bandely:
Frank Lampard retires!

True LEGEND!

My man retires with over 300 career goals and 200 assists to his name.

Lord please make me as productive as Lampard, and keep the spirit of eunuchs away from me.

Ibime:


This is all based on style of play. Idrissa Gueye is the same. He wasn't in EPL 14/15 but he's top 10 on the list.

I know Gueye wasnt here back then, but I deliberately did not mention him to avoid style of play excuses.

It's like I said to you last week. Matic and Kante play in the exact same system now

From the Tackle numbers we can see that Kante is clearly doing the work that Matic used to do for Fabregas. So what is Matic doing?

If we look at our last game, the answer is 'not a lot'

nateevs:
Yes, true. The problem you have is that you don't accept that, that is only one way of doing it. There are other ways. For instance, like making another proven striker out of another system. This is akin to what JM did when he ditched Mata - a high scoring, high assist-making machine, for the low-scoring, low assist-making Oscar.

The only problem is here is that it seems to be genius when it not Pep but foolish when it is Pep.

Martial was Man Utd highest goal scorer last season Mou dumped him and didn't think of a way to work with him.

Kaka was the world best player in 2007, 4th in 2008, 4th in 2009 by the time Mou got to Madrid in 2010, he preferred Ozil a talented 21yr old to one of the best players in the whole world Kaka no one complained

Like you said its genius when others do it, its foolish when Pep does it

Nihilist:


I know Gueye wasnt here back then, but I deliberately did not mention him to avoid style of play excuses.

It's like I said to you last week. Matic and Kante play in the exact same system now

From the Tackle numbers we can see that Kante is clearly doing the work that Matic used to do for Fabregas. So what is Matic doing?

If we look at our last game, the answer is 'not a lot'

This is individual style of play, not team system.

Unless you want to go and sign Idrissa Gueye, you can see that most midfielders tackle less than Matic.

If Wanyama come to Chelsea, he would still tackle less than Matic because everytime Wanyama tackles, they give him yellow card.

It is those small players like Kante and Idrissa that launch themselves into tackles. If a big guy like Wanyama or Matic slide tackle you, he can break your leg and referees wont favour it. They have the strength and body size to shade you off the ball without needing to tackle.

That's why I don't like discussing yeye stats like tackling.

Ibime:


This is individual style of play, not team system.

Unless you want to go and sign Idrissa Gueye, you can see that most midfielders tackle less than Matic.

If Wanyama come to Chelsea, he would still tackle less than Matic because everytime Wanyama tackles, they give him yellow card.

It is those small players like Kante and Idrissa that launch themselves into tackles. If a big guy like Wanyama or Matic slide tackle you, he can break your leg and referees wont favour it. They have the strength and body size to shade you off the ball without needing to tackle.

That's why I don't like discussing yeye stats like tackling.

This isn't true.

That 2014/15 season Matic attempted and completed more tackles than anybody else in the league - including defenders, midfielders and strikers

So everything in your post is already out of the window.

The only thing that has changed is that we went a bought a guy in Kante who is a master at tackling ( see his stats below)

Now that Matic cannot offer us tackles again since his boss is doing that? What else is Matic bringing to the table?

The answer is nothing, because he's just a big for nothing fool. He makes less than a key pass a game so he's not creating chances. He makes fewer passes than Kante so he's not controlling possesion.

Okay maybe Kante does the tackling and Matic blocks passing lanes to intercept passes - na lie, Kante makes more interceptions than Matic too.

We might as well just play 3 3 4 with only Kante in midfield and squeeze in another attacker cos Kante is doing all the work anyway!

Manchester City legend Frank Lampard retires from professional football

Nihilist:


This isn't true.

That 2014/15 season Matic attempted and completed more tackles than anybody else in the league - including defenders, midfielders and strikers

So everything in your post is already out of the window.

The only thing that has changed is that we went a bought a guy in Kante who is a master at tackling ( see his stats below)

Now that Matic cannot offer us tackles again since his boss is doing that? What else is Matic bringing to the table?

The answer is nothing, because he's just a big for nothing fool. He makes less than a key pass a game so he's not creating chances. He makes fewer passes than Kante so he's not controlling possesion.

