chkil:
and to finish your logic of cheap weapons it's for poor country when you have the money you can get the best you want ,algeria for exemple buy from the est (russia , china) and from west (germany , england , italy, france) , so they can take the best that they want , and if they focus on russian for strategic weapons ( MBT , aicrafts fighter , air defenses sytems , submarines) , i 'm sur you know it's not because they don't have money for

It's a trade-off. You're not putting all your political eggs in one basket if you buy from multiple countries. Meaning, you're not dependent on the whims of one government to keep your military supplied.

But on the other hand, you now have separate logistics tails and weapons without interchangeable ammo or parts (nothing to worry about if you're a big country, but for most African armies on a limited budget this is a serious consideration).

Hrmnn:


It's a trade-off. You're not putting all your political eggs in one basket if you buy from multiple countries. Meaning, you're not dependent on the whims of one government to keep your military supplied.

But on the other hand, you now have separate logistics tails and weapons without interchangeable ammo or parts (nothing to worry about if you're a big country, but for most African armies on a limited budget this is a serious consideration).

Thus best answer is to build it yourself!! But yeah i agree 100%!!

jln115:

Thus best answer is to build it yourself!! But yeah i agree 100%!!

Only the big countries can build entirely by themselves. Political considerations still remain a focal point. Hence countries like RSA still rely heavily on European parts.

Henry240:


Only the big countries can build entirely by themselves. Political considerations still remain a focal point. Hence countries like RSA still rely heavily on European parts.

Agree, self reliance goes hand in hand with having a strong defence industry, ours is still growing!! we still rely heavily on Western components with regards to our Air force and Navy , like we traditionally have even during the SADF days.

But we are making great strides, all our Oryx and Rooivalk spares are manufactured locally through AHZA and Denel Aviation take care of all MRO of which its an accredited MRO service centre for Super Puma, Puma and Squirrel aircraft! C130 MRO is taken care of by the local Astra company for the most part!

As for our Army, its pretty much self-reliant even the Engines in our Rooikat Ratel SAMIL Mamba Casspir are locally manufactured!

And lastly there is no country that is 100% self-sufficient, even the USA imports tons of parts for their vehicles,Aircraft,Ships ect ect Sometime its just much cheaper and more efficient to import parts than manufacturing themselves!

jln115:

Agree, self reliance goes hand in hand with having a strong defence industry, ours is still growing!! we still really heavily on Western components with regards to our Air force and Navy , like we traditionally have even during the SADF days.

But we are making great strides, all our Oryx and Rooivalk spares are manufactured locally through AHZA and Denel Aviation take care of all MRO of which its an accredited MRO service centre for Super Puma, Puma and Squirrel aircraft! C130 MRO is taken care of by the local Astra company for the most part!

As for our Army, its pretty much self-reliant even the Engines in our Rooikat Ratel SAMIL Mamba Casspir are locally manufactured!

Locally manufactured yes, but mostly Deutz types, which is a German design. Any tiffie will tell you that.

I know the engines are built and assembled locally by Atlantis, which also subcontracts a lot of the parts to other companies in RSA but I can't say with absolute certainty that they're 100% indigenous. Even during sanctions the Germans sold the old government a lot of dual-use automotive parts (especially for the Rooikat programme).

It's always like this when you talk about foreign designs built under licence - you're never really sure how much of it is local and how much of it uses imported technical components.

Hrmnn:


Locally manufactured yes, but mostly Deutz types, which is a German design. Any tiffie will tell you that.

I know the engines are built and assembled locally by Atlantis, which also subcontracts a lot of the parts to other companies in RSA but I can't say with absolute certainty that they're 100% indigenous. Even during sanctions the Germans sold the old government a lot of dual-use automotive parts (especially for the Rooikat programme).

It's always like this when you talk about foreign designs built under licence - you're never really sure how much of it is local and how much of it uses imported technical components.

Atlantis engines were basically licensed built Mercedes engines, but as you said one can never be 100% sure if its entirely SAfrcn.....But IMO having the capability to maintain equipment with out any necessity to import great a majority of spares from foreign companies is the most important regardless of the fact if the vehicle was manufactured locally or not.....case and point are the Oryx and Rooivalk, both use French engine and gearboxes yet Denel Aviation and AHZA are capable of carrying out full MRO without the need to import any spares, and in that regard im 100% confident our Army for one is fully self-sustainable.

Please can someone create a Whatsapp group.. For this topic...this is my number:

Lionel4power

Henry24o:
Lionel4power

threat level is dynamic and changes rapidly.

