truthman2013:


This guy though

Na him sabi. His problem is, once he tags someone "non-salafi", nothing good is from them. They must be "deviants" as he calls them. That just blocks sense of rational reasoning..

^^ That salah is quite funny, ive been wanting to see how Quraniyyoon prays, thanks for that video Empiree, many misguided folks...

Empiree:

But then, I also argued that most definitely the Jews in the early days most likely touched certain ahadith. This has nothing to do with istikhaarah made by Imam. I gave example earlier but neither you nor newnas respond to that. In the hadith where Jizya is said to be abolished by Jesus upon his return. That pretty much sound in the best interest of Jews and christian. It is very possible to have tampered with it becus the Jizya was for them.

Can you please explain this better especially the embolden, i don't want to misunderstand it, perhaps i didnt read it well.

lexiconkabir:


Can you please explain this better especially the embolden, i don't want to misunderstand it, perhaps i didnt read it well.

Alright. We can start from the sira nabi where Rabbi covered evidence of stoning from the prophet(p) in their Tawrat after a woman was brought to him to pass judgement. This incident happened after prophet(p) reached Medina.



POINT #1


Excerpt:

Subsequently, I went back to the Prophet (peace be upon him), and said: “O Messenger of God! The Jews are a people (inclined to) slander and falsehood. I want you to invite their most prominent men to meet you. (During the meeting however), you should keep me concealed from them in one of your rooms. Ask them then about my status among them before they find out of my acceptance of Islam. Then invite them to Islam. If they were to know that I have become a Muslim, they would denounce me and accuse me of everything base and slander me.”

The Prophet kept me in one of his rooms and invited the prominent Jewish personalities to visit him. He introduced Islam to them and urged them to have faith in God.

They began to dispute and argue with him about the Truth. When he realized that they were not inclined to accept Islam, he put the question to them:

“What is the status of Al-Husayn ibn Salam among you?”

“He is our sayyid (leader) and the son of our sayyid. He is our rabbi and our alim (scholar), the son of our rabbi and alim.”

“If you come to know that he has accepted Islam, would you accept Islam also?” asked the Prophet.

“God forbid! He would not accept Islam. May God protect him from accepting Islam,” they said, horrified.

At this point I came out in full view of them and announced: “O assembly of Jews! Be conscious of God and accept what Muhammad has brought. By God, you certainly know that he is the Messenger of God and you can find prophecies about him and mention of his name and characteristics in your Torah. I for my part declare that he is the Messenger of God. I have faith in him and believe that he is true. I know him.”

“You are a liar,” they shouted. “By God, you are evil and ignorant, the son of an evil and ignorant person.” And they continued to heap every conceivable abuse on me.

Here ends his own narration.

Abdullah ibn Salam approached Islam with a soul thirsty for knowledge. He was passionately devoted to the Quran and spent much time reciting and studying its beautiful and sublime verses. He was deeply attached to the noble Prophet and was constantly in his company.

He spent much of his time in the masjid, engaged in worship, in learning and in teaching. He was known for his sweet, moving and effective way of teaching study circles of Sahabah who assembled regularly in the Prophet’s mosque.

Abdullah ibn Salam was known among the Sahabah as a man from the people of Paradise. This was because of his determination on the advice of the Prophet to hold steadfastly to the ‘most trustworthy handhold’ that is belief in and total submission to God.

http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/1692/abdullah-ibn-salam-jewish-rabbi-medina/




POINT #2

This is a very interesting story located in Seerat nabi. It happened after the prophet{p} arrived in Medina and a woman was brought to him by the Rabbis for committing adultery. The thing is, they wanted to try and set him up exactly as they did to Jesus(p). So the prophet asked them similar question Jesus asked, that they should bring torah since that is the Law. When they brought their torah, prophet(p) asked them to read it punishment for adultery. As the Rabbi was reading and got to the point, he covered it with his finger. Meaning he hide the truth.

Read below

Narrated Ibn 'Umar: A Jew and a Jewess were brought to Allah's Apostle on a charge of committing an illegal sexual intercourse. The Prophet asked them. "What is the legal punishment (for this sin) in your Book (Torah)?" They replied, "Our priests have innovated the punishment of blackening the faces with charcoal and Tajbiya." 'Abdullah bin Salam said, "O Allah's Apostle, tell them to bring the Torah." The Torah was brought, and then one of the Jews put his hand over the Divine Verse of the Rajam (stoning to death) and started reading what preceded and what followed it. On that, Ibn Salam said to the Jew, "Lift up your hand." Behold! The Divine Verse of the Rajam was under his hand. So Allah's Apostle ordered that the two (sinners) be stoned to death, and so they were stoned. Ibn 'Umar added: So both of them were stoned at the Balat and I saw the Jew sheltering the Jewess

Sahih Bukhari 8:82:809, See also: Sahih Bukhari 6:60:79, and Sahih Bukhari 4:56:829

The prophet clearly abrogated STONING for adultery from Tawrat or Old Testament. The new Law is FLOGGING mentioned in the Qur'an. But Sahih Bukhari records STONING as the punishment. The narration above is just brief example of their silly minds.

The Jews, more than a hundred year after Prophet Moses' death created Mishnah (hadith or narrations) and Gemarrah (sunna or actions). The Jews upheld these and the invented laws within them rather than the TORAH, the revealed Word of God Almighty.

Three hundred years after the passing away of Jesus, son of Virgin Mary, the Christians created the concept of trinity which is now the primary source of Christian belief in defiance of the original Bible which commanded the absolute worship of God Alone.

There is also a story of man named "Kaab" after the death of Umar (rta) who had little influence in the muslim affairs then. I don't know much about him. But i think his affairs was quite limited.

That's just a tip of iceberg. But then, there were munafiqs as well. Dont forget that.

Empiree:
Bolded gives room for everyone to pray the way they
deem fit. Imagine we all gather in masjid and some
bending backward contrary to mainstream. Some
would lie on their belling claiming they praying Salat
too etc That's not coordinated.

Your concern is uniformity but God never mention uniformity among men in these rituals as of paramount importance. What matters to Him is the heart of the believers.

