RedboneSmith:


Olumbanasaa is a group name, like Mbammili (Riverine people), not the name of one community. All the communities that make up Olumbanasaa don't have Igbo names. They have Igala names. Yoruba is a group name. Not the name of one community. The communities that make up the Yoruba nation don't have Hausa names.

Ominije was the name of just ONE community, not a collective group name, like Olumbanasa and Yoruba. Your analogies are deceptive.

How would you know that Ominijie is the name of one community.
How are you sure that it wasn't a group of communities of Igbo speaking people that were referred as Ominijie, were invaded and then United by Imperialistic Edos under Agbor?
How are you sure that these people didn't have names they called themselves instead of Ominijie, but Ominijie stuck in oral history, since the Binis invaded Ominijie formed Agbor, ruled it and influenced the story of Ominijie passed down in oral history to the unborn generation?

gerg:
What do you have to say about the Ominigie group also existing in Edo culture during the Ogiso era?

What do you have to say about Olu/oru groups existing throughout Igboland?

If Igbos were imperialists, wouldn't the Olumbanasaa have been invaded since antiquity, United under one Eze, probably one of the princes of Nri, as a single community and then years down the line, we would be wondering how an Igala speaking people have an Igbo name as the name of their town,and an Igbo king title.
And Igbo people will point to the existence of several Olu/oru towns in Igboland to justify why an Igala speaking people today are actually Igbos, and then we will provide a dictionary to show that Oru/Olu means riverine in Igbo language, Olumbanasaa is a riverine coimmunity, therefore must be Igbo.

I hope you see why I don't buy your story. I know better.

ariesbull:

Nwanne madu. Kedu side gi Na nnewi...I am also from there
Pls ignore that one

Uruagu,obodo dike ejighi ebunu ma so enina dike. You?

Igboid:


We know that Igbo empire never existed.
We know that Igbos nevers invaded Agbor, as no such was recorded in Agbor history.
We know that the nearest Igbo( read SE) community Onitsha is Miles away from Agbor.
We know that Agbor is a stone throw away from Bini
We have oral histories of Agbor invasion by Edos
We know that Bini was an imperialistic empire.

Yet!

Today, Agbor speaks an Igboid language

How do you explain this!

Easy answer. We have already been through this. Population movement.

The Germans had no empire before they were unified in the 19th century. How did they Germanize so much of Slavic territory at a time when they were just a bunch of tiny city-states and counties? Answer: They have a large population. They were migrating into less-populated areas. By virtue of their population they could assimilate aboriginal populations. Simple. You rely too much on the 'Empire' hypothesis as the explanation for cultural/linguistic assimilation.

RedboneSmith:


Easy answer. We have already been through this. Population movement.

The Germans had no empire before they were unified in the 19th century. How did they Germanize so much of Slavic territory at a time when they were just a bunch of tiny city-states and counties. Answer: They have a large population. They were migrating into less-populated areas. By virtue of their population they could assimilate aboriginal populations. Simple. You rely too much on the 'Empire' hypothesis as the explanation for cultural/linguistic assimilation.

The problem with your German hypothesis is that there are no history of such Igbo migration into Edo speaking Agbor, so much as to change the language demographics of the place if there were, Edo history will capture it.
Rather what we have is history of Edo people invading Ominijie( probably the name Edo people called the people, not necessary what the people called themselves) , conquered the people, United them under a kingdom, probably because they never saw themselves as one, ruled over them for sometime, before the people rebelled.

You are really over reaching with your German hypothesis here.

RedboneSmith:
Easy answer. We have already been through this. Population movement.

The Germans had no empire before they were unified in the 19th century. How did they Germanize so much of Slavic territory at a time when they were just a bunch of tiny city-states and counties? Answer: They have a large population. They were migrating into less-populated areas. By virtue of their population they could assimilate aboriginal populations. Simple. You rely too much on the 'Empire' hypothesis as the explanation for cultural/linguistic assimilation.

Guy, here is another high-five. Abeg collect one bowl of 'isi-ewu' join that chilled bottle. You deserve it! This is getting interesting!

Cire80:
Ebo is not an Igbo word. Nnewi borrowed lots of words from Anioma. Ebo is not in Igbo culture. In Edo and Ika culture, Ogbe, Idunwun /Idumu and Evbo/Ebon are used as a form of stratification or structuralization in our Kingdoms and clans. In Ika as well as in Bini/Ishan, Ogbe is the quarter, each Ogbe is subdivided into Idunwun/Idumu and this is further divided into Evbo/Ebons. All these divisions and subdivisions hold their meetings in a place called Egua/Ogua. We have Ogua Ogbe, Ogua Idumu and Ogua Ebon. For anybody to say Ebon has nothing to do with Evbo is the height of prejudice.