.
before we had the boko haram issue.
.
before we had sea pirates issue.
.
before we had niger delta issue.
.
now we have fulani herdsmen issue.
.
boko haram has been dealt with sufficiently.
.
sea pirates has been dealt with sufficiently.
.
niger delta crises is ongoing and it seems negotiations and dialogue is the route the FG is taking.
.
fulani herdsmen is a police and DSS job. no need for military input for now.

.
but guns will still flow from libya into niger then nigeria because we didn't enforce our resolve enough. niger, chad dont care.

.
am I wrong or right?

lionel4power:
threat level is dynamic and changes rapidly.

.
before we had the boko haram issue.
.
before we had sea pirates issue.
.
before we had niger delta issue.
.
now we have fulani herdsmen issue.
.
boko haram has been dealt with sufficiently.
.
sea pirates has been dealt with sufficiently.
.
niger delta crises is ongoing and it seems negotiations and dialogue is the route the FG is taking.
.
fulani herdsmen is a police and DSS job. no need for military input for now.

.
but guns will still flow from libya into niger then nigeria because we didn't enforce our resolve enough. niger, chad dont care.

.
am I wrong or right?

Let me take it further back for you. Before we had all those, in the 1800's we had Usman Don fodio, the Civil war in the 60s, in the 70's we had Mastastine, in the 80's Kano riots - till today and the ones you've listed.

Based on these, we can say our threat assessment comprises serious threats to National Security, which are primarily internal and unconventional in nature. As such our defence posturing has to reflect this reality. Now, we are talking from the 1800s - till today, over 120 years at-least.

Based on this threat assessment, Nigeria is the most equipped country in Sub-Saharan Africa to deal with conflicts of this nature. This all there is to it, whether in the Air, on land or on the sea.

Now, the secondary posture which is conventional, we have all that is required, however in various state of disrepair. Infact, I have posted tons of photos which prove that are conventional capability is been built up. Our Combattante missile crafts would soon be out of the docks, NNS Damisa, NNS Ayam and NNS Ekun.

Our mine hunters are currently are out of the docks and out to sea. The Nigerian navy has a revised-Navy plan which clearly states a need for a Submarine, 4 missile crafts and new Frigates.

... The fact about the matter is, we would not spend on Frigates and Submarines when we have billions of dollars stolen in Crude oil theft and one of the world's most dangerous waters. It is not possible, for this threat, we have invested in 6 OPVs, NNS Thunder, NNS Okpobana, NNS Prosperity, NNS Centenary, NNS Unity, Seaward Defence Boat III would be 50 meters long, so I'm including it.

We have purchased 36 IPVs, and more than 600 IPCs. We have done this because we have a threat, a serve threat to National Security. There has been a threat assessment, you think if South-Africa was facing the same threat as Nigeria they would go take a 7 billion dollars loan from banks to invest in conventional threats, it's not possible. Today, South-Africa is struggling to buy vessels for Project Biro for years.

Nigeria is militarily involved in 9 different countries apart from our own. No country in Africa has troops this deployed. Our neigbours are too punny to be a threat to Nigeria. Niger can barely feed, how is the country going to stop arms, even at that we constituted and lead the Lake Chad Basin Authority which is based in Baga and headquarted in Bosso or Tchad.


I agree we need a credible deterrence, but are you saying we should neglect and abandon our current national security threats to have a credible Conventional deterrence at whose expense, when for the past 150 years our threats have been unconventional. It's not possible.

......

first of all, no offence but I dont think there are credible defence planners in nigeria. only bunch of politicians calling the shots. (my opinion)

Henry24o:


I understand fully that you don't have the information that our defence planners are privy to, but from what we can see, what is Nigeria's threat assessment?

secondly...

Henry24o:


Let me take it further back for you. Before we had all those, in the 1800's we had Usman Don fodio, the Civil war in the 60s, in the 70's we had Mastastine, in the 80's Kano riots - till today and the ones you've listed.

Based on these, we can say our threat assessment comprises serious threats to National Security, which are primarily internal and unconventional in nature. As such our defence posturing has to reflect this reality. Now, we are talking from the 1800s - till today, over 120 years at-least.

Based on this threat assessment, Nigeria is the most equipped country in Sub-Saharan Africa to deal with conflicts of this nature. This all there is to it, whether in the Air, on land or on the sea.

Now, the secondary posture which is conventional, we have all that is required, however in various state of disrepair. Infact, I have posted tons of photos which prove that are conventional capability is been built up. Our Combattante missile crafts would soon be out of the docks, NNS Damisa, NNS Ayam and NNS Ekun.

Our mine hunters are currently are out of the docks and out to sea. The Nigerian navy has a revised-Navy plan which clearly states a need for a Submarine, 4 missile crafts and new Frigates.