I gave you analogy earlier and I told you it is up to you if you choose to complicate this further. You have no valid excuse because the Sahaba were present and saw the prophet (saw) prayed.

And these Sahabas wrote the Hadith, right? They complied it as they compiled the Qur'an, right? Please think.

If Qur'an's descriptions of Salat is enough, ALL "Qur'anites" should be able to pray same way. But i can guarantee you if we gather 10 of you in separate rooms you would offer salat differently.

Too much bothering for uniformity on your path, and what did I say on salat being a flexible ritual? Another problem you face is that you don't realise these rituals proceeded Muhammad, you don't see that Muhammad grew up in a community that understood and perform this rituals. Hence, you imagine people praying salat by lying on their stomach without Hadith. You then ask how I know Suratul Fatiha should begin salat. This again proves you may not even understand the significance and purpose of salat. If I were to give detailed answer to all your questions, I 'll end up not attending to my personal affairs. So I 'll stick with what is important.

This has it context. Even the two afternoon Salat have
theirs and they are totally unvoiced as proved by
uninterrupted Sunnah. Again, i understand what you're
trying to prove. Unfortunately, so long as you reject
tafsir, history etc you may be having problems. You
can't deny history or events or incidents leading to
certain conditions. This issue you raised was directed
at the prophet. It is normal to pray loud during salat
unless otherwise stated. The prophet (p) was simply
praying loud when the ayat were revealed. The ayat
begin with declaration of the purity and Oneness of
Allah. The revelations were based on events.

In favor of Hadith, you abrogate & violate a clear Quranic order to recite aloud and you think all these debatable histories and tafsir acquits you. This is one clear area the sunnah contradict the Qur'an, the instruction in the verse is direct and general for all believers. To demand women recite silently because men are nearby is still clear violation of the command here.

You did say, you reject any Hadith that contradict Qur'an, prove it. Henceforth, recite moderately loud in all your salat in all the rakats, enjoin this on your co-religionists as well. Promise. If you can't do this, then it will be clear to us which take precedence for you; Qur'an or Hadith books.

Sunset is the beginning of the night. We know from
hadith that LAIL is divided into three or more. We are
told our prayer is most answerable THE THIRD PART
OF THE NIGHT. How about the other two NIGHTS
preceding it?. Even if you live in a city and you drive
they recognize LAIL or NIGHT after sunset. That's why
parking is free and parking meter is locked after that.

Night does not begin till after dusk, well beyond sunset. To claim night begins at sunset is like claiming night ends at sunrise or day begins at sunrise. It is flawed and layman. By sunset, when you traditionalists break your fast, it is still clear enough to drive without a headlamp. No one considers this as night.

Empiree:
Na him sabi. His problem is, once he tags someone "non-salafi", nothing good is from them. They must be "deviants" as he call them. That just blocks sense of rational reasoning..

The hadith that a man will soon come to lying on his couch, denying the hadith and accepting only Quran. You better quote the rest of it and edit your post. You intentionally erased the last part because it exposes your deviation.

Which other evil is greater than concealing the revelation?!

Surah Al-Baqara, Verse 42:
وَلَا تَلْبِسُوا الْحَقَّ بِالْبَاطِلِ وَتَكْتُمُوا الْحَقَّ وَأَنتُمْ تَعْلَمُونَ

And mix not truth with falsehood, nor conceal the truth [i.e. Muhammad Peace be upon him is Allah's Messenger and his qualities are written in your Scriptures, the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)] while you know (the truth).
(English - Mohsin Khan)

via iQuran

Surah Al-Baqara, Verse 159:
إِنَّ الَّذِينَ يَكْتُمُونَ مَا أَنزَلْنَا مِنَ الْبَيِّنَاتِ وَالْهُدَىٰ مِن بَعْدِ مَا بَيَّنَّاهُ لِلنَّاسِ فِي الْكِتَابِ أُولَٰئِكَ يَلْعَنُهُمُ اللَّهُ وَيَلْعَنُهُمُ اللَّاعِنُونَ

Verily, those who conceal the clear proofs, evidences and the guidance, which We have sent down, after We have made it clear for the people in the Book, they are the ones cursed by Allah and cursed by the cursers.
(English - Mohsin Khan)

via iQuran
Tell me, if you are not a deviant!

Empiree, there is a misconception you often repeated each time the hadith of shariah monkeys of Sahih Bukhari is posted. You believe its a dream narration. It is not o. We only thank Allah that the so-called authentic hadith is marfoo - its chain never reached the Prophet.

Ibn Hajar al-`Asqalânî in his Fath al-Barr writes more detail about that tale by moonlight:

Amr bin Maimun:

I was in Yemen tending the sheep of my people up upon an elevation. A male monkey came with a female and laid his head on her hand. Then a smaller monkey came and beckoned towards her, so she gently slipped her hand out from under the cheek of the first monkey and followed him. He mated with her while I looked on. Then she returned and gently tried to slip her hand back under the cheek of the first monkey, but he woke up suddenly, smelled her, and cried out. Then the monkeys gathered round and he began screaming while pointing towards her with his hand. The monkeys went all about and came back with that monkey that I recognized. They dug a pit for the two of them and stoned them both. So I had witnessed stoning being carried out by other than Adam’s descendants.
"
http://library.islamweb.net/newlibrary/display_book.php?flag=1&bk_no=52&ID=6991


This Wahabiyyah website also stylishly denied the hadith:
http://www.ahlalhdeeth.com/vbe/showpost.php?p=21397&postcount=2

Unfortunately you will see our mentalomania fanatic here claiming it is Sahih.

Newnas:



The hadith that a man will soon come to lying on his couch, denying the hadith and accepting only Quran. You better quote the rest of it and edit your post. You intentionally erased the last part because it exposes your deviation.

Which other evil is greater than concealing the revelation?!

