shadeyinka:

There were other factors used to determine if an ancient "church writing" should be canonized.
Like:
1. Can they be traced to the Apostles in authorship?
2. Or were the writings in circulation during the times of the Apostles?
3. Was it written in the lifetime of the generation that saw or moved with Jesus?

Of course there were some heretic teachings too of which the church must be careful not to mix with the holy writ. I believe they did a fairly good job.

If it is a matter of tracing it to the apostles then the 4 gospels fail. Just the trial of Jesus alone is enough. How do we know what happened in the trials when the bible itself told us that all jesus' followers fled when he hot arrested. So how do we know all the things that happened during his trial if the only acceptable sources were not even there.

italo:

So who started Christianity, and when did it start?
Oh! Only a relationship with the Father and 'Our Father' prayer.

So who built the Church? Who started the idea of baptism, communion? Whose idea was it that one man -
Peter should feed the flock? Who chose 12 men and made them foundation for the kingdom?


When did this religious aspect start?

Your questions had been answered you are repeating the same thing

PastorAIO:


If it is a matter of tracing it to the apostles then the 4 gospels fail. Just the trial of Jesus alone is enough. How do we know what happened in the trials when the bible itself told us that all jesus' followers fled when he hot arrested. So how do we know all the things that happened during his trial if the only acceptable sources were not even there.

I believe my number 2 carried an OR.

Of course, the gospels were not written by any of the Apostles but they still fit the criteria

Unlike a book like "the gospel according to St Barnabas"

shadeyinka:


Greek word is ekklésia which means the assembly.

In proper context, the church as we know it started in the upper room in the book of Acts.

shadeyinka:


In the real sense, Jesus didn't start Christianity: He was the nucleus/the focus of what is called Christianity.

Apart from teaching the Believers a model prayer, Jesus didn't focus on religion: He focused on men having a relationship with the "

So please when did it start?
A) in the upper room on Pentecost
B) in Antioch a few years later
C) on 397ad by Constantine
D) in the life time of jesus when the bible says he called out ( ekklesia) his disciples.
E) all of the above and more
F) none of the above and less

shadeyinka:


Check historical records and jewish culture

It is you who has to prove your claims.

My historical records tell me that the Catholic Church started at pentecost.

shadeyinka:


Intersting read:
However, you always contrast Catholic vs Protestant and this prevent you from seeing that you did not invent history.

Permit me to paste this from Wikipedia:



So, you can see that your historical records could be biased.

Are the Orthodox Christians under the authority of the Pope?
If they are not Catholics, then your dispute should be with the Orthodox Christians.

Can i take your wikipedia post as your opinion?

Not that when i start scrutinizing it to disprove you, you'll then deny it.

shadeyinka:


I believe my number 2 carried an OR.

Of course, the gospels were not written by any of the Apostles but they still fit the criteria

Unlike a book like "the gospel according to St Barnabas"

What about books Like The Shepherd of Hermas?
Clement1?
Didache?

italo:


Can i take your wikipedia post as your opinion?

Not that when i start scrutinizing it to disprove you, you'll then deny it.

I just wanted you to see that Catholics don't own the monopoly of church history.

The protestant churches may have split from the catholic churches, but it doesn't mean that the Church history started from Martin Luther, or even the Catholic church.

shadeyinka:


I just wanted you to see that Catholics don't own the monopoly of church history.

The protestant churches may have split from the catholic churches, but it doesn't mean that the Church history started from Martin Luther, or even the Catholic church.

Since you are already distancing yourself from your post, I dont see any reason to engage it.

Do you still maintain that there were no Popes before 200AD?

italo:
Since you are already distancing yourself from your post, I dont see any reason to engage it.

Do you still maintain that there were no Popes before 200AD?

Yes, there were no Popes before Constantine, a pagan, crowned Sylvester, and commanded other churches to become loyal to him.

italo:


It is you who has to prove your claims.

My historical records tell me that the Catholic Church started at pentecost.

You have the right to be biased.
But, I object.

shadeyinka:


You have the right to be biased.
But, I object.

You object without any evidence whatsoever.

DoctorAlien:


Yes, there were no Popes before Constantine, a pagan, crowned Sylvester, and commanded other churches to become loyal to him.

Provide evidence.

PastorAIO:





So please when did it start?
A) in the upper room on Pentecost
B) in Antioch a few years later
C) on 397ad by Constantine
D) in the life time of jesus when the bible says he called out ( ekklesia) his disciples.
E) all of the above and more
F) none of the above and less

A.
In the context of Christianity

shadeyinka:


Your questions had been answered you are repeating the same thing

Pls show me where you answered them.

So who started Christianity, and when did it start?
Oh! Only a relationship with the Father and 'Our Father' prayer.

So who built the Church? Who started the idea of baptism, communion? Whose idea was it that one man -
Peter should feed the flock? Who chose 12 men and made them foundation for the kingdom?


When did this religious aspect start?

italo:


You object without any evidence whatsoever.

Let the case rest!
I know your position, you know mine. A thousand argument will probably change nothing on both sides.

DoctorAlien:


Here is a true Roman Catholic who doesn't know jack about his church and what they can do. He gobbles down whatever he is fed by the priests.

Bro, the Roman Catholic church has forged many documents and writings, and edited countless others, simply to lend credence to whatever lies they've decided to teach their flock. The Catholic encyclopedia even admits these forgeries!

The Donation of Constantine is only one, and a good example, of such forgeries. You can read about the Donation of Constantine on Wikipedia.

Very funny, coming from one who started this thread with a forged article from "Ex-nun, Mary Ann Collins," who never existed.