... The fact about the matter is, we would not spend on Frigates and Submarines when we have billions of dollars stolen in Crude oil theft and one of the world's most dangerous waters. It is not possible, for this threat, we have invested in 6 OPVs, NNS Thunder, NNS Okpobana, NNS Prosperity, NNS Centenary, NNS Unity, Seaward Defence Boat III would be 50 meters long, so I'm including it.

We have purchased 36 IPVs, and more than 600 IPCs. We have done this because we have a threat, a serve threat to National Security. There has been a threat assessment, you think if South-Africa was facing the same threat as Nigeria they would go take a 7 billion dollars loan from banks to invest in conventional threats, it's not possible. Today, South-Africa is struggling to buy vessels for Project Biro for years.

Nigeria is militarily involved in 9 different countries apart from our own. No country in Africa has troops this deployed. Our neigbours are too punny to be a threat to Nigeria. Niger can barely feed, how is the country going to stop arms, even at that we constituted and lead the Lake Chad Basin Authority which is based in Baga and headquarted in Bosso or Tchad.


I agree we need a credible deterrence, but are you saying we should neglect and abandon our current national security threats to have a credible Conventional deterrence at whose expense, when for the past 150 years our threats have been unconventional. It's not possible.

......

as I said before threat levels are dynamic and change rapidly. threat assessment is relative depending on how you look at it.
there are current threat, existential threat, possible threat and immediate threat.
.
since we Nigerians are always bedeviled by insurgents since the 1800 doesn't that mean that we should atleast be able to manage such situation easily? atleast we should be good at it.
.

if our threat assessment is all about localised forces, maitasine, boko haram, niger delta militant et al. why did we perform badly INITIALLY during the initial phase of boko haram? why did we start the reposturing just few years back? only after terrifying defeats by BH? WHAT happened to threat assessment then.

you said Nigeria is the best equipped country to deal such threat.
there are different ways to deal with localised threats. using different indigenous methods is one of them.
.
the conventional threat you talked about. you're calling ships names but those vessels do not present a formidable or credible determent.
.
for determent we need more than bareboned opvs.
.
how long are we going to keep saying threat assessment? if we dont get it right we will never get it right.
.
all country in the world have such threat level.. insurgency never ends.

.
.
Nigerian armed forces is capable of dealing with any insurgent group before, now and tomorrow...that has never been a problem sometimes I feel that they show too much restraint.
.
I personally hold the believe that before you start talking of immediate threats you should be able to
defend yourself or atleast able to hold your ground from external threats.
.
I do not wish to spoil your thread but sometimes somebody has to be the odd one once in a while.

lionel4power:

first of all, no offence but I dont think there are credible defence planners in nigeria. only bunch of politicians calling the shots. (my opinion)


secondly...



as I said before threat levels are dynamic and change rapidly. threat assessment is relative depending on how you look at it.
there are current threat, existential threat, possible threat and immediate threat.
.
since we Nigerians are always bedeviled by insurgents since the 1800 doesn't that mean that we should atleast be able to manage such situation easily? atleast we should be good at it.
.

if our threat assessment is all about localised forces, maitasine, boko haram, niger delta militant et al. why did we perform badly INITIALLY during the initial phase of boko haram? why did we start the reposturing just few years back? only after terrifying defeats by BH? WHAT happened to threat assessment then.

you said Nigeria is the best equipped country to deal such threat.
there are different ways to deal with localised threats. using different indigenous methods is one of them.
.
the conventional threat you talked about. you're calling ships names but those vessels do not present a formidable or credible determent.
.
for determent we need more than bareboned opvs.
.
how long are we going to keep saying threat assessment? if we dont get it right we will never get it right.
.
all country in the world have such threat level.. insurgency never ends.

.
.
Nigerian armed forces is capable of dealing with any insurgent group before, now and tomorrow...that has never been a problem sometimes I feel that they show too much restraint.
.
I personally hold the believe that before you start talking of immediate threats you should be able to
defend yourself or atleast able to hold your ground from external threats.
.
I do not wish to spoil your thread but sometimes somebody has to be the odd one once in a while.

henry posted credible arguments up there
the army suffered well in d early stages bcuz of our over dependence on conventional fighting
it is bcuz we thought d way u r thinking after we chased the Chadians out in the 80s and d build up to bakassi datz y we suffered horribly in 2014

now u av shifted to deterrence... u speak like a civilian
defence planners take into consideration own political,economical and biting problems in relation to our immediate neighbors and regional obligations

I in no means say we do not need credible deterrence but Even Aegis destroyers, f22s will not solve our immediate and near future palavers

