brocab:
The Catholic Church was not commissioned by Christ, your claims built your Church that came from Peter as you recall it, God gave Peter the words to say.
{Matthew 16:16} And Simon Peter answered, you are the Christ the Son of the living God, and Jesus didn't reject it, only because the words weren't spoken in the flesh but in the Spirit. Jesus replied and bless are you Simon son of Jonah for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by My Father in Heaven..
The Catholic Church believed Peter was the author of your Church, Jesus said He will build His Church on the words the Father gave to Peter. Which means Peter isn't the rock the Lord was referring too..
And if you Catholic's believe Peter was the one Jesus planted a Church upon, then you had built your Church on flesh and blood.
And don't forget it was the Church of Rome that divided all Churches, because of pagan religion, you still use today.{Idolising your idol's}
{Daniel 2:31-34} The image head was of fine Gold, it's chest and arms of silver, it's legs of iron, You watched while a stone was cut out without hands, which struck the image of it's feet of iron and clay, and broke them in pieces.
That answers it quite well about the Roman Catholic Church.

When Jesus founded the Church, it wasn’t a bunch of separate churches with their own individual doctrines, but a body with different parts throughout the world. We can see this from how Sts. Peter and Paul jumped from church to church around the Mediterranean Sea, founding churches that supported each other and had the same doctrine and rules.

It only makes sense that if Jesus founded one Church, it would be for the whole world. The word “catholic” comes from the Greek word “katholicos” which means universal. With that in mind, the Catholic Church is the Universal Church for all of humanity founded by Jesus. Only a single Church founded on Christ can fulfill the Great Commission, baptizing and making disciples of all nations.

One of the most beautiful things about the Catholic Church is its universality. I can attend mass pretty much anywhere around the world, and though I might not know the language, it’ll be the same liturgy with the same Eucharistic Lord and the same beliefs.

The Church must be able to adapt to different cultures without changing the doctrine or liturgy, which has been shown by the Catholic Church time and time again, on all 6 continents.

Firstly Jesus didn't build a Church made of brick and mortar, this is where most Catholic's are wrong, Jesus didn't build His Church upon Peter nor Paul-He built His Church on the word of God, flesh and blood didn't give Peter the words to say truly you are the Son of the living God.. These words came directly from the Father Himself. Jesus then said Simon Peter and on this Rock I will build my Church.
Jesus also said when two or three are gathered He is in the mist of us. Meaning I don't even have to travel anywhere other then my home town to find fellowship with other believers.
Either I go over sea's there are always believers somewhere, either living in the streets or in their homes, or fellow-shipping in a Church building, Christ leads us where ever He directs us to go..
I do know the meaning of the Catholic's Universal, but your Church was the one that broke away from the rest of the world. We just need to study the history, about the crimes the Catholic Church had committed, and still they are committing today.

9inches:


When Jesus founded the Church, it wasn’t a bunch of separate churches with their own individual doctrines, but a body with different parts throughout the world. We can see this from how Sts. Peter and Paul jumped from church to church around the Mediterranean Sea, founding churches that supported each other and had the same doctrine and rules.

It only makes sense that if Jesus founded one Church, it would be for the whole world. The word “catholic” comes from the Greek word “katholicos” which means universal. With that in mind, the Catholic Church is the Universal Church for all of humanity founded by Jesus. Only a single Church founded on Christ can fulfill the Great Commission, baptizing and making disciples of all nations.

One of the most beautiful things about the Catholic Church is its universality. I can attend mass pretty much anywhere around the world, and though I might not know the language, it’ll be the same liturgy with the same Eucharistic Lord and the same beliefs.

The Church must be able to adapt to different cultures without changing the doctrine or liturgy, which has been shown by the Catholic Church time and time again, on all 6 continents.

brocab:
Firstly Jesus didn't build a Church made of brick and mortar, this is where most Catholic's are wrong, Jesus didn't build His Church upon Peter nor Paul-He built His Church on the word of God, flesh and blood didn't give Peter the words to say truly you are the Son of the living God.. These words came directly from the Father Himself. Jesus then said Simon Peter and on this Rock I will build my Church.
Jesus also said when two or three are gathered He is in the mist of us. Meaning I don't even have to travel anywhere other then my home town to find fellowship with other believers.
Either I go over sea's there are always believers somewhere, either living in the streets or in their homes, or fellow-shipping in a Church building, Christ leads us where ever He directs us to go..
I do know the meaning of the Catholic's Universal, but your Church was the one that broke away from the rest of the world. We just need to study the history, about the crimes the Catholic Church had committed, and still they are committing today.

Your last post is disjointed and senseless. Guess you were half asleep while typing. You might want to edit.

Amyleb:
You don't get it at all. When we pray for our loved ones, it is done in the name of Jesus Christ, we make the prayer to the father through the Son ( Jesus, the WAY), with the holy spirit giving us the right words to say.

who told u the intercession of the saints isnt thru Jesus

Well if are having trouble understanding the truth about the Catholic Church, then I advise you to study up a little at least you will understand what the hell I am talking about.
And it won't sound senseless or disjointed to your own approval.