You should bury your head in shame, but no, you're an antiCatholic protestant.

PastorAIO:


What about books Like The Shepherd of Hermas?
Clement1?
Didache?

I haven't read these three books. Do you have soft copies PR are they available on thebweb?

shadeyinka:


Let the case rest!
I know your position, you know mine. A thousand argument will probably change nothing on both sides.

You have no argument, just random statements without evidence or backing.

Arguments are well thought out.

italo:


Pls show me where you answered them.

So who started Christianity, and when did it start?
Oh! Only a relationship with the Father and 'Our Father' prayer.

So who built the Church? Who started the idea of baptism, communion? Whose idea was it that one man -
Peter should feed the flock? Who chose 12 men and made them foundation for the kingdom?


When did this religious aspect start?

Back to the fondermental differences!

...I will build My church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.

Was Peter the Peter the Rock upon which the foundation of the church is laid OR the confession of Peter( You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God)?

There is no church denomination in heaven we only have the Ekklesia (singular).
And there I rest my case.

italo:


Very funny, coming from one who started this thread with a forged article from "Ex-nun, Mary Ann Collins," who never existed.

You should bury your head in shame, but no, you're an antiCatholic protestant.

For what it's worth, Mary Ann Collins could be a pen name. The person behind the name may have chosen not to reveal her true identity. We all know how the catholic church murdered Alberto Rivera(a former priest) after he left the catholic church and exposed them.

italo:


You have no argument, just random statements without evidence or backing.

Arguments are well thought out.

Thanks all the same

italo:


Pls show me where you answered them.

So who started Christianity, and when did it start?
Oh! Only a relationship with the Father and 'Our Father' prayer.

So who built the Church? Who started the idea of baptism, communion? Whose idea was it that one man -
Peter should feed the flock? Who chose 12 men and made them foundation for the kingdom?


When did this religious aspect start?

Answered.

Jesus didn't start the idea of Baptism. I believe you've heard of John the Baptist, he also didn't invent that.

I have made my point. Cheers

DoctorAlien:


The apocryphal books were not canon before 397 A.D. going by concensus of use. And since the catholic church only gathered in the council of Carthage simply to recognize as canon those books which were already canon by concensus of use, we know then that the apocryphal books were not even thought of in that council.

provide proof of this pls.

I know. I know. I know how the catholic church can manufacture forged documents as evidence to support their lies. So, don't even bother showing me any evidence of the council of Carthage listing the apocryphal books as canon.

I guess the catholic church also forged the bible abi?

It is common knowledge that even up till the time of Miltiades, nothing like a "pope" existed. Miltiades was only the Bishop of Rome but catholics now call him a pope.

Bishop Silvester was Miltiades' successor. Silvester was eager to have the Church be spread using Roman roads, Roman wealth, Roman law, Roman
power, and Roman military might. Constantine officially approved of Silvester as the successor of Miltiades. Then he had a coronation ceremony for Silvester and crowned him like a worldly prince. No bishop had ever been crowned before. (Malachi Martin, "The Decline and Fall of the Roman Church," pages 34-35).

italo:


Provide evidence.

Mcowubaba:

[i]The Church had leaders not a Bishop in the time of the Apostles, after Jesus ascended into heaven.

Jesus Christ was never a Catholic and can't be a Catholic, bring any Bible scripture that backs up ur claim..

Jesus Christ was sent by God to save and redeem the world from condemnation, I don't know when HE became a Catholic member

Jesus Christ is the Savior nd not a Catholic member..
Catholic denomination is MAN MADE, not DIVINE, Jesus Christ is DIVINE, know the difference..
Don't personalise Jesus Christ to the Catholic Church, that would be blasphemy.

Jesus Christ is Lord over all, and came as a MORTAL (not as a Catholic) to save ALL

. oga you are arguing a strawman, everybody agrees that Jesus came as man and is Divine, he also established a church matt 16:14-17, the question is whether or not, this same church that Jesus establish is d same one called 'd way' in d 1st century and catholic church in the 2nd century?
dat is d issue.

DoctorAlien:


For what it's worth, Mary Ann Collins could be a pen name. The person behind the name may have chosen not to reveal her true identity. We all know how the catholic church murdered Alberto Rivera(a former priest) after he left the catholic church and exposed them.

From one lie to the other. 'Ex-nun, Mary Ann Collins' never existed. Alberto Rivera was never a Jesuit Priest.

Your whole faith is built on sand by satan, the father of lies.

It's a pity.

shadeyinka:


Back to the fondermental differences!

...I will build My church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.

Was Peter the Peter the Rock upon which the foundation of the church is laid OR the confession of Peter( You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God)?

There is no church denomination in heaven we only have the Ekklesia (singular).
And there I rest my case.

You are still avoiding my questions.


So who started Christianity, and when did it start?

Oh! Only a relationship with the Father and 'Our Father' prayer.

So who built the Church?

Who started the idea of baptism, communion? Whose idea was it that one man -
Peter should feed the flock? Who chose 12 men and made them foundation for the kingdom?


When did this religious aspect start?

Walter A. Elwell (editor), "Evangelical Dictionary of Theology" (Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Book House, 1984), page 141.

We all know how good the catholic church is at forgery. Indeed, Rome was called "the home forgery" during the dark ages. Moreover, stop deluding yourself: the Roman Catholic church did not produce the Bible. The Bible was written by holy men of GOD who were not Roman Catholics. They didn't pray to Mary, they didn't collect indulgences, they didn't institute any office of celibate priesthood filled with homosexual priