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How To Understand John 5:19 - Religion (2) - Nairaland

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Re: How To Understand John 5:19 by acc001(f): 9:55am On Mar 19, 2017
Ajixegun:
Some people will even be asking where has Jesus mentioned Trinity. Mean while Mathew 28:18&19 pointed at it clearly. "[18] And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

[19] Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Hw abt John 3:16

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Re: How To Understand John 5:19 by Shafiiimran99: 9:59am On Mar 19, 2017
Ajixegun:
Some people will even be asking where has Jesus mentioned Trinity. Mean while Mathew 28:18&19 pointed at it clearly. "[18] And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

[19] Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
New Bible dictionary against u

Did this doctrine originate in the Bible or in the early Church? The New Bible Dictionary answers: “The term 'Trinity' is
not itself found in the Bible. It was first used by Tertullian at the close of the 2nd century, but received wide currency and formal elucidation only in the 4th and 5th centuries” (Inter-varsity Press, Downers Grove, Ill., 1996, p. 1209, emphasis added). The word Trinity didn't come into common use until several centuries after the last books of the Bible were completed.

Charles Hodge, a Protestant thinker who trained thousands of ministers in the 1800s, described the Trinity as “mysterious” and “out of analogy with all other objects of human knowledge.” In other words, the doctrine of the Trinity is totally unlike anything else God created or unlike anything else we humans can understand. While promoting belief in the Trinity, Hodge admits that “no such doctrine as that of the Trinity can be adequately proved by any citation of Scriptural passages” ( Systematic Theology , abridged edition, Baker Book House, Grand Rapids, 1988, pp. 166, 168).
Why is the concept of the Holy Spirit as a third person of a supposedly triune Godhead so difficult to grasp or explain? Because the Bible does not teach it! One cannot prove something from the Bible that is not biblical.
Re: How To Understand John 5:19 by ilynem(m): 10:15am On Mar 19, 2017
The problem with our Muslim brothers and sisters is that it is difficult for them to unlearn what they have been taught. So they judge everything from the perspective of the Koran. That's one they can't grasp the fact that Jesus was human on earth. But we have to keep praying for them. Anyone who wants to have an intelligent conversation about the divinity of Jesus must be ready to drop everything he has learnt and discuss with an open mind. I did that once, and that's why my faith is so much stronger today.
Re: How To Understand John 5:19 by ilynem(m): 10:18am On Mar 19, 2017
Shafiiimran99:
New Bible dictionary against u

Did this doctrine originate in the Bible or in the early Church? The New Bible Dictionary answers: “The term 'Trinity' is
not itself found in the Bible. It was first used by Tertullian at the close of the 2nd century, but received wide currency and formal elucidation only in the 4th and 5th centuries” (Inter-varsity Press, Downers Grove, Ill., 1996, p. 1209, emphasis added). The word Trinity didn't come into common use until several centuries after the last books of the Bible were completed.

Charles Hodge, a Protestant thinker who trained thousands of ministers in the 1800s, described the Trinity as “mysterious” and “out of analogy with all other objects of human knowledge.” In other words, the doctrine of the Trinity is totally unlike anything else God created or unlike anything else we humans can understand. While promoting belief in the Trinity, Hodge admits that “no such doctrine as that of the Trinity can be adequately proved by any citation of Scriptural passages” ( Systematic Theology , abridged edition, Baker Book House, Grand Rapids, 1988, pp. 166, 168).
Why is the concept of the Holy Spirit as a third person of a supposedly triune Godhead so difficult to grasp or explain? Because the Bible does not teach it! One cannot prove something from the Bible that is not biblical.
Do you have the problem with the term? You don't have to call it "trinity" if the term is your problem. Just know that God exists in three persons. Now let me ask you. What is the doctrine of God in Islam? Tawhid. Was it ever mentioned in the Koran? Nope. So there you go.
Re: How To Understand John 5:19 by babzlim(m): 10:26am On Mar 19, 2017
GOD BLESS YOU FOR THIS .... THANK YOU FOR SHARING THIS.
Re: How To Understand John 5:19 by babzlim(m): 10:29am On Mar 19, 2017
THANK YOU FOR SHARING THIS ..... GOD BLESSSS YOU.