NaijaTalkTown:
Not just France, the US too. But we have friendly relationship with them. We hold joint drills with them on CT from time to time. It does not make sense to compare and contrast our military with that of France and the United States of America. The US is a hegemony, France is a US vassal while Nigeria is a regional power. Different Nations, different resources, different military doctrines. Turkey is a NATO member but that did not stop them from working together in Syria. I am tired of schooling you guys. I no go reply you again o!

nor vex Sir. but this thing wey you type for up na utter nonsen5e. you hold friendly drills with who? what do you think a drill is? just a drill. even China hold drills with the USA that does not mean a friendly relation exists in any way or at any level. The counter terror effort is an International effort even Russia and the US could hold drills on that, have you ever held drills on conventional warfare with this people you call your friends? what is the definition of friendly relationship? what parameters do you use to measure friendship between sovereign entities in an Anarchic society such as the international system. they gave you a 1000 dollar IDP relief fund and they became your friend. they held ct drills with you probably to tap from the experience you already have due to the successes you have made in that area and they are your friends. have the US ever held real battle simulations with Nigeria? why? because you only do that with your real friends and allies. it's the 2012 and you still think the doctrine and threat assessments that we are making as a nation reflects the realities of the present international system or that of a regional power? you have been talking about international politics and it's good that you have a sound knowledge of international politics for this next part of my comment.

Nations in the International System are driven by one thing alone and that thing is Interest. during the Nigerian Civil War Britain our "Friend" refused to supply Nigeria with weapons needed to execute the war. why? because London never wanted to be on the wrong side of history just in case the Secetionists succeeds, they knew about the oil wells inside enemy territory in Biafra and wanted to continue to have access to it by making shady deals with the rebels which includes not supplying weapons to Nigeria. France did the same, America stayed neutral and kept enjoying her access to oil from Nigerian rebels. if not for the fact that Russia came to our rescue enough and we started pushing back the Biafrans Britain would no sooner have armed those guys(so they can secure their oil interest) against us and call it an effort in the fight for freedom and human right. and peeps like you will still come out and say Britain is my friend. Oga there is a reason why students of Intl Politics and Diplomacy are schooled on History for all their years in school that's because History have a way of repeating itself. Nations learn from their history but we don't. we just accept anything. and that's why we keep failing. I am feeling sleepy already Sir. have a nice night rest.

overhypedsteve:
nor vex Sir. but this thing wey you type for up na utter nonsen5e. you hold friendly drills with who? what do you think a drill is? just a drill. even China hold drills with the USA that does not mean a friendly relation exists in any way or at any level. The counter terror effort is an International effort even Russia and the US could hold drills on that, have you ever held drills on conventional warfare with this people you call your friends? what is the definition of friendly relationship? what parameters do you use to measure friendship between sovereign entities in an Anarchic society such as the international system. they gave you a 1000 dollar IDP relief fund and they became your friend. they held ct drills with you probably to tap from the experience you already have due to the successes you have made in that area and they are your friends. have the US ever held real battle simulations with Nigeria? why? because you only do that with your real friends and allies. it's the 2012 and you still think the doctrine and threat assessments that we are making as a nation reflects the realities of the present international system or that of a regional power? you have been talking about international politics and it's good that you have a sound knowledge of international politics for this next part of my comment.

Nations in the International System are driven by one thing alone and that thing is Interest. during the Nigerian Civil War Britain our "Friend" refused to supply Nigeria with weapons needed to execute the war. why? because London never wanted to be on the wrong side of history just in case the Secetionists succeeds, they knew about the oil wells inside enemy territory in Biafra and wanted to continue to have access to it by making shady deals with the rebels which includes not supplying weapons to Nigeria. France did the same, America stayed neutral and kept enjoying her access to oil from Nigerian rebels. if not for the fact that Russia came to our rescue enough and we started pushing back the Biafrans Britain would no sooner have armed those guys(so they can secure their oil interest) against us and call it an effort in the fight for freedom and human right. and peeps like you will still come out and say Britain is my friend. Oga there is a reason why students of Intl Politics and Diplomacy are schooled on History for all their years in school that's because History have a way of repeating itself. Nations learn from their history but we don't. we just accept anything. and that's why we keep failing. I am feeling sleepy already Sir. have a nice night rest.

Thank you very much for this wonderful comment. It is from people like you that I learn new things from. We were talking about military facts not political facts. We must accept America and every other country the US Deep State can use to destroy us as our friends. It is demoralizing to call them our masters so I call them our friends. Iran is one of the few countries to openly defy the US and even dump the Petro-Dollar, yet Iran is still standing strong not because of their air-to-air missiles. Not because of Russia (if US drops tactical nukes on Iranian facilities, Russia will not retaliate military. Russia would never risk Moscow for Tehran). Not because of China but because the Persions know who their enemies are and they are united and strong against these enemies. Look at countries like Iraq, Libya etc. Do you want Nigeria to be like them? We are not united as a nation. If we attempt to build our military to a stage where we become a threat to US interests in West Africa, bros you know wetin go happen na. 100 years from now, we will not be able to meet up with our colonial masters (friends). So bros, leave matter for Mattias because we don try well well no be small.

