AlBaqir:
APPOINTMENT OF ALI AT THE EVENT OF GHADIR KHUMM

Empiree:
The incident of appointment of "successor" or "vicegerent" at the event of Ghadir should rather be understood in its proper context. It is impossible to talk about hadith of Ghadir without understanding its specific context as understood. Sunni Ulama cited example like, for instance, the Quranic verse “slay them wherever you find them” is often used by Orientalists to wrongfully make it appear as if Islam advocates the slaying of people wherever you find them all the time. Of course, if we look at when this verse was revealed, we find that it was specifically revealed during a battle between the Muslims and the Quraish Mushrikun; this makes us realize that it is not a general ruling to slay people but rather it was a verse revealed in a specific situation.


In the same instance, the Hadith of Ghadir Khumm can only be understood in the context in which it was said: A group of soldiers were severely criticizing Ali ibn Abi Talib (رضّى الله عنه) over a certain matter, and this news reached the Prophet (صلّى الله عليه وآل z ه وسلّم), who then said what he said in the Hadith of Ghadir Khumm. Like the Orientalists, the Shia apologetics attempt to remove this background context in which the Hadith was said in order to paint a totally different picture (meaning).

The Prophet’s intention behind saying what he said at Ghadir Khumm was not at all to nominate Ali (رضّى الله عنه) as Caliph but rather it was only to defend Ali (رضّى الله عنه) against the slander being said against him. It is only by removing the background context that it is possible to render a Shia understanding of the text; it is for this reason that we should always remind you brothers of the background context in which the Hadith of Ghadir Khumm was said.


Let's stop here for now

Empiree:
Sorry you were disappointed but let's try to make sense out of this some other way.

Empiree:

Ghadir Khumm incident was only witnessed by handful of muslims after Prophet's blessed farewell speech, and after everyone gone back to their respective places or cities. I believe the best and appropriate time for the prophet(p) to make such important appointment should have been during his farewell khutba where majority muslims present. It is well known that the Prophet (p) delivered his Farewell Sermon in Mecca during his last Hajj. This was in front of the great majority of the Muslims, who had come from all of the various cities to do Hajj. If the Prophet (p) wanted to appoint Ali (ra) as his successor, then there is absolutely no cognizable explanation why the Prophet (p) did not do this during his Farewell Sermon to all of the Muslims. The entire Muslim Ummah was gathered there to hear his parting words, so surely this would be the most appropriate time and opportunity to appoint a successor. Do you agree with albaqir?

Empiree:

This is a quote:

"The Prophet (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) and the Muslims completed their Hajj after which everyone went back to their respective home cities. The people of Medinah went back to Medinah, the people of Taif went back to Taif, the people of Yemen went back to Yemen, the people of Kufa went back to Kufa, the people of Syria went back to Syria, and the people of Mecca stayed put in Mecca.

It was only the group that lived in cities in the North of the Arabian Peninsula that passed by Ghadir Khumm. This would consist of only those who were heading towards Medinah and the minority of Muslims that lived in places such as Syria. Therefore, when the Prophet (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) stopped at Ghadir Khumm and the supposed incident happened, a great number of the Muslims were not present including those living in Mecca, Taif, Yemen, etc. After the Hajj, the Meccans stayed behind in Mecca, the people of Taif went back to Taif, the people of Kufa went back to Kufa, the people of Yemen went back to Yemen, etc. Only the group going to Medinah (or passing through/near it) accompanied the Prophet (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) to Ghadir Khumm."

Empiree:

Therefore, contrary to your claims, the Prophet (p) did not appoint Ali (ra) in front of all the Muslims, but rather what happened at Ghadir Khumm happened in front of just the handful of Muslims who were heading back to Medinah (or passing through/near it). What do you think?

Empiree:
Sunnis do not deny the incident of Ghadir Khumm; however, what they deny are the exaggerations of the Shia with regards to said event.