For starters,which town or settlement is called Anioma,for Nnewi to borrow words from?.
When did we even actively interacted with the "Anioma town" to be "borrowing" words from them?.
I've had lively engagements with Bini people before,quite lovely and engaging culture,but you coming here to display your ignorance for all,all in a bid to claim a people not yours is something else.
FYI,Ogbe is an Nnewi word too.Same as Ogwa

Ignore the troll.

Igboid:


How would you know that Ominijie is the name of one community.
How are you sure that it wasn't a group of communities of Igbo speaking people that were referred as Ominijie, were invaded and then United by Imperialistic Edos under Agbor?
How are you sure that these people didn't have names they called themselves instead of Ominijie, but Ominijie stuck in oral history, since the Binis invaded Ominijie formed Agbor, ruled it and influenced the story of Ominijie passed down in oral history to the unborn generation?

Ominijie was not a collection of communities in the sense that Olumbanasaa is. That we know. It was just ONE community. In fact, it wasn't even as big as the present Agbor Town. It was the nucleus settlement that grew and grew to become the present Agbor.

According to Bini traditions, the name of Agbor was Igidi at the time they invaded, not Ominijie. The Ominijie era had already ended before Bini became a force to reckon with, so you can forget trying to pin the Ominijie name on Bini imperialists.

RedboneSmith:


Ominijie was not a collection of communities in the sense that Olumbanasaa is. That we know. It was just ONE community. In fact, it wasn't even as big as the present Agbor Town. It was the nucleus settlement that grew and grew to become the present Agbor.

According to Bini traditions, the name of Agbor was Igidi at the time they invaded, not Ominijie. The Ominijie era had already ended before Bini became a force to reckon with, so you can forget trying to pin the Ominijie name on Bini imperialists.

That's the problem.
Every story about Ominijie/Igidi are through Bini tinted glass.
Bini invaded where we know as Agbor today, established the kingdom and influenced all the oral history of the place we have today.

If an Igbo is to tell the story of Equatorial guinea today, he will call it "Panya", it doesn't necessarily mean that's what the people called themselves.
My point is that we can't use a bini tainted and corrupted oral history to unravel the truth about agbor. I'd rather look at the language.
And until you provide history of Igbo mass migration to Agbor, so much to change the demographics of the area in history, language, in this case remain the best logical tool to analyze Agbor.
The German infiltration of Berlin is well known in Oral history.
There is no history of Igbo infiltration of Agbor. Binis kept oral history, yet such a defining factor in history of Agbor was not recorded by them.

You need to repent from your mischievous ways.

Dhugal:

For starters,which town or settlement is called Anioma,for Nnewi to borrow words from?.
When did we even actively interacted with the "Anioma town" to be "borrowing" words from them?.
I've had lively engagements with Bini people before,quite lovely and engaging culture,but you coming here to display your ignorance for all,all in a bid to claim a people not yours is something else.
FYI,Ogbe is an Nnewi word too.Same as Ogwa

Who is Anioma for Nnewi to borrow cultures from? What ignorance. Awka and Nnewi borrowed lots of words and cultures from Anioma. For you to ask this question shows debating with you is just a waste of time.

RedboneSmith:


Easy answer. We have already been through this. Population movement.

The Germans had no empire before they were unified in the 19th century. How did they Germanize so much of Slavic territory at a time when they were just a bunch of tiny city-states and counties? Answer: They have a large population. They were migrating into less-populated areas. By virtue of their population they could assimilate aboriginal populations. Simple. You rely too much on the 'Empire' hypothesis as the explanation for cultural/linguistic assimilation.

Wrong.
The Holy Roman Empire was a Germanic empire.
From Charlemagne to the Hohenstaufens,down to the Habsburgs.
Don't try to rewrite European history here,mister.

Cire80:
Who is Anioma for Nnewi to borrow cultures from? What ignorance. Awka and Nnewi borrowed lots of words and cultures from Anioma. For you to ask this question shows debating with you is just a waste of time.

I see that you keep letting slide my assertion you're Bini and not Ika,as you've tried to fool some here with.
Good.
Now,stop beating about the bush.Which town/settlement is named "Anioma",for Nnewi to have borrowed words from?.Bearing in mind before colonialism we rarely,if not hardly,associated with towns across the river.

Igboid:


That's the problem.
Every story about Ominijie/Igidi are through Bini tinted glass.
Bini invaded where we know as Agbor today, established the kingdom and influenced all the oral history of the place we have today.

