, haffaze777 Hdee, et al. 6 Likes 4 Shares |
| Re: Points To Ponder Upon-Non-Muslims Especially Atheists And Christians! by Nobody: 1:02pm On Jul 31, 2016 |
Ironically, The Old Testament of the Bible has more words of hate, anger and violence than the whole Quran. But more violence is associated with Islam. Therefore it's safe to say, the Quran as a Holy book is more effective than the Bible  6 Likes 2 Shares |
| Re: Points To Ponder Upon-Non-Muslims Especially Atheists And Christians! by Nobody: 1:16pm On Jul 31, 2016 |
summary of the OP's Long article.
1. The Quran and all other religious books are clear enough so that those who already believe continue in their beliefs and vague enough so those who doubt continue doubting.
2. Must be written in a form of language such that it's translations give multiple but plausible meanings. so as the keep the believer in shock and awe, and the non-believer dumbfounded ( asking themselves 'does that make any sense?')
3. In other to be with God, you have to pass a test. This test requires you to submit your free will, and obey every rule in the good book. In doing so, you shall enjoy Utopia after you are dead.
4. The Holy Book, is written a such a way that weather you read the book in the 10th century or in the 50th century, it's ascertion will remain valid [ to the believer ] 3 Likes 2 Shares |
| Re: Points To Ponder Upon-Non-Muslims Especially Atheists And Christians! by annunaki2(m): 1:27pm On Jul 31, 2016 |
Al taquiya thread. |
| Re: Points To Ponder Upon-Non-Muslims Especially Atheists And Christians! by truthman2013: 1:54pm On Jul 31, 2016 |
annunaki2:
Al taquiya thread. says a confused Christian  |
| Re: Points To Ponder Upon-Non-Muslims Especially Atheists And Christians! by Plappvillemoi(f): 1:55pm On Jul 31, 2016 |
annunaki2:
Al taquiya thread. Them want paint allah another color. But we know who allah is. When they shout allah akubar .bomb bomb go kill innocent people. Allah tank go filled up with bood. We know him na  |
| Re: Points To Ponder Upon-Non-Muslims Especially Atheists And Christians! by Presbulg(m): 3:00pm On Jul 31, 2016 |
Jazakallahu Khayran. Very insightful post. 4 Likes 1 Share |
| Re: Points To Ponder Upon-Non-Muslims Especially Atheists And Christians! by masseratti: 8:30pm On Jul 31, 2016 |
The more this doesn't make sense, believe in Koran, it was not written by Mohammed but Revealed to him and recited by the companions, the koran was compiled and authored by the 3rd caliph, saying that i should read something and not make sense and ask questions is telling me white is black and i should just accept it because you say so, even if you are a born Muslim or you convert you must ask questions, our fore fathers asked questions about their gods why cant we? why was dis unity among the companions immediately after the death of the prophet, even before he was buried by Ali And Fathima, it only make sense questions is asked for clarification. 2 Likes 2 Shares |
| Re: Points To Ponder Upon-Non-Muslims Especially Atheists And Christians! by onetrack(m): 8:40pm On Jul 31, 2016 |
In 3:7 we read:
(Quran 3:7) He sent down to you this scripture, containing straightforward verses - which constitute the essence of the scripture - as well as multiple-meaning or allegorical verses. Those who have perversity in their hearts will pursue the multiple-meaning verses to create confusion, and to extricate a certain meaning. The next sentence in that same verse is also important: " And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah." Well then it's useless to even argue because no one, not even Muhammad, knows its true interpretation. So everyone is free to interpret as they see fit, including me, a non-believer. Life is like a multiple choice exam. If you pick the wrong choices throughout the exam, you will be punished. If you pick the right choices throughout the exam, you will be rewarded! The exam is going to be very difficult and it will have many tricks in it to test you. If the Quran or the universe were presented with clear, 100% proof of certainty in God's existence, then everyone believes in the Quran and in God. But the whole test is pointless. He has no need to test anyone, he is god after all and can do whatever he wants. Testing us seems like a silly game for someone who has no need for it. And if we fail we don't just get punished, we get our skin roasted off. Allah is worse than Hitler or Stalin. The whole thing sounds like a scam to me. 6 Likes 2 Shares |
| Re: Points To Ponder Upon-Non-Muslims Especially Atheists And Christians! by Nobody: 8:55pm On Jul 31, 2016 |
onetrack:
The next sentence in that same verse is also important: "And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah."