What happened at Ghadir Khumm was that the Prophet (SAW) was responding to certain individuals who were criticizing Ali ibn Abi Talib (RTA). The background behind this was that a few months earlier, the Prophet (SAW) had dispatched Ali (RTA) alongside 300 men to Yemen on an expedition. This is mentioned on some Shia website, “Ali was appointed the leader of the expedition to Yemen. This context of Ghadir Khumm must be taken into consideration. It is really a long story but i want to get key point out as possible. Hadith of Ghadir appears to be schism between Ali and his troops. Even Ibn Ishaq recordede in his tafsir

When Ali came (back) from the Yemen to meet the Apostle in Mecca, he hurried to him and left in charge of his army one of his companions who went and covered every man in the force with clothes from the linen Ali had. When the army approached, he (Ali) went out to meet them and found them dressed in the clothes. When he asked what on earth had happened, the man (his deputee) said that he had dressed the men so that they might appear seemly when they mingle with the people. He (Ali) told him to take off the clothes before they came to the Apostle and they did so and put them back among the spoil(s). The army showed resentment at their treatment…when the men complained of Ali, the Apostle arose to address them and he (the narrator) heard him (the Prophet) say: “Do not blame Ali, for he is too scrupulous in the things of Allah, or in the way of Allah, to be blamed.”

(Ibn Ishaq, Seerah Rasool-Allah, p.650)

Empiree:

What is recorded by Ibn Ishaq corresponds with some favor Sunni tafsir.

In fact, in “Tareekh al-Islam”, the event of Ghadir Khumm falls under the heading “The Consolation of Ali”. We read:

The Consolation of Ali

Empiree:


During the Hajj, some of the followers of Ali who had been with him to Yemen complained to the Prophet about Ali. Some of the misunderstandings of the people of Yemen had given rise to misgivings. Addressing the Companions at Ghadir Khumm,the Prophet of Allah said admiring Ali: “The one who is my friend is the friend of Ali…” Following the address, Umar congratulated Ali saying: “From this day on you are a very special friend of mine.” The Prophet then came back to Al-Medinah and his son Ibrahim passed away.

(Tareekh al-Islam, Vol.1, p.241)

Empiree:


My opinion on this so far is that, the prophet(SAW) appointed Ali (RA) as leader and guide for those people on "mission". I still got more bcus I am reading a lot more on this for research purposes.

sino:
A simple question which I hope AlBaqir shall avail us with a befitting answer backed with authentic evidence(s) is; DID ALI (RA) USE THIS INCIDENCE at GHADIR KHUMM AS EVIDENCE FOR HIS RIGHTFUL SUCCESSOR IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE DEATH OF THE PROPHET AND ALSO AGAINST HIS PREDECESSORS IN LEADERSHIP I.E ABU BAKR, UMAR AND UTHMAN (RODIYALLAHU 'ANHUM)?!

AlBaqir:


And in sha Allah I will give you a straight up answers.

* Appointment of Abubakar

This took place at Saqifah of Bani Saidah. Only Abubakar, Umar and Abu Ubaydah al-Jarrah were Muhajirun present there to wrestled the Khilafah from the Ansar.

Imam Ali, the entire Ahl al-Bayt and Ali's supporters were never at Saqifah when Abubakar was appointed.

# And Sahih Bukhari documents the sermon of Umar ibn al-Khattab who admitted that when Abubakar was appointed, Ali and his supporters opposed them. What were the wordings of opposition? Umar did not say. And Aisha in her own account revealed Ali did not give bay'ah (allegiance) until after six months when Bibi Fatima died and people were nursing animosity towards Ali {sahih Bukhari}.

May Allah bless Muhammad and his offspring. Kudo to Imam Ali who never took up arms against the government over the issue of Khilafah otherwise the cradle Islam and innocent lives would have suffered.

* Appointment of Umar

Abubakar on his deathbed asked Uthman ibn Affan to write his wasiyah. As Abubakar was dictating this will while Uthman writes, he fainted and before he could wake up, Uthman has written the name of Umar ibn al-Khattab as his successor. When Abubakar woke up, he demands that the will should be read to him. And when the name of Umar was read, he was happy and simply said, "how do you know what I intend to say?".

# This, too was done secretly without the consent of Ali or any prominent Sahabah.

* Appointment of Uthman

# Ali was officially included by Khalifah Umar in his six-man committee which include: Uthman, Ali, Talha, Zubair, Abdur-Rahman ibn Awf and Abdullah ibn Umar.