NaijaTalkTown:
Thank you very much for this wonderful comment. It is from people like you that I learn new things from. We were talking about military facts not political facts. We must accept America and every other country the US Deep State can use to destroy us as our friends. It is demoralizing to call them our masters so I call them our friends. Iran is one of the few countries to openly defy the US and even dump the Petro-Dollar, yet Iran is still standing strong not because of their air-to-air missiles. Not because of Russia (if US drops tactical nukes on Iranian facilities, Russia will not retaliate military. Russia would never risk Moscow for Tehran). Not because of China but because the Persions know who their enemies are and they are united and strong against these enemies. Look at countries like Iraq, Libya etc. Do you want Nigeria to be like them? We are not united as a nation. If we attempt to build our military to a stage where we become a threat to US interests in West Africa, bros you know wetin go happen na. 100 years from now, we will not be able to meet up with our colonial masters (friends). So bros, leave matter for Mattias because we don try well well no be small.

you are wrong again. India is doing well as a country even better than most western powers and they used to be under the same colonial leadership we escaped from. Nigeria with or without a strong military have always been a threat to US interest in not just West Africa but Africa as a whole. Its just that people know so little about their own history and see little reason why Nigeria needs to be a power. I reiterate that you do not have a friend with the West, we never had and may never do. In the 1950s during our Nationalists struggle Britain needed a Base in Nigeria to protect Nigeria from communist threats but in reality it was just an attempt to draw her new vassal into the cold war. We accepted it initially so we could be granted Independence and then we kicked against it after Independence. That's seemed to be our last chance of friendship with the West, from Independence our leaders of that time(God Bless them ) made it clear that any such neo colonialist move would not be welcomed by Nigeria.
Post 1960 our foreign policy became that of supporting the various nationalist struggle in Africa, what this meant is that we entered into a direct fight against Western interest in Africa and we succeeded successfully pushing them back away from Africa. Did we become like Libya or Iraq because of that? The west lost up to 50 billion dollars in asset when they finally left Africa for good thanks to Nigerian effort. During the Angolan struggle Murtala defied the advice by the west( even Henry Kissinger himself flew to Nigeria) to ask Nigeria to avoid the OAU meeting on the Angolan issue but while MM was still deliberating Joe Garba ( the Nigerian solider turn Diplomat, and the only foreign minister that have ever made us proud) came up with a speech which later became known as The Africa reawakening speech. It was said that when Murtala read that speech he stood up immediately and asked Joe to forget about going for the AU conference that he would go there as the Nigerian Head of State and read the Speech himself( you can watch the speech online and see for yourself how anti western it was) he delivered the speech and declared support for the communist backed MPLA most of the African leaders saw it as ridiculous but followed Nigeria leadership and did the same.

Have Nigeria ever deployed troops or assets in a fight against western Interest? Yes.
Henry Kissinger submitted a report to the joint Chief of Staff that 8 Nigerian MIG fighter jets were deployed in Angola aiding the war against western Hegemony in Southern Africa (This are not claims Sir, this documents are available online as they have been declassified).


Sir, even small Nations can make a stand against big powers and your Country Nigeria is a very good example of a Nation that have constantly stood against the west. The West would not sell us Conventional attack fighters and long range Jets not because they think we will use it to attack other African States, no. They are aware of our love for Africa. They will not sell them to us because it would pose a direct threat to their bases and deployments in Africa which are generally anti Nigerian. Believe you me. We have a place to stand if we choose to oppose the west. You just do not see it. Too many American films which are tools of propaganda may have influenced the thinking of most New Generation Patriots.
The true patriots however are in Iran and North Korea building their Nations based on the values they believe in and not the ones imposed on them. Do we have a better standard of leaving than them based on this? No.