Well then it's useless to even argue because no one, not even Muhammad, knows its true interpretation. So everyone is free to interpret as they see fit, including me, a non-believer.
Actually here is the full verse "It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them]. And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah . But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding."As you can see from what i underlined, the foundation of the Quran are the precise verses, not the unspecific ones, if you can understand the precise ones, you are good to go, so as Muslims we believe in all, both precise and unspecific as you can see at the end of the verse, infact we can use the precise ones to explain the unspecific ones. But the whole test is pointless. He has no need to test anyone, he is god after all and can do whatever he wants. Testing us seems like a silly game for someone who has no need for it. And if we fail we don't just get punished, we get our skin roasted off. Allah is worse than Hitler or Stalin.
The whole thing sounds like a scam to me. So you believe we are in this life by accident? No purpose? 2 Likes 1 Share |
| Re: Points To Ponder Upon-Non-Muslims Especially Atheists And Christians! by onetrack(m): 9:01pm On Jul 31, 2016 |
lexiconkabir:
Actually here is the full verse
"It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them]. And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah . But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding."
As you can see from what i underlined, the foundation of the Quran are the precise verses, not the unspecific ones, if you can understand the precise ones, you are good to go, so as Muslims we believe in all, both precise and unspecific as you can see at the end of the verse, infact we can use the precise ones to explain the unspecific ones. But the sentence still stands that only Allah understands much (all) of the Quran. Which means that a lot of it is useless to people and would only serve to cause division. Notice that Allah does not conveniently specify exactly which verses are clear and which ones are not.
So you believe we are in this life by accident? No purpose?
I am an existentialist, so I find my own meaning. But there is no inherent purpose to life that I have been able to determine through empirical testing. |
| Re: Points To Ponder Upon-Non-Muslims Especially Atheists And Christians! by Nobody: 9:12pm On Jul 31, 2016 |
onetrack:
But the sentence still stands that only Allah understands much (all) of the Quran. Which means that a lot of it is useless to people and would only serve to cause division. Notice that Allah does not conveniently specify exactly which verses are clear and which ones are not. Which is more? The precise or the unspecific verses? Because i am curious to know how you concluded that muslims don't understand much of the Quran, cuz thats what the underlined is implying... I am an existentialist, so I find my own meaning. But there is no inherent purpose to life that I have been able to determine through empirical testing. So in your quest of looking for your own meanings, have you been able to know why everything in our universe are positioned the way they are? Why only earth is the only planet where HUMAN can live without complications? 4 Likes 1 Share |
| Re: Points To Ponder Upon-Non-Muslims Especially Atheists And Christians! by masseratti: 11:48pm On Jul 31, 2016 |
onetrack:
But the sentence still stands that only Allah understands much (all) of the Quran. Which means that a lot of it is useless to people and would only serve to cause division. Notice that Allah does not conveniently specify exactly which verses are clear and which ones are not.
