cloudgoddess:

What would an objective meaning for the totality of conscious human experience even look like? Does the idea of one even make sense?

Religion's answer is a chance at eternal paradise, but that imo isn't any more meaningful than what we already have going on. It's just a promise of more of the "good stuff" we're already capable of experiencing on earth. Merely a grasping towards more moments of joy/pleasure/love/security than the ones we're afforded as beings with limited life spans.

Ultimate objective meaning is only a concept that exists in human minds. I'd even go as far as to say that the phrase itself is an oxymoron. Meaning necessitates subjectivity; value can only ever be attributed by a consciousness evaluating it.


Sure, I don't see anything wrong with this.


Certainly they could justify them. That doesn't mean they'd be justifiable from the perspective of society they are a part of. As a social species, it is our nature to tend to both our individual wants and needs and those of the society we belong to. The individual and the society will never be perfectly in sync.

That isn't a cause for disaster. We can still work with it, which we have increasingly been doing as humanity has progressed. It's only religious/ideological notions that tell us there should be some perfect moral code that is totally objective regardless of time period or culture. In reality that just isn't the case, and can't be. As social creatures with complex desires and impulses that aren't always compatible, compromise is a must.


It certainly does. Our expectations paint everything we see. Even your sentiments of futility, and evaluation of lack of ultimate objective meaning as necessarily problematic, are based off of pre-existing notions about how things should "ideally" be.


I still don't agree that the nature of reality is grim. That's assuming that a life free of suffering is how things should be.

From what criteria are you judging his life as vain? Because he doesn't get to live forever afterwards? What would a non-vain reason for existing look like to you?


Not necessarily. Having executive function allows us to go a step further. Self-sacrifice, delayed gratification, all that good stuff. Also, pleasure and joy/peace aren't quite the same thing. A person can have peace without seeking pleasure. Look into Buddhist philosophy if you haven't already.


Again, what would this "cosmic value" be if it existed? How would it be expressed, what would it look like?


How are those things unrealistic?

They just have to be approached with a more humble and realistic perspective than the one religion provides. Which is that happiness (as in pleasurable feelings) can't be the constant state of things due to how our brains work (staying alert for threat, making comparisons, focusing on the negative during times of stress), but peace can arise naturally once you let go of the idea that life needs to be a certain "ideal" way, and do the best you can with what is here now.


So because pain and suffering exist, life is not worth prolonging or living? I can't see that connection. Why does the mere presence of pain have to be the defining factor of whether or not living is worth it?

I still can't see what is so horrifying about reality. Maybe I'm missing something but it seems your view is biased towards the negative for no perceivable reason. Sometimes people confuse being realistic with being unnecessarily pessimistic.


Who says that where we arrive has to be the point?

The idea of arrival at some point of perfection, complete absence of pain or what have you, is again, made up in my opinion. It's based on an incorrect view of how nature works (intentionally for or against us, rather than being a neutral re-organization of matter and energy that actually includes us). Painting life as "futile" and "horrifying" because it doesn't meet an ideal that was never real in the first place doesn't make any sense to me.

hmm, thanks for this "Sometimes people confuse being realistic with being unnecessarily pessimistic" Might just be my eureka.

But i guess if you're too realistic people can easily perceive you as being pessimist. Its had to be a realist and not be perceived as one, i get where grizzly is coming from.
I mean look, inspite of all the joy, tranquility, achievements and all the good stuff one gets to enjoy here, the end of it all is death no matter how much you wish it away. Now does this make one pessimist or realist?
Plus its hard to accept for most people that we are just neutral reorganization of matter, as our subjective minds will always try to decipher events as for or against us.

GrizzlyBear:
Intellectual honesty demands that we be sincere in all our contemplation and discussions about ourselves and our world, despite the perceived bleakness or harshness of the truth. It demands that we present a version of this truth, that is unbiased and unadulterated.

When examining the issue of our existence, we should also parse this timeless and cardinal subject with the tools of intellectual honesty.

When one accepts the non-existence of God, he has also tacitly subscribed to the notion of the objective meaninglessness of human existence. Because if God does not exist, then human existence has no objective meaning. Objective meaning in this context signifies a universally all encompassing truth about the reason for our existence.