9inches:


Your last post is disjointed and senseless. Guess you were half asleep while typing. You might want to edit.

brocab:
Well if are having trouble understanding the truth about the Catholic Church, then I advise you to study up a little at least you will understand what the hell I am talking about.
And it won't sound senseless or disjointed to your own approval.

Take ur own advise, go and study so u can talk factually.

Hello Ubenedictus, to be honest I thought you had past on, but na, you haven't changed you are still the one sneaking and hiding around the traps.

Ubenedictus:
Take ur own advise, go and study so u can talk factually.

brocab:
Well if are having trouble understanding the truth about the Catholic Church, then I advise you to study up a little at least you will understand what the hell I am talking about.
And it won't sound senseless or disjointed to your own approval.

I don't have any trouble understanding anything about the Catholic Church. Your knowledge of Christianity is quite poor, let alone that of the Catholic Church. You can only teach confuse kids, not staunch Catholics like myself.

brocab:
Hello Ubenedictus, to be honest I thought you had past on, but na, you haven't changed you are still the one sneaking and hiding around the traps.

I am not dead if tha is what u hope 4.

No never, I would rather see you saved, and become a born again believer as I am...

Ubenedictus:
I am not dead if tha is what u hope 4.

My knowledge in the kingdom of God is quite knowledgeable, it is you 'who is the child confused.
Knowing Jesus is my first priority, and studying His word means I am going places.
And to study about the Catholic Church is a goal I have chosen to do, only because your comrades Uben and the others involved, had given myself the information I needed to know the Catholic Church had and still continual's to corrupt the nations with your lessor knowledge of the bible, that you call Religious knowledge.

9inches:


I don't have any trouble understanding anything about the Catholic Church. Your knowledge of Christianity is quite poor, let alone that of the Catholic Church. You can only teach confuse kids, not staunch Catholics like myself.

brocab:
No never, I would rather see you saved, and become a born again believer as I am...

By grace I have been saved thru faith, i have been born of water and the holyspirit and i am a believer.
it is arrogance to presume to know the state of my soul.

But wouldn't it make a difference in your life, if you had done what Jesus had done?
When He was a Child He was baptised to custom as a child, and when He became a man He had chosen to be baptised in the Jordan river by John the baptist.
See what you aren't understanding is, many of us are from different denominations, either Catholic's Roman Catholic's Jehovah witnesses, Mormons etc... And the way of baptism children were usually baptised as a child, and many millions today don't even follow after Christ-so what differences did it make in each of their lives? {None}
Jesus made a point by baptism as a man, because babies don't have choices, like men do.
Jesus said one must be born again and be baptised in the name of the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit.
We live by faith and choices-And how does a baby have faith to make any choice?

Ubenedictus:
By grace I have been saved thru faith, i have been born of water and the holyspirit and i am a believer.
it is arrogance to presume to know the state of my soul.

Jusmudi:
Catholics do not pray "to" Mary as an equal to God. They pray "through" Mary as an intercessor who prays to God on behalf of mankind.
If Catholics were to pray to Mary, this would imply that they are worshipping her as a god. But Catholics do not perceive Mary as a god. (i) They honour the Blessed Virgin Mary. (ii) The view Mary as the holiest of all the Saints. (iii) The accept the fact that Mary is the most successful Saint at obtaining Divine favours through her intercession. the above mentioned belief is partially based on the fact that Jesus is the King of kings and Mary, as the mother of the King, is the "queen mother." Then, when studying Jewish history, it is discovered that the institution of the "queen mother" was established during the reign of King Solomon.
In the Old Testament, we learn of the favoured position of the queen mother through the following words, "... then the king sat on his throne, and had a throne brought for the king's mother, and she sat on his right. Then she said, 'I have one small request to make of you, do not refuse me.' And the king said to her, 'Make your request, my mother, for I will not refuse you.'" [1 Kgs. 2:19-20]
Following the reign of King Solomon, many of the kings kept this practice. The mother of the king, through who the king received his throne, was trusted as a confident and advisor. So important was the function of the queen mothers in the days of the Old Testament that their names were listed in the succession records of the kings of Judah. [See 1 Kgs 14:21, 15:13; 2 Kgs. 12:1, 14:2, 15:2, etc...]
Similar to the intercession of the Queen Mother, when a child desires a favour and cannot obtain it from his/her parents, frequently the child will make the request to the grandparent to intercede on his/her behalf, therefore obtaining the favour that was being sought. This does not mean that the child is seeking the parental favour from the grandparent. Rather, the child is seeking the intercession of the grandparents before the parents.
Furthermore, Catholics do not differentiate between the living (in this world) and the dead (those who departed) members of the Body of Christ (the fullness of the Church.) The fullness of the mystical Body of Christ is found in the union of all the saints, past and present, here below and those above in Heaven.
In view of the aforementioned, it cannot be denied that those who were called to Heaven, including Mary, are still alive in spirit in the Kingdom of God that coexists with our world. As some non-Catholics pray through their deceased parents, grandparents or other biological relatives, asking these beloved departed persons to intercede before God on their behalf, Catholics pray through Mary to Jesus, taking advantage of her blessed position as the Mother of God.
This Catholic action affirms the prophetic and Divinely inspired passage that is found in the Holy Bible where it states, "Surely, from now on all generations will call me blessed." [Lk. 1:47] All generations could not call Mary blessed if she was not actively involved in the progressive Divine Plan that continues to develop before our eyes.
Indeed, all generations have called the Blessed Virgin Mary blessed, including this one, because she has never stopped interceding on behalf of the world, her intercession obtaining endless miraculous cures and other favours. The role of Mary in the area of obtaining physical miraculous cures is well known and documented in Lourdes, France, this being only one of the many holy places where the grace of God has been manifested through the Virgin Mary at apparition sites.
Rev;5:8(the prayer of the saints)
Rev 8:3-4(the prayer of Angels)
Matt18:10(Angels praying for little children )
Even at the wedding feast of cana
I Bliv some catholics in the houz can help me with some point. Tanks