If an Igbo is to tell the story of Equatorial guinea today, he will call it "Panya", it doesn't necessarily mean that's what the people called themselves.
My point is that we can't use a bini tainted and corrupted oral history to unravel the truth about agbor. I'd rather look at the language.
And until you provide history of Igbo mass migration to Agbor, so much to change the demographics of the area in history, language, in this case remain the best logical tool to analyze Agbor.
The German infiltration of Berlin is well known in Oral history.
There is no history of Igbo infiltration of Agbor. Binis kept oral history, yet such a defining factor in history of Agbor was not recorded by them.

You need to repent from your mischievous ways.

You do know that war and imperialism by the sheer dramatic nature of those events persist in oral tradition when less dramatic events like largely peaceful and uneventful migration of farmers don't survive, right

We only have glimpses of early occupation of the Berlin area by Slavs because it was written down! It we had to rely on oral traditions alone we would probably have NOTHING to go on except place name evidence.

If you like call my activities here mischievous. It is only mischievous to you because it does not align with your own agenda. If you read my earlier comments on this very thread, I have disagreed with some Ika members of this forum. I have similarly disagreed with them on a number of issues on other threads here. I was not mischievous then.

But hold a different opinion from SE people and you become a sufferer from acute Igbophobia.

Dhugal:

Wrong.
The Holy Roman Empire was a Germanic empire.
From Charlemagne to the Hohenstaufens,down to the Habsburgs.
Don't try to rewrite European history here,mister.

And again, the Slavic were always more populous than the Germanics, even till today.
Population wasn't the reason Slavs lost Berlin to Germanics.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavs

Dude is just vomiting crap anyhow.

Igboid:


The problem with your German hypothesis is that there are no history of such Igbo migration into Edo speaking Agbor, so much as to change the language demographics of the place if there were, Edo history will capture it.
Rather what we have is history of Edo people invading Ominijie( probably the name Edo people called the people, not necessary what the people called themselves) , conquered the people, United them under a kingdom, probably because they never saw themselves as one, ruled over them for sometime, before the people rebelled.

You are really over reaching with your German hypothesis here.

The "German hypothesis" falls flat to start with,there was a Germanic empire prior to Bismarck's Iron and Blood unification of northern Germanic states under Prussia.
Heck,there were two,counting the Habsburg's Austrian Empire.
You guys should be informed before bringing in false equivalencies here.

RedboneSmith:


You do know that war and imperialism by the sheer dramatic nature of those events persist in oral tradition when less dramatic events like largely peaceful and uneventful migration of farmers don't survive, right

We only have glimpses of early occupation of the Berlin area by Slavs because it was written down! It we had to rely on oral traditions alone we would probably have NOTHING to go on except place name evidence.

If you like call my activities here mischievous. It is only mischievous to you because it does not align with your own agenda. If you read my earlier comments on this very thread, I have disagreed with some Ika members of this forum. I have similarly disagreed with them on a number of issues on other threads here. I was not mischievous then.

But hold a different opinion from SE people and you become a sufferer from acute Igbophobia.

How exactly did Bini oral story miss out on such a great migration that changed the language of Agbor for ever!
You have failed to Answer this question.
The answer being that no such migration ever occurred.

Your Germanic-Slavic analogy is also flawed, as the Slavic have always been more populous since antiquity, more than the Germanics in Europe.

Dhugal:

Wrong.
The Holy Roman Empire was a Germanic empire.
From Charlemagne to the Hohenstaufens,down to the Habsburgs.
Don't try to rewrite European history here,mister.

"The Holy Roman Empire was neither holy nor Roman nor an Empire" --- Voltaire.

The Holy Roman Empire was an Empire only in name. It was a ridiculous attempt to keep the memory of the dead Roman Empire alive. The free cities, and palatines of what is now Germany did not give a hoot about the 'Emperor'. German was not an Empire before the Iron Chancellor, Bismarck unified the German territories (except for Austria) under the king of Prussia. Read an actual European history book, sir.

Igboid:


That's the problem.
Every story about Ominijie/Igidi are through Bini tinted glass.
Bini invaded where we know as Agbor today, established the kingdom and influenced all the oral history of the place we have today.

If an Igbo is to tell the story of Equatorial guinea today, he will call it "Panya", it doesn't necessarily mean that's what the people called themselves.
My point is that we can't use a bini tainted and corrupted oral history to unravel the truth about agbor. I'd rather look at the language.
And until you provide history of Igbo mass migration to Agbor, so much to change the demographics of the area in history, language, in this case remain the best logical tool to analyze Agbor.
The German infiltration of Berlin is well known in Oral history.
There is no history of Igbo infiltration of Agbor. Binis kept oral history, yet such a defining factor in history of Agbor was not recorded by them.