It means that we are basically just biological creatures, jettisoned into this small, inconsequential planet in a galaxy among infinite galaxies, to live, pass on our genes, and die. We are practically just vessels for genes and proliferation of life. And everything that happens in our lives, is just a vain endless struggle for survival. It means that the universe doesn't care about us and everything that happens in our world is futile and of no inherent meaning.

A nonexistence of an objective meaning for our existence also suggests a nonexistence of objective morality. It means that there is no universal, axiomatic set of moral principles, and our definition and notions of morality, are relative and subjective.

Anyone who arrives at this philosophical realization, would definitely feel a painful sting of despair. Such understanding could engender a cascade of negative feelings that could prompt such a person to give up on life. Undoubtedly, the understanding of the objective meaninglessness of life and the futility of human existence, is the heaviest intellectual burden for man to shoulder.

But still, there are two ways humans can deal with this grim existential realization and loosen the burden.
We could embrace the objective meaninglessness of life, and create a subjective one for ourselves, or we could lapse into denial, and supplant the truth with consoling lies. History has shown that man has always preferred the second option, not to say that the first option is the logical one to take. Actually, both options are illogical. The first option at it's face, seems like a fulfilling substitute, but is it? Of course not. It's not fulfilling. It never is. It's cowardice and a bashful attempt to circumvent the realities of truth. It's deciding to live a hedonistic existence of vain delusion and comforting untruths.

Proponents of the first option tend to emphasize living in the present and enjoying it's benefits. But can we actually enjoy this present? The present presents it's share of pain and despair, which in most cases eclipses the intermittent ephemeral happiness. Given the unremitting presence of the agonizing existential understanding of the futility of our lives and the acknowledgement of it's bleak end, and the immanate vanity of the actions that precede it, the present will always be a sad, painful experience, interspersed with horrifying uncertainties.

Humans have the natural tendency to develop hostility towards anything that threatens their sense of self. We have been hard wired with the aptitude to develop resentment for things that tend to lower how we perceive ourselves. The realization that we are experiencing an existence of no objective meaning, lowers our sense of self. It portrays us as objects with no real purpose, no different from animals we perceive as inferior creatures. The default reaction to a notion like this, is complete rejection, and the creation of a framework that persistently reinforces this rejection. The most efficient framework that bolsters this rejection, is the framework of religion.

The framework of religion is so effective because it reinforces the rejection of the futility of our existence, by claiming for itself the objective meaning for human existence. It also solves the problem of the non existence of objective morality, as it provides a set "objective moral principles" for it's adherents to subscribe to.

Religion tends to the most difficult problem around existence and meaning, which is what happens after humans die. It does this by painting a dichotomous picture of the after life, one that is pleasing enough to entice people, but at the same time scary enough to elicit obedience and devotion.

In the face of our existential angst, religion seems a more preferable path to tread. It's an escape from the true horrors of reality and the agonizing acknowledgement of the futility of our existence. It gives people a reason to live. It gives people hope. It makes people feel special. Religion is truly the opium of the masses, because it helps alleviate their pain, by consoling and comforting them with dreams and hopes. It gives people a reason to be moral, a reason to do good. It's a rope that prevents people from falling into the torturing pits of truth.

Not everyone is intellectually strong to carry the weight of the acceptance of the objective meaninglessness of human existence. Some people are just weak and need religion to rescue them from shouldering this excrutiatingly heavy burden.

For this reason, religion will always exist and continue to persist. Despite the overwhelming avalanche of tenable arguments that will be put forward against it, despite the flaws and glaring contradictions that would be pointed, despite the overt negative effects that is observable in our society, religion will always have subscribers. People find it hard to let go of something that comforts them and makes them happy, and they will aggressively defend it against anything that tries to take it away from them, even reason.

Life is meaningless unless we had meaning to it. Add God to a Human and you get a Human-Being. God is the Prime Radient that makes up everything. The creator of all things which is the essence of a " Being" that contineues to make it to "Be" to infinity. This is what we all are. The One that experiences itself in different form( all of us). We all make up God.

Religion will always exist as long as Man remains illusionary disconnected from the God Mind. Religion is supposed to help reform Man or help point to the path of Godliness. And as long as Man remains on a level of self denial, delusion, he will always try to find God and will always be religious. The only way to destroy this unfortunate illusion is for Man to know himself, that he is the God he has been wrongly taught resides in the sky, but instead resides on the inside of him and yearns to be activated.