Okay maybe Kante does the tackling and Matic blocks passing lanes to intercept passes - na lie, Kante makes more interceptions than Matic too.

We might as well just play 3 3 4 with only Kante in midfield and squeeze in another attacker cos Kante is doing all the work anyway!

I have never made tackling or interceptions my basis for reading anything into midfield play so I don't why you keep bringing meaningless stats into your discussion with me. Discussing any stats other than goals, assist, km per game and passing volume is an insult to my intelligence and I will not engage in such discussion.

Go and tell this one to Conte. Anything else I say will be a waste of breath.

Ibime vs Nihilist always interesting...

Reading mode activated.

Ibime:



I have never made tackling or interceptions my basis for reading anything into midfield play so I don't why you keep bringing meaningless stats into your discussion with me. Discussing any stats other than goals, assist, km per game and passing volume is an insult to my intelligence and I will not engage in such discussion.

Go and tell this one to Conte. Anything else I say will be a waste of breath.

In the 2014 stats posted by nihilist, the only thing that Matic excelled in was tackles. That is the 2014 season that is the highpoint of his Chelsea career

In 2014 the tackle rates mattered for Matic because he was the leader in making tackles, in 2017 it no longer mattered because Matic cant deliver those tackles

Similar to how awards matter for Terry but dont matter for Iniesta

The greatest ever PL midfielder.. ...Super Frankie

Phoenix619:
Manchester City legend Frank Lampard retires from professional football

Lol This is the best you can come up with.

raumdeuter:


In the 2014 stats posted by nihilist, the only thing that Matic excelled in was tackles. That is the 2014 season that is the highpoint of his Chelsea career

In 2014 the tackle rates mattered for Matic because he was the leader in making tackles, in 2017 it no longer mattered because Matic cant deliver those tackles

Similar to how awards matter for Terry but dont matter for Iniesta

Have you ever seen me, Ibime, talking about tackling stats as a mode for comparing players in my 10 years on Nairaland?

You mean someone with common sense will see a 90 minute match with all the possession turnovers going on in midfield and think 3 tackles per match tells the story of all of that?

My exasperation with Nihilist is that I've told him many times that such stats do not even come into my assessment, yet he keeps trying to analyse them with me. It's like hitting my head against a brick wall. Like I said, such stats are just indicators of style of play, not of efficiency.

I mean, who can tell me that Felipe Luiz is a better dribbler than Riyadh Mahrez? Dribbling like tackling is something they record 3 dribbles per game. Even Messi, 3 dribbles per game. Please we should learn to leave rubbish for LAWMA and debate intelligently.

lordfalcao:
70% of the world is covered by water, the rest is covered by N'golo kante

Kante lost his virginity and won it back immediately

Feel so Emotional today. Frank Lampard retires from Football after 21-solid-years . You just can't hate him. That one player that made me become a Chelsea Fan. ♥ .. Unarguably The Best Midfielder to ever play in the PL..

Ibime:



Have you ever seen me, Ibime, talking about tackling stats as a mode for comparing players in my 10 years on Nairaland?

You mean someone with common sense will see a 90 minute match with all the possession turnovers going on in midfield and think 3 tackles per match tells the story of all of that?

My exasperation with Nihilist is that I've told him many times that such stats do not even come into my assessment, yet he keeps trying to analyse them with me. It's like hitting my head against a brick wall. Like I said, such stats are just indicators of style of play, not of efficiency.

I mean, who can tell me that Felipe Luiz is a better dribbler than Riyadh Mahrez? Dribbling like tackling is something they record 3 dribbles per game. Even Messi, 3 dribbles per game. Please we should learn to leave rubbish for LAWMA and debate intelligently.

I actually agree with you on some of these measures as my own is that there are several ways to kill a chicken, A DM is to stop attack whether its by tackles or blocking the path the main aim is to snuff out attacks. WHich is why those who always say Busquets cant tackle are foolish

Whilst the aim of an attacker is to beat defenders whether he does that by running, by superior positioning by dribbling or by black magic
which was why I always have problems with posters who will go on about Hazards dribbling this and that.

Back to you. what are the superior numbers/metrics/stats of Matic in 2014 that made him the best in the league? and how are those stats faring this season?

raumdeuter:


Martial was Man Utd highest goal scorer last season Mou dumped him and didn't think of a way to work with him.

Kaka was the world best player in 2007, 4th in 2008, 4th in 2009 by the time Mou got to Madrid in 2010, he preferred Ozil a talented 21yr old to one of the best players in the whole world Kaka no one complained

Like you said its genius when others do it, its foolish when Pep does it

Apples and oranges. These analogies have got nothing to do with playing style which is Pep's principle motive for freezing out Aguero. And yeah, get your facts right. Jose didn't just ditch Kaka 'cos Ozil came around. Injury can be highlighted as the biggest reason as to why Kaka failed at Madrid. He was out for eight months after he was operated on a long standing left knee injury in 2010.

nateevs:


Yes, true. The problem you have is that you don't accept that, that is only one way of doing it. There are other ways. For instance, like making another proven striker out of another system. This is akin to what JM did when he ditched Mata - a high scoring, high assist-making machine, for the low-scoring, low assist-making Oscar.

The only problem is here is that it seems to be genius when it not Pep but foolish when it is Pep.

Mata's low work-rate is his renowned weakness. It has been pretty obvious right from his days at the Mestella. In Aguero's case, Pep is creating a certain weakness out of him. This could be likened to when you ditch Messi for not being good aerially. Is it enough good reason to lose a great player when he can offer you so much more than that?

Before now, you and I have never considered a forward inability to chase down defenders as a major weakness. How come it is now one overnight?

Aguero knows what his business is on the field of play and believe me, chasing down defenders doesn't sit atop the list.

raumdeuter:


I actually agree with you on some of these measures as my own is that there are several ways to kill a chicken, A DM is to stop attack whether its by tackles or blocking the path the main aim is to snuff out attacks

Whilst the aim of an attacker is to beat defenders whether he does that by running, by superior positioning by dribbling or by black magic
which was why I always have problems with posters who will go on about Hazards dribbling this and that.

Back to you. what are the suprior metrics/stats of Matic in 2014 that made him the best DM in the league?

With DMs, observation is mostly visual. Are players running through Matic side wily nily?

The only stats I pay attention to for DMs is km run per game and passing stats. Km per game lets me know they are working hard and contributing to midfield pressing.

Passing volume also assures me they are involved in controlling the game and not giving the ball away in dangerous areas. I combine this with visual cognisanze of which positions they receive the ball in. If they receive in tight areas like Matic does, then more kudos. Some like Ramires used to hide on the pitch and never move toward the centreback to receive the ball. He only wants to receive the ball in space with no one around him. That is not midfield play.

Kaka was not injured forever. After the first half of 2010/2011 season he was back from injury and surgery yet Mourinho didnt use or tweak his tactics around one of the best players in the world then rather he stuck with a young and inexperienced 22yr old Ozil

How is this different from Pep not trusting an Aguero who isnt even Balon dor winner nor top 5 at any time and replacing him with a youngster

Just like Mata, Aguero has a low work rate. evidenced by the low miles he covered. Aguero is a striker for a previous generation.

Nowadays strikers are expected to put in work rate and close down defenders, Lewandoski, Costa, Benzema, Suarez, Auba etc all do it very well. Aguero will now be waiting for someone to feed him a perfect ball before he can be effective. WHile Aguero might be a better marksman than others his lack of work rate is a big minus

For the past 7yrs a striker workrate has always been important. since most clubs started playing a lone striker. That was the same thing which led Juup heyckenes to drop Gomez a better scorer for Mandzukic a hardworker

If his shooting skills were still very sharp then maybe he can have a case but in a case where his marksmanship has declined and he isnt even putting the necesary workrate for a striker nowadays

Bring Aguero to current Chelsea and see if Conte will drop Costa for him

Ibime:



Have you ever seen me, Ibime, talking about tackling stats as a mode for comparing players in my 10 years on Nairaland?

You mean someone with common sense will see a 90 minute match with all the possession turnovers going on in midfield and think 3 tackles per match tells the story of all of that?