Please, can you show us anywhere in the Bible where the Church prayed through Mary?

What makes you think Mary is more Saintly than you?

We are all Saints in Christ Jesus.

This doctrine is from the pit of hell. Through it away. Mary is not and can't be our mediator.

Jesus never even called her mother. He called her woman.

Jesus even despised her on one occasion when he was preaching

Matthew 12:46-50
46 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.

47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.

48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?

49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!

50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

brocab:
My knowledge in the kingdom of God is quite knowledgeable, it is you 'who is the child confused.
Knowing Jesus is my first priority, and studying His word means I am going places.
And to study about the Catholic Church is a goal I have chosen to do, only because your comrades Uben and the others involved, had given myself the information I needed to know the Catholic Church had and still continual's to corrupt the nations with your lessor knowledge of the bible, that you call Religious knowledge.

You need to study more to improve your knowledge. You're still a kid when it comes to religion and theologies therein. Give yourself more time and then come back for assessment.

How much time do you believe I need, maybe you should correct yourself in bible knowledge, and this will save time trying to explain the truth to you.
Even a child can understand the word of God. But a child can never understand the word of pagan religion, like you can.

9inches:


You need to study more to improve your knowledge. You're still a kid when it comes to religion and theologies therein. Give yourself more time and then come back for assessment.

brocab:
How much time do you believe I need, maybe you should correct yourself in bible knowledge, and this will save time trying to explain the truth to you.
Even a child can understand the word of God. But a child can never understand the word of pagan religion, like you can.

You would require an indefinite amount of time until you are assessed to have grabbed some knowledge. Take it that you are still at a beginner level.
Nothing to explain to me; you cannot give what you do not have.

A child can get an idea about the word of God when the child is taught the way children are taught. Not everything can a child's brain contain.
Go and learn kiddo.

Can I ask a Question? Calling yourself 9 inches, are you just rude, or are you bragging about yourself, so you want the world to know you are overly large
Its funny you know, every time the truth is spoken out, you and all the other religion's I have spoken too, the first thing you all do is throw out insults. To be honest you haven't the slightest idea, about any truth about the bible knowledge.
Most Catholic's will never see into the heavenly realm nor will they spend eternity with the Lord when the time comes. I hope you are aware of this information? There is only one way into Heaven with God, one must be born again, and baptised as a man in the name of the Father the Son and the HolySpirit. Do what Jesus did

9inches:


You would require an indefinite amount of time until you are assessed to have grabbed some knowledge. Take it that you are still at a beginner level.
Nothing to explain to me; you cannot give what you do not have.

A child can get an idea about the word of God when the child is taught the way children are taught. Not everything can a child's brain contain.
Go and learn kiddo.

.

brocab:
Can I ask a Question? Calling yourself 9 inches, are you just rude, or are you bragging about yourself, so you want the world to know you are overly large
Its funny you know, every time the truth is spoken out, you and all the other religion's I have spoken too, the first thing you all do is throw out insults. To be honest you haven't the slightest idea, about any truth about the bible knowledge. Do what Jesus did

Question unrelated to topic. Get your mind out of the sewer, it has nothing to do with what you are implying. Nonetheless, it's ok by me if people put different meanings to it. You are playing victim to the wrong person.

Put side by side both of our comments and see for yourself who is more guilty of insulting the other.

Most Catholic's will never see into the heavenly realm nor will they spend eternity with the Lord when the time comes. I hope you are aware of this information? There is only one way into Heaven with God, one must be born again, and baptised as a man in the name of the Father the Son and the HolySpirit.

No, I'm not aware of such information. Tell me which denomination or religion will have most of its members in heaven. We are not measuring here is Catholic versus other faiths, not holiness of the members.

People like yourself will only see the truth as an insult, My information comes directly from the word of God, it's called the bible.
Jesus said one must be born again before he can enter into the kingdom of God. {John 3:1-21}
{Matthew 28:19} The bible say's therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit.
Are you a born again? Or do you follow after another
Does a born again mean denomination to you? Jesus said when two or three are gathered in His name 'He is in the mist of us.

9inches:


Question unrelated to topic. Get your mind out of the sewer, it has nothing to do with what you are implying. Nonetheless, it's ok by me if people put different meanings to it. You are playing victim to the wrong person.