But Religion is a big time necessity for the Elite/ the wise ones to use as a tool to either positively reform man gradually before telling him to truth or a weapon of control to keep him away from activating his Higher Mind

But I am a positive minded individual. I think the thought of an unseen eyes watching you every moment has so far help reduce man's barbaric behaviours. Imagine the billions of Christians and Muslims not being under religious control.... It's not gonna be funny. Religion is a good tool to reform bad behaviours but the followers have always remained children and never adults who has grown to reach the path of illumination. A Christian will always be born again and will never become an adult.

Those who know the truth a very few and they are the secret societies most people see as Devils. They like it this way because no one likes Devils.

GrizzlyBear:


Anyone who decides to still continue living despite acknowledging this truth, is basically just betraying himself. He is more or less a coward. A coward who is afraid to let go, because he is tied to his world by hedonistic desires and vain hopes. All illusions.

I am a coward. I stare continuously at the ugly face of reality and deny knowing it. I cling to my desires and hopes, and allow truth fall off the edge.

What do you derive from this realization?

You gonna live the rest of your life as a coward? How does one see through that...

cloudgoddess:

What would an objective meaning for the totality of conscious human experience even look like? Does the idea of one even make sense?

Religion's answer is a chance at eternal paradise, but that imo isn't any more meaningful than what we already have going on. It's just a promise of more of the "good stuff" we're already capable of experiencing on earth. Merely a grasping towards more moments of joy/pleasure/love/security than the ones we're afforded as beings with limited life spans.

Ultimate objective meaning is only a concept that exists in human minds. I'd even go as far as to say that the phrase itself is an oxymoron. Meaning necessitates subjectivity; value can only ever be attributed by a consciousness evaluating it.


Sure, I don't see anything wrong with this.


Certainly they could justify them. That doesn't mean they'd be justifiable from the perspective of society they are a part of. As a social species, it is our nature to tend to both our individual wants and needs and those of the society we belong to. The individual and the society will never be perfectly in sync.

That isn't a cause for disaster. We can still work with it, which we have increasingly been doing as humanity has progressed. It's only religious/ideological notions that tell us there should be some perfect moral code that is totally objective regardless of time period or culture. In reality that just isn't the case, and can't be. As social creatures with complex desires and impulses that aren't always compatible, compromise is a must.


It certainly does. Our expectations paint everything we see. Even your sentiments of futility, and evaluation of lack of ultimate objective meaning as necessarily problematic, are based off of pre-existing notions about how things should "ideally" be.


I still don't agree that the nature of reality is grim. That's assuming that a life free of suffering is how things should be.

From what criteria are you judging his life as vain? Because he doesn't get to live forever afterwards? What would a non-vain reason for existing look like to you?


Not necessarily. Having executive function allows us to go a step further. Self-sacrifice, delayed gratification, all that good stuff. Also, pleasure and joy/peace aren't quite the same thing. A person can have peace without seeking pleasure. Look into Buddhist philosophy if you haven't already.


Again, what would this "cosmic value" be if it existed? How would it be expressed, what would it look like?


How are those things unrealistic?

They just have to be approached with a more humble and realistic perspective than the one religion provides. Which is that happiness (as in pleasurable feelings) can't be the constant state of things due to how our brains work (staying alert for threat, making comparisons, focusing on the negative during times of stress), but peace can arise naturally once you let go of the idea that life needs to be a certain "ideal" way, and do the best you can with what is here now.


So because pain and suffering exist, life is not worth prolonging or living? I can't see that connection. Why does the mere presence of pain have to be the defining factor of whether or not living is worth it?

I still can't see what is so horrifying about reality. Maybe I'm missing something but it seems your view is biased towards the negative for no perceivable reason. Sometimes people confuse being realistic with being unnecessarily pessimistic.


Who says that where we arrive has to be the point?

The idea of arrival at some point of perfection, complete absence of pain or what have you, is again, made up in my opinion. It's based on an incorrect view of how nature works (intentionally for or against us, rather than being a neutral re-organization of matter and energy that actually includes us). Painting life as "futile" and "horrifying" because it doesn't meet an ideal that was never real in the first place doesn't make any sense to me.