You need to repent from your mischievous ways.

We don't rely on any outsider or any writer to tell us our history. Here you go wrong again.

Igboid:


How exactly did Bini oral story miss out on such a great migration that changed the language of Agbor for ever!
You have failed to Answer this question.
The answer being that no such migration ever occurred.

Your Germanic-Slavic analogy is also flawed, as the Slavic have always been more populous since antiquity, more than the Germanics in Europe.

The Westernmost Slavic areas (which were the areas Germanised) were less populated than the Germanic areas. I don't even know why you are factoring in the whole Slavic-speaking world as if anybody is suggesting Slavic Russia was Germanised.

Igboid:


How exactly did Bini oral story miss out on such a great migration that changed the language of Agbor for ever!
You have failed to Answer this question.
The answer being that no such migration ever occurred.

Your Germanic-Slavic analogy is also flawed, as the Slavic have always been more populous since antiquity, more than the Germanics in Europe.

What are you talking about? Who told you we need Binis to tell our history? And your question has been answered time without number : population.

Cire80:
We don't rely on any outsider or any writer to tell us our history. Here you go wrong again.

Iduwe, the last time I checked, is not an outsider, neither is Osita Mordi.
I don't agree with all they write, but they sure don't support your Bini crap stories.

RedboneSmith:


The Westernmost Slavic areas (which were the areas Germanised) were less populated than the Germanic areas. I don't even know why you are factoring in the whole Slavic-speaking world as if anybody is suggesting Slavic Russia was Germanised.

Lol! But you are grouping the entire Igbo speaking region as one, and now you want to divide the slavs?

Well, the westernmost Igbo areas, the Ogbarus/Idemilis were and are still less populated than the Edos. I don't know why you are factoring the whole SE.
Since you want us to go that route.

You are not half as smart as you think you are.

Igboid:


Iduwe, the last time I checked, is not an outsider, neither is Osita Mordi.
I don't agree with all they write, but they sure don't support your Bini crap stories.

Osita Mordi though highly pro Igbo has never disputed the Bini origin. For you to say this shows you don't even know anything about him.

Pa Iduwe was greatly influenced by Onwuejeogu of which he mentioned many times in his book. Onwuejeogu is not a historian because most of his works are speculative and controversial. Iduwe didn't hide his anti Edo bias but he ended up writing lots of Edo cultures, history, names and words without giving acknowledgment to Bini. According to Iduwe, most of these Bini cultures and names actually originated from Agbor.

RedboneSmith:


"The Holy Roman Empire was neither holy nor Roman nor an Empire" --- Voltaire.

The Holy Roman Empire was an Empire only in name. It was a ridiculous attempt to keep the memory of the dead Roman Empire alive. The free cities, and palatines of what is now Germany did not give a hoot about the 'Emperor'. German was not an Empire before the Iron Chancellor, Bismarck unified the German territories (except for Austria) under the king of Prussia. Read an actual European history book, sir.

Jesus!
Dude,that's a shiny object moment for you there,quoting Voltaire.
This wise tho,you fail.I just happened to be an historian,majoring in medieval European history

RedboneSmith:


"The Holy Roman Empire was neither holy nor Roman nor an Empire" --- Voltaire.

The Holy Roman Empire was an Empire only in name. It was a ridiculous attempt to keep the memory of the dead Roman Empire alive. The free cities, and palatines of what is now Germany did not give a hoot about the 'Emperor'. German was not an Empire before the Iron Chancellor, Bismarck unified the German territories (except for Austria) under the king of Prussia. Read an actual European history book, sir.

Jesus!
Dude,that's a shiny object moment for you there,quoting Voltaire.
This wise tho,you fail.I just happened to be an historian,majoring in medieval European history.
The HRE may not have been "Holy" nor "Roman",but an empire it sure was.
What German palatinate under it's sway did not give a hoot about it?.Or you need lessoning on the extent of the empire and the powers it wielded?.
Heck,Charles V sacked Rome n held the Pope prisoner in his abode at some point.
Need I also teach you how James 1 of England's daughter and son in law were sacked,lost their lands and palatinate and only managed to keep their lives cos of James' intervention, for daring to accept the crown of Bohemia and Moravia after being forbidden by the Emperor?.
Word of advise,hit the books if you would make allusions to European history you know absolutely nothing about.Dribbling out a Voltaire quote from a quick Google search is a non-starter.
You didn't even know Austria was an empire covering most of what is Slav today,bar Poland,Russia,Bulgaria and Romania to an extent.
Smh

Igboid:


Lol! But you are grouping the entire Igbo speaking region as one, and now you want to divide the slavs?