Did you read the above verse? People often quote it to support their notion that Yahshua the Messiah was just a prophet and not God. One thing they fail to do is check what he's responding to which helps to clarify what he said in the above verse. In verse 17 of that chapter, he was working on a Sabbath, and so he was approached by the Jews who were looking for the slightest excuse to nail him. The Sabbath is a day during which no work is to be done by any ISRAELite, but God is the only One who can work on that day cos he has to keep the universe going. For Jesus to be working on that day, they found it offensive.

John 5:16 And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.

When Yahshua noticed their mood towards him, he made it clear to them why he has the right to work on a Sabbath day unlike other men.

John 5:17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.

This statement of his clearly made him equal with God even as understood by the Jews cos it made them angry and sought the more to kill him. They knew anyone who accords himself the right to work on a Sabbath is making himself equal with God.

John 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

You see, at this point, it gets interesting cos Yahshua made some statements that his persecutors of today have read wrong meanings into instead of allowing his words to read meanings to them. Pls, read the verse below.

John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

Whenever Christians say Christ is God, some people of some other religious belief usually think we are calling him a separate deity. They come against it by quoting the part where he says "of himself he can do nothing", so he's just a prophet relying on God. What Yahshua the Messiah meant by making that statement is that if he was a separate deity on his own, he won't be able to do anything. But since he's part of God Almighty, he's able to do those things he does. If you read that verse 19 carefully, you will see that he affirms that strongly when he said he does what He sees God doing. This means that if God has the ability to sustain the universe, he also has that ability. But if he wasn't part of God but a separate deity, he won't be able to do those things himself.
If you read the succeeding verses, you will see how much of part of God Yahshua is when he speaks of how God loves him and shows him everything.

John 5:20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

He also spoke of how God gave him the same ability to raise the dead.

John 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

He continued by stating how God put every judgment in his hands.

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:


He went further to speak on how God gives him the right to be honoured the same way God himself is honoured.

John 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

Yahshua the Messiah says you have to honour him the same way you honour God. This is made possible by the fact stated above that he has the same attributes as God. Do you remember the words "The Son can do nothing of himself"? If he was a separate deity, he won't be able to do all this and would have a separate attribute. But since he's part of God with the same attribute, he can exercise the same power.





[/quote]
Re: How To Understand John 5:19 by Shafiiimran99: 10:39am On Mar 19, 2017
ilynem:
The problem with our Muslim brothers and sisters is that it is difficult for them to unlearn what they have been taught. So they judge everything from the perspective of the Koran. That's one they can't grasp the fact that Jesus was human on earth. But we have to keep praying for them. Anyone who wants to have an intelligent conversation about the divinity of Jesus must be ready to drop everything he has learnt and discuss with an open mind. Is did that once, and that's why my faith is so much stronger today.
It is xtians that don't read Bible with open mind that is y u don't like ans any question we ask
Re: How To Understand John 5:19 by Shafiiimran99: 10:41am On Mar 19, 2017
ilynem:

Do you have the problem with the term? You don't have to call it "trinity" if the term is your problem. Just know that God exists in three persons. Now let me ask you. What is the doctrine of God in Islam? Tawhid. Was it ever mentioned in the Koran? Nope. So there you go.
It is defined as God only
Re: How To Understand John 5:19 by Yusuf54: 11:11am On Mar 19, 2017
alBHAGDADI:
He is a those things people said about him and more.

in John 8:15, he said he is not going to judge the people he was talking to cos they judged him using human minds. It in no way says he is not going to judge humans at all. Pls, read the previous verse and the following one to understand better.

As for John 12:47, you need to read to understand better what context he was speaking in. His first coming was to save mankind and show them the way to God, not to judge them at that moment. But now that he has shown mankind the way, the next coming will be to judge the ones that disobeyed.
.....U mean Jesus Is GOD,SERVANT,MESSENGER,SON OF MAN AND SON OF GOD.....U said he was talking to the People that he wouldn't Judge them,Are those People not Humans? Moses did Judge among humans,There is nothing wrong in ProphetS of God Judging the People on earth..U must accept the fact that JOHN 8 :15, JOHN 12 : 47 which says JESUS DOES NOT JUDGE and JOHN 5 : 22,27 AND 3O SHOWS BIBLICAL INACCURACY COS THEY CONTRADICTS EACH OTHER......In the gospel of JOHN 5 :31,Jesus says if he bears witness to himself,his testimony is NOT TRUE BUT in that same Gospel IN JOHN 8 :14,Jesus says if he bears witness to himself,his testimony IS TRUE
Re: How To Understand John 5:19 by benji93: 11:17am On Mar 19, 2017
shadeyinka:


Duality or Trinity as the case may be doesn't refer to different identities but the same identity in TWO/THREE morphs.