Meaning doesn't necessarily entirely necessitate subjectivity. There are times when the subjective meaning attributed to a certain concept can be uniform, at least to a high degree of uniformity. But the subjective meaning we could attribute to our existence, wouldn't be in any way uniform.

Buddist philosophy is a selfish philosophy that focuses on improving the experience of an individual, whilst ignoring that of others. It basically puts you on center stage, and shuts you out from the painful experiences of others.

The reality of life is harsh. And using impractical arguments and sugar coating truth to drive home your points isn't going to change it.

It's not just that pain and suffering exist, it also persists throughout our lives and the lives of everyone. Except of course you choose to deny the truth, or you are viewing life through your own experiences, but that puts a big question mark on your level of empathy. Painting the reality of life as "just how it is, and we are to make do with what we got" begs a serious question. It begs the question of how empathic you really are, and how much the experiences of others actually affects you. A statement like that typifies selfishness and the inability to genuinely connect with the painful experiences of other human beings.

Yes, we are just part of nature and we should take it for what it is and not define it by our preconceived notions of how it should be. But this doesn't take away the fact that the way it is, is a deeply saddening experience to behold.

Reality is horrifying. My views aren't deliberately geared towards negativity. They are negative because that's what life offers. People suffer and die daily, and in gruesome ways. Innocent people. Good people. People's hopes and dreams are stolen from them everyday, by circumstances beyond their control. And a thread of uncertainty constantly hangs over our lives, and yet we still decide to live. Why are we still living? For what gain? To what end? Why are we doing all that we are doing, despite knowing that we are all going to die and those we love are going to die, and most certainly in horrendous fashion? Why do we still exist, despite being consciously aware of the futility of it all? All humans do is create problems for themselves, and then struggle to solve them, and still never do. We organize our lives around vain hopes and stupid dreams, not realizing that our life is just one big nightmare that we only wake up from in death. Because only in death do we achieve true freedom and peace, devoid of pain and suffering and terrifying uncertainties that sucks out the little happiness from our lives.

My expectations about life aren't born from preconceived notions, my views are sculpted through the expression of my humanly traits, which include; the ability to understand pain and suffering of other humans, the capacity to feel pain, fear and sorrow, the capacity to love, which engenders sorrow and agony when those I love experience suffering, the ability to see humans for what they are - just complex chunks of meat, cursed with an unending desire to survive and seek gratification, and the horrible fact that I possess a consciousness that allows me to be well aware of this.

I am an empathic person, maybe you are not, which I strongly suspect, but everything that happens in my world, affects me to a certain degree. Denying that life isn't horrifying given the immense level of suffering evident in it, and the fact that the suffering outweighs the ephemeral happiness that many of us experience, is disingenuous and selfish.

The thing about humans is that we are all so convinced that the accretion of our sensory experience constitutes a unique individual, with a unique purpose and meaning. We are so certain that we are more than just biological puppets, because our model of consciousness allows us to, but biological puppets is all we are, and intentionally deciding to still be puppets, is deplorable.

Life is grim. It's an endless pool of sadness and worry. And I am not making this claim because I think life should be free of suffering. But suffering is part of life and there is nothing we can do about that. And as empathic beings, the suffering around us tends to affect us too. And why anyone would decide to still exist and reproduce, despite acknowledging this imminent suffering and constant witnessing of this suffering, and the fact that it outweighs the happiness, baffles me.

Deciding to keep on existing and advancing the progress of our species through reproduction is a denial of the glaring truth, greed, and a foolish and selfish attempt to continue this futile, pain-laden trend, by clinging on to illusions about our lives.

juicydiceyjoe:

What do you derive from this realization?

You gonna live the rest of your life as a coward? How does one see through that...

I don't need to derive anything. It's just a truth I have to accept.

Maybe I'm, maybe I'm not. It's the curse of consciousness. Evolving consciousness was the worst thing that ever happened to the human race. It prevents us from completely partaking in the biological puppetry, because although we are just puppets among other biological puppets, to be used, charred and disposed, we are able to see the strings pulling us. Only the boldest of us can bite off these strings and free themselves.