Put side by side both of our comments and see for yourself who is more guilty of insulting the other.



No, I'm not aware of such information. Tell me which denomination or religion will have most of its members in heaven. We are not measuring here is Catholic versus other faiths, not holiness of the members.

Then this replies back to you, if you believe such knowledge about a Child's brain, then with common knowledge wouldn't it be better to allow the child to grow, before baptising them as babies, so He/She could make their own choices instead of listening to yours?
Children grow through knowledge, and its the knowledge that gives them direction in life.
I was baptised as a Roman Catholic by force, and as a Child I never understood any of the religion, nor wanted too. I couldn't understand why the so called upper classed religious leaders of the Catholic Church would sacrifice young children, murdering them all in the name of their God, refusing to marry, and while burning with passion they sexually abuse Young Children mainly boys.
Enslaving the coloured people, taken them away from their love ones that most of those Children back then, never ever seen their blood families ever again.
In My country the Catholic Church ruled over the land, and we called it, the stolen generation.
Jesus was baptised as a child but when he became a man, He made a choice, as a man He was baptised by John the baptised.
l ALSO MADE A CHOICE AS A MAN, AND l TOO WAS BAPTISED AND BECAME A BORN AGAIN BELIEVER, NO DOMINATION IS NEEDED.

9inches:


You would require an indefinite amount of time until you are assessed to have grabbed some knowledge. Take it that you are still at a beginner level.
Nothing to explain to me; you cannot give what you do not have.

A child can get an idea about the word of God when the child is taught the way children are taught. Not everything can a child's brain contain.
Go and learn kiddo.

brocab:
My information comes directly from the word of God, it's called the bible.

Is the bible compiled by the early Church (now Catholic Church) or another bible?

brocab:
Jesus said one must be born again before he can enter into the kingdom of God {John 3:1-21}.
{Matthew 28:19} The bible say's therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Oh, that's the bible I am familiar with; the bible put together by the early Church under one earthly leader - Peter.

brocab:
Are you a born again? Or do you follow after another
Does a born again mean denomination to you?

Of course, I am a born again. A born again is a born again and it means a born again to me.

brocab:
Jesus said when two or three are gathered in His name 'He is in the mist of us.

So?

brocab:
Then this replies back to you, if you believe such knowledge about a Child's brain, then with common knowledge wouldn't it be better to allow the child to grow, before baptising them as babies, so He/She could make their own choices instead of listening to yours?
Children grow through knowledge, and its the knowledge that gives them direction in life.
I was baptised as a Roman Catholic by force, and as a Child I never understood any of the religion, nor wanted too. I couldn't understand why the so called upper classed religious leaders of the Catholic Church would sacrifice young children, murdering them all in the name of their God, refusing to marry, and while burning with passion they sexually abuse Young Children mainly boys.
Enslaving the coloured people, taken them away from their love ones that most of those Children back then, never ever seen their blood families ever again.
In My country the Catholic Church ruled over the land, and we called it, the stolen generation.
Jesus was baptised as a child but when he became a man, He made a choice, as a man He was baptised by John the baptised.
l ALSO MADE A CHOICE AS A MAN, AND l TOO WAS BAPTISED AND BECAME A BORN AGAIN BELIEVER, NO DOMINATION IS NEEDED.

See, you are even helping me to prove how shallow your knowledge of the bible is, let alone the Catholic Church. Now pay attention. If you had a good understanding of the Catholic Church, you would not have left. Maybe you were taught, maybe you weren't; but baseline is you did not understand. You weren't reading your bible and asking questions, and getting the right answers. You were at the right place but doing the wrong thing. Back then, you were neither a good catholic nor a good Christian and some things elude you because of your ignorance. You were like a student who never knew his school has a free bus service and had been spending money on transportation everyday. Only those who were informed enjoy the free ride. They know the time and place to wait for the bus.

Then you left Catholic and became a protestant and probably started reading the bible. But unfortunately, you are at the wrong place trying to do the right thing. You can read the bible, yes, but under the tutelage of those who have warped understanding of the bible. Denomination cannot put you in heaven but it is a big influence for you making heaven.

On infant baptism: If you believe it to be necessary for salvation to first believe in order to be saved, then that means all babies that die in the womb, all children who die before they have the use of reason, and all those adults who are severely mentally challenged would have no possibility of salvation. We do not believe that. We believe that we are only responsible for what we have the ability to do. In other words, we will not be held accountable for what we could not have known or done (see John 15:22).

Baptism is called by St. Paul "the circumcision of Christ" in Col. 2:11-12. As David mentioned, St. Peter, preaching to thousands of Jews who already understood the idea of a family covenant (they circumcised children) specifically said baptism was "for [them] and their children."
We have numerous people who came to Christ and the apostles could say to them that not only them but their entire "households" would be saved. And sometimes before they even knew who or how many or how old the members of their household were. That implies children being baptized (see I Corinthians 1:16; Acts 11:14; 16:15; 31). Just as in the Old Covenant with circumcision, in the New Testament parents are commanded to baptize their children and they are responsible to do so.