Surah Al-Baqara, Verse 42:
وَلَا تَلْبِسُوا الْحَقَّ بِالْبَاطِلِ وَتَكْتُمُوا الْحَقَّ وَأَنتُمْ تَعْلَمُونَ

And mix not truth with falsehood, nor conceal the truth [i.e. Muhammad Peace be upon him is Allah's Messenger and his qualities are written in your Scriptures, the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)] while you know (the truth).
(English - Mohsin Khan)

via iQuran

Surah Al-Baqara, Verse 159:
إِنَّ الَّذِينَ يَكْتُمُونَ مَا أَنزَلْنَا مِنَ الْبَيِّنَاتِ وَالْهُدَىٰ مِن بَعْدِ مَا بَيَّنَّاهُ لِلنَّاسِ فِي الْكِتَابِ أُولَٰئِكَ يَلْعَنُهُمُ اللَّهُ وَيَلْعَنُهُمُ اللَّاعِنُونَ

Verily, those who conceal the clear proofs, evidences and the guidance, which We have sent down, after We have made it clear for the people in the Book, they are the ones cursed by Allah and cursed by the cursers.
(English - Mohsin Khan)

via iQuran
Tell me, if you are not a deviant!

I no longer understand how you think. You are losing it. The post was not directed at you. Therefore, I quoted what was necessary to the person in question. Is there a problem in half quotes?. Absolutely not. You never came across where a quote starts like this,

".........DEF? and ends like this UVW......"

And then you quote Qur'an to buttress your point. Far as i am concern you just trying to digress instead of addressing baqir.

usermane:


Your concern is uniformity [size=2pt]but God never mention uniformity among men in these rituals as of paramount importance. What matters to Him is the heart of the believers.[/size]


And these Sahabas wrote the Hadith, right? [size=2pt]They complied it as they compiled the Qur'an, right? Please think.[/size]



[size=3pt]Too much bothering for uniformity on your path, and what did I say on salat being a flexible ritual? Another problem you face is that you don't realise these rituals proceeded Muhammad, you don't see that Muhammad grew up in a community that understood and perform this rituals. Hence, you imagine people praying salat by lying on their stomach without Hadith. You then ask how I know Suratul Fatiha should begin salat. This again proves you may not even understand the significance and purpose of salat. If I were to give detailed answer to all your questions, I 'll end up not attending to my personal affairs. So I 'll stick with what is important.



In favor of Hadith, you abrogate & violate a clear Quranic order to recite aloud and you think all these debatable histories and tafsir acquits you. This is one clear area the sunnah contradict the Qur'an, the instruction in the verse is direct and general for all believers. To demand women recite silently because men are nearby is still clear violation of the command here.

You did say, you reject any Hadith that contradict Qur'an, prove it. Henceforth, recite moderately loud in all your salat in all the rakats, enjoin this on your co-religionists as well. Promise. If you can't do this, then it will be clear to us which take precedence for you; Qur'an or Hadith books.



Night does not begin till after dusk, well beyond sunset. To claim night begins at sunset is like claiming night ends at sunrise or day begins at sunrise. It is flawed and layman. By sunset, when you traditionalists break your fast, it is still clear enough to drive without a headlamp. No one considers this as night. [/size]

******** looks like this thread is now EXTENSION of my thread officially. However, I don't think I should waste my time. I see your problems.

About the Sahabas you talked about, I'm saying these are people very closed to the prophet(saw). How the heck in the whole wide world they didn't see him practically?. It's clear now that not only did you reject hadith but you reject Islamic history.




******* On uniformity, sura 3 ayah 103 sums it all. This ayah is not just about bringing sects together but brings obligatory practices together as well. Why did you single out Salat if anyone can just pray as they like? . You can as well say individual should fast in Ramadan in different months in a year. You can as well say zakat should be given anytime in a year. You can as well say individual Muslims should go to hajj when they want in a year. This is silly. These are FIXED practices and Haj being the CENTER of that UNIFORMITY.

AYAH 103 is dealing also with Islam. Islam is 5 obligatory practices and they come under "hold on to the rope of Allah ALL of you together and DO NOT be divided....."

After Islam there are other aspects such as Ihsan etc. You don't know Islam at all.




****** On LAIL, that's not even issue of Quranite vs mainstream. No. There are those who have problems with breaking fast when the sky is clear even after sunset. Growing up, we used to wait till sundown NOT dark dark. Sundown is not 4, 5 6 or 7 pm.




****** On history, honestly you are just a joke. You downplayed Islamic history and read Qur'an like a novel. Every civilization has history. If you want to be US citizen they give you history book to study before the interview. Nigeria has its own history. Why are you denying this one?.

At this point, it doesn't make sense to argue over this if you do not recognize the history. The history is tafsir, hadith, seerat etc. If you say it's mixed up with fallacies, fine but to deny it in its entirety is very problematic. What do you think brought many of these non Muslim professionals to Islam?. They read the seerat nabi a lot. You would make fool of yourself if you deny Islamic history in their presence.Your rejection of tafsir and seerat is the genesis of your confusion and I can not help you.

Even Salat is laid down step by step in orderly fashion in Nehemiah in Old Testament. And Islam came to complete it. You are telling me that the prophet (saw) didn't practicalize it? . I'm sorry we do not read Qur'an like novel or like Bible. Even in Christianity they have bible studies where they teach some history. You gotta be joking. Unless and until you accept Islamic history as part of the context of Qur'an and tafsir explaining certain incidents, then we have nothing else to talk about.

You refused to tell me how you bury your love one USING Quran ALONE.

Empiree:
[size=5pt]alright. We can start from the sira nabi where Rabbi covered evidence of stoning from the prophet(p) in their Tawrat after a woman was brought to him to pass judgement. This incident happened after prophet(p) reached Medina.



POINT #1


Excerpt:

Subsequently, I went back to the Prophet (peace be upon him), and said: “O Messenger of God! The Jews are a people (inclined to) slander and falsehood. I want you to invite their most prominent men to meet you. (During the meeting however), you should keep me concealed from them in one of your rooms. Ask them then about my status among them before they find out of my acceptance of Islam. Then invite them to Islam. If they were to know that I have become a Muslim, they would denounce me and accuse me of everything base and slander me.”

The Prophet kept me in one of his rooms and invited the prominent Jewish personalities to visit him. He introduced Islam to them and urged them to have faith in God.