GrizzlyBear:


I don't need to derive anything. It's just a truth I have to accept.

Maybe I'm, maybe I'm not. It's the curse of consciousness. Evolving consciousness was the worst thing that ever happened to the human race. It prevents us from completely partaking in the biological puppetry, because although we are just puppets among other biological puppets, to be used, charred and disposed, we are able to see the strings pulling us. Only the boldest of us can bite off these strings and free themselves.

Seriously man, i always say the first homo that asked why are we here ruined our fun. That question should never had popped.

GrizzlyBear

I was on the net and came across something similar to your ideas, check it out.

https://www.brainpickings.org/2014/06/03/tolstoy-confession/

I think we give our life it's own meaning

GrizzlyBear:
Intellectual honesty demands that we be sincere in all our contemplation and discussions about ourselves and our world, despite the perceived bleakness or harshness of the truth. It demands that we present a version of this truth, that is unbiased and unadulterated.
....


....

....

For this reason, religion will always exist and continue to persist. Despite the overwhelming avalanche of tenable arguments that will be put forward against it, despite the flaws and glaring contradictions that would be pointed, despite the overt negative effects that is observable in our society, religion will always have subscribers. People find it hard to let go of something that comforts them and makes them happy, and they will aggressively defend it against anything that tries to take it away from them, even reason.

despite the perceived bleakness or harshness of the truth. It demands that we present a version of this truth, that is unbiased and unadulterated.

I want to suggest first that the 'perceived bleakness and harshness of the "truth"' is just as much subjective as any other perception of the "truth" a person may have had.

We regard the universe from many different perspectives. Each perspective will give us a slightly (or not so slightly) different picture.

A man who is depressed (yes depression is just a physiological state which has profound effects on our perceptions) will see a meaningless universe. That meaninglessness that he perceives is not objectively out there but is projected out onto the world from the 'diseased' mind of the depressed person.

A man who is Enthused about life will look out and see a universe full of Meaning. This Meaningful universe thus perceived is equally just a projection from the robust mind of the Enthused person.


The person that does not want to die is merely responding to an instinct in him. His survival instinct.

On the other hand there are people who are suicidal. It follows that suicidal people have lost that survival instinct, or the survival instinct in them has abated for some reason or the other. The reason could be purely physiological. Or it could be a reaction to a series of unfortunate events in a person's life.

Perhaps it's the level of Serotonin in the bloodstream that creates the effect whereby a person lives a meaningful life. Or perhaps it's something else. However there is a correlation between depression and the level of Serotonin in a person's bloodstream.

What the OP is doing is taking a viewpoint that is seen by such folks as are admittedly diseased psychologically and presenting that as the real objective reality. I beg to differ. I believe that it is just as jaundiced as the perspective of the Enthused person.
In other words, it's just another perspective.


Another thing that I have against OP is the presumption that religion necessarily gives meaning as an opiate against a meaningless truth.

Yet there are many religious people who become depressed, even suicidal. Piety does not cover up an sense of meaninglessness for them.

And yet again, there are many people without religion who are so full of enthusiasm for life and all of it's ridiculous follies. They live lives full of meaning.

How is this possible?


I believe that Meaning, or the quest for meaning, is something beyond mental calculations and little 'l' logic.


What gives meaning is a strong brew!!!

Deicide:
I think we give our life it's own meaning

Why do you think so? Do you know anyone that successfully gave his own life it's own meaning. Or was his meaning discovered?

juicydiceyjoe:

What do you derive from this realization?

You gonna live the rest of your life as a coward? How does one see through that...

warisdis?

PastorAIO:


Why do you think so? Do you know anyone that successfully gave his own life it's own meaning. Or was his meaning discovered?

human beings do it Everytime the only difference is that Theist eg Christians tend to deny it after all their meaning comes from God... denial!

Deicide:

human beings do it Everytime the only difference is that Theist eg Christians tend to deny it after all their meaning comes from God... denial!

Repeating what you said won't do anything to convince me. I asked Why you think so, and if you have any examples of such a thing happening.

I'm still willing to be convinced.

PastorAIO:


Repeating what you said won't do anything to convince me. I asked Why you think so, and if you have any examples of such a thing happening.

I'm still willing to be convinced.

and who said i was trying to convince you? see this one o...