My exasperation with Nihilist is that I've told him many times that such stats do not even come into my assessment, yet he keeps trying to analyse them with me. It's like hitting my head against a brick wall. Like I said, such stats are just indicators of style of play, not of efficiency.

I mean, who can tell me that Felipe Luiz is a better dribbler than Riyadh Mahrez? Dribbling like tackling is something they record 3 dribbles per game. Even Messi, 3 dribbles per game. Please we should learn to leave rubbish for LAWMA and debate intelligently.

These kind of yarns always annoy me because in this case I wasn't even talking to you. I was responding to lordfalcao and you quoted me. When I hit you with facts, you changed it to 'go an ask Conte' yarns

When I asked what Matic does, instead of giving me concrete answers, you listed running stats and said that he leans on players like Michael Bolton.

It's not my fault that you don't understand the terms that Whoscored and Opta use.

See their definition of dribble here

Dribble (Successful Dribble)
- Taking on an opponent and successfully making it past them whilst retaining the ball

The Dribble that you see there is the dribble that is successful. Mahrez attempts more dribbles than Filipe Luiz...the difference is Mahrez is doing his dribbling in heavily marked zones surrounded by defenders and midfielders and is often tackled and fouled. Luiz is at the back or outwide dribbling past the opposing wingers with little Marking.


At the end of the day, the dribbling analogy is irrelevant anyway and just another way you want to obfuscate the issue. Matic's best season ever in England coincides with his season high tackling numbers so I don't understand why you're trying so hard to divorce Matic from tackling responsibility.

OK what is it that Matic actually does sir?

Ibime:



With DMs, observation is mostly visual. Are players running through Matic side wily nily?

The only stats I pay attention to for DMs is km run per game and passing stats. Km per game lets me know they are working hard and contributing to midfield pressing.

Passing volume also assures me they are involved in controlling the game and not giving the ball away in dangerous areas. I combine this with visual cognisanze of which positions they receive the ball in. If they receive in tight areas like Matic does, then more kudos. Some like Ramires used to hide on the pitch and never move toward the centreback to receive the ball. He only wants to receive the ball in space with no one around him. That is not midfield play.

WHat are the miles run by Matic in 2014? WHat was his passing stats in 2014. Was he the best in the league in these stats to be named the best DM of the season

Ibime:



With DMs, observation is mostly visual. Are players running through Matic side wily nily?
.

Eriksen's 2 crosses for Alli

Henderson's pass to Milner for the cross to WIjnaldum

KDB terrorising that left flank

Adama Traore completing twelve takeons in one match on that flank.

I think it's pretty obvious that the answer is yes.

To rewind back to 2014/2015, Matic was the most dribbled past player in our squad and was one of the most dribbled in the EPL

The only stats I pay attention to for DMs is km run per game and passing stats. Km per game lets me know they are working hard and contributing to midfield pressing.

Again, this is why I think you don't actually know a lot about football statistics

Fabregas covered 11.45km per game in 14\15, Matic covered 11.67km per game. So roughly the same distance.

Fabregas was also making 80 passes per game to Matic's 63. That's a difference of almost 20 passes per game. Using your metric, Matic would be the defensive liability. We all know that wasn't the case

The difference between Matic then and Matic now was the Tackles.

Back then Tackles were his only deliverable. Now someone else is doing the tackling and we can see he literally has nothing else in his locker to offer.

Nihilist:


These kind of yarns always annoy me because in this case I wasn't even talking to you. I was responding to lordfalcao and you quoted me. When I hit you with facts, you changed it to 'go an ask Conte' yarns

When I asked what Matic does, instead of giving me concrete answers, you listed running stats and said that he leans on players like Michael Bolton.

It's not my fault that you don't understand the terms that Whoscored and Opta use.

See their definition of dribble here

Dribble (Successful Dribble)
- Taking on an opponent and successfully making it past them whilst retaining the ball

The Dribble that you see there is the dribble that is successful. Mahrez attempts more dribbles than Filipe Luiz...the difference is Mahrez is doing his dribbling in heavily marked zones surrounded by defenders and midfielders and is often tackled and fouled. Luiz is at the back or outwide dribbling past the opposing wingers with little Marking.

My brother, we are not fighting. You quoted me reeling off tackling and interception stats which is what exasperated me, as I have let you know many times that such stats are irrelevant to me.