They began to dispute and argue with him about the Truth. When he realized that they were not inclined to accept Islam, he put the question to them:

“What is the status of Al-Husayn ibn Salam among you?”

“He is our sayyid (leader) and the son of our sayyid. He is our rabbi and our alim (scholar), the son of our rabbi and alim.”

“If you come to know that he has accepted Islam, would you accept Islam also?” asked the Prophet.

“God forbid! He would not accept Islam. May God protect him from accepting Islam,” they said, horrified.

At this point I came out in full view of them and announced: “O assembly of Jews! Be conscious of God and accept what Muhammad has brought. By God, you certainly know that he is the Messenger of God and you can find prophecies about him and mention of his name and characteristics in your Torah. I for my part declare that he is the Messenger of God. I have faith in him and believe that he is true. I know him.”

“You are a liar,” they shouted. “By God, you are evil and ignorant, the son of an evil and ignorant person.” And they continued to heap every conceivable abuse on me.

Here ends his own narration.

Abdullah ibn Salam approached Islam with a soul thirsty for knowledge. He was passionately devoted to the Quran and spent much time reciting and studying its beautiful and sublime verses. He was deeply attached to the noble Prophet and was constantly in his company.

He spent much of his time in the masjid, engaged in worship, in learning and in teaching. He was known for his sweet, moving and effective way of teaching study circles of Sahabah who assembled regularly in the Prophet’s mosque.

Abdullah ibn Salam was known among the Sahabah as a man from the people of Paradise. This was because of his determination on the advice of the Prophet to hold steadfastly to the ‘most trustworthy handhold’ that is belief in and total submission to God.

http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/1692/abdullah-ibn-salam-jewish-rabbi-medina/




POINT #2

This is a very interesting story located in Seerat nabi. It happened after the prophet{p} arrived in Medina and a woman was brought to him by the Rabbis for committing adultery. The thing is, they wanted to try and set him up exactly as they did to Jesus(p). So the prophet asked them similar question Jesus asked, that they should bring torah since that is the Law. When they brought their torah, prophet(p) asked them to read it punishment for adultery. As the Rabbi was reading and got to the point, he covered it with his finger. Meaning he hide the truth.

Read below

Narrated Ibn 'Umar: A Jew and a Jewess were brought to Allah's Apostle on a charge of committing an illegal sexual intercourse. The Prophet asked them. "What is the legal punishment (for this sin) in your Book (Torah)?" They replied, "Our priests have innovated the punishment of blackening the faces with charcoal and Tajbiya." 'Abdullah bin Salam said, "O Allah's Apostle, tell them to bring the Torah." The Torah was brought, and then one of the Jews put his hand over the Divine Verse of the Rajam (stoning to death) and started reading what preceded and what followed it. On that, Ibn Salam said to the Jew, "Lift up your hand." Behold! The Divine Verse of the Rajam was under his hand. So Allah's Apostle ordered that the two (sinners) be stoned to death, and so they were stoned. Ibn 'Umar added: So both of them were stoned at the Balat and I saw the Jew sheltering the Jewess

Sahih Bukhari 8:82:809, See also: Sahih Bukhari 6:60:79, and Sahih Bukhari 4:56:829

The prophet clearly abrogated STONING for adultery from Tawrat or Old Testament. The new Law is FLOGGING mentioned in the Qur'an. But Sahih Bukhari records STONING as the punishment. The narration above is just brief example of their silly minds.

The Jews, more than a hundred year after Prophet Moses' death created Mishnah (hadith or narrations) and Gemarrah (sunna or actions). The Jews upheld these and the invented laws within them rather than the TORAH, the revealed Word of God Almighty.

Three hundred years after the passing away of Jesus, son of Virgin Mary, the Christians created the concept of trinity which is now the primary source of Christian belief in defiance of the original Bible which commanded the absolute worship of God Alone.

There is also a story of man named "Kaab" after the death of Umar (rta) who had little influence in the muslim affairs then. I don't know much about him. But i think his affairs was quite limited.

That's just a tip of iceberg. But then, there were munafiqs as well. Dont forget that[/size].

So in nutshell you believe that the sunnah has been tampered with even when Allaah said he will protect it?

Empiree:
I no longer understand how you think. You are losing it. The post was not directed at you. Therefore, I quoted what was necessary to the person in question. Is there a problem in half quotes?. Absolutely not. You never came across where a quote starts like this,

".........DEF? and ends like this UVW......"

And then you quote Qur'an to buttress your point. Far as i am concern you just trying to digress instead of addressing baqir.

You don't stop Marvelling me with your vain talks and baseless goals.

Isn't there a difference between cutting a part of the quoted part off because it's irrelevant and cutting it off so as to distort the meaning of the original speaker?!

You are talking to enlightened people here, just in case you forgot!

You intentionally cut the concluding part because it will show that the hadith is against you not supporting you!

lexiconkabir:


So in nutshell you believe that the sunnah has been tampered with even when Allaah said he will protect it?

That's the way innovators behave, they don't restrict themselves to the texts, they give supreme verdict to their intellect not knowledge.

The implication of this is everyone would be free to accept or reject whatever he wills in the religion depending on what his intellect no matter how corrupt and ignorant it is.

So, there is no wisdom in sending the messengers Alyhimussalam when the human intellect would still be the final judge not the revelation.

Paradoxically, those who rely on intellect don't last at all before they are thrashed by scholars of sunnah even when debated with the intellect they claim to follow.

lexiconkabir:


So in nutshell you believe that the sunnah has been tampered with even when Allaah said he will protect it?

Where has Allah promised to protect the Sunnah? As you might have read there is mutawattir hadith which says Nabi, salallahu alayhi wa ahli will disown even many of his known Sahabah on the day of judgment for the bid'ah they introduced into deen. Some of these bid'ah are what is painted as Sunnah of the Prophet.

The protection of the Sunnah and the practice of the correct sunnah lies in following hadith Thaqalain:
Narrated Zaid bin Arqam, may Allah be pleased with both of them:

that the Messenger of Allah (s) said:"Indeed, I am leaving among you, that which if you hold fast to them, you shall never be misguided after me. One of them is greater than the other: The Book of Allah is a rope extended from the sky to the earth, and my offspring - the people of my house - and they shall not split until they meet at the Hawd, so look at how you deal with them after me."