Deicide:

and who said i was trying to convince you? see this one o...

That's not the issue. Me, personally, I am willing to be convinced. I would love to be convinced. I want to be convinced.

Whatever your reasons for saying what you said, whether to convince anyone or not, I would like to be convinced by what you said and if you could just back up and buttress what you've said with facts and reasons you would be helping me a great deal.

Could you be kind enough to explain Why you said the things you said, and could you provide any examples. Thank you in advance.

PastorAIO:


That's not the issue. Me, personally, I am willing to be convinced. I would love to be convinced. I want to be convinced.

Whatever your reasons for saying what you said, whether to convince anyone or not, I would like to be convinced by what you said and if you could just back up and buttress what you've said with facts and reasons you would be helping me a great deal.

Could you be kind enough to explain Why you said the things you said, and could you provide any examples. Thank you in advance.

Love, happiness, beauty, joy, awe, wonder, imagination, sex, passion, creativity, accomplishment, etc.

Basically all this and more gives our life meaning...

Now if we taliking about naturally what is life about? It's really simple..

Eat-survive-procrate(reproduction)-sleep

Deicide:

Love, happiness, beauty, joy, awe, wonder, imagination, sex, passion, creativity, accomplishment, etc.

Basically all this and more gives our life meaning...

Now if we taliking about naturally what is life about? It's really simple..

Eat-survive-procrate(reproduction)-sleep

Sp you believe that humans give their lives meaning for themselves because of Love, happiness, beauty, joy, awe, wonder, imagination, sex, passion, creativity, accomplishment, etc.

Yet none of these things are created by man himself, so I cannot really agree.

I get that you believe that life is just eat survive procreate sleep etc. That is not of interest to me, what is of interest is your claim that Men create Meaning for themselves.

I don't see how having 'love, happiness, beauty etc' contributes to a human creating his own meaning. Please can you explain further.

Hello OP, this is a very interesting thread that you've opened up here. May I ask you a few questions?

GrizzlyBear:

When one accepts the non-existence of God, he has also tacitly subscribed to the notion of the objective meaninglessness of human existence. Because if God does not exist, then human existence has no objective meaning. Objective meaning in this context signifies a universally all encompassing truth about the reason for our existence.

That is an interesting definition of Objective Meaning.

Wouldn't you say that the Big Bang Theory was an 'all encompassing truth about the reason for our existence.'?

Anyone who arrives at this philosophical realization, would definitely feel a painful sting of despair. Such understanding could engender a cascade of negative feelings that could prompt such a person to give up on life. Undoubtedly, the understanding of the objective meaninglessness of life and the futility of human existence, is the heaviest intellectual burden for man to shoulder.

If life lacks meaning (whatever that means) then so be it. However what is of great interest to me is Why Is The Lack Of Meaning Such A Bother?

Why should humans feel despair at the realisation of a lack of meaning? What is it about us, or in us, that so desperately needs to have Meaning.

And also further, How come there are so many atheists who realising what you've said still continue to live happy lives without a hint of despair?
and also, How come their are many pious Religionists who despite their beliefs actually suffer from depression and feelings of Meaninglessness?

These facts fly in the face of all you've said in the OP.

PastorAIO:


Sp you believe that humans give their lives meaning for themselves because of Love, happiness, beauty, joy, awe, wonder, imagination, sex, passion, creativity, accomplishment, etc.

Yet none of these things are created by man himself, so I cannot really agree.

@bolded it was Created by who? Yahweh? This was one of the reason i didn't want to continue this convo with you.. You already have a pre conceived answer but yet you said you are willing to change your mind? You my friend Id not ready to change his mind it's rather you want to mock what you don't understand or just looking for argument..

I get that you believe that life is just eat survive procreate sleep etc. That is not of interest to me, what is of interest is your claim that Men create Meaning for themselves.

Didn't you see Where i Wrote "Naturally" or are you just blind because it's argument you want?

I already explain to you how man create meaning for themself it's either you take it or leave it!

I don't see how having 'love, happiness, beauty etc' contributes to a human creating his own meaning. Please can you explain further.

No am not going to explain further thank you..