The thief on the cross is a reminder that we are only responsible for what we can do. He could not be baptized, thus, he could be saved by his desire for Christ. But that does not negate the fact that both faith and baptism are necessary for salvation (see Mark 16:16). If he would have been miraculously brought down from the cross, he would have been required to be baptized. If he refused, he would have been lost.

Faith is essential as well, but only if one had the opportunity to believe. But the point here is the injunctions to believe do not eliminate the possibility of infant baptism. The parents' faith and obedience suffices until the child reaches the age of accountability.

I was waiting for you to mention {Acts Corinthians and Col}

9inches:


See, you are even helping me to prove how shallow your knowledge of the bible is, let alone the Catholic Church. Now pay attention. If you had a good understanding of the Catholic Church, you would not have left. Maybe you were taught, maybe you weren't; but baseline is you did not understand. You weren't reading your bible and asking questions, and getting the right answers. You were at the right place but doing the wrong thing. Back then, you were neither a good catholic nor a good Christian and some things elude you because of your ignorance. You were like a student who never knew his school has a free bus service and had been spending money on transportation everyday. Only those who were informed enjoy the free ride. They know the time and place to wait for the bus.

Then you left Catholic and became a protestant and probably started reading the bible. But unfortunately, you are at the wrong place trying to do the right thing. You can read the bible, yes, but under the tutelage of those who have warped understanding of the bible. Denomination cannot put you in heaven but it is a big influence for you making heaven.

On infant baptism: If you believe it to be necessary for salvation to first believe in order to be saved, then that means all babies that die in the womb, all children who die before they have the use of reason, and all those adults who are severely mentally challenged would have no possibility of salvation. We do not believe that. We believe that we are only responsible for what we have the ability to do. In other words, we will not be held accountable for what we could not have known or done (see John 15:22).

Baptism is called by St. Paul "the circumcision of Christ" in Col. 2:11-12. As David mentioned, St. Peter, preaching to thousands of Jews who already understood the idea of a family covenant (they circumcised children) specifically said baptism was "for [them] and their children."
We have numerous people who came to Christ and the apostles could say to them that not only them but their entire "households" would be saved. And sometimes before they even knew who or how many or how old the members of their household were. That implies children being baptized (see I Corinthians 1:16; Acts 11:14; 16:15; 31). Just as in the Old Covenant with circumcision, in the New Testament parents are commanded to baptize their children and they are responsible to do so.

The thief on the cross is a reminder that we are only responsible for what we can do. He could not be baptized, thus, he could be saved by his desire for Christ. But that does not negate the fact that both faith and baptism are necessary for salvation (see Mark 16:16). If he would have been miraculously brought down from the cross, he would have been required to be baptized. If he refused, he would have been lost.

Faith is essential as well, but only if one had the opportunity to believe. But the point here is the injunctions to believe do not eliminate the possibility of infant baptism. The parents' faith and obedience suffices until the child reaches the age of accountability.

I was waiting for you to mention {Acts Corinthians and Col} these are the scriptures you all seem to head for, when you know you have been put into a corner.
With no evidence this theory doesn't actually claim the children in the houses were infants. And if there were children, they were old enough to have the knowledge to understand why they were baptised, in the name of the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit..
Your should look into the mirror and listen to yourself, think before you reply..
The Catholic Church couldn't teach the truth about Christ only because their hearts were far from Him.
As I had explain to you in the past.
How do you expect a child to be taught, the love of God, when that child is either sexually abused, either enslaved, sacrificed, and tormented by the unknowing God, a God of fear, and purgatory will never set them free because of your master's desires?
Please explain, How can a child understand the love of God, when the Catholic Church had changed the truth, the hole truth, and nothing about the truth, so help me God?

9inches:


See, you are even helping me to prove how shallow your knowledge of the bible is, let alone the Catholic Church. Now pay attention. If you had a good understanding of the Catholic Church, you would not have left. Maybe you were taught, maybe you weren't; but baseline is you did not understand. You weren't reading your bible and asking questions, and getting the right answers. You were at the right place but doing the wrong thing. Back then, you were neither a good catholic nor a good Christian and some things elude you because of your ignorance. You were like a student who never knew his school has a free bus service and had been spending money on transportation everyday. Only those who were informed enjoy the free ride. They know the time and place to wait for the bus.

Then you left Catholic and became a protestant and probably started reading the bible. But unfortunately, you are at the wrong place trying to do the right thing. You can read the bible, yes, but under the tutelage of those who have warped understanding of the bible. Denomination cannot put you in heaven but it is a big influence for you making heaven.

On infant baptism: If you believe it to be necessary for salvation to first believe in order to be saved, then that means all babies that die in the womb, all children who die before they have the use of reason, and all those adults who are severely mentally challenged would have no possibility of salvation. We do not believe that. We believe that we are only responsible for what we have the ability to do. In other words, we will not be held accountable for what we could not have known or done (see John 15:22).