I am an existentialist, so I find my own meaning. But there is no inherent purpose to life that I have been able to determine through empirical testing. Am not an atheist, but The koran was revealed or handed down to Mohammed? or was it written down by the third caliph? |
| Re: Points To Ponder Upon-Non-Muslims Especially Atheists And Christians! by Demmzy15(m): 12:12am On Aug 01, 2016 |
masseratti:
Am not an atheist, but The koran was revealed or handed down to Mohammed? or was it written down by the third caliph? The Quran was revealed to Prophet Muhammad(SAW) in which he dictated to his companions who wrote it down. It was standardized by the 3rd Caliph like we have today! |
| Re: Points To Ponder Upon-Non-Muslims Especially Atheists And Christians! by masseratti: 1:16am On Aug 01, 2016 |
Demmzy15:
The Quran was revealed to Prophet Muhammad(SAW) in which he dictated to his companions who wrote it down. It was standardized by the 3rd Caliph like we have today! no records of any companion writing it down, it was recited orally and written down by the 3rd caliph, why would anyone one want to standardise a perfect book? kindly explain what standardized means please. |
| Re: Points To Ponder Upon-Non-Muslims Especially Atheists And Christians! by true2god: 6:45am On Aug 01, 2016 |
masseratti:
no records of any companion writing it down, it was recited orally and written down by the 3rd caliph, why would anyone one want to standardise a perfect book? kindly explain what standardized means please. If the Koran was standardized and yet poorly written and arranged (the worst book ever written in terms of taught arrangements and grammatical structuring), only God knows how it looked like prior the alleged 'standardization'. |
| Re: Points To Ponder Upon-Non-Muslims Especially Atheists And Christians! by onetrack(m): 7:31am On Aug 01, 2016 |
masseratti:
Am not an atheist, but The koran was revealed or handed down to Mohammed? or was it written down by the third caliph? I apply Occam's razor to this. Books are written by people, this is provable and knowable. I have never seen a book from a source other than people. Therefore I presume that all books are written by people. The Quran is no exception; there is nothing unusual about it as a book. |
| Re: Points To Ponder Upon-Non-Muslims Especially Atheists And Christians! by onetrack(m): 7:38am On Aug 01, 2016 |
lexiconkabir:
Which is more? The precise or the unspecific verses? Because i am curious to know how you concluded that muslims don't understand much of the Quran, cuz thats what the underlined is implying... I'm simply quoting the Quran, which says that only Allah understands its true meaning. This necessarily means that no one else does, including Muslims.
So in your quest of looking for your own meanings, have you been able to know why everything in our universe are positioned the way they are? Why only earth is the only planet where HUMAN can live without complications?
I think that physics and chemistry can explain this quite well. In any case, humans do not live here without complications, life was actually quite difficult until modern scientists figured out ways to improve our survival. And there are still lots of complications. And in terms of evolution, humans evolved in response to the environment which explains why we exist in the form that we do and why we survive on earth. |
| Re: Points To Ponder Upon-Non-Muslims Especially Atheists And Christians! by Nobody: 7:46am On Aug 01, 2016 |
onetrack:
I'm simply quoting the Quran, which says that only Allah understands its true meaning. This necessarily means that no one else does, including Muslims. Quote where Allaah said MOST of the Quran is not precise.....only then can you make that assertion for Allaah said only HE The most Gracious knows the meaning of the unspecific verses. I think that physics and chemistry can explain this quite well. In any case, humans do not live here without complications, life was actually quite difficult until modern scientists figured out ways to improve our survival. And there are still lots of complications. And in terms of evolution, humans evolved in response to the environment which explains why we exist in the form that we do and why we survive on earth. You live in conplications? Do you find it hard to get fresh air? Is it always hot throughout the year? A quick question – you sound llke you subscribe to the evolution theory, do you? 1 Like 1 Share |
| Re: Points To Ponder Upon-Non-Muslims Especially Atheists And Christians! by annunaki2(m): 8:52am On Aug 01, 2016 |
true2god:
If the Koran was standardized and yet poorly written and arranged (the worst book ever written in terms of taught arrangements and grammatical structuring), only God knows how it looked like prior the alleged 'standardization'. Very good observation. |
| Re: Points To Ponder Upon-Non-Muslims Especially Atheists And Christians! by Nobody: 8:56am On Aug 01, 2016 |
onetrack:
I apply Occam's razor to this. Books are written by people, this is provable and knowable. I have never seen a book from a source other than people. Therefore I presume that all books are written by people. The Quran is no exception; there is nothing unusual about it as a book. First of all it wasn't written. It was revealed by God. There are many things that make the Qur'an stand out and one of them is it's sciences. The Qur'an which was revealed 14000 years ago contains many scientific knowledge which was just discovered in recent times. 1 Like |
