PDBonline:

1) When they start talking about SPIRITuality then they are sending mixed signals.
2) Faith in God or a god or gods etc are VIEWS too
3) Dictionary definition changes with time.
4) Theism is different from religion. One is the believe, the other is the outward practice. Theism vs Atheism, Religious vs Irreligious. Therefore, an atheist may be religious

how can you then say atheism is a religion?

PDBonline:

Ask Him to speak to you in a way you cannot disproof if you want to know whether or not He exists.
If you don't want to know He exists, that's all together a different matter of self-inflicted ignorance.

Nope.

Even if you wish or pray it that i should start desiring to hear voices, that no other person can hear and see what no other person can see (hallucination, dementia, schizophrenia and delusion), it will not happen.

Am glad i can live among rational humans, as against among seriously challenged folks in religious/mental confines.

akintom:



Nope.

Even if you wish or pray it that i should start desiring to hear voices, that no other person can hear and see what no other person can see (hallucination, dementia, schizophrenia and delusion), it will not happen.

Am glad i can live among rational humans, as against among seriously challenged folks in religious/mental confines.

You need to read the Ops post again. You're beginning to sound like Dawkings.
In psychiatry, people's experiences are not used in isolation to define them as mentally ill.
May God help you face reality because, in my opinion, denying the existence of God and insisting so is the true delusion and living in denial.

PDBonline:

You need to read the Ops post again. You're beginning to sound like Dawkings.
In psychiatry, people's experiences are not used in isolation to define them as mentally ill.
May God help you face reality because, in my opinion, denying the existence of God and insisting so is the true delusion and living in denial.

Are you by any reason knowledgeable in mental health?

Are you conversant with the term "empirical facts"?

Are you conversant with the term differential diagnosis?

Are you conversant with the term syndrome?

Can you differentiate reality from idealization?

Is your God a reality or an idea?

When you attempt these questions, you will understand better

akintom:



Are you by any reason knowledgeable in mental health?

Are you conversant with the term "empirical facts"?

Are you conversant with the term differential diagnosis?

Are you conversant with the term syndrome?

Can you differentiate reality from idealization?

Is your God a reality or an idea?

When you attempt these questions, you will understand better

Lol.. I am not in an ego fight. Just concerned for you. But you are chatting with someone who knows something about the point he raised. Never brag about what you know when chatting with someone you don't know.

PDBonline:

Lol.. I am not in an ego fight. Just concerned for you. But you are chatting with someone who knows something about the point he raised. Never brag about what you know when chatting with someone you don't know.

I don't have who you are in mind, when am writing, it's your idea or claim that concerns me.

You can keep your concern for the reality or rationality of your ideas and beliefs.

akintom:


I don't have who you are in mind, when am writing, it's your idea or claim that concerns me.

You can keep your concern for the reality or rationality of your ideas and beliefs.

Don't get emotional. Let's discuss. Tell me how to differentiate reality from idea.

PDBonline:

Don't get emotional. Let's discuss. Tell me how to differentiate reality from idea.

The first test of your sincerity and maturity to engage me, is to first present your understanding of the difference between reality and idealization.


If you sure want to start from there

akintom:


The first test of your sincerity and maturity to engage me, is to first present your understanding of the difference between reality and idealization.


If you sure want to start from there

You can be so abrasively irritating with this your superiority complex. People like you see yourself as never wrong, unable to be corrected, egotistically rooted and such traits drive violent outbursts as they feel they must always be heard and not to be taught.

smh very ludicrous.

naijadeyhia:


You can be so abrasively irritating with this your superiority complex. People like you see yourself as never wrong, unable to be corrected, egotistically rooted and such traits drive violent outbursts as they feel they must always be heard and not to be taught.

smh very ludicrous.

na you commit am pass!

naijadeyhia:


You can be so abrasively irritating with this your superiority complex. People like you see yourself as never wrong, unable to be corrected, egotistically rooted and such traits drive violent outbursts as they feel they must always be heard and not to be taught.

smh very ludicrous.

Hmmmm......... Another belated dose of anti rabies has occurred.