Baptism is called by St. Paul "the circumcision of Christ" in Col. 2:11-12. As David mentioned, St. Peter, preaching to thousands of Jews who already understood the idea of a family covenant (they circumcised children) specifically said baptism was "for [them] and their children."
We have numerous people who came to Christ and the apostles could say to them that not only them but their entire "households" would be saved. And sometimes before they even knew who or how many or how old the members of their household were. That implies children being baptized (see I Corinthians 1:16; Acts 11:14; 16:15; 31). Just as in the Old Covenant with circumcision, in the New Testament parents are commanded to baptize their children and they are responsible to do so.

The thief on the cross is a reminder that we are only responsible for what we can do. He could not be baptized, thus, he could be saved by his desire for Christ. But that does not negate the fact that both faith and baptism are necessary for salvation (see Mark 16:16). If he would have been miraculously brought down from the cross, he would have been required to be baptized. If he refused, he would have been lost.

Faith is essential as well, but only if one had the opportunity to believe. But the point here is the injunctions to believe do not eliminate the possibility of infant baptism. The parents' faith and obedience suffices until the child reaches the age of accountability.

9inches:


See, you are even helping me to prove how shallow your knowledge of the bible is, let alone the Catholic Church. Now pay attention. If you had a good understanding of the Catholic Church, you would not have left. Maybe you were taught, maybe you weren't; but baseline is you did not understand. You weren't reading your bible and asking questions, and getting the right answers. You were at the right place but doing the wrong thing. Back then, you were neither a good catholic nor a good Christian and some things elude you because of your ignorance. You were like a student who never knew his school has a free bus service and had been spending money on transportation everyday. Only those who were informed enjoy the free ride. They know the time and place to wait for the bus.

Then you left Catholic and became a protestant and probably started reading the bible. But unfortunately, you are at the wrong place trying to do the right thing. You can read the bible, yes, but under the tutelage of those who have warped understanding of the bible. Denomination cannot put you in heaven but it is a big influence for you making heaven.

On infant baptism: If you believe it to be necessary for salvation to first believe in order to be saved, then that means all babies that die in the womb, all children who die before they have the use of reason, and all those adults who are severely mentally challenged would have no possibility of salvation. We do not believe that. We believe that we are only responsible for what we have the ability to do. In other words, we will not be held accountable for what we could not have known or done (see John 15:22).

Baptism is called by St. Paul "the circumcision of Christ" in Col. 2:11-12. As David mentioned, St. Peter, preaching to thousands of Jews who already understood the idea of a family covenant (they circumcised children) specifically said baptism was "for [them] and their children."
We have numerous people who came to Christ and the apostles could say to them that not only them but their entire "households" would be saved. And sometimes before they even knew who or how many or how old the members of their household were. That implies children being baptized (see I Corinthians 1:16; Acts 11:14; 16:15; 31). Just as in the Old Covenant with circumcision, in the New Testament parents are commanded to baptize their children and they are responsible to do so.

The thief on the cross is a reminder that we are only responsible for what we can do. He could not be baptized, thus, he could be saved by his desire for Christ. But that does not negate the fact that both faith and baptism are necessary for salvation (see Mark 16:16). If he would have been miraculously brought down from the cross, he would have been required to be baptized. If he refused, he would have been lost.

Faith is essential as well, but only if one had the opportunity to believe. But the point here is the injunctions to believe do not eliminate the possibility of infant baptism. The parents' faith and obedience suffices until the child reaches the age of accountability.

Amen Amen.