# Umar gave specific instructions guiding the appointment of his successor from these 6-man committee.

To be more accurate, I will need to quote appropriate historical documentations to highlights these terms and conditions, and why Ali rejected this.

NB: I'm far away from home so it could take weekend in sha Allah.

AlBaqir:


* During the Khilafah of Ali

Abu Tufayl reported that:
At Rahbah in Kufa, Imam Ali asked the people to stand up (or raised their hands) if they witnessed the Prophet at Ghadir khumm with the declaration about him, "man kuntu Mawla fa Adhan (Ali) Mawla, Allahuma Wali man walah wa adi man adah"

Thirty men stood up (in another riwayat, great number stood up).

# Why did Imam Ali brought this issue again after he has assumed authority? Obviously some still doubt his Khilafah even at that time.

See the scanshot atttached.

sino:


The above did not answer my question, please read my question again.

sino:


This narration above is not clear, what was the context?! You yourself tried to come up with an assumption behind this narration, but that does not hold water, if you cannot support it with authentic evidences that states the reason behind the above narration was because "some still doubt his Khilafah".

sino:


But let me bring another narration to the mix,

Zaid bin Yathee’that he said: Ali was told that people were talking about him(badly), so he climbed the pulpit and said: May Allah beseech a man, and I don’t beseech except the companions of Mohammad(SAWS), those who heard the Prophet(SAWS) who heard saying something, for him to stand up. So six people stood up, and after Sa’ad bin Wahb six people said: We swear that the Messenger of Allah peace be upon him said: Man kuntu mawlah fa Aliyun Mawlah(Whosoever I am Mawla of, Ali is his Mawla), Allahuma wali man walaah wa aadi man aadah. [Musannaf Ibn Abi Shaybah , Chapter of the Merits of Ali, Hadeeth #28)

The above narration gives us a glimpse of the context, fortunately, there is an appropriate commentary written by Mohammad ibn Aminah-as found on click HERE

"Comment: The authentic narrations of Ghadeer Khum, when attributed to `Ali, are Mutawatir to him since he uttered those words in the area of Al-Rahabah near the outskirts of Al-Kufa. Due to the large amount of people around, the narration was documented and then spread near and far, and through a large number of his students.

Even though most narrations are not clear in what was the reason that `Ali spoke those words, we do find this vague narration from Musannaf Ibn Abi Shaybah (Hadith #28 of the Chapter of the Merits of `Ali) that suggests that this was done when `Ali was told that people “Yaquloon Feeh,” which roughly translates into: they spoke about him. Which most likely shows that they spoke badly about him, due to which Ali(RA), in order to defend himself besought the companions of Prophet(SAWS) to testify that they heard the hadeeth al-Ghadeer from Prophet(SAWS). It must be known that, the opponents of Ali(RA) during his Caliphate didn’t deny Ali(RA) being a Caliph of Muslims. But some of them like the Khawarij whom he fought at Al-Nahrawan, hated him and criticized him.

Fitr bin Khalifa testified that this event(at Al-Rahabah) occurred only a hundred days before the death of Ali. [See Saheeh Ibn Hibban #7057]. In other words, this event occurred way after the battles of Siffeen and Al-Nahrawan, which puts to rest the idea that Ali was attempting to prove his legitimacy by quoting the narration of the Prophet (SAWS), since Al-Nahrawan occurred in the year 39 AH, and Ali died in Ramadhan, 40 AH. Unless `Ali was not aware of how to prioritize quoting the Prophet(SAWS), we can safely say that he did not understand the Hadith al-Ghadeer to be an appointment of successor-ship.

Interestingly, Ali(RA) never besought companions of Prophet(SAWS) in this fashion, neither when Abubakr(RA) was appointed as the first Caliph(successor), nor when Umar(RA) was appointed as second Caliph, nor when Uthman(RA) was appointed as the third Caliph. He only did when people who came after , who were unaware about merits of Ali(RA) were speaking badly about him, due which he besought the companions of Prophet(SAWS) who knew his merits."