The hadith Thaqalain is mutawattir. You don't follow the guidance of the Quran and Sunnah of the Prophet as explained and dictated by the Ahl al-Bayt, you are doomed fi duniya wa al-Akhira.

AlBaqir:


Where has Allah promised to protect the Sunnah? As you might have read there is mutawattir hadith which says Nabi, salallahu alayhi wa ahli will disown even many of his known Sahabah on the day of judgment for the bid'ah they introduced into deen. Some of these bid'ah are what is painted as Sunnah of the Prophet.

Discussing with you is a wasted effort, and i don't have such efforts to waste, I've already established why i made that statement, read the thread from the beginning.

lexiconkabir:


Discussing with you is a wasted effort, and i don't have such efforts to waste, I've already established why i made that statement, read the thread from the beginning.

You and your folks pride in yourselves too much. Don't feel important. This is a public forum. Even if I quote you does not mean am discussing with you one on one. Exposing your fanatic aqeedah is my job here.

^^ exposing what? wishful thinking from a shi'a, like i said, i got no time reiterating, if you want to know why i made that statement, read the thread from the beginning, simple! Ya khabees! I pray Allaah bring you back to the right path before its too late, Ameen.

^Ahlu Fitnah wal Jama'ah, you guys with foul languages sha. Its part of your DNA. If we tell you that your psychic is far different from Quranic commands, you will cry loud that you uphold Sunnah. You and your folk, tell me how you ever fit in to this ayah:
Call to the way of your Lord with wisdom and goodly exhortation, and have disputations with them in the best manner; surely your Lord best knows those who go astray from His path, and He knows best those who follow the right way.

Newnas:


You don't stop Marvelling me with your vain talks and baseless goals.

Isn't there a difference between cutting a part of the quoted part off because it's irrelevant and cutting it off so as to distort the meaning of the original speaker?!

You are talking to enlightened people here, just in case you forgot!

You intentionally cut the concluding part because it will show that the hadith is against you not supporting you!

Bolded part is your opinion. Besides, you only digressing from topic bcus the issue was not addressed to you. Dont know why you taking advil over someone else's problems.

lexiconkabir:


So in nutshell you believe that the sunnah has been tampered with even when Allaah said he will protect it?

This is rather cheap and generalizing the whole thing. Sunnah is pretty much divided into segments. Sunnah under wajib are protected, under mustahab are largely protected as well but debatable. The aspect I am more concerned about is the example i gave earlier but none of you addressed it.

All the irrelevancies injected is what I am talking about that really have nothing to do with salavation and that sound ridiculous. I am not talking about universally accepted Sunnah

Newnas:


That's the way innovators behave, they don't restrict themselves to the texts, they give supreme verdict to their intellect not knowledge.

The implication of this is everyone would be free to accept or reject whatever he wills in the religion depending on what his intellect no matter how corrupt and ignorant it is.

So, there is no wisdom in sending the messengers Alyhimussalam when the human intellect would still be the final judge not the revelation.

Paradoxically, those who rely on intellect don't last at all before they are thrashed by scholars of sunnah even when debated with the intellect they claim to follow.

This is irrelevant. You should rather defend the ahadith baqir quoited rather than talking. You only keep talking without defending any. You are the one who claimed everything in Sahih Bukhari is perfect but you have not defended just one. I am even trying to help you against albaqir but you keep sounding off.

Empiree: I think we should be careful of raising the level of hadith with standard of Qur'an.

So, are you not raising Hadith beyond Quran when you accept Hadith to recite your salat silenly whilst ignoring Qur'an rule to recite aloud?

Your words aren't saying what your heart says. For so long you have lead me on with those words, though I harbored suspicions. Suspicions which were confirmed when you couldn't make the promise I requested in my last post. This confirms as far as Islam is concerned, you regard the teachings of your clerics and your customs or pre-existing belief above the Qur'an. Why else would you recite your salat silently when Qur'an directly stipulates otherwise?

Another thing I observe is you lack a well defined methodology of accepting Hadith. Since some some of the Hadith you acknowledge contradict the Qur'an and some of those you reject are Sahih Hadith, you evidently just cherry-pick Hadith based on the teachings of your clerics, your pre-existing notions and customs. I don't give a damn this as long as you are transparent and not in denial about it

Peace.

usermane:


So, are you not raising Hadith beyond Quran when you accept Hadith to recite your salat silenly whilst ignoring Qur'an rule to recite aloud?

Your words aren't saying what your heart says. For so long you have lead me on with those words, though I harbored suspicions. Suspicions which were confirmed when you couldn't make the promise I requested in my last post. This confirms as far as Islam is concerned, you regard the teachings of your clerics and your customs or pre-existing belief above the Qur'an. Why else would you recite your salat silently when Qur'an directly stipulates otherwise?

Another thing I observe is you lack a well defined methodology of accepting Hadith. Since some some of the Hadith you acknowledge contradict the Qur'an and some of those you reject are Sahih Hadith, you evidently just cherry-pick Hadith based on the teachings of your clerics, your pre-existing notions and customs. I don't give a damn this as long as you are transparent and not in denial about it

Peace.

Still perambulating. Tell me how you bury your dead according to Qur'an?.

When you offer your salat alone do as you wish. But when you are behind Imam in congregation you follow the rules. There are people who are not comfortable reciting silently in afternoon salat. They would recite loud in their own single salat. Qur'an says recite not too loud and not too low. Does that indicates which of the 5 daily salat?. Answer is NO. Its the prophet (p) who demonstrated that. You are free to recitem zhur and Asr loud when you pray alone. That's btw you and Him. There is no contradicting Qur'an here. So long as you reject Islamic history you will forever be confused.

What's is the percentage of Qur'anites in the Muslim world?
I'm sure it's far less than 0.00.00 to nothing. Qur'an also speaks of Ramadan but without practical demonstration by the prophet we would not know the start, rules and the end. The same applies to zakathe and Haj.

Keep living in your world

Empiree:
Still perambulating. Tell me how you bury your dead according to Qur'an?.

