God wants all men to be saved, he does not want anyone to perish. That's what the bible teaches.
BUT it does not make sense that we have to pass through earth to determine our eternal abode. Why?
It only makes sense that we have to come to earth to make choices that would either take us to heaven or hell IF we actually had a life before this earth and we are all condemned sinners based on our lives before this earth and God is bringing us to this earth as a second chance to redeem ourselves.
If you don't agree with this, then how dOes it make sense that God does not want people to perish yet he does not just create us directly in heaven without having to pass through earth were we make choices that would take us to hell?

Only deep thinkers would understand this

He is God. He can do whatever he wants

Aside from ACTUALLY existing

Personally, I feel the only reason why man God created hell is so that we can have barbecues on Sundays after singing in heaven. There will also be lots of beer and weed available.

It was after God beat Satan in a weed smoking competition that he won the title "the most HIGH" on one Sunday like that.

Don't ask me how I know. It was revealed to me by the spirit

2+2=4.

This seems right.

Space + matter + time = man

Seems awkward.

The beginning of man himself rests on the non-physical. Nothing else can be absolutely argued to be fully physical.

Those things that makes sense to man may not always be right.
You may be married to your wife for 10 years and rationalize the urge to find a younger babe to satisfy your desires. It may make sense to you but its not right.

It does not matter what our wishes are. It does not matter what seems rational to us. The universe created us to live suffer and die, according to the atheists. This in itself is not rational. There is no reason why we should live then if man is damned in hopelessness.

There is even no reason why you are typing this cos the universe that allegedly created you cares less if you believe in truth or falsehood.

There is a need in man that clings tightly to purpose even when he denies the reality of purpose. That is a good proof for the existence of a Creator.

HardMirror:
God wants all men to be saved, he does not want anyone to perish. That's what the bible teaches.
BUT it does not make sense that we have to pass through earth to determine our eternal abode. Why?
It only makes sense that we have to come to earth to make choices that would either take us to heaven or hell IF we actually had a life before this earth and we are all condemned sinners based on our lives before this earth and God is bringing us to this earth as a second chance to redeem ourselves.
If you don't agree with this, then how dOes it make sense that God does not want people to perish yet he does not just create us directly in heaven without having to pass through earth were we make choices that would take us to hell?

Only deep thinkers would understand this

If there is a perfect god with the ability and willingness to make a perfect world and wants you to be in this perfect world, you would have been there already.

There absolutely is no need for a bizarre cruel test, not only is there no reason for the test, results already known by virtue of omniscience.

johnydon22:


If there is a perfect god with the ability and willingness to make a perfect world and wants you to be in this perfect world, you would have been there already.

There absolutely is no need for a bizarre cruel test, not only is there no reason for the test, results already known by virtue of omniscience.

What is your basis for this supposition ?

God is a being with an infinite mind , thoughts and plans .

winner01:
Those things that makes sense to man may not always be right.
You may be married to your wife for 10 years and rationalize the urge to find a younger babe to satisfy your desires. It may make sense to you but its not right.

It does not matter what our wishes are. It does not matter what seems rational to us. The universe created us to live suffer and die, according to the atheists. This in itself is not rational. There is no reason why we should live then if man is damned in hopelessness.

There is even no reason why you are typing this cos the universe that allegedly created you cares less if you believe in truth or falsehood.

There is a need in man that clings tightly to purpose even when he denies the reality of purpose. That is a good proof for the existence of a Creator.

Long story all to no avail.
How does this answer my op?
God wants all to be saved, so why not just create us all into heaven? Why come to earth first?
It's not rocket science. Putting earth in the equation alone would guarantee that majority end in hell for wide is the path thereof to destruction. So it is either God enjoys burning people while pretending to be the most loving being ever or earth is a second chance from a life before earth were we all offended God.

winner01:
Those things that makes sense to man may not always be right.
You may be married to your wife for 10 years and rationalize the urge to find a younger babe to satisfy your desires. It may make sense to you but its not right.

It does not matter what our wishes are. It does not matter what seems rational to us. The universe created us to live suffer and die, according to the atheists. This in itself is not rational. There is no reason why we should live then if man is damned in hopelessness.