Over Vet Dr......

akintom:


The first test of your sincerity and maturity to engage me, is to first present your understanding of the difference between reality and idealization.


If you sure want to start from there

I actually asked a sincere question since you've been using those words. Knowing how you interpret them could help me see from your perspective.

Reality is something true, something existing, what actually happens, something that is experienced; as against ideation which is just in thoughts.

PDBonline:

I actually asked a sincere question since you've been using those words. Knowing how you interpret them could help me see from your perspective.

I obviously didn't create those two words. Your understanding of them, as they relate to the subject matter - God, faith and beliefs.

Will be okay, if you kick start.

akintom:


I obviously didn't create those two words. Your understanding of them, as they relate to the subject matter - God, faith and beliefs.

Will be okay, if you kick start.

Reality is something true, something existing, what actually happens, what is being experienced; as against ideation which is just in thoughts and imaginations- something conceived in ones mind which is not true, has not yet happened and is not in ones experience.

So back to you.

While waiting for your reply, akintom, I should add that if someone is experiencing something, he can conceive an idea that he is not(probably because of ignorance of details or because he is in denail). It remains an idea or concept in his mind but it doesn't change reality.

KingEbukasBlog:
Hawking stated that the laws of physics could have been involved in the universe's beginning . It wasn't stated with certitude , it was a surmise. But how did these laws start to exist in the first place ? What accounts for the presence of the laws ?

Do these laws need a progenitor? The laws of physics after only descriptive. We can use them to give predictions but only as far as the speculation is well-defined within the predefined law itself. The laws of physics deal with space-time itself. Without space-time precedence can't occur. So how can you say physics needs a predecessor with any form conviction?

KingEbukasBlog:
The fact that people deny the existence of God is because they thought the universe could be eternal and since evidence shows that time and the universe had a beginning , they are wrong and indeed this suggests the universe has a creator, a transcendent one .

Once again, it doesn't. The Universe could have existed in some other form. The fact that it has a beginning is no reason to shoehorn a transcendent being. The very fact that you call it that shows how little logical sense it makes. How can you reliably tell me anything about this so-called entity? Your definition of it completely betrays the assured descriptions you've been giving me.

KingEbukasBlog:
She induces her hallucination , in simple terms , she creates vivid images of herself alone. OBEs involve experiences which include other people , observing events as they happen outside one's body . Its like being in my house and observing what goes on in another person's house without being physically present there .

Every single one of those cases is hearsay. If anyone truly believes he can project his 'spirit' then the person should by all means submit himself to a controlled experiment. A simple guessing game could prove this. It's rather funny that the only person who can do this and is willing to submit herself to testing is can't perform the outrageous claims made by the ones you are talking about. Like I've always said, you don't build bridges using principles that are based on hearsay.

KingEbukasBlog:
That's where religion or other philosophical doctrine come in . What's the purpose of my creation , why was the universe created?

Does it need a reason?

KingEbukasBlog:
In deism , the universe could be seen as an evidence of God's intelligence and creativity - God may have created the universe for the purpose of exhibiting his intelligence .

Isn't that circular reasoning? Assume God exists, then use reality as proof?

KingEbukasBlog:
In Christianity , God created the universe and man for his glory . And that man can have a relationship with God , praising and exalting his name forever and ever .

According to the Christian holy book, bats are birds. I won't base my views on such a book.

KingEbukasBlog:
There other religious doctrines that tend to explain the purpose of the universe . In Nihilism which atheists subscribe to , the universe and life are purposeless and meaningless - they are seen as products of chance .

Yup. You define your own purpose. I don't need ready-made instructions on what to do with myself. I'll give you one more try to come up with proof of your claims

PDBonline:
While waiting for your reply, akintom, I should add that if someone is experiencing something, he can conceive an idea that he is not(probably because of ignorance of details or because he is in denail). It remains an idea or concept in his mind but it doesn't change reality.

"Seun I HONESTLY believe God is real. In fact, I know He is my Father. I don't understand what you meant by "honestly believe" but I'll like you to discuss with me because , by dictionary definition, I have no doubt I do. Awaiting your response to my questions"

Let's start from this very statement of yours.