ShiaMuslim:
[s]
So, may Allah curse the people who laid the basis of persecution and wronging against you, O Members of the Household.

May Allah curse the people who drove you away from your position

and removed you away from your ranks that Allah has put you in.

May Allah curse the people who slew you.

May Allah curse those who paved the way for them to do so

and who made possible for them to fight against you.

I repudiate them in the presence of Allah and You
...

O Allah, pour curses upon the foremost persecutor

who usurped the right of Muhammad and Muhammad’s Household

and the last follower who acceded to his deed.

O Allah, pour curses upon the gang that struggled against al-Hussein

and who supported each other against him, paid homage to his enemies, and participated in slaying him.

O Allah, pour curses upon all of them.



-Ziyarat Ashura

Source: http://www.duas.org/ashura/z_ashura.htm[/s]

Warris dis?

ShiaMuslim:

So, may Allah curse the people who laid the basis of persecution and wronging against you, O Members of the Household.

May Allah curse the people who drove you away from your position

and removed you away from your ranks that Allah has put you in.

May Allah curse the people who slew you.

May Allah curse those who paved the way for them to do so

and who made possible for them to fight against you.

I repudiate them in the presence of Allah and You
...

O Allah, pour curses upon the foremost persecutor

who usurped the right of Muhammad and Muhammad’s Household

and the last follower who acceded to his deed.

O Allah, pour curses upon the gang that struggled against al-Hussein

and who supported each other against him, paid homage to his enemies, and participated in slaying him.

O Allah, pour curses upon all of them.



-Ziyarat Ashura

Source: http://www.duas.org/ashura/z_ashura.htm

lexiconkabir:


Bunch of takfiris this is what you know how to do best....

FriendChoice:

It seems they are looking for hell, my Allah give them the hell more than their wish. Shia infidels.

lexiconkabir:

Bunch of takfiris this is what you know how to do best....

Demmzy15:
Warris dis?

ShiaMuslim:






this is how the enemies of Allah, the Prophet and his Ahlul-Bayt (as) are identified and exposed. see as you all got worked up by a simple prayer and look at the display of guilty feelings. they dislike the enemies of the Ahlul-Bayt (as) being cursed. you are indeed hypocrites with incomplete iman, if any iman at all.

anyways, every religious person is a takfiri. everyone believes only his own beliefs are right and the others' are wrong and would lead to eternal damnation.

however, we do not perpetrate Takfiri terrorism or takfiri killings as your wahhabi creed promotes following the legacy of Yazeed. you are so much terrified by our curses and cursing the enemies of the Ahlul-Bayt (as) because you know well that your Takfiri violence can only hurt in this world, while our curses inflicts eternal pain. enjoy!

FriendChoice:
[s][/s]

Who are the enemies of Allah. Who are the enemies of Muhammad peace be upon him. Who are the enemies of Aisha (R.D.) Hafsa (R.D.) Who are the enemies of Abubakar (R.D) Umar (R.D).

If you continue like this, fire is waiting 4 you nonsense. Claiming to love Muhammad Pbum. You're lies, you hate him. I shall expose you in the next post I will post.

ShiaMuslim:






this is how the enemies of Allah, the Prophet and his Ahlul-Bayt (as) are identified and exposed. see as you all got worked up by a simple prayer and look at the display of guilty feelings. they dislike the enemies of the Ahlul-Bayt (as) being cursed

you are indeed hypocrites with incomplete iman, if any iman at all.

anyways, every religious person is a takfiri. everyone believes only his own beliefs are right and the others' are wrong and would lead to eternal damnation.

FriendChoice:
It's already night now, you shall meet me tomorrow. We cannot watch you insult Ahlul bait, companions of the prophet. I shall expose you from the temporary marriage you engage to have free sex in Your way to Zaria, to other atrocities.

ShiaMuslim:


Wallahi aboki you be clown.

So all the ashewos wey full this country, Na temporary marriage be your head. Temporary marriage that's found in the Quran and you agree was practiced by the companions at one point in Islamic history until it was banned by umar. Concocting deceit is your job.

Stick to the topic.