| Re: Points To Ponder Upon-Non-Muslims Especially Atheists And Christians! by Nobody: 8:58am On Aug 01, 2016 |
masseratti:
no records of any companion writing it down, it was recited orally and written down by the 3rd caliph, why would anyone one want to standardise a perfect book? kindly explain what standardized means please. There were records of the the companions writing it down in order to memorize it during the life of the Prophet (peace and blessing be upon him). It was NOT written by the third caliph. It was actually compiled during the times caliph when many Muslims who memorized the Qur'an were being killed. 1 Like 1 Share |
| Re: Points To Ponder Upon-Non-Muslims Especially Atheists And Christians! by annunaki2(m): 9:03am On Aug 01, 2016 |
Demmzy15:
The Quran was revealed to Prophet Muhammad(SAW) in which he dictated to his companions who wrote it down. It was standardized by the 3rd Caliph like we have today! Effectively what you just succeeded in telling us is that it was the third caliph that determined what made it into allah's 'holy' book. He compiled and edited it. What is the guarantee that he didn't add his words and ideas to it. Why was allah incapable of standardising his own words that he claims to be protecting. Also what happened to parts of the original manuscript eaten up by a goat? Why couldn't allah 'protect' his word from that goat and why didn't allah replace the missing parts that the goat ate? |
| Re: Points To Ponder Upon-Non-Muslims Especially Atheists And Christians! by Nobody: 9:07am On Aug 01, 2016 |
This is for serious minded people only.Trolls shouldn't be responded to. I can already see them trooping in as usual. |
| Re: Points To Ponder Upon-Non-Muslims Especially Atheists And Christians! by onetrack(m): 9:10am On Aug 01, 2016 |
Contact17:
First of all it wasn't written. It was revealed by God. There are many things that make the Qur'an stand out and one of them is it's sciences. The Qur'an which was revealed 14000 years ago contains many scientific knowledge which was just discovered in recent times. The little 'science' that is in the Quran comes from torturing the verses until they appear to say what you want them to. This is the same with any other religious text. I've read the Quran and looked at the claims made about science, and have seen more errors than true facts. We don't need to go over them again, I'm comfortable in rejecting these claims. |
| Re: Points To Ponder Upon-Non-Muslims Especially Atheists And Christians! by onetrack(m): 9:24am On Aug 01, 2016 |
lexiconkabir:
Quote where Allaah said MOST of the Quran is not precise.....only then can you make that assertion for Allaah said only HE The most Gracious knows the meaning of the unspecific verses. Actually the author of the Quran says that only Allah knows its true meaning, therefore all of it, however it says that some verses are clear, but does not say which ones. So I guess we are left to guess whatever is meant by it and what proportion is unclear. Interestingly, the tafsir Ibn Kathir says that scholars cannot agree over whether or not the verse should read "And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah and those who are firmly grounded in knowledge..." or if it should be read "And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge..." So maybe 3:7 itself is one of those unclear verses that people should not try to explain. Very convoluted and confusing. You live in conplications? Do you find it hard to get fresh air? Is it always hot throughout the year? A quick question – you sound llke you subscribe to the evolution theory, do you? Humans cannot live anywhere on earth, such as at the polar regions or under the oceans (yet). I absolutely subscribe to the theory of evolution as being the only current valid explanation for the diversity of species. |
| Re: Points To Ponder Upon-Non-Muslims Especially Atheists And Christians! by masseratti: 9:33am On Aug 01, 2016 |
Contact17:
There were records of the the companions writing it down in order to memorize it during the life of the Prophet (peace and blessing be upon him). It was NOT written by the third caliph. It was actually compiled during the times caliph when many Muslims who memorized the Qur'an were being killed. i would love to see the source of companions writing it down please, its well known that it was written down after many of the companions who memorized it were killed in battle, the third caliph author the Koran. |
| Re: Points To Ponder Upon-Non-Muslims Especially Atheists And Christians! by Nobody: 9:54am On Aug 01, 2016 |
onetrack:
The little 'science' that is in the Quran comes from torturing the verses until they appear to say what you want them to. This is the same with any other religious text. I've read the Quran and looked at the claims made about science, and have seen more errors than true facts. We don't need to go over them again, I'm comfortable in rejecting these claims. The verses in the Qur'an are clear. There does not need to be any twisting or "torturing of verses" to prove anything. It has been the same since over 1400 years ago since it was revealed to an man who was unable to read or write. Well-known and famous scientists themselves have commented on the science of the Qur'an and proclaimed its' authenticity. For example the origin of the universe. Scientist agree that at some point everything existed a cloud of ‘smoke’ (i.e. an opaque highly dense and hot gaseous composition). This was recorded in the Qur’an Then He turned to the heaven when it was smoke... (Quran, 41:11) Because the earth and the heavens above (the sun, the moon, stars, planets, galaxies, etc.) have been formed from this same ‘smoke,’ we conclude that the earth and the heavens were one connected entity. Then out of this homogeneous ‘smoke,’ they formed and separated from each other. God has said in the Quran: Have not those who disbelieved known that the heavens and the earth were one connected entity, then We separated them?... There are also many other verses in the Quran and sayings of the Prophet Muhammad that not only talks about science but mention future events which later came to pass. Some of them are still to come to pass- for example the rising of the sun from the west. Scientist have discovered the possiblity of the sun rising from the west due to switiching of magnetic poles. This was reported 1400 years ago by the prophet (peace and blesssing be upon him) who said: “The Hour will not begin until the sun rises from its place of setting. When it rises from its place of setting, all people will believe, but on that day ‘no good will it do to a person to believe then, if he believed not before,’ [al-An’aam 6:158].” Lastly, science is unreliable. New theories and ideas are always being created. Before people were praised for saying the earth is flat but now people are criticized for saying the exact same thing. Whilst science is always changing, the Qur'an will never change. It will always remain one and the same, conveying the truth at all times. 2 Likes 2 Shares |
| Re: Points To Ponder Upon-Non-Muslims Especially Atheists And Christians! by Nobody: 10:03am On Aug 01, 2016 |
masseratti:
i would love to see the source of companions writing it down please, its well known that it was written down after many of the companions who memorized it were killed in battle, the third caliph author the Koran. It was written down but not complied during the time of the Prophet (peace and blessing be upon him). Notice the difference in the wording. Anyways evidence that it was written down during the time of the prophets is in a famous hadith where Umar (who later became one of the caliph) went to his sisters' house to confront her about being a Muslim. Umar came to the door (of the house of his sister) as Khabbab (a companion of the Prophet) was studying under her guidance the Sura Taha. When he came in, his sister saw that he meant mischief and hid the sheets from which they were reading. They were being taught by someone who had written it down after learning it from the prophet (peace and blessing be upon him). 1 Like 1 Share |
| Re: Points To Ponder Upon-Non-Muslims Especially Atheists And Christians! by masseratti: 3:08pm On Aug 01, 2016 |
Contact17:
It was written down but not complied during the time of the Prophet (peace and blessing be upon him). Notice the difference in the wording. Anyways evidence that it was written down during the time of the prophets is in a famous hadith where Umar (who later became one of the caliph) went to his sisters' house to confront her about being a Muslim.
Umar came to the door (of the house of his sister) as Khabbab (a companion of the Prophet) was studying under her guidance the Sura Taha. When he came in, his sister saw that he meant mischief and hid the sheets from which they were reading.
They were being taught by someone who had written it down after learning it from the prophet (peace and blessing be upon him). thank you, good explanation, over the years have been made to believe Mohammed was handed down the koran on a specific night of revelation, never knew it spans over 20years, question is, is it not possible for the 3rd caliph to have alter the manuscripts to suit his claim to be leader since there was still a debate on the legitimacy of the caliphs after the death of the prophet? 2 Likes |
| Re: Points To Ponder Upon-Non-Muslims Especially Atheists And Christians! by Nobody: 3:19pm On Aug 01, 2016 |
masseratti:
thank you, good explanation, over the years have been made to believe Mohammed was handed down the koran on a specific night of revelation, never knew it spans over 20years, question is, is it not possible for the 3rd caliph to have alter the manuscripts to suit his claim to be leader since there was still a debate on the legitimacy of the caliphs after the death of the prophet? No.There wasn't any debate according to my knowledge, the people appointed who was best to become the caliph. Someone was assigned to go to all the Muslims who had memorized the Qur'an by heart in order to compile it into one book. If there was any alteration it would have been noticed. There was a philosopher who tried to 'test' the Muslims during that time. He changed a vowel (if I remember correctly) and the Muslims noticed and told him this isn't the Qur'an. Muslims also have reasons to believe that that the Qur'an has not been tampered with. We have a verse in the Qur'an where God promises to preserve it. Even till this day the Qur'an is one and same regardless of the part of the world one is in. |