How do you bath your newborn according to your religion? You really remind me of the Pharisees of Jesus era, so caught up with trival issues yet neglecting weightier issues on the law.

When you offer your salat alone do as you wish. But when you are behind Imam in congregation you follow the rules. There are people who are not comfortable reciting silently in afternoon salat. They would recite loud in their own single salat. Qur'an says recite not too loud and not too low. Does that indicates which of the 5 daily salat?. Answer is NO.

Since the Qur'an did not specify which Salat should be moderately loud, it goes beyond saying that the Qur'an is referring to all Salat. If I say, "Eat your meals at the table", I mean you eat all your meals at the table, not one or two of all your meals.

Qur'an also speaks of Ramadan but without practical
demonstration by the prophet we would not know the
start, rules and the end. The same applies to zakathe
and Hajj

You clearly don't believe the Qur'an is sufficient for your salvation. That is the consequence of your discontent with what the Qur'an has provided concerning this rituals. Sawn and Zakat are really easy to observe from Qur'an, can't speak much for Hajj since I am still studying on it. Years and decades of consuming Hadith/Sunnah beclouds one's reasoning, hindering independent inderstanding of Qur'an, you know. Still, I understand Hajj enough to know that Muhammad wouldn't enjoin many of the rites Hadith teaches on Hajj. So, I doubt the reliability off Hadith book to help one understand Hajj. I have been misled most of my life by these books, I just can't see them anymore reliable than rumors or hearsay ever again.

What's is the percentage of Qur'anites in the Muslim
world? I'm sure it's far less than 0.00.00 to nothing.

How do you know that? We don't wear our beliefs on our sleeves, so it is possible there are many around you but you assume they are Sunnis, Shia, Christians or Atheist. Of course, we are tremendously outnumbered in the Muslim community, but that is understandable because we don't have the backing of any government or petrol dollars to run schools, TV stations and Mosques to propagate our ideology. Our intellectual works are banned at "Muslimdom" and we suffer backlash from the family and state for expressing our beliefs.

usermane:
Since the Qur'an did not specify which Salat should be moderately loud, it goes beyond saying that the Qur'an is referring to all Salat. If I say, "Eat your meals at the table", I mean you eat all your meals at the table, not one or two of all your meals.

Your analogy got k-leg actually. When the verse was revealed, it was revealed to one man who in turned taught his companions, which means he understood and practically demonstrated it before his people. Thats what you are missing. Qur'an is a Divine Code

You clearly don't believe the Qur'an is sufficient for your salvation.

Your opinion frankly

That is the consequence of your discontent with what the Qur'an has provided concerning this rituals. Sawn and Zakat are really easy to observe from Qur'an,

Cheap reply. So u just jump into it and that's it?. There is no way for you to do that without proper calculation of days and months before it. That's got to do with Hijra and you can't determine Hijra without history books, the sirat, tafsir etc. Keep deceiving yourself. It is easier for u to fast now bcus you had some idea prior to being "Quraniyun".

Years and decades of consuming Hadith/Sunnah beclouds one's reasoning, hindering independent inderstanding of Qur'an,

now this is some damaging accusation. Sufis are known as researchers, thinkers, philosophers or philosopucal approach studying Qur'an and that doesnt mean rejecting hadith. Thought you smarter than this

you know. Still, I understand Hajj enough to know that Muhammad wouldn't enjoin many of the rites Hadith teaches on Hajj. So, I doubt the reliability off Hadith book to help one understand Hajj. I have been misled most of my life by these books, I just can't see them anymore reliable than rumors or hearsay ever again.

really cant help u unless u are specific of the practice in question.

How do you know that? We don't wear our beliefs on our sleeves, so it is possible there are many around you but you assume they are Sunnis, Shia, Christians or Atheist. Of course, we are tremendously outnumbered in the Muslim community, but that is understandable because we don't have the backing of any government or petrol dollars to run schools, TV stations and Mosques to propagate our ideology. Our intellectual works are banned at "Muslimdom" and we suffer backlash from the family and state for expressing our beliefs.

Lo ba tan! Underlined killed ur whole argument. They will NEVER EVER make it to the top. They can ONLY whin whin whin in the tunnel which is a proof of its falsehood methodology

And how do you know i got paid "petro $$$" to keep my sunni ideology?. You must be some funny dude.

Empiree:
Honestly, i probably have problems with just one or two ahadith here. I dont think the rest of ahadith are wrong. "Science" itself is KNOWLEDGE bestowed by Allah. It ONLY sees what it sees. SCIENCE/ SCIENTISTS can not see the unseen. We know from islamic perspective that all creations, living and nonliving things glorify Allah daily.

Unfortunately you only attempt one, and your reply to the second is laughable brother.

Empiree:

SCIENCE dont read the trees bending as glorification of Allah. They ONLY see trees bend.

From where did you invent that bending of a tree is glorifications of Allah? Quran or another myth of hadith? Trees does not need to bend to mark its glorification of Allah. It is not in trees fitrah to bend like Muslims do in their glorification. Wind will bend tree. Is that glorification? Only Allah knows how these things glorify Him. Man only conjure stories and myth in line with our mechanical glorifications like bowing and prostrating.

Empiree:

Yes, crow, donkey etc can see Angels or evil spirit. SCIENCE can't. And most human can't either. The smallest of all creations, ants that we can barely see also glorify Allah but we human have no idea how. So SCIENCE can not pick that either.

We do not argue that these creatures can see unseen things to human. Rather the so-called hadith emphatically says when cocks see Angels they crow. What would they do when they see evil spirits?

There is an hadith which says Angels do not enter houses where certain things are present. Unfortunately cocks in these houses crow every now and then. Even ilé baba alawo and baba oloogun ika who dines 24/7 with shayateen, cocks there crow.

Am sorry that bogus hadith is one of Abu Hurairah's tale from his bag of lies.

Empiree:

So my point is NOT every hadith you posted, that i just quoted is false, sir. And finally, YES, Yawing is from Shaitan. That's from spiritual dimension. Even scientific "evidence" you quoted is 50/50 chance. They aren't sure from the way the statement is worded.

Which spiritual dimension? How is yawning, which is part of human fitrah (how our Lord created us), is from shaytan? Did Prophet yawn or not? Allah says shaytan can never near or control his devoted servants. It is part of human measure (Qadar) that if you are feeling sleepy or hungry or tired or low oxygen in your lung, you yawn to expel excess carbon dioxide.

Bros you are sensible than all these unless you've joined the bandwagon of Ahlu Fitnah wal Jama'ah.

AlBaqir:
Imam al-Bukhari documents:

# Narrated Abu Huraira:
"It will be said to the Hell, 'Are you filled?' It will say, 'Are there any more (to come)?' [size=15pt]On that Allah will put His Foot on it[/size], and it will say 'Qati! Qati! (Enough! Enough!).

USC-MSA web (English) reference : Vol. 6, Book 60, Hadith 372
Arabic reference : Book 65, Hadith 4849

# Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet (s) said, "Paradise and the Fire (Hell) argued, and the Fire (Hell) said, "I have been given the privilege of receiving the arrogant and the tyrants.' Paradise said, 'What is the matter with me? Why do only the weak and the humble among the people enter me?' On that, Allah said to Paradise. 'You are My Mercy which I bestow on whoever I wish of my servants.' Then Allah said to the (Hell) Fire, 'You are my (means of) punishment by which I punish whoever I wish of my slaves. And each of you will have its fill.' As for the Fire (Hell), it will not be filled [size=15pt]till Allah puts His feet into it[/size] whereupon it will say, 'Qati! Qati!' At that time it will be filled, and its different parts will come closer to each other; and Allah will not wrong any of His created beings. As regards Paradise, Allah will create a new creation to fill it with."

UCS-MSA web (English) reference : Vol. 6, Book 60, Hadith 373
Arabic reference : Book 65, Hadith 4850
http://sunnah.com/bukhari/65

WHAT AL-FURQAN (THE CRITERION) SAYS
[38:84-85]surah Ṣād
"Allah said: ‘So the truth is (this), and the truth I say, "

"[size=15pt]That I will FILL Hell with you and with all those[/size] who will follow your (denigrating mindset).’ "

Here's another Ayat Sherif that exposed both Abu Hurairah and Sahih al-Bukhari:

"And if your Lord had pleased He would certainly have made people a single nation, and they shall continue to differ.

Except those on whom your Lord has mercy; and for this did He create them; and the word of your Lord is fulfilled: Certainly I will FILL hell with the jinn and the men, all together."

Sura Hud: 118-119

Empiree:


Lo ba tan! Underlined killed ur whole argument. They will NEVER EVER make it to the top. They can ONLY whin whin whin in the tunnel which is a proof of its falsehood methodology

We whine? The only reason we engage or discuss you Sunnis/Shia is that you are always in our face. You refuse to accept pluralism because you think you are the saved sect and should have dominion over us all. You also soil the name of Islam in the mud by upholding reprehensible customs.

And how do you know i got paid "petro $$$" to keep my sunni ideology?. You must be some funny dude.

You are a partisan or affiliate of MSS, CAIR and Muslim Brotherhood, right? Do you know how many millions of dollars your organisations receive from Saudi Government? It is from this fund that you receive loans, gifts and many other benefits from these organisations. The magnificent Ramadan Iftar or dinner you enjoy at your local mosque throughout Ramadan, who sponsor them? You have so much money to throw big events, where you invite politicians, federal agents. Would these people come to an event that we would hold? Impossible! We have no exotic means to host these officials that have a feast day every Ramadan with you.



Do you know how much Salafi sheikhs in Saudi are paid to promote salafism and back the Saudi Monarchy?

usermane:


We whine? The only reason we engage or discuss you Sunnis/Shia is that you are always in our face. You refuse to accept pluralism because you think you are the saved sect and should have dominion over us all. You also soil the name of Islam in the mud by upholding reprehensible customs.

"Saved Sect"? I am advocate against that. Accepting PLURALISM is not the problem. The problem is religion is practised as taught by the prophet. We know it is impossible that the prophet was just walking around without practically involved with his sahaba and taught them the religion. That's the sense I am trying to put in your upstairs. Excuse my language

You are a partisan or affiliate of MSS, CAIR and Muslim Brotherhood, right? Do you know how many millions of dollars your organisations receive from Saudi Government? It is from this fund that you receive loans, gifts and many other benefits from these organisations. The magnificent Ramadan Iftar or dinner you enjoy at your local mosque throughout Ramadan, who sponsor them? You have so much money to throw big events, where you invite politicians, federal agents. Would these people come to an event that we would hold? Impossible! We have no exotic means to host these officials that have a feast day every Ramadan with you.

You raised good point but unfortunately I am not partisan nor do i belong to any of the organisations you mentioned. I am not anti them either. See them only as my brethrens in faith.

Yes, Ramadan iftar was good and tastes Premium or First Class taste YUM YUM YUM. Nice Dish with Rice the main dish, Beef, lamb and sometimes potatoes on the side with SUPER stew also on the side of the plate and Roti as desert. Each plate costs at least $10 and probably they ordered some 400+ plates per day for 30 days excluding assorted drinks, Bagels, Biscuits and fruits for pre-iftar. However, this is open to the public which means they dont give a flying fu!k whether you are Sunni/Shia Sufi/Salafi/Wahabi or Quraniyun like you. Even homeless and non muslim dudes tried to belong and pretend to be one the "Muhammadans" but are not chased away. They all eat. So what exactly is your point? That Quranite are dealt with separately or subdued, marginalized and subjugated in the muslim community? FALSE OF THE CENTURY

I know by now you SALIVATING on the MENUS above. I noticed that for you to bring this up MUST have pained you so bad that you didnt get to be part of these organisations in order to scythe the benefits above. That's too painful. I am so sorry but hopefully we still alife NEXT year so you can belong. However, renounce Quraniyoon wholeheartedly to qualify the whole package deal

Do you know how much Salafi sheikhs in Saudi are paid to promote salafism and back the Saudi Monarchy?