AlBaqir:
@ShiaMuslim,

I must say that am highly disappointed. This thread is about Ghadir Khumm and its going smoothly and steadily untill you posted "Ziyarat of Ashura". This has derail the thread to the point of takfirism. Wallahi this is not proper.

AlBaqir:


It answer your question perfectly. Again how would Imam Ali used the hadith Ghadir or any hadith pertaining to his Khilafah at all when the first khalifah and the second Khalifah had been sworn in secretly?

# There is absolutely nothing left for him again unless he simply want to cause disturbances within the Ummah which he patiently avoided. I don't know what you want again o.

AlBaqir:

# What is not clear there? You mean the "context" that is what took place? Yes like I also said one can assume. I brought this text because it is sahih. I believe my screenshot is clear enough to be seen.

AlBaqir:

Please read this gently and with sincerity:

# The narration you brought above is not authenticated. Can you prove its authenticity? And you can simply appreciate the statement of the writer @underlined. The author himself admitted that the narration of Abi Shaybah with that context is vague. So all his submissions is nothing but assumption. Besides, the narration of Abi shaybah says "six people stood up" while the narration of al-Albani says "thirty men (or large) stood up".

AlBaqir:

# However I still want to comment within the author's assumption. According to him, for Imam Ali reminding those people at Rahbah of the hadith of Ghadir suggest that he was not using it to prove his Khilafah because of that period. Meaning he's already assumed power. Wallahi I love this assumption. Its not far at all to what I suggested. However try to consider these facts:

AlBaqir:

* Kindly check the OP: The documentations of Ghadir "man kuntu mawla fa Aliyyu mawla (For whosoever I am his Mawla, Ali is his Mawla)" which is reported by various sahabah has a context which is "Do you not testify that Allāh and His Messenger are more entitled to you than yourselves and that Allāh and His Messenger are your Awliyā?” They said, “Yes, we do”. He (then) said, “So, whosoever Allāh and His Messenger are his Mawlā, verily this one (i.e. ‘Alī) is his mawlā".

* This context above, is far different from this context of the event of Rahbah: "man kuntu mawla fa Aliyyu Mawla. Allahuma wali ma wala wa adi man Ada (O Allah! Befriend whoever befriend him and make enemy whoever makes him (Ali) enemy".

# While it is very unfortunate that none of you address the hadith of Ghadir as stated in the OP and perhaps question the meaning of "Mawla" within that specific context, you have deviated to hadith of Rahbah in which both myself and your author could only assumed what might have happened while "this new context" was used in this hadith.

# While no doubt the first context signify "someone with higher authority over others", the second context signify that "you can never make Ali your enemy". Observe those that were present Rahbah have already gave bay'a to him. Therefore I can safely conclude that the hadith Ghadir is like a sword with two sharp edges. You can never neglect one edge and embrace the other provided the two contexts are authentic.

* The new context referenced the hadith in sahih Muslim that only the believer loves Ali and only Munafiq hates him. So hadith Ghadir in these two contexts highlights:

1. The Wilayah of Ali over every believer, in the context of Allah's and Nabi's Walayah

2. Loving Ali as a sign of Iman and hating him as a sign of Nifaq.

sino:


Bros, still you haven’t answered my question. The fact remains that Ali (RA) did not make reference to Ghadir Khumm as evidence against anyone in terms of succession whether they (his predecessors) were chosen in secrecy or not is immaterial, since he (RA) also pledged allegiance to them after all, and also when he did so does not matter.

sino:

In fact, we have a narration which clearly states the position of Ali (RA) with regards to khilafah.

From Al haythami in Mujama’a al Zawa’ed 9/50:

They said to Ali: “Will you not appoint a successor?” He said: “The Prophet (sallAllahu ‘alayhi wa sallam) did not appoint a successor so that I may do so, If Allah wishes that something good happens to you then he will make you all gather around the best (Man) amongst you just like he made them gather around the best Man (i.e. Abu Bakr) after their Prophet (sallAllahu ‘alayhi wa sallam)”


[Rank: All narrators are that of the Sahih except Ismail bin Abi al Harith and he is Trustworthy].