Dribbling stats is absolute tosh. I don't even know what they are recording. Mahrez dribbles at least 15-20 times per game and still retains the ball.

Same with tackling stats. If Matic or Mikel put their big nyash between a player and the ball and rob him, it is not a recorded tackle. Any in-game stats where you see average of 2,3 or less than 10 is for the rubbish bin and not worthy of discussion.

hensben:
Lol This is the best you can come up with.

The least I could do for the City legend

raumdeuter:

WHat are the miles run by Matic in 2014? WHat was his passing stats in 2014. Was he the best in the league in these stats to be named the best DM of the season

Matic is consistently in top 10 running stats every season.

Ibime:


My brother, we are not fighting. You quoted me reeling off tackling and interception stats which is what exasperated me, as I have let you know many times that such stats are irrelevant to me.

Dribbling stats is absolute tosh. I don't even know what they are recording. Mahrez dribbles at least 15-20 times per game and still retains the ball.

Same with tackling stats. If Matic or Mikel put their big nyash between a player and the ball and rob him, it is not a recorded tackle. Any in-game stats where you see average of 2,3 or less than 10 is for the rubbish bin and not worthy of discussion.

Ibime so what were the stats that made Matic excel in 2014 compared to other midfielders

Ibime:


My brother, we are not fighting. You quoted me reeling off tackling and interception stats which is what exasperated me, as I have let you know many times that such stats are irrelevant to me.

Dribbling stats is absolute tosh. I don't even know what they are recording. Mahrez dribbles at least 15-20 times per game and still retains the ball.

Same with tackling stats. If Matic or Mikel put their big nyash between a player and the ball and rob him, it is not a recorded tackle. Any in-game stats where you see average of 2,3 or less than 10 is for the rubbish bin and not worthy of discussion.

If we've gotten to the point where we have to question the veracity of the stats that Skysports, BBC, The English Premier League and other reputable organisations including our own dear club pay for, then there is a big problem.

Obviously the follow on to that is, how can we trust some stats provided by Opta and then disregard some other stats presented by Opta as Tosh? In fact, why bother using stats at all?

raumdeuter:

Ibime so what were the stats that made Matic excel in 2014 compared to other midfielders

What stats are there for good positioning and intelligent pressing? That is the bulk of defensive midfield play.

His passing stats were good, as was his running stats. That is all I check to let me know if he is in the game. It is not necessarily the determinant of who's the best, just to let me know he is more than competent in those areas.

The other small volume stats such as tackling, interception etc have never been a consideration of mine.

Nihilist:


If we've gotten to the point where we have to question the veracity of the stats that Skysports, BBC, The English Premier League and other reputable organisations including our own dear club pay for, then there is a big problem.

Obviously the follow on to that is, how can we trust some stats provided by Opta and then disregard some other stats presented by Opta as Tosh? In fact, why bother using stats at all?

Some stats are indisputable.

1.) How many goals did you score?
2.) How many assists did you make?
3.) How many kilometres did you run?
4.) How many passes did you make?

If you notice my debates, these are usually the only stats I consider because they are objective and relevant.


These other stats you keep bringing up are subjective and subject to rules that do not lend themselves to the game of football.


If I shade you off the ball with my shoulder strength (eg Dembele) and take the ball from you, it is not counted as a tackle - SUBJECTIVE
If your touch is loose and I quickly put my body between you and the ball without tackling you, it is not a tackle - SUBJECTIVE
If Messi dribbles 3 players, but the 4th fouls him, no dribble is recorded. . . . whereas someone else might record 3 dribbles - SUBJECTIVE

You might even start hearing rules like "the dribble is not complete unless you leave the player 5 yards behind" etc. . . . whereas someone like Okocha will never leave you 5 yards behind but only needs you to give him one yard to play the cross or pass.

That's why you have stats like Adamu Traore making 6 dribbles per game and Messi only making 3 dribbles. Haba!


So all these stats where you hear, player X made 3 tackles and player Y made 1.4 tackles are dustbin stats.