There is even no reason why you are typing this cos the universe that allegedly created you cares less if you believe in truth or falsehood.

There is a need in man that clings tightly to purpose even when he denies the reality of purpose. That is a good proof for the existence of a Creator.

Red Herring Alert! In what way does this address the OP?

HardMirror:
God wants all men to be saved, he does not want anyone to perish. That's what the bible teaches.

John 3; 16 says.....that WHOSOEVER believeth in him WILL NOT PERISH.

Salvation is for WHOSOEVER embraces it.

HardMirror:

BUT it does not make sense that we have to pass through earth to determine our eternal abode. Why?
It only makes sense that we have to come to earth to make choices that would either take us to heaven or hell IF we actually had a life before this earth and we are all condemned sinners based on our lives before this earth and God is bringing us to this earth as a second chance to redeem ourselves.

Why will you choose to die a sinner and go to hell when there is a better choice of salvation? Doesnt that show how evil minded you are? Why will somebody see fire and desire to end in it when there is a way out?

HardMirror:

If you don't agree with this, then how dOes it make sense that God does not want people to perish yet he does not just create us directly in heaven without having to pass through earth were we make choices that would take us to hell?

Only deep thinkers would understand this

God is a creator and displaying his creativity everywere. In some worlds he created perfection. In our world he created imperfections that can be perfected. in another world he made no room for perfection. Thats the creator at work. That imperfection dwells in the earth does not mean that it is so in other realms or universe that God created. This is where you have found yourself and you have to work according to his guidelines concerning this place.

honourhim:


John 3; 16 says.....that WHOSOEVER believeth in him WILL NOT PERISH.

Salvation is for WHOSOEVER embraces it.



Why will you choose to die a sinner and go to hell when there is a better choice of salvation? Doesnt that show how evil minded you are? Why will somebody see fire and desire to end in it when there is a way out?




God is a creator and displaying his creativity everywere. In some worlds he created perfection. In our world he created imperfections that can be perfected. in another world he made no room for perfection. Thats the creator at work. That imperfection dwells in the earth does not mean that it is so in other realms or universe that God created. This is where you have found yourself and you have to work according to his guidelines concerning this place.

What is God's desire? That ALL men be saved. If god wants that so much why not make us all exist in heaven without coming to earth, why put us through the test?

honourhim:


John 3; 16 says.....that WHOSOEVER believeth in him WILL NOT PERISH.

Salvation is for WHOSOEVER embraces it.

And why should I believe in Ur God when they are thousand of God that promised salvation too?? No the good question is why don't U believe in the other Gods??

honourhim:


John 3; 16 says.....that WHOSOEVER believeth in him WILL NOT PERISH.

Salvation is for WHOSOEVER embraces it.

This sounds more like an unfair, unjust, disturbing and infantile criteria.

"Here is a story, a man born of a virgin woman died on the cross to die for your sins even though you don't exist yet"

then you are expected to either believe it [no matter how ridiculous it sounds] or burn forever..

Believe me i reward you, if you don't you burn - seems like a very severe ego issue.

More like GOD is offering salvation from his very own orchestrated wile?

Is it really salvation or just an example of forcful coercion to derive belief?

If the same person offering you salvation is same person going to hurt you in the first place, it's not salvation but rather abusive blackmail.

Makes one wonder "Did any God make such plan or is this just a genius plot of a few who wants you to believe what they want you to believe"

HardMirror:

What is God's desire? That ALL men be saved. If god wants that so much why not make us all exist in heaven without coming to earth, why put us through the test?

God's desire is for you to make good use of that freedom(which he has given you) to CHOOSE in a world where evil and good are optional.

Again God has put those he wants to be directly in heaven there already. He wants you and me to pass through the earth process. Maybe some other being in some other universe are having there own experience. To us its a good experience here. We are partakers of the redemption power, God's mercy, his power to deliver, to heal, to save, to keep, to provide, to correct us when we arr etc. Beautiful experiences that we pass through on earth which the angels cannot understand fully its beauties.
The creator is displaying his creativity as it pleases him. That you dont appreciate his works doesnt mean that we dont. We do.

AmenRa1:

And why should I believe in Ur God when they are thousand of God that promised salvation too?? No the good question is why don't U believe in the other Gods??