I assume you are a Muslim therefore, I will ask you this question (according to Islamic theology)

When a person dies, two Angels will ask him three questions as to
1. Who was his Lord while on earth:
2. What was his religion: AND
3. Who was his prophet
The answer he gives will determine whether the Angels will make the grave comfortable for him or not.

Now, my question is:
Suppose as an infidel, I command my people not to bury me but put me in a glass case and put a 24/7 video surveilence: would the Angels still ask me those questions?

If they do, are they referring to my Physical Body or the invisible me inside ME?

Can't you see Duality playing out not to talk about trinity. That invisible me is the real me while my body is also the real me.

A human being is a Trinity just as God is a Trinity!
Bros, how does your example lend credence to trinity.You compare the duality of two different forms to the trinity of the same form.Now you claimed the angels must have been referring to the spirit being of the dead.So your body at moment is at best insignificant.However the components of trinity are significant in unison.There is no point where any of these components loses its significance.
Re: How To Understand John 5:19 by ilynem(m): 11:30am On Mar 19, 2017
Shafiiimran99:
It is defined as God only
My point. You use Tawhid as the doctrine of God. Tawhid was never mentioned in the Koran yet you can see signs of it sprinkled every where in it. Why do we need the work "trinity" in the Bible? When we have proofs of it everywhere.
Re: How To Understand John 5:19 by ilynem(m): 11:33am On Mar 19, 2017
Shafiiimran99:
It is xtians that don't read Bible with open mind that is y u don't like ans any question we ask
Please do well to ask your questions sir.
Re: How To Understand John 5:19 by Jdougha(m): 11:59am On Mar 19, 2017
Ajixegun:
Some people will even be asking where has Jesus mentioned Trinity. Mean while Mathew 28:18&19 pointed at it clearly. "[18] And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

[19] Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Quoting you it is very clear you still don't understand the doctrine of the God head.... Lemme ask you some few questions,
First if we're to believe that Jesus is God as you easily preach... Then
1, who died of the cross...
2, Who slept on the boat...
3, maybe you should read acts 2 vs38...
4,
Re: How To Understand John 5:19 by Jdougha(m): 12:07pm On Mar 19, 2017
Yusuf54:
.....U mean Jesus Is GOD,SERVANT,MESSENGER,SON OF MAN AND SON OF GOD.....U said he was talking to the People that he wouldn't Judge them,Are those People not Humans? Moses did Judge among humans,There is nothing wrong in ProphetS of God Judging the People on earth..U must accept the fact that JOHN 8 :15, JOHN 12 : 47 which says JESUS DOES NOT JUDGE and JOHN 5 : 22,27 AND 3O SHOWS BIBLICAL INACCURACY COS THEY CONTRADICTS EACH OTHER......In the gospel of JOHN 5 :31,Jesus says if he bears witness to himself,his testimony is NOT TRUE BUT in that same Gospel IN JOHN 8 :14,Jesus says if he bears witness to himself,his testimony IS TRUE
The scripture does not contradict itself my brother... When Jesus said if he bears witness of himself it's not true, it means only his witness could not establish him as who he was even though it would have, because the same Bible says out of 2-3 witnesses an issue is established..
If you had carefully read the next verse, it says another beareth record of him..
Re: How To Understand John 5:19 by jnrremedy(m): 12:16pm On Mar 19, 2017
Trinity was an additional doctrine by the early church. its in the history nothing to argue about this
but that doesn't not take aware the oneness of God. Jesus Christ and the holy spirit being one with God does not translate to equality. there are overwhelming evidences in the bible that Jesus himself and the apostles gave that separated the personality of Jesus and God. if we want to be sincere with Trinity we will also equal the holy spirit to God and Jesus but most proponent of this ideology only equate Jesus with God not holy spirit
The unification( don't want to call it trinity) of the 3 personality is beyond human comprehension. True u can't separate God the father from Jesus or holy spirit but that does not translate to equality of personality.
Re: How To Understand John 5:19 by Yusuf54: 12:32pm On Mar 19, 2017
Jdougha:

The scripture does not contradict itself my brother... When Jesus said if he bears witness of himself it's not true, it means only his witness could not establish him as who he was even though it would have, because the same Bible says out of 2-3 witnesses an issue is established..
If you had carefully read the next verse, it says another beareth record of him..
....According to your response,YES N NO MEANS THE SAME THING...LET me take u TO another CONTRADICTIVE SCRIPTURES...MATTHEW 27 VS 46-50,Says Jesus Christ last words were MY GOD MY GOD n he died, LUKE 23 VS 46,Says Jesus last words were FATHER,INTO YOUR HANDS I COMMIT MYSELF while JOHN 19 VS 30,says JESUS last words were IT IS FINISHED, pls say something on that
Re: How To Understand John 5:19 by Yusuf54: 12:33pm On Mar 19, 2017
Jdougha:

The scripture does not contradict itself my brother... When Jesus said if he bears witness of himself it's not true, it means only his witness could not establish him as who he was even though it would have, because the same Bible says out of 2-3 witnesses an issue is established..
If you had carefully read the next verse, it says another beareth record of him..
Re: How To Understand John 5:19 by Shafiiimran99: 12:39pm On Mar 19, 2017
ilynem:
Please do well to ask your questions sir.
Is Jesus equal to God?
Re: How To Understand John 5:19 by Yusuf54: 12:41pm On Mar 19, 2017
Jdougha:

The scripture does not contradict itself my brother... When Jesus said if he bears witness of himself it's not true, it means only his witness could not establish him as who he was even though it would have, because the same Bible says out of 2-3 witnesses an issue is established..
If you had carefully read the next verse, it says another beareth record of him..
...Sir,they contradicts eachother.....Let me take you to another n undeniable contradictive scriptures about Jesus Christ....MATTHEW 27 vs 46-50,says JESUS last words were MY GOD MY GOD , LUKE 23 VS 46,says Jesus last words were FATHER,INTO YOUR HANDS I COMMIT MYSELF while JOHN 19 VS 30,says Jesus last words were IT IS FINISHED...pls say something on it
Re: How To Understand John 5:19 by Annie2059: 12:41pm On Mar 19, 2017
Thomas the disciple declared concerning Jesus, “My Lord and my God” ( John 20:28 ). Jesus does not rebuke him. Titus 2:13 encourages us to wait for the coming of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ (see also 2 Peter 1:1 ). In Hebrews 1:8 , the Father declares of Jesus, “But about the Son he says, ‘Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.’” The Father refers to Jesus as “O God,” indicating that Jesus is indeed God.
In Revelation, an angel instructed the apostle John to only worship God (Revelation 19:10 ). Several times in Scripture Jesus receives worship ( Matthew 2:11 ; 14:33 ; 28:9 , 17 ; Luke 24:52 ; John 9:38 ). He never rebukes people for worshiping Him. If Jesus were not God, He would have told people to not worship Him, just as the angel in Revelation did. There are many other passages of Scripture that argue for Jesus’ deity.
The most important reason that Jesus has to be God is that, if He is not God, His death would not have been sufficient to pay the penalty for the sins of the world (1 John 2:2 ).
Re: How To Understand John 5:19 by Shafiiimran99: 12:47pm On Mar 19, 2017
ilynem:

My point. You use Tawhid as the doctrine of God. Tawhid was never mentioned in the Koran yet you can see signs of it sprinkled every where in it. Why do we need the work "trinity" in the Bible? When we have proofs of it everywhere.
The point is, Trinity wasn't defined before ie the father the son n the holy Spirit are known not to be equal to one God by xtians and that's y many xtians against it
Re: How To Understand John 5:19 by Zubby619(m): 12:52pm On Mar 19, 2017
wow am blessed @ op
Re: How To Understand John 5:19 by thinkmoney(m): 12:54pm On Mar 19, 2017
When I see people like you, I feel so sad on how the Devil as really succeeded in BLINDING THE EYES OF THE PEOPLE. It doesn't amaze me rather it hurt me when I see your like arrogantly try to twist simply plain English. A passage that potrays Jesus like a prince with royal rights to do what others might not normally have the right to do. A passage that portrays Jesus as an obedient and acute learner that does what he sees his father do. A passage with a promise; that shows their are something's that only the Father knows but that he will eventually make known to his Son. A passage that dismiss the notion that Jesus was just some prophet but instead reveal who he his a ever willing, hardworking and Obedient SON of the FATHER.
Hmmn...can you stop to think of how you might have offended Christ with this post on how you have unwittingly advance the agenda of his Arch enemy the Devil?
Re: How To Understand John 5:19 by ilynem(m): 12:56pm On Mar 19, 2017
Shafiiimran99:
Is Jesus equal to God?
Let me as plain and simple as possible. The trinity is one in being but three in persons. How is that so? As a being, I am human and as a person I am ilynem. Now God the father, the son and the Holy spirit are one in Being, or substance or essence in the sense that they are all God. But different in persons or you can say roles. In person, I am below President Buhari , I will always answer to him and he can command me to do anything. But that does not make me less than a human being.
Now Jesus role in the God head is to answer to the Father. That is His role. So in Being, they are one. In person they are three. Hense the Trinity. Any confusion?