9 inches being a teacher as yourself I thought you would at least finish the scriptures with the truth, not half finish them without the truth?
{Yes the truth is there, Jesus didn't baptise the man on the cross, nor did He have too. He is the Christ}
And baptism is His witness to claim we belong to Him.
Christian baptism is one of the two ordinance that Jesus instituted for the Church, just before His ascension. Jesus said, "Go and make disciples of all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.
And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age {Matthew 28:19-20} These instructions specify that the Church is responsible to teach Jesus word, make disciples, and baptised those disciples. These things are to done everywhere {All nations} until the very end of the age. "So if for no other reason, baptism has importance because Jesus commanded it.
Baptism was practise before the founding of the Church. The Jews of ancient times would baptise proselytes to signify the converts, "cleansed" nature.
John the baptised used baptism to prepare the way of the Lord, requiring everyone not just the Gentiles, to be baptised because everyone needs repentance.
How ever John's baptism,signifying repentance, is not the same as Christian baptism, as seen in {Acts 18:24-26 and 10:1-7} Christian baptism has a deeper significance.
Baptism is to be done in the father the Son and Spirit, this is what makes it "Christian" baptism.
It is through the ordinance that a person is admitted into the fellowship of the Church {Jesus is the Church}
When we are saved we are baptised by the Spirit, into the body of Christ, which is the Church {1 Corinthians 12:13} Say's we were all baptised by one Spirit so as to form one body-weather Jews or Gentiles-free or slave, and we were given all one Spirit to drink, "Baptism by water is an reenactment" of the baptism by the Spirit.
Christian baptism is the means by which a person makes a public profession of faith and discipleship {Infants can not make this confession of faith and discipleship} In the waters of baptism a person say's wordlessly "I confess faith in Christ" Jesus has cleaned my soul from sin, and I now have a new life of sanctification.
A new believer in Jesus Christ should desire to be baptised as soon as possible {Acts 8} Philip speaks the good news about Jesus to the Ethiopian eunuch, and , as they travelled along the road, they came to some water, and the eunuch said, "Look here is water. What can stand in the way of me being baptised {Acts 8:35-36} Right away they stopped the chariot and Phillip baptised the man.
Everyone can believe in God {Mark 16:16} teaches that baptism is necessary for Salvation. As with any single verse or passage, we concern that it teaches through careful consideration of the language and context of the verse. We also fitter what the bible teaches elsewhere on the subject. In the case of the case of baptism and Salvation, the bible is clear that salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, not by any works of any kind, including baptism {Ephesian 2:8-9} So, any interpretation which comes too the conclusion that baptism, or any other act, or necessary for Salvation, is a faulty interpretation.
This is the most important question in or of Christian theology? this question is caused of reformation, The slit between the protestant Churches and the Catholic Churches. This question is a key difference between biblical Christianity and the Most of the "Christian" cults is Salvation by faith alone, or by faith but works? Am I saved by just believing in Jesus, or do I have to believe in Jesus and do certain things.
The question of faith alone, or faith plus works is made difficult by some hard to reconcile bible passages, compare {Romans 3:28, 5:1 and Galatians 3:24, and with James 2:24} Some see a differences between Paul { Salvation is by Faith alone} and James {Salvation is by faith plus works} Paul says dogmatically says that justification is by faith alone {Ephesians 2:8-9} while James appears to be say justification is by faith plus works.
This apparent problem is answered by examining what exactly what James is talking about. James is refuting the belief that a person could have faith without producing any good works {"James 2:17-18"} James is emphasising the point genuine faith in Christ will produce a changed life with good works {James 2:20-26}
James is not saying is justification is by faith plus works, but rather that a person who is truly justified by faith will have good works in His/Hers life.
If a person claims to be a believer, but has no good works in His/Hers life, then He/She likely does not have genuine faith in Christ {James 2:14, 17,20,26}
Paul says the same thing in his writing. The good fruit believer should have in the lives is listed {Galatians 5:22-23} immediately after telling us we are saved by faith, not works {Ephesians 2:8-9} Paul in forms us that we were created to do good works {Ephesians 2:10} Paul expects just as much a changed life just as James does.
Therefore if anyone is in Christ He is a new creation, the old has gone and the new has come {2 Corinthians 5:17} James and Paul do not disagree in their teaching regarding Salvation. They approach the same subject from different perspectives. Paul simply emphasised that justification is by faith alone while James put emphasise on the fact that genuine faith in Christ produces good works.

Amen................

brocab:
9 inches being a teacher as yourself I thought you would at least finish the scriptures with the truth, not half finish them without the truth?
{Yes the truth is there, Jesus didn't baptise the man on the cross, nor did He have too. He is the Christ}
And baptism is His witness to claim we belong to Him.
Christian baptism is one of the two ordinance that Jesus instituted for the Church, just before His ascension. Jesus said, "Go and make disciples of all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.
And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age {Matthew 28:19-20} These instructions specify that the Church is responsible to teach Jesus word, make disciples, and baptised those disciples. These things are to done everywhere {All nations} until the very end of the age. "So if for no other reason, baptism has importance because Jesus commanded it.
Baptism was practise before the founding of the Church. The Jews of ancient times would baptise proselytes to signify the converts, "cleansed" nature.
John the baptised used baptism to prepare the way of the Lord, requiring everyone not just the Gentiles, to be baptised because everyone needs repentance.
How ever John's baptism,signifying repentance, is not the same as Christian baptism, as seen in {Acts 18:24-26 and 10:1-7} Christian baptism has a deeper significance.
Baptism is to be done in the father the Son and Spirit, this is what makes it "Christian" baptism.
It is through the ordinance that a person is admitted into the fellowship of the Church {Jesus is the Church}
When we are saved we are baptised by the Spirit, into the body of Christ, which is the Church {1 Corinthians 12:13} Say's we were all baptised by one Spirit so as to form one body-weather Jews or Gentiles-free or slave, and we were given all one Spirit to drink, "Baptism by water is an reenactment" of the baptism by the Spirit.
Christian baptism is the means by which a person makes a public profession of faith and discipleship {Infants can not make this confession of faith and discipleship} In the waters of baptism a person say's wordlessly "I confess faith in Christ" Jesus has cleaned my soul from sin, and I now have a new life of sanctification.
A new believer in Jesus Christ should desire to be baptised as soon as possible {Acts 8} Philip speaks the good news about Jesus to the Ethiopian eunuch, and , as they travelled along the road, they came to some water, and the eunuch said, "Look here is water. What can stand in the way of me being baptised {Acts 8:35-36} Right away they stopped the chariot and Phillip baptised the man.
Everyone can believe in God {Mark 16:16} teaches that baptism is necessary for Salvation. As with any single verse or passage, we concern that it teaches through careful consideration of the language and context of the verse. We also fitter what the bible teaches elsewhere on the subject. In the case of the case of baptism and Salvation, the bible is clear that salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, not by any works of any kind, including baptism {Ephesian 2:8-9} So, any interpretation which comes too the conclusion that baptism, or any other act, or necessary for Salvation, is a faulty interpretation.
This is the most important question in or of Christian theology? this question is caused of reformation, The slit between the protestant Churches and the Catholic Churches. This question is a key difference between biblical Christianity and the Most of the "Christian" cults is Salvation by faith alone, or by faith but works? Am I saved by just believing in Jesus, or do I have to believe in Jesus and do certain things.
The question of faith alone, or faith plus works is made difficult by some hard to reconcile bible passages, compare {Romans 3:28, 5:1 and Galatians 3:24, and with James 2:24} Some see a differences between Paul { Salvation is by Faith alone} and James {Salvation is by faith plus works} Paul says dogmatically says that justification is by faith alone {Ephesians 2:8-9} while James appears to be say justification is by faith plus works.
This apparent problem is answered by examining what exactly what James is talking about. James is refuting the belief that a person could have faith without producing any good works {"James 2:17-18"} James is emphasising the point genuine faith in Christ will produce a changed life with good works {James 2:20-26}
James is not saying is justification is by faith plus works, but rather that a person who is truly justified by faith will have good works in His/Hers life.
If a person claims to be a believer, but has no good works in His/Hers life, then He/She likely does not have genuine faith in Christ {James 2:14, 17,20,26}
Paul says the same thing in his writing. The good fruit believer should have in the lives is listed {Galatians 5:22-23} immediately after telling us we are saved by faith, not works {Ephesians 2:8-9} Paul in forms us that we were created to do good works {Ephesians 2:10} Paul expects just as much a changed life just as James does.
Therefore if anyone is in Christ He is a new creation, the old has gone and the new has come {2 Corinthians 5:17} James and Paul do not disagree in their teaching regarding Salvation. They approach the same subject from different perspectives. Paul simply emphasised that justification is by faith alone while James put emphasise on the fact that genuine faith in Christ produces good works.