Deicide:

@bolded it was Created by who? Yahweh? This was one of the reason i didn't want to continue this convo with you.. You already have a pre conceived answer but yet you said you are willing to change your mind? You my friend Id not ready to change his mind it's rather you want to mock what you don't understand or just looking for argument..

Because of Yahweh you didn't want to continue convo with me. Haba! Of all the reasons I've ever read for copping out of a simple inquiry this has to be the heavy weight world champion.

It's funny what you have to say about 'preconceived answers'. There are certainly a lot of preconceptions flying about in this dialogue. But I guess the difference between me and you is that I realize that it can't be helped and so I make allowances for you.

As I said before and I still say again, I am willing and even keen to be convinced but you have to make a reasonable argument. Stating that Men create their own meaning in one post and then later saying "Love, happiness, beauty, joy, awe, wonder, imagination, sex, passion, creativity, accomplishment, etc.

Basically all this and more gives our life meaning..." .....

This is a blatant contradiction and suggests to me that you are somewhat out of your depth. I suspect that you haven't really thought about this subject matter long and hard.

I am not seeking to mock you my fellow nigerian, and only you can mock yourself by doing things like throwing a tantrum just because your have been asked some probing questions about pronouncements you make.

Didn't you see Where i Wrote "Naturally" or are you just blind because it's argument you want?

I saw where you wrote naturally. Did you see where I said that it was not of interest to me. ie it was not pertinent to my questioning. The part that was pertinent was where you said that Men create meaning for themselves.

I already explain to you how man create meaning for themself it's either you take it or leave it!

No am not going to explain further thank you..

Actually you have not explain at all how man creates meaning for himself. First you just stated it like a bland assertion. I then prompted you to buttress the assertion with examples and arguments. You failed.

In fact you more than failed. You responded by totally contradicting yourself. You said:



Love, happiness, beauty, joy, awe, wonder, imagination, sex, passion, creativity, accomplishment, etc.

Basically all this and more gives our life meaning...


This contradicts your initial assertion that Men create meaning for themselves as all these other sources of meaning that you've mentioned are not created by Men.


Like I said before, you are completely out of your depth and just a couple of questions have got you floundering and flailing about, and as is often the case, aggression is the next mode of behaviour once you feel insecure.

I've done nothing to make you respond to me aggressively. I haven't mocked and I haven't sought a pointless argument. All I've done is ask you a few questions that left you feeling insecure and threatened.

I suspect that your contributions are based mostly on emotions, possibly a negative emotional reaction to christianity. You've read a couple of books, formed a couple of half-baked notions from the books, and are now come to present your halfbaked position that you cannot even defend logically without resorting to fighting.

o, p.s. on the issue of preconceptions, I'm not a christian and I don't deal with all those perverse ideations that people make up. All I wanted from you was the answer to the questions I asked you.
I suppose you're quite new to Nairaland so you won't know me, and you won't know the substance of much of my contributions here. However that is no excuse for the level of preconceptions that you've allowed to becloud your mind.

PastorAIO:


Because of Yahweh you didn't want to continue convo with me. Haba! Of all the reasons I've ever read for copping out of a simple inquiry this has to be the heavy weight world champion.

It's funny what you have to say about 'preconceived answers'. There are certainly a lot of preconceptions flying about in this dialogue. But I guess the difference between me and you is that I realize that it can't be helped and so I make allowances for you.

As I said before and I still say again, I am willing and even keen to be convinced but you have to make a reasonable argument. Stating that Men create their own meaning in one post and then later saying "Love, happiness, beauty, joy, awe, wonder, imagination, sex, passion, creativity, accomplishment, etc.

Basically all this and more gives our life meaning..." .....

It is not a Contradiction "Man" choose not to Express this or Choose to Express it, it all about Choice! People can actually do the opposite of the mentioned...its all about choice therefor us..

Everything created by God the All-Wise Lord of the Universe, must naturally have a purpose which shall be fulfilled. Thus everything has a fixed age to exist. Nothing is permanent and shall pass away with the fulfillment of the purpose of the Creator. As the Universe had a beginning, there shall be an end of it. But the disbelievers turn aside from what they are warned of. Beside why are you ageing?