Do you KNOW or BELIEVE that God is REAL.

akintom:




"Seun I HONESTLY believe God is real. In fact, I know He is my Father. I don't understand what you meant by "honestly believe" but I'll like you to discuss with me because , by dictionary definition, I have no doubt I do. Awaiting your response to my questions"

Let's start from this very statement of yours.

Do you KNOW or BELIEVE that God is REAL.

Both. He is not just real. He is Father to me. Now, that's different from just saying He is my Father, which is also true. It's a description of my relationship with Him and experience of Him.. which takes you back to the definition of reality and idea.
Since we are from different paradigms, you won't understand what I just said except you are willing to understand. Arguing it doesn't change MY EXPERIENCE.

[quote author=PDBonline post=51214380] Both. He is not just real. He is Father to me. Now, that's different from just saying He is my Father, which is also true. It's a description of my relationship with Him and experience of Him.. which takes you back to the definition of reality and idea.
Since we are from different paradigms, you won't understand what I just said except you are willing to understand. Arguing it doesn't change MY EXPERIENCE.[/quote


Is there a means by which you can, make me understand this?

akintom:
Is there a means by which you can, make me understand this?

Paradigm shift. From "there is no God" to "there is God" or, at least "God may exist and I don't just know it yet."

So the question is, "How can someone who honestly believes there is no God start to believe there is God?"
Simple, just assume for a moment that God may exist and accept that you ought to know God if He exists. If He exists, He should be able to hear you. So just honestly say, "God, I don't believe You exist but if You do reveal Yourself to me in a way I can't dispute."

When you are done, you can laugh about it and forget about it. At least if God is real, He should know what to do. And if He is not real, saying that shouldn't hurt.

PDBonline:
Both. He is not just real. He is Father to me. Now, that's different from just saying He is my Father, which is also true. It's a description of my relationship with Him and experience of Him.. which takes you back to the definition of reality and idea.
Since we are from different paradigms, you won't understand what I just said except you are willing to understand. Arguing it doesn't change MY EXPERIENCE.

Tell us what you discussed with your father during your last chat.

Seun:
Tell us what you discussed with your father during your last chat.

What you need is a personal experience. Why do you think I should share my precious moments with God with someone who I think may be ready to mock it just because he lives with a different paradigm that makes him INTERPRET things differently?(I mean, put yourself in my shoes.)

It was meant to be private by the way.

PDBonline:

Paradigm shift. From "there is no God" to "there is God" or, at least "God may exist and I don't just know it yet."

So the question is, "How can someone who honestly believes there is no God start to believe there is God?"
Simple, just assume for a moment that God may exist and accept that you ought to know God if He exists. If He exists, He should be able to hear you. So just honestly say, "God, I don't believe You exist but if You do reveal Yourself to me in a way I can't dispute."

When you are done, you can laugh about it and forget about it. At least if God is real, He should know what to do. And if He is not real, saying that shouldn't hurt.

I have done this "reveal yourself crap" when i was a Christian.

You know what i saw?........... Nothing !

God idea is completely a subjective concept, that bears no consequence on my life.

Why will i have to start wasting my time, looking for an inexistent ubiquitous irritant.

akintom:


I have done this "reveal yourself crap" when i was a Christian.

You know what i saw?........... Nothing !

God idea is completely a subjective concept, that bears no consequence on my life.

Why will i have to start wasting my time, looking for an inexistent ubiquitous irritant.

You don't want anyone to talk about your father like that.

Anyways, did you expect to SEE GOD APPEARING PHYSICALLY? He may, if that's what you needed. He has done that to many already and they will be witnesses against you if you say because you didn't see God He doesn't exist. But most people don't need to see Him physically. How were you a Christian in the first place if you didn't already know in your heart that God existed. Why do you need another evidence? To soothe you physical sense? Those who walk with the living God MUST do so by faith. That's how God designed His system to be and He will not change because of me or you.

PDBonline:

You don't want anyone to talk about your father like that.