Lionel was not wrong we need a stronger Country. Our Threat Assessments are made by arm chair losers. Even someone sitting at hone could make a better threat assessment. The fact that you have 180 million people to protect alone is reason enough to have a strong defence force. The day that Russian Submarine surface at the coast of Lagos during an excercise that we knew nothing about, our Naval officers watched and were dumbfounded because they could not wrap their brain around such sophistication. The Russians assessed our Military and knew we had nothing that posed a threat to their asset so they decided that it was the perfect place to test their new equipments aboard that Submarine. Did we include such scenarios when we drafted a new threat assessment report after that time? No. We just said "the Russians are our friends they just like testing their submarines near us" our threat assessment is obsolete and even for the COIN war we are fighting if that's were our interest lies the you would agree with me that we ve done little in that area also. How can at this age and tie somebody will be proudly saying that we have Vicker tanks and we are cool. Truth be told there is no way Nigeria could have single handedly put up a show like the Senegalese in Gambia because we just do not have the equipments to field. We lack a lot in that area and it would be foolhardy for yound men like you and me who would be in charge of things in the future not to know this.

overhypedsteve:
you are wrong again. India is doing well as a country even better than most western powers and they used to be under the same colonial leadership we escaped from. Nigeria with or without a strong military have always been a threat to US interest in not just West Africa but Africa as a whole. Its just that people know so little about their own history and see little reason why Nigeria needs to be a power. I reiterate that you do not have a friend with the West, we never had and may never do. In the 1950s during our Nationalists struggle Britain needed a Base in Nigeria to protect Nigeria from communist threats but in reality it was just an attempt to draw her new vassal into the cold war. We accepted it initially so we could be granted Independence and then we kicked against it after Independence. That's seemed to be our last chance of friendship with the West, from Independence our leaders of that time(God Bless them ) made it clear that any such neo colonialist move would not be welcomed by Nigeria.
Post 1960 our foreign policy became that of supporting the various nationalist struggle in Africa, what this meant is that we entered into a direct fight against Western interest in Africa and we succeeded successfully pushing them back away from Africa. Did we become like Libya or Iraq because of that? The west lost up to 50 billion dollars in asset when they finally left Africa for good thanks to Nigerian effort. During the Angolan struggle Murtala defied the advice by the west( even Henry Kissinger himself flew to Nigeria) to ask Nigeria to avoid the OAU meeting on the Angolan issue but while MM was still deliberating Joe Garba ( the Nigerian solider turn Diplomat, and the only foreign minister that have ever made us proud) came up with a speech which later became known as The Africa reawakening speech. It was said that when Murtala read that speech he stood up immediately and asked Joe to forget about going for the AU conference that he would go there as the Nigerian Head of State and read the Speech himself( you can watch the speech online and see for yourself how anti western it was) he delivered the speech and declared support for the communist backed MPLA most of the African leaders saw it as ridiculous but followed Nigeria leadership and did the same.

Have Nigeria ever deployed troops or assets in a fight against western Interest? Yes.
Henry Kissinger submitted a report to the joint Chief of Staff that 8 Nigerian MIG fighter jets were deployed in Angola aiding the war against western Hegemony in Southern Africa (This are not claims Sir, this documents are available online as they have been declassified).


Sir, even small Nations can make a stand against big powers and your Country Nigeria is a very good example of a Nation that have constantly stood against the west. The West would not sell us Conventional attack fighters and long range Jets not because they think we will use it to attack other African States, no. They are aware of our love for Africa. They will not sell them to us because it would pose a direct threat to their bases and deployments in Africa which are generally anti Nigerian. Believe you me. We have a place to stand if we choose to oppose the west. You just do not see it. Too many American films which are tools of propaganda may have influenced the thinking of most New Generation Patriots.
The true patriots however are in Iran and North Korea building their Nations based on the values they believe in and not the ones imposed on them. Do we have a better standard of leaving than them based on this? No.


Lionel was not wrong we need a stronger Country. Our Threat Assessments are made by arm chair losers. Even someone sitting at hone could make a better threat assessment. The fact that you have 180 million people to protect alone is reason enough to have a strong defence force. The day that Russian Submarine surface at the coast of Lagos during an excercise that we knew nothing about, our Naval officers watched and were dumbfounded because they could not wrap their brain around such sophistication. The Russians assessed our Military and knew we had nothing that posed a threat to their asset so they decided that it was the perfect place to test their new equipments aboard that Submarine. Did we include such scenarios when we drafted a new threat assessment report after that time? No. We just said "the Russians are our friends they just like testing their submarines near us" our threat assessment is obsolete and even for the COIN war we are fighting if that's were our interest lies the you would agree with me that we ve done little in that area also. How can at this age and tie somebody will be proudly saying that we have Vicker tanks and we are cool. Truth be told there is no way Nigeria could have single handedly put up a show like the Senegalese in Gambia because we just do not have the equipments to field. We lack a lot in that area and it would be foolhardy for yound men like you and me who would be in charge of things in the future not to know this.

well said gentleman

well said

@overhypedsteve First of all (and this is very important) stop calling me Sir. Call me Brother. I am your Nigerian brother.