Pls carry your distraction and get out of this thread. The Op is addressed to the Christians and thats why we are responding. Go and open the thread about your gods. Call the followers of the various gods to come and argue among themselves while you watch and decide. Or better still find out for yourself the true God thru any other means or you continue to wallow in your unbelief, Am not begging you.

johnydon22:


This sounds more like an unfair, unjust, disturbing and infantile criteria.

"Here is a story, a man born of a virgin woman died on the cross to die for your sins even though you don't exist yet"

then you are expected to either believe it [no matter how ridiculous it sounds] or burn forever..

Believe me i reward you, if you don't you burn - seems like a very severe ego issue.

More like GOD is offering salvation from his very own orchestrated wile?

Is it really salvation or just an example of forcful coercion to derive belief?

If the same person offering you salvation is same person going to hurt you in the first place, it's not salvation but rather abusive blackmail.

Makes one wonder "Did any God make such plan or is this just a genius plot of a few who wants you to believe what they want you to believe"

Have you asked yourself this- What if it is in God's eternal nature to create both what he likes and what he hates? Who defines what qualifies God to be God? is it we the created? So what makes you feel that if God is not all loving as you want him to be then he is not God? Since he allowed evil to come into the world then he is not God?

winner01:
Those things that makes sense to man may not always be right.
You may be married to your wife for 10 years and rationalize the urge to find a younger babe to satisfy your desires. It may make sense to you but its not right.

It does not matter what our wishes are. It does not matter what seems rational to us. The universe created us to live suffer and die, according to the atheists. This in itself is not rational. There is no reason why we should live then if man is damned in hopelessness.

There is even no reason why you are typing this cos the universe that allegedly created you cares less if you believe in truth or falsehood.

There is a need in man that clings tightly to purpose even when he denies the reality of purpose. That is a good proof for the existence of a Creator.

Sorry, wrong proof

Because you want something to be true, doesn't make it true...

Because you want something to have purpose, doesn't mean it has purpose...

And because man clings to the idea of hope and blissfulness, doesn't by all means these things exist...

johnydon22:


This sounds more like an unfair, unjust, disturbing and infantile criteria.

"Here is a story, a man born of a virgin woman died on the cross to die for your sins even though you don't exist yet"

then you are expected to either believe it [no matter how ridiculous it sounds] or burn forever..

Believe me i reward you, if you don't you burn - seems like a very severe ego issue.

More like GOD is offering salvation from his very own orchestrated wile?

Is it really salvation or just an example of forcful coercion to derive belief?

If the same person offering you salvation is same person going to hurt you in the first place, it's not salvation but rather abusive blackmail.

Makes one wonder "Did any God make such plan or is this just a genius plot of a few who wants you to believe what they want you to believe"

Christopher Hitchens called it "Divine North Korea"

honourhim:


Have you asked yourself this- What if it is in God's eternal nature to create both what he likes and what he hates? Who defines what qualifies God to be God? is it we the created? So what makes you feel that if God is not all loving as you want him to be then he is not God? Since he allowed evil to come into the world then he is not God?

True, i agree

He very much would still be God, but if a God allows evil, then why worship him in the first place

A little boy was born into a small tribe in the heart of central Africa. He obeyed his elders, worked on the farm with his dad, and fetched water from the stream for his mom. He also joined them to perform their clan's sacred ritual dance every night. One day, when he was about 10 years old, he went down with tuberculosis after staying up all night in the cold, trying find his beloved pet dog. Having no access to medicine, he dies and is sent to a realm of eternal torment for not knowing Jesus Christ.

Why should there be a test when the teacher knows those that will pass and those that will fail

Makes it bad when the teacher is the cause of the failure and success

I really like the way you wrote this. It is just that I have an entirely different perspective.

winner01:
Those things that makes sense to man may not always be right.
You may be married to your wife for 10 years and rationalize the urge to find a younger babe to satisfy your desires. It may make sense to you but its not right.

Who determines what is right or wrong? As we have argued numerous timed, there are no absolute rights or wrong. Just like time, right and wrongs relative to the frame of reference. A man married for ten years without any children might need to get a younger verile wife to produce children as the older wife might be childless and passed menopause. This is right in many cultures, including biblical israel.

It does not matter what our wishes are. It does not matter what seems rational to us. The universe created us to live suffer and die, according to the atheists. This in itself is not rational. There is no reason why we should live then if man is damned in hopelessness.

This is the statement I like;
On the universal scale, our wishes does not matter, rationality even breaks down, we start talking about irrational phenomena like black holes, wormholes, dark matter, highs bison, etc.
We were created by the universe to survive and die, while leaving our impression ( no matter how insignificant it might be).
It is only Christian and Muslim theists that have no hope beyond worshipping their diety in heaven for eternity. Others hope to leave their impression on their little corner of the universe.

There is even no reason why you are typing this cos the universe that allegedly created you cares less if you believe in truth or falsehood.

There is a need in man that clings tightly to purpose even when he denies the reality of purpose. That is a good proof for the existence of a Creator.

As I said, the universe will continue in its course whatever you do. Gasses will coalesce to form stars, live through their sequences and die (sometimes in a violent explosion, galaxies will collide and coalesce, asteroids and space debris will smash into planets, worlds will be created and destroyed, and so on, no matter what your wishes, prayers or purposes are.

HardMirror:
God wants all men to be saved, he does not want anyone to perish. That's what the bible teaches.
BUT it does not make sense that we have to pass through earth to determine our eternal abode. Why?
It only makes sense that we have to come to earth to make choices that would either take us to heaven or hell IF we actually had a life before this earth and we are all condemned sinners based on our lives before this earth and God is bringing us to this earth as a second chance to redeem ourselves.
If you don't agree with this, then how dOes it make sense that God does not want people to perish yet he does not just create us directly in heaven without having to pass through earth were we make choices that would take us to hell?

Only deep thinkers would understand this

Whoever the god that says all these is not the creator of the Universe. He is a product of the universe himself, fooling the low-thinkers to believe him as THE UNIVERSAL GOD.

honourhim:


Have you asked yourself this- What if it is in God's eternal nature to create both what he likes and what he hates? Who defines what qualifies God to be God? is it we the created? So what makes you feel that if God is not all loving as you want him to be then he is not God? Since he allowed evil to come into the world then he is not God?

As far as i know everything you know about any God is a human idea - so reading this story and comparing the characters there in - this god character seem more evil prone than his supposed evil counter part.

Apparently you see nothing wrong in god being that evil but you somehow chastise the satan figure.

So from this your post its obvious you hardly could defend that which you defined as a salvation plan - having been shown how bizarre, cruel, egositic, unjust and disturbing such idea is.

it's blackmail and abuse not salvation.

Since every iota of this concept is directly made known through human projection, it seems right to assert God is no more than a human projection.

sobif you are going to derive a concept of a god, at least come up with one that is a little bit better than the disturbing traits that human vulnerability confines them to.

johnydon22:

This sounds more like an unfair, unjust, disturbing and infantile criteria.

"Here is a story, a man born of a virgin woman died on the cross to die for your sins even though you don't exist yet"

then you are expected to either believe it [no matter how ridiculous it sounds] or burn forever..

Believe me i reward you, if you don't you burn - seems like a very severe ego issue.

More like GOD is offering salvation from his very own orchestrated wile?
Is it really salvation or just an example of forcful coercion to derive belief?
If the same person offering you salvation is same person going to hurt you in the first place, it's not salvation but rather abusive blackmail.

Makes one wonder "Did any God make such plan or is this just a genius plot of a few who wants you to believe what they want you to believe"

wirinet:
I really like the way you wrote this. It is just that I have an entirely different perspective.


Who determines what is right or wrong? As we have argued numerous timed, there are no absolute rights or wrong. Just like time, right and wrongs relative to the frame of reference. A man married for ten years without any children might need to get a younger verile wife to produce children as the older wife might be childless and passed menopause. This is right in many cultures, including biblical israel.

Okay then. This means everything is permissible. And trust me not everyone wants to live life as dictated by society - Study, get a career, have kids and all. Some people prefer to blow up buildings simply because they are cool with it. Our Society and even governments today is giving them all the reasons to do so. Either absolute Rights and wrongs exist, or they dont. I do not think time or context decides whats right. Time and context are superficial authorities that bend to whatever rules humans give to them.

wirinet:


This is the statement I like;
On the universal scale, our wishes does not matter, rationality even breaks down, we start talking about irrational phenomena like black holes, wormholes, dark matter, highs bison, etc.
We were created by the universe to survive and die, while leaving our impression ( no matter how insignificant it might be).
It is only Christian and Muslim theists that have no hope beyond worshipping their diety in heaven for eternity. Others hope to leave their impression on their little corner of the universe.

You see what I bolded, that determines everything. It does not matter if the universe created us to suffer and die, and it sure does not matter if we leave our impression by inventing space ships or by blowing up a mall. It does not mattter if an ambitious kid says he wishes to become Germany's president. His wishes dont matter.
You dont get to decide the "positive" significant influence another fellow should have during his stay on earth.

Every human hopes for a better tommorrow. Better here is relative. Christians hope to reign with God in eternity. Some others may hope to mess up the lives of people in their quest for a better tommorow. There goes our subjective hopes.

wirinet:
.

As I said, the universe will continue in its course whatever you do. Gasses will coalesce to form stars, live through their sequences and die (sometimes in a violent explosion, galaxies will collide and coalesce, asteroids and space debris will smash into planets, worlds will be created and destroyed, and so on, no matter what your wishes, prayers or purposes are.

And so why does it matter what anybody does with their average of 70 years or so on earth. The problem here is that atheists most times think that most people want to live the average "good" life (even when there's no good or evil). Most people are restricted by society, government, family and even HOPE, else they will be dancing to the music of their naturally selfish desires.
By asking people to significantly influence their world, you have assigned purposes to them. I do not think that is rational or that you even have such right. Without purposes, I think people should satisfy all their subjective positive and negative desires, rather than do as they are told.
Look my friend, hope is innate and a vital element of a meaningful life. Everyone hopes in a bigger and better tommorrow. The last thing you want to do is try to take hope away from people.

Nice thread. But as the Op said only the deep thinkers can understand.

The Hell and Heaven theory doesn't make sense and in fact it makes Jesus himself appear as a Lie and Fraud . I will explain this from the fundamental christian perspective.

∆ HEAVEN /HELL

Cain killed Abel, he dies and go to (Heaven/Eternal life)

David die and go to ( Heaven/Eternal life )



let me stop there : years after , Jesus came and said God love THE WORLD and gave his only beggoten son that if u believe in him you will have eternal life ( heaven )

but from the earlier examples given base on the heaven and hell theory, hasn't the world been making heaven and having eternal life without Jesus ? Its either Jesus is a liar , his death has no puprpose here or the heaven/hell theory is false aftrall Abel and David plus Daniel have eternal life without God giving his only begotten son



~~~~~~~~~~~

Talk about Hell.

Cain die and go to hell .

Christianity teaches that Jesus is the grand plan of salvation of the whole WORLD. Now, Cain and some Israelite kings are already in hellfire , how then can Jesus claim to save the whole world since Millions are already in hellfire ?

HardMirror:
God wants all men to be saved, he does not want anyone to perish. That's what the bible teaches.
BUT it does not make sense that we have to pass through earth to determine our eternal abode. Why?
It only makes sense that we have to come to earth to make choices that would either take us to heaven or hell IF we actually had a life before this earth and we are all condemned sinners based on our lives before this earth and God is bringing us to this earth as a second chance to redeem ourselves.
If you don't agree with this, then how dOes it make sense that God does not want people to perish yet he does not just create us directly in heaven without having to pass through earth were we make choices that would take us to hell?

Only deep thinkers would understand this

The bible makes it clear that God made earth to be the dwelling of man and not as a test bed for his suitability to live in heaven or earth. HE created Adam to live forever in perfection provided he continued to be obedient to his rules and regulations. Unfortunately, Adam decided not to obey and he returned to the lefeless dust that he once was. He did not go to Hellfire for his sin though he was perfect when he sinned. So why should we expect greater punishment of torture from his imperfect offsspring that the bible describes as having a natural propensity to sin as a result of our fallen state?

donnffd:


True, i agree

He very much would still be God, but if a God allows evil, then why worship him in the first place

What you will ask yourself is-

Did you create yourself?
Did you ask to be created?
Was your permission sought for before you were created?
what makes you think our opinion about whether God possesses the qualities to be worshiped or not matters?
Are we (the created) the ones that will set a benchmark that will determine who God(the creator) should be or not be?
There are things we dont have power over so the best thing is to play according to the rules put down since your opposition wont change anything.
Remember that the worship of God is not compulsory

efismikoko:
Why should there be a test when the teacher knows those that will pass and those that will fail

Makes it bad when the teacher is the cause of the failure and success

The test is for us(human) to learn lessons from each other's experience and become better. Not necessarily for God. God knows the end from the beginning.

johnydon22:


As far as i know everything you know about any God is a human idea -

Thats your opinion and it doesnt stop God from being God neither does it stop him from being the creator of the universe.

johnydon22:


so reading this story and comparing the characters there in - this god character seem more evil prone than his supposed evil counter part.

There is nothing like being more evil than his evil counter part. God created lucifer the evil one.
Lucifer is able to operate evil in the world because God allowed him for reasons best known to him of which there is nothing you can do about it than to wail, yell, complain, deny and be angry as you are doing now.
The universe is not your property so face these bitter truths of life and stop clinging on irrelevancies that holds no water.

johnydon22:



So from this your post its obvious you hardly could defend that which you defined as a salvation plan - having been shown how bizarre, cruel, egositic, unjust and disturbing such idea is.

I ve shown you where it is clearly written that salvation is for whosoever will. I dont know why you are wailing and yelling. Nobody is forcing you. Use your will as you as you want and face the consequences or benefits at last depending on your choice.

johnydon22:




it's blackmail and abuse not salvation.

Since every iota of this concept is directly made known through human projection, it seems right to assert God is no more than a human projection.

sobif you are going to derive a concept of a god, at least come up with one that is a little bit better than the disturbing traits that human vulnerability confines them to.

All these wailing will not help you, neither will it stop God from being God and the creator of the universe.
Go ahead to wail, yell, abuse, deny and believe whatever you want and face the consequences or benefit at the end, depending on your choice. Thats how to be a man. Not by incessant wailing.

honourhim:


What you will ask yourself is-

Did you create yourself?

No i ddnt...but your question is based on a faulty premise, "I was created"

Did you ask to be created?

No i ddnt, but then again 'Faulty premise'

Was your permission sought for before you were created?

I wasnt created...

what makes you think our opinion about whether God possesses the qualities to be worshiped or not matters?

Yes it does, if truly there was a God and he did create us with free-will, then i wonder why you would even ask that question!, are you forced into loving something or is it compulsory you love something because its just compulsory?, Do you choice to love something and if you do, what were the reasons for you loving that thing?

Are we (the created) the ones that will set a benchmark that will determine who God(the creator) should be or not be?

No, God can be anything he wants to be, it makes no difference to me, but if he wants my worship, he should be deserving of it...

There are things we dont have power over so the best thing is to play according to the rules put down since your opposition wont change anything.

Wrong Answer...
If the blacks in America during the Civil Rights Movement played by the rules, they would still be in segregation by now.
If our founding fathers played by the rules, Nigeria would still be a colony of Britain
If Europe allowed Germany played by their rules, all of Europe would have been enslaved, black and jews would have been killed in the millions.

Your ideology of play according to the rules in the face of tyranny is pathetic and you should be ashamed of yourself

Remember that the worship of God is not compulsory

Yes its not, Except if you dont, you would burn in Hell for all of Eternity...what a loving God indeed!

....C'mon this thread should not die like this naaa.....

@ HardMirror, I must say, nice thread you got here.

You see according to the bible, after creation of man, God rested, so there is nothing new created. All that exists now are from things originally created. God only created Adam and Eve but gave them the ability to multiply and so, all humans that exist now are from Adam and Eve and not directly created. Every imperfection (being blind at birth, cerebral palsy, meningitis, encephalopathy e.t.c) are actually a result of human faults and unbridled genetical disorder. I personally do not believe in a burning hell where people are tortured for an infinite time frame as it is actually a showy display of ego. In the old testament times, God warned the Israelites never to burn their children in the fire, so why would He do what he prohibits or consider an abhorrence?