Anyways, did you expect to SEE GOD APPEARING PHYSICALLY? He may, if that's what you needed. He has done that to many already and they will be witnesses against you if you say because you didn't see God He doesn't exist. But most people don't need to see Him physically. How were you a Christian in the first place if you didn't already know in your heart that God existed. Why do you need another evidence? To soothe you physical sense? Those who walk with the living God MUST do so by faith. That's how God designed His system to be and He will not change because of me or you.

Well, we can rest the God matter then, since it's all about blind and empty faith.

akintom:



Well, we can rest the God matter then, since it's all about blind and empty faith.

Christianity is neither blind nor empty. When people are blind, they don't see what is real. The evidence of God abounds but atheists see nothing yet they believe in their unreal idea. We experience God because we are not foolishly trying to dictate to God how He should reign in His domain, rather we seek to understand Him just like we do for everything that is important to us.

Akintom, I think you gave up too soon. You never get anything very important and long lasting when you give up. Not that others have not experienced the "nothing appeared" or "no answer" you hinted in your previous comment but, like every successful researcher who have discovered major things, they didn't give up and now they have a different story from yours.

* Your annoyance against God and Christianity is like a student who failed an exam that others passed, yet is insisting that the teacher was bad or "he failed me". The question is: why you? When people blame someone else (in your case God) for their failures (in your case not seeing God when you prayed) they are not ready for success.

* YOU THINK I must be a real human being because you experience me here. I am because I am: I don't need you to see me or believe I exist as human or even prove to you that I am to be so.
So what makes you think you have to see God to relate with Him? I'm sure you continued the discussion so far because you believed that I am real. There are real experiences you block yourself from or see in a wrong way about God and faith just because of what you choose to believe. It is a fact in human psychology that your believe- right or wrong- not only change your perspective but determines your experiences because it affects your choices.

And just like if you choose to believe I am a computer program because I don't reply you like you want or when you prefer doesn't change my status (others can prove your lack of faith as just an idea in your head because they've experienced my existence in stronger ways) so is your lack of faith in God. You are the one not living in reality and patient not patient enough to see God.

* Whether you believe in God now or not, you will still KNOW without doubt that He exist. If you continue in your rebellious unbelieving state you will not like that experience before the Judge of all. But you can't have everything when you want it.

The behaviour of many atheists can be compared to a boy throwing tantrum because the parent didn't give him something he so much desires on his own terms. Tantrum doesn't change who the parent is, though it can destroy things precious to both parties.

THINK ABOUT ALL. I REST MY CASE.

CoolUsername:


Where did you get the notion that the Universe must come from a separate conscious entity? Can consciousness exist without matter? If it can, then provide proof.

Secondly, a transcendent being is as probable as Pikachu being real. First, there's nothing to indicate that the Universe needs one to exist. Second, it raises more questions and solves nothing: (what is its plane of existence like?), (how does it interact with space-time if it exists outside it? At least game sims work on the principle of electrons which affects everybody), (how can it exist without a creator? Does it also have an unfalsifiable creator in yet another dimension?). Third, there is no logical tie-in between this entity and what we know about the Universe.

It just seems to me like a placeholder for where our scientific knowledge ends in order to satisfy our curiosity. It seems like a cop-out and it prevents us from thinking.

Seriously Are u for real?

How in the world do u expect Ebuka to understand this? His brain is not even capable of doing that?




Nice one by the way.

PDBonline:


Christianity is neither blind nor empty. When people are blind, they don't see what is real. The evidence of God abounds but atheists see nothing yet they believe in their unreal idea. We experience God because we are not foolishly trying to dictate to God how He should reign in His domain, rather we seek to understand Him just like we do for everything that is important to usTHINK ABOUT ALL. I REST MY CASE.[/quote

When you claim that God is real, yet you can't provide a verifiable evidence of its existence, what does that make you? A blind claimer or rational claimer?

How do you understand what is not real? Can you understand Spiderman?







_{[quote = post=51254127]Akintom, I think you gave up too soon. You never get anything very important and long lasting when you give up. Not that others have not experienced the "nothing appeared" or "no answer" you hinted in your previous comment but, like every successful researcher who have discovered major things, they didn't give up and now they have a THINK ABOUT ALL. I REST MY CASE.}

Not the way you think. I did that when i was a Christian. My employed variables were that which the bible prescribed. But non of them revealed God as REAL. but a mere idea that bears no impact on human existence.