Dear brother, what was the fate of Murtala Muhammed? How did he end up? To understand where I stand on this issue, please listen to Lagbaja's 200 million mumu part 1 and 3. Again I ask, what was Murtala Muhammed's fate? Jonathan was not anti-West but he was seen as an enemy in the West because he was pro-Nigerian. You can not deny that the election that brought Buhari into office was to some extents externally influenced by the West. Buhari took a pro-Nigerian stance too. He refused to take orders from IMF. Obama threatened him on live TV (he actually vowed to pressurize Buhari into devaluing the Naira). If we, all of us had stood by him and give middle fingers to the Westerners, our President would have remained loyal and patriotic. The Nation was divided. Those who know nothing about International Economics and Geopolitics were ranting and displaying their stupidity, arguing for the devaluation of the Naira simply because they hate Buhari. He had to bow to the pressure. The Russians, the Persians, the North Koreans, they are patriotic to the bone. They know who to side with. 200 million Nigerians, na mumu all of us be. We dey side oyinbo wey dey make life tough for us. Our leaders go wan help us, we go help oyinbo frustrate them.

And I no go ever support lionel4power. Lai lai! Our soldiers, our airmen and fearless sailors, their own job na to use their lives protect our own lives. Their salary no reach, their weapon no reach, people dey use them play politics, media the bash them but still, them still gree make them die make we for live. Bros I no go ever support anybody wey go berate them one way or the other. That one na lie! If he thinks our military na stone age military, make him go confront government. Make him no come dey berate our brave men and women for where everybody dey celebrate their own. You get my point? You understand my view now?

NaijaTalkTown:
@overhypedsteve First of all (and this is very important) stop calling me Sir. Call me Brother. I am your Nigerian brother.

Dear brother, what was the fate of Murtala Muhammed? How did he end up? To understand where I stand on this issue, please listen to Lagbaja's 200 million mumu part 1 and 3. Again I ask, what was Murtala Muhammed's fate? Jonathan was not anti-West but he was seen as an enemy in the West because he was pro-Nigerian. You can not deny that the election that brought Buhari into office was to some extents externally influenced by the West. Buhari took a pro-Nigerian stance too. He refused to take orders from IMF. Obama threatened him on live TV (he actually vowed to pressurize Buhari into devaluing the Naira). If we, all of us had stood by him and give middle fingers to the Westerners, our President would have remained loyal and patriotic. The Nation was divided. Those who know nothing about International Economics and Geopolitics were ranting and displaying their stupidity, arguing for the devaluation of the Naira simply because they hate Buhari. He had to bow to the pressure. The Russians, the Persians, the North Koreans, they are patriotic to the bone. They know who to side with. 200 million Nigerians, na mumu all of us be. We dey side oyinbo wey dey make life tough for us. Our leaders go wan help us, we go help oyinbo frustrate them.

And I no go ever support lionel4power. Lai lai! Our soldiers, our airmen and fearless sailors, their own job na to use their lives protect our own lives. Their salary no reach, their weapon no reach, people dey use them play politics, media the bash them but still, them still gree make them die make we for live. Bros I no go ever support anybody wey go berate them one way or the other. That one na lie! If he thinks our military na stone age military, make him go confront government. Make him no come dey berate our brave men and women for where everybody dey celebrate their own. You get my point? You understand my view now?

I didn't see where he did that. Pardon me for calling you Sir. I thought you were a Male.

cstr55:
And how is Nigeria responding to the obvious threat that a budding homegrown south african defence industry pose to Nigeria's strategic economic and political interests on the continent?
Is it until when there is a confrontation like we have nearly had in the past with the xenophobic south africans before Nigerians know what is up?
A political and economic rival on the continent already develops indigenous capable missiles, and helicopters and you are just there looking?

South Africa has been developing missiles since the 70s.

I don't see how that is a threat to Nigeria.

MikeCZA:
South Africa has been developing missiles since the 70s.

I don't see how that is a threat to Nigeria.

exactly what I am saying. imagine that kind of dumb threat assessment. they didn't use the missile against us when we disagreed with them on apartheid issues it's now that both countries are at peace that we should be bothered about them. instead of talking about partnership he is foreseeing threats that do not exist. because it is today that our defence planners heard that the south Africans are building Missiles.

overhypedsteve:
exactly what I am saying. imagine that kind of dumb threat assessment. they didn't use the missile against us when we disagreed with them on apartheid issues it's now that both countries are at peace that we should be bothered about them. instead of talking about partnership he is foreseeing threats that do not exist. because it is today that our defence planners heard that the south Africans are building Missiles.

lol
we can't fault him...he is just a civilian

infact this supposed to be fed into Lionel's head
if I get him correctly... our neighbors shld be our priority and we should arm like they are our enemies and this is where Henry comes in to say "Young man our problems are terrorism and insurgency and we should be working towards that"

jln115:

No need to look that far back, CAR was another example of how the SANDF effectively used mortars against a much larger force. Helmoed Heitmans book Battle of Bangui explains this in detail.