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Re: How To Understand John 5:19 by shadeyinka(m): 12:57pm On Mar 19, 2017
Shafiiimran99:
Ya, they do wherever dead is and nobody will know what is going on but this doesn't justify Trinity claim

I wasn't proving the doctrine Trinity. I was explaining it in such a way that a Muslim will understand. From your comment, my assumption that you are a Muslim is wrong.

The post was meant for Muslims
Re: How To Understand John 5:19 by Shafiiimran99: 1:08pm On Mar 19, 2017
Annie2059:
Thomas the disciple declared concerning Jesus, “My Lord and my God” ( John 20:28 ). Jesus does not rebuke him. Titus 2:13 encourages us to wait for the coming of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ (see also 2 Peter 1:1 ). In Hebrews 1:8 , the Father declares of Jesus, “But about the Son he says, ‘Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.’” The Father refers to Jesus as “O God,” indicating that Jesus is indeed God.
In Revelation, an angel instructed the apostle John to only worship God (Revelation 19:10 ). Several times in Scripture Jesus receives worship ( Matthew 2:11 ; 14:33 ; 28:9 , 17 ; Luke 24:52 ; John 9:38 ). He never rebukes people for worshiping Him. If Jesus were not God, He would have told people to not worship Him, just as the angel in Revelation did. There are many other passages of Scripture that argue for Jesus’ deity.
The most important reason that Jesus has to be God is that, if He is not God, His death would not have been sufficient to pay the penalty for the sins of the world (1 John 2:2 ).
Jesus said he was only send to the lost sheep of Israel and to fulfil the law, he never say he came to die for the sin of the world but it was those who corrupted Bible that made that statement
Re: How To Understand John 5:19 by Shafiiimran99: 1:11pm On Mar 19, 2017
[quote author=shadeyinka post=54737405]

I wasn't proving the doctrine Trinity. I was explaining it in such a way that a Muslim will understand. From your comment, my assumption that you are a Muslim is wrong.
How? what re u try to xplian to Muslims?
Re: How To Understand John 5:19 by Shafiiimran99: 1:16pm On Mar 19, 2017
ilynem:

Let me as plain and simple as possible. The trinity is one in being but three in persons. How is that so? As a being, I am human and as a person I am ilynem. Now God the father, the son and the Holy spirit are one in Being, or substance or essence in the sense that they are all God. But different in persons or you can say roles. In person, I am below President Buhari , I will always answer to him and he can command me to do anything. But that does not make me less than a human being.
Now Jesus role in the God head is to answer to the Father. That is His role. So in Being, they are one. In person they are three. Hense the Trinity. Any confusion?
I want simple answer YES or No
Re: How To Understand John 5:19 by solinkz: 1:23pm On Mar 19, 2017
those who don't believe in Jesus Christ can not understand the secret things of God.
therefore no matter how we explain dis things, it will be understood by those who have holy spirit dwelling in dem.
Re: How To Understand John 5:19 by DirewolfofStark(m): 1:27pm On Mar 19, 2017
Shafiiimran99:
I want simple answer YES or No


Shafiiimran99

What a clown you are! No matter how much you beg for it, no Christian will ever acknowledge Muhammad as a "prophet". If I were you I would be more worried about your corrupted koran than our perfect Bible.


Let no one of you say that he has acquired the entire Qur'an, for how does he know that it is all? Much of the Quran has been lost. Thus let him say: "I have acquired what is available”
Ibn Umar (Hafiz Al-Suyuti al-Itiqan Quran)
Re: How To Understand John 5:19 by Annie2059: 1:36pm On Mar 19, 2017
Shafiiimran99:
Jesus said he was only send to the lost sheep of Israel and to fulfil the law, he never say he came to die for the sin of the world but it was those who corrupted Bible that made that statement
And where you the one who corrupted the Bible? What does John 3:16 ( read downwards) tell you and the Bible also says in 1John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world ..

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