Well, the westernmost Igbo areas, the Ogbarus/Idemilis were and are still less populated than the Edos. I don't know why you are factoring the whole SE.
Since you want us to go that route.

You are not as smart as you think.

This would make sense if Ogbaru is the source of 'Igbonization' of the Anioma area. As it turns out, it is not. Ogbaru is even very much like Anioma, in the sense that she is a recipient of population movements from the populated Igbo hinterland. . Idemmili, as much of the communities in Anambra outside the Olu (riverine areas) has high population density.

Cire80:
Osita Mordi though highly pro Igbo has never disputed the Bini origin. For you to say this shows you don't even know anything about him.

Pa Iduwe was greatly influenced by Onwuejeogu of which he mentioned many times in his book. Onwuejeogu is not a historian because most of his works are speculative and controversial. Iduwe didn't hide his anti Edo bias but he ended up writing lots of Edo cultures, history, names and words without giving acknowledgment to Bini. According to Iduwe, most of these Bini cultures and names actually originated from Agbor.

Lol! We are to throw away Onwuejeogu and Iduwe works and accept your Edonized ones that defy logic when put under scrutiny of rational reasoning?

Igboid:


Lol! We are to throw away Onwuejeogu and Iduwe works and accept your Edonized ones that defy logic when put under scrutiny of rational reasoning?

Stop debating that guy.He's Edo,not Ika.
Ehikwe happened to be the Ika among all those that originally started this off.

RedboneSmith:


This would make sense if Ogbaru is the source of 'Igbonization' of the Anioma area. As it turns out, it is not. Ogbaru is even very much like Anioma, in the sense that she is a recipient of population movements from the populated Igbo hinterland. . Idemmili, as much of the communities in Anambra outside the Olu (riverine areas) has high population density.

So you mean, Ebonyi, Enugu, Abia and Imo, Oyigbo, Egbema, Ndoki, Asa, are all sources of your phantom Igbonization of Agbor that the Bini oral history failed to capture?

Or you just had to add them all to your fable Ancient populous Igbo nation whose population spilled into Agbor and escaped the notice of Bini historians?

You are a comedian.

Ogbahu/ Ogbaru as a matter of fact were inhabitants of western Igboland that were pushed back eastwards across the great river by the Edo imperialistic ripple created in Ancient Western Igboland.

I can't quote your comment for some reason.

I doubt that someone majoring in medieval European history is unaware of the severe limitations of the Holy Roman Empire. You're most likely an enthusiast and nothing more. Many small-time adventurers held the pope captive at various points in history. Norman the Conqueror wasn't even a king, but a duke when he overran England. So I don't know how sacking a territory could be proof of the imperial might of the Holy Roman Emperor.

If it wasn't late, I would have gone to my study and quoted copiously to demonstrate that the HRE was an empire only in name, and played ZERO role in the Germanization of former slavic territories in Brandenburg and Prussia. The Germanisers were migrant farmers and a band of knights - The Teutonic knights.

Austria-Hungary came much much later in history to be of any relevance to the issue at hand.

Igboid:


So you mean, Ebonyi, Enugu, Abia and Imo, Oyigbo, Egbema, Ndoki, Asa, are all sources of your phantom Igbonization of Agbor that the Bini oral history failed to capture?

Or you just had to add them all to your fable Ancient populous Igbo nation whose population spilled into Agbor and escaped the notice of Bini historians?

You are a comedian.

Ogbahu/ Ogbaru as a matter of fact were inhabitants of western Igboland that were pushed back eastwards across the great river by the Edo imperialistic ripple created in Ancient Western Igboland.

Okay, you are actually being downright silly at this point.

Igboid:


So you mean, Ebonyi, Enugu, Abia and Imo, Oyigbo, Egbema, Ndoki, Asa, are all sources of your phantom Igbonization of Agbor that the Bini oral history failed to capture?

Or you just had to add them all to your fable Ancient populous Igbo nation whose population spilled into Agbor and escaped the notice of Bini historians?

You are a comedian.

Ogbahu/ Ogbaru as a matter of fact were inhabitants of western Igboland that were pushed back eastwards across the great river by the Edo imperialistic ripple created in Ancient Western Igboland.

I agree. We are 100% Igbo. What I want to understand is what exactly was the catalyst for the migration? I believe that we lived under the influence of the Benin Kingdom for a while so what exactly caused the migration?