We have not created the heavens and the earth and all that is between them otherwise than in accordance with (an inner) truth, and for a term set (by Us): and yet, they who are bent on denying the truth turn aside from the warning which has been conveyed unto them. [b]46.3 Quran[/b]

Reason for creation of rational being

[b]And (tell them that) I have not created the invisible beings and men to any end other than that they may (know and) worship Me.Quran[b][/b]

Thus, the innermost purpose of the creation of all rational beings is their cognition of the existence of God and, hence, their conscious willingness to conform their own existence to whatever they may perceive of His Will and plan.

Deicide:

It is not a Contradiction "Man" choose not to Express this or Choose to Express it, it all about Choice! People can actually do the opposite of the mentioned...its all about choice therefor us..

Sorry bro. You are not making sense. And you still are not even attempting to answer my points of inquiry.

You said man creates meaning for himself.

Then you ran off a list of things that confer meaning to man's life. None of those things were created by man. That therefore is a contradiction in any system of logic that I'm aware of. Unless you have another logic system that you're using to reason.

I don't know what this mysterious 'this' that you're going on about is. Man choose to express 'this' or not express 'this'? Please what is 'this'?

How have you jumped to Choices? People can do the opposite of what 'mentioned'? I hope you are not losing your ability to think straight and articulate your thoughts. Abeg o, Na only simple questions I dey ask.

Are you suggesting that man no longer creates meaning as you initially said but rather Chooses to have meaning?

Auki:

And (tell them that) I have not created the invisible beings and men to any end other than that they may (know and) worship Me.Quran

[size=13pt] How sad! [/size]

PastorAIO:


[size=13pt] How sad! [/size]

All prophet s and messengers came with the same worship God.

And assuredly We have sent among every people a messenger (with the command): worship God…" (Quran 16:36)

Worship God is acknowledging God and doing what is right and avoiding all that wrong. He created you and He has the right to give you command or do you create yourself.

And He it is Who has created the heavens and the earth in six Days and His Throne was on the water, that He might try you, which of you is the best in deeds. But if you were to say to them: "You shall indeed be raised up after death," those who disbelieve would be sure to say, "This is nothing but obvious magic." [Noble Quran 11:7]

PastorAIO:


[size=13pt] How sad! [/size]

How is that sad?

Geist:
How is that sad?

Is loneliness not sad? God was lonely so he created people that they should know and worship him.

Is it not sad that someone should feel unappreciated? God/Allah needed people to appreciate him so he created them to worship him.

Still Sad!!

Auki:


All prophet s and messengers came with the same worship God.

And assuredly We have sent among every people a messenger (with the command): worship God…" (Quran 16:36)

Worship God is acknowledging God and doing what is right and avoiding all that wrong. He created you and He has the right to give you command or do you create yourself.

And He it is Who has created the heavens and the earth in six Days and His Throne was on the water, that He might try you, which of you is the best in deeds. But if you were to say to them: "You shall indeed be raised up after death," those who disbelieve would be sure to say, "This is nothing but obvious magic." [Noble Quran 11:7]

KingEbukasBlog:


Even atheist German philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche saw Nihilism as a dangerous philosophy . Though actually being an atheist makes you a nihilist . He rejected the idea of living without meaning or purpose .



I know Nothing of nihilism while all I've done on this thread is to expose the dangers of nihilism . Nihilism simply means living without meaning or purpose - this inherently inhibits any motivation to succeed , pursue knowledge or be morally good .



Nihilism has conspicuous flaws and I wont hesitate to point them out to you . You know nothing about nihilism !

Atheism=/=nihilism. This is the second time I've corrected this.

LightandDarkness:


Atheism=/=nihilism. This is the second time I've corrected this.

What the heck is wrong with you

Did I say Atheism was Nihilism

I'm not surprised you needed that strawman to stay relevant .

KingEbukasBlog:


What the heck is wrong with you

Did I say Atheism was Nihilism

I'm not surprised you needed that strawman to stay relevant .

"Though actually being an atheist makes you a nihilist"
Being atheist doesn't make you nihilist

Funny you mention trying to stay relevant, you're the person who creates an entire essay on Atheism every other day.

LightandDarkness:

"Though actually being an atheist makes you a nihilist"
Being atheist doesn't make you nihilist

OK

Funny you mention trying to stay relevant, you're the person who creates an entire essay on Atheism every other day.

OK