[quote post=51254127]
* Your annoyance against God and Christianity is like a student who failed anexam that others passed, yet is insisting that the teacher was bad or "he failed me". The question is: why you? When people blame someone else (in your case God) for their failures (in your case not seeing God when you prayed) they are not ready for successTHINK ABOUT ALL. I REST MY CASE.[/quote]

You rather assume too much, and ignorantly as well. I have never left the responsibility of how my life is planned in the hand of God. Not even when i was a Christian.

I never believed in God's exam, talk less of sitting for it. I through God idea out of my mind, when i discovered (via rational and factual works), that God idea is a joke taken too far.

PDBonline:


* YOU THINK I must be a real human being because you experience me here. I am because I am: I don't need you to see me or believe I exist as human or even prove to you that I am to be so.

You have your logic in reverse here. I didn't think you're real human, i KNOW for fact that you are real. I have the variables by which i established that. On this forum, robot can't participate, because i know that this forum has no software to enable that.



_{[post=51254127]
So what makes you think you have to see God to relate with Him? I'm sure you continued the discussion so far because you believed that I am real. There are real experiences you block yourself from or see in a wrong way about faith just because of what you choose to believe .[/quote]
How do you as human relate with the idea of robot? How do you relate with movie or literature fictional characters?}


[post=51254127]

It is a fact in human psychology that your believe- right or wrong- not only change your perspective but determines your experiences because it affects your choices.
[/quote]
You have just confirmed the very reason why the God idea, appears to be real to you religious folks.
Just as domesticated and conditioned wolf, will behave like pet dog.

PDBonline:


And just like if you choose to believe I am a computer program because I don't reply you like you want or when you prefer doesn't change my status (others can prove your lack of faith as just an idea in your head because they've experienced my existence in stronger ways) so is your lack of faith in God. You are the one not living in reality and patient not patient enough to see God.

Just as the experiences of the clinical schizophrenic are real to them of course.

I will never think you're a robot if you don't reply my post. Because i had verifiably established your real existence.

My lack of faith in the existence of Gods is based on lack of evidence to the fact of its real existence.

PDBonline:


* Whether you believe in God now or not, you will still exist. If you continue in your rebellious unbelieving state you will not like that experience before the Judge of all. But you can't have everything when you want it.

Just the irrational fears and ignorance, on which religion and religious beliefs were founded on since the stone age.

PDBonline:


The behaviour of many atheists can be compared to a boy throwing tantrum because the parent didn't give him something he so much desires on his own terms. Tantrum doesn't change who the parent is, though it can destroy things precious to both parties.

That's why i always educate you religious folks that, there's a difference between "rational atheists" and those who claim to be atheists as a result of religious disillusionment.

CoolUsername:
Do these laws need a progenitor? The laws of physics after only descriptive. We can use them to give predictions but only as far as the speculation is well-defined within the predefined law itself. The laws of physics deal with space-time itself. Without space-time precedence can't occur. So how can you say physics needs a predecessor with any form conviction? Once again, it doesn't. The Universe could have existed in some other form. The fact that it has a beginning is no reason to shoehorn a transcendent being. The very fact that you call it that shows how little logical sense it makes. How can you reliably tell me anything about this so-called entity? Your definition of it completely betrays the assured descriptions you've been giving me. Every single one of those cases is hearsay. If anyone truly believes he can project his 'spirit' then the person should by all means submit himself to a controlled experiment. A simple guessing game could prove this. It's rather funny that the only person who can do this and is willing to submit herself to testing is can't perform the outrageous claims made by the ones you are talking about. Like I've always said, you don't build bridges using principles that are based on hearsay. Does it need a reason? Isn't that circular reasoning? Assume God exists, then use reality as proof? According to the Christian holy book, bats are birds. I won't base my views on such a book. Yup. You define your own purpose. I don't need ready-made instructions on what to do with myself. I'll give you one more try to come up with proof of your claims

I've been singing the bolded to that boy since but he wouldn't listen

The Oaf called Dawkins