Amen................

Don't is go too fast. Is this a reply to my last comment or what? I did not see how this reply of yours relates to my comments. Please, go through my comments again and highlight the part you are addressing.

All, and if are still not sure about the bible truth, just call, and I will answer...It doesn't take rocket science to understand the word of God, The Lord wrote the bible simple...Even you could understand it.
I don't believe in infant baptism, and if that child walks his or hers own path "then what" does that mean he/she can live a life of a sinner, and still go into heaven to be with the Lord, without repentance, without forgiveness and without knowing the truth about Christ? Only because you believe infants baptism will give infants the keys to the kingdom of God? It doesn't work that way...
Infant's don't make choices, and the choices made by parents are not always the right one.

Jesus showed us by a good example, He made a choice, He came as a man and He showed the world He was baptised by John the baptise.
He told His disciples to baptise the nations In the name of the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit. Baptism comes under repentance, and infants babies haven't the slightest idea 'what sin is, and if they haven't the slightest idea, then it would be silly for them to be baptised and repent.
Baptising babies, doesn't count the cost for saving either the parents nor somebodies else's sins.

And if an infant died in the womb he/she is innocent of sin and I believe the child will return to God.
And when a Child is born unto the world then that Child is born into sin....Like you and me...

9inches:


Don't is go too fast. Is this a reply to my last comment or what? I did not see how this reply of yours relates to my comments. Please, go through my comments again and highlight the part you are addressing.

brocab:
I was waiting for you to mention {Acts Corinthians and Col} these are the scriptures you all seem to head for, when you know you have been put into a corner.
With no evidence this theory doesn't actually claim the children in the houses were infants. And if there were children, they were old enough to have the knowledge to understand why they were baptised, in the name of the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit..
Your should look into the mirror and listen to yourself, think before you reply..
The Catholic Church couldn't teach the truth about Christ only because their hearts were far from Him.
As I had explain to you in the past.
How do you expect a child to be taught, the love of God, when that child is either sexually abused, either enslaved, sacrificed, and tormented by the unknowing God, a God of fear, and purgatory will never set them free because of your master's desires?
Please explain, How can a child understand the love of God, when the Catholic Church had changed the truth, the hole truth, and nothing about the truth, so help me God?

You just don't get it. No one can enter the kingdom of God without being baptised.

In the Old Testament, if a man wanted to become a Jew, he had to believe in the God of Israel and be circumcised. In the New Testament, if one wants to become a Christian, one must believe in God and Jesus and be baptized. In the Old Testament, those born into Jewish households could be circumcised in anticipation of the Jewish faith in which they would be raised. Thus in the New Testament, those born in Christian households can be baptized in anticipation of the Christian faith in which they will be raised. The pattern is the same: If one is an adult, one must have faith before receiving the rite of membership; if one is a child too young to have faith, one may be given the rite of membership in the knowledge that one will be raised in the faith. This is the basis of Paul’s reference to baptism as "the circumcision of Christ"- that is, the Christian equivalent of circumcision.

brocab:
And if an infant died in the womb he/she is innocent of sin and I believe the child will return to God.
And when a Child is born unto the world then that Child is born into sin....Like you and me... [/color]

And when that child is born but dies before being baptised, he/she goes to _________?