No it wasn't. In the CAR you guys got beaten blue, black - dropped your testicles and fled the country.

No Sir, CAR is not an example. We have established this fact. Quit bringing it up. It's over 3 years already.

considering the recent UAE involvement in middle east and african ,by building several bases,deploying drone and fighter aircraft.in five or ten years which african country will have the same militarily influence as UAE in africa ?

Henry24o:


No it wasn't. In the CAR you guys got beaten blue, black - dropped your testicles and fled the country.

No Sir, CAR is not an example. We have established this fact. Quit bringing it up. It's over 3 years already.

Dude stop looking for an argument, I've read Battle of Bangui by Helmoed Heitman who we both know is an internationally acclaimed defence annalist with years of experience....I've given you every opportunity to read it and even posted the link were you can download it(FOR FREE).

Before you've read it you simply don't have the insight to comment on what happened!

Henry24o:


No it wasn't. In the CAR you guys got beaten blue, black - dropped your testicles and fled the country.

No Sir, CAR is not an example. We have established this fact. Quit bringing it up. It's over 3 years already.

Augubugubug alert!

africaken254:
considering the recent UAE involvement in middle east and african ,by building several bases,deploying drone and fighter aircraft.in five or ten years which african country will have the same militarily influence as UAE in africa ?

over here we would ask "who that one epp"
Instead African Militaries & Governments shld stand up to their God given right to defend their homelands

Henry24o:


No it wasn't. In the CAR you guys got beaten blue, black - dropped your testicles and fled the country.

No Sir, CAR is not an example. We have established this fact. Quit bringing it up. It's over 3 years already.

bro except u want to be bias/close ur eyes to truth
the SANDF employed those mortars like a boss @ Bangui
Try to sieve what he is saying

Odunayaw:
bro except u want to be bias/close ur eyes to truth
the SANDF employed those mortars like a boss @ Bangui
Try to sieve what he is saying

Where is your evidence?

The entire Bangui story from the South-African side has been pure and utter hogwash. Contradictory death figures and stories that completely make no sense.

I have no bias against RSA, eventhough i can be quite competitive with them, but the stories they continue to tell about Bangui have been blatant lies. The UN Agency, Photo evidence, FOMAC troops, the Take over of Bangui, international news agencies on the ground, confirmed tales of utter helplessness and abandonment of SANDF troops in the CAR. These aren't made up, they are irrefutable, concrete proofs by reputable agencies.


When a team beats another team 6 - 0, you don't go asking the team that lost how the game was, they'll surely twist the facts.

I and the rest of the world have maintained clear positions of the hopelessness of the SANDF in Bangui. This topic has been completely rehashed.

frumentius:


Augubugubug alert!

I hold nothing against you South-Africans, i only hold a grudge when you South-Africans do that to Nigeria.


I was basically the only Nigerian who commiserated with you guys back in 2013, in the other thread. The old guardn Andrew, Mike, Patches, the other South-African in the SAAF (Syndergp) can all confirm. Bangui is not one of those moments i hold a grudge. That said, your Bangui story has been pure hogwash. I'm been completely honest.

My position hasn't changed.

jln115:

Dude stop looking for an argument, I've read Battle of Bangui by Helmoed Heitman who we both know is an internationally acclaimed defence annalist with years of experience....I've given you every opportunity to read it and even posted the link were you can download it(FOR FREE).

Before you've read it you simply don't have the insight to comment on what happened!

Dude, I have provided countless evidence in the past which prove your Bangui debacle was a disaster. I'm not looking to start an argument either.

I only stated the facts as they are, backed by reputable agencies, the international media, politics on the ground and the presence of heavy French and FOMAC troops.

Henry24o:


Where is your evidence?

The entire Bangui story from the South-African side has been pure and utter hogwash. Contradictory death figures and stories that completely make no sense.

I have no bias against RSA, eventhough i can be quite competitive with them, but the stories they continue to tell about Bangui have been blatant lies. The UN Agency, Photo evidence, FOMAC troops, the Take over of Bangui, international news agencies on the ground, confirmed tales of utter helplessness and abandonment of SANDF troops in the CAR. These aren't made up, they are irrefutable, concrete proofs by reputable agencies.


When a team beats another team 6 - 0, you don't go asking the team that lost how the game was, they'll surely twist the facts.

I and the rest of the world have maintained clear positions of the hopelessness of the SANDF in Bangui. This topic has been completely rehashed.

toh make I de side lines they chew popcorn