They may be relevant for a manager looking for a signing that can implement an early confrontation style eg Jurgen Klopp, however if you are a manager that plays low block pressing, number of tackles is not important to you. The whole point of the low block is to squeeze space till the opponent give up the ball, not to confront them with tackles. They do not however tell you that Player X is better than Player Y. they only tell you Player X's style of play.


Generally if stats are low volume, they are not worth the time.

The only of these stat that made me sit up recently was hearing that Kante made 14 tackles against Liverpool.

Thank you super frank lampad #legend

The funny thing about this debate is tackling is not a skill you can lose so long as you are physically fit.

Anyone who could tackle in 2014 can still tackle in 2016 so long as his physical fitness is intact.

So claiming that someone lost the ability to tackle is a non starter.

The only reason why tackle stats should vary is different requirements placed on a player.

I bet Nihilist if we average out Matic tackle stats per 90 minutes from his worst ever season last year, they will be similar to 2014/15.

So nobody has forgotten how to tackle. Requirements are just different. You can never forget how to tackle.

Playing with Fabregas requires you to make more desperate last ditch tackles because Fabregas cannot keep up his side of the midfield press. Playing with Kante is a different situation because everyone is in position in the press.

Ibime:


Some stats are indisputable.

1.) How many goals did you score?
2.) How many assists did you make?
3.) How many kilometres did you run?
4.) How many passes did you make?

If you notice my debates, these are usually the only stats I consider because they are objective and relevant.


These other stats you keep bringing up are subjective and subject to rules that do not lend themselves to the game of football.


If I shade you off the ball with my shoulder strength (eg Dembele) and take the ball from you, it is not counted as a tackle - SUBJECTIVE

WRONG. This sort of event is measured by the DUEL statistics.



Opta: A duel is an 50-50 contest between two players of opposing sides in the match. For every Duel Won there is a corresponding Duel Lost depending on the outcome of the Duel.

If your touch is loose and I quickly put my body between you and the ball without tackling you, it is not a tackle SUBJECTIVE

WRONG. This sort of event is called a recovery

Opta: Recovery is where a player wins back the ball when it has gone loose

If Messi dribbles 3 players, but the 4th fouls him, no dribble is recorded. . . . whereas someone else might record 3 dribbles

Again WRONG

Opta: A successful dribble means the player beats the defender while retaining possession, unsuccessful ones are where the dribbler is tackled, Opta also log attempted dribbles where the player overruns the ball.

So you can see that there is no issue of subjectivity at all. The only issue is a lack of familiarity with the terms and events that Opta use to gather their statistics.

Kilometres run mean absolutely nothing because Fabregas and Matic ran the same distance in 2014/15

Infact if we Base the discussion on those stats you mentioned then there is zero reason for Matic to start over Fabregas.

If we Base the discussion on those stats that there is zero reason to consider Fabregas a defensive liability and Matic a defensive kingpin.

The reason why the stats don't match up to the logic is simple - they have no correlation with the work of a defensive midfielders.

Now would you like me to post Matic's duel and recovery stats for you so you can see if he flops there too?

Ibime:
The funny thing about this debate is tackling is not a skill you can lose so long as you are physically fit.

Anyone who could tackle in 2014 can still tackle in 2016 so long as his physical fitness is intact.

So claiming that someone lost the ability to tackle is a non starter.

The only reason why tackle stats should vary is different requirements placed on a player.

I bet Nihilist if we average out Matic tackle stats per 90 minutes from his worst ever season last year, they will be similar to 2014/15.

So nobody has forgotten how to tackle. Requirements are just different. You can never forget how to tackle.

I already did that, and Matic's tackling numbers were similar. His interception numbers went down drastically but that's not even the point.

The key thing I have emphasised is that Matic is no longer the tackling midfielder - Not that he has forgotten how to tackle.

Anybody that watches even one Chelsea game this season will immediately note that our main midfield assassin is Kante. Since Kante is doing all the dirty work, Matic should be freed up to contribute to the attacking play - Afterall this is exactly what happened in 2014/15.

Instead we are seeing a situation where Kante is winning 14 tackles in one game, while Matic did not even make a single one.

Matic who should have been our midfield play runner had 80% pass accuracy and touched the ball only 8 more times than Courtois

Wahala dey with Matic