You can iron this out with newnas and vedexcool. They are your buddies in the arena

Oh well, am not gonna respond to the first part. Our inputs are understandable. I know you just playing sectarian card. That's okay. I am trying to help newnas out. Thats all.

AlBaqir:



Which spiritual dimension? How is yawning, which is part of human fitrah (how our Lord created us), is from shaytan? Did Prophet yawn or not? Allah says shaytan can never near or control his devoted servants. It is part of human measure (Qadar) that if you are feeling sleepy or hungry or tired or low oxygen in your lung, you yawn to expel excess carbon dioxide.

Bros you are sensible than all these unless you've joined the bandwagon of Ahlu Fitnah wal Jama'ah.

For this, the phrase, "Yawning Is From Shaytan" is euphemism. I know it is natural instinct and also has to do with our body mechanism. I wanted to see newnas objection or support for my replies to you but unfortunately he was busy criticizing me on irrelevancies. I dont have problem with body being low in oxygen causing human to yawn etc. I am saying that the hadith is not necessarily false if understood beyond literal value as worded in the hadith. I did my research before posting 'YAWNING IS FROM SHAYTAN' Was only expecting newnas and supporters to say something bcus they are the one who claimed Sahih hadith is 100%.

So far, they quiet and left me to deal with you. Was not interested earlier until you raised it now. Anyways, the hadith with its interpretation is clear to make some sense. The Hadith is saying Shaytaan likes to see a person yawning because it makes him look different and so he laughs at him. It does not mean that the Shaytaan is the one who makes him yawn. And it was said that yawning is attributed to the Shaytaan because yawning comes from fullness of the stomach, which generates laziness, which happens under the influence of the Shaytaan.



Al-Nawawi (may Allah have mercy on him) said: Yawning is attributed to the Shaytaan because it promotes whims and desires, because it stems from heaviness of the body, excessive relaxation and fullness of the stomach.


^

That's why it is advised to eat less because all Allah's prophets (Upon them be peace) ate less.


Al-Manaawi (may Allah have mercy on him) said: It is attributed to him i:e Shaitan, because he is the one who calls for giving the self its share of desires. What is meant here is to warn against the things that lead to that, which is eating too much and eating one's fill, which makes the body feel too heavy and tired to do acts of worship.

So I insist the hadith is sahih so long as it is not taken as face value.

"Spiritual dimension" is the interpretation and understanding of the hadith

Empiree:
"Saved Sect"? I am advocate against that. Accepting PLURALISM is not the problem. The problem is religion is practised as taught by the prophet. We know it is impossible that the prophet was just walking around without practically involved with his sahaba and taught them the religion. That's the sense I am trying to put in your upstairs. Excuse my language

Is that so? Your traditional Muslim communities accept pluralism? I beg to differ. What happened to these Muslim figures; Muhammad Taha, Rashad Khalifa, Ahmed Subhy Mansur or Javed Ahmed Ghamidi?

You raised good point but unfortunately I am not partisan nor do i belong to any of the organisations you mentioned. I am not anti them either. See them only as my brethrens in faith.

Yes, Ramadan iftar was good and tastes Premium or First Class taste YUM YUM YUM. Nice Dish with Rice the main dish, Beef, lamb and sometimes potatoes on the side with SUPER stew also on the side of the plate and Roti as desert. Each plate costs at least $10 and probably they ordered some 400+ plates per day for 30 days excluding assorted drinks, Bagels, Biscuits and fruits for pre-iftar. However, this is open to the public which means they dont give a flying fu!k whether you are Sunni/Shia Sufi/Salafi/Wahabi or Quraniyun like you. Even homeless and non muslim dudes tried to belong and pretend to be one the "Muhammadans" but are not chased away. They all eat. So what exactly is your point? That Quranite are dealt with separately or subdued, marginalized and subjugated in the muslim community? FALSE OF THE CENTURY

I know by now you SALIVATING on the MENUS above. I noticed that for you to bring this up MUST have pained you so bad that you didnt get to be part of these organisations in order to scythe the benefits above. That's too painful. I am so sorry but hopefully we still alife NEXT year so you can belong. However, renounce Quraniyoon wholeheartedly to qualify the whole package deal

Me salivate? Oh please. I don't eat outside my home. Haha, it is good we share a joke this time, rather than tearing each other over Hadith.

You can iron this out with newnas and vedexcool. They are your buddies in the arena

It concerns you, playa. Your Friday sermons, Ramadan lectures, Islamic books are moderated by Saudi Sheikh, subservient to the Kingdom. The rapid spread of Salafism in the Muslim world account for this.

Empiree:
Anyways, the hadith with its interpretation is clear to make some sense. The Hadith is saying Shaytaan likes to see a person yawning because it makes him look different and so he laughs at him. It does not mean that the Shaytaan is the one who makes him yawn. And it was said that yawning is attributed to the Shaytaan because yawning comes from fullness of the stomach, which generates laziness, which happens under the influence of the Shaytaan.

You have simply deviated from the literal meaning of the hadith. "Yawning is from Shaitan" is what the hadith says not "Shaitan loves to see a person yawn".

@underline, Besides, on what basis was the so-called interpretation is based? Another hadith or senses?

@bold, that is another baloney of lies. No be only fullness of stomach that cause you yawn abeg. However if you can substantiate your point with strong evidence that shaitan laughed only to the yawning of fullness of stomach. That might be more sensible

Empiree:

Al-Nawawi (may Allah have mercy on him) said: Yawning is attributed to the Shaytaan because it promotes whims and desires, because it stems from heaviness of the body, excessive relaxation and fullness of the stomach.


^

That's why it is advised to eat less because all Allah's prophets (Upon them be peace) ate less.


Al-Manaawi (may Allah have mercy on him) said: It is attributed to him i:e Shaitan, because he is the one who calls for giving the self its share of desires. What is meant here is to warn against the things that lead to that, which is eating too much and eating one's fill, which makes the body feel too heavy and tired to do acts of worship.

So I insist the hadith is sahih so long as it is not taken as face value.

"Spiritual dimension" is the interpretation and understanding of the hadith

All the above are just analogy. None of them support their analogy with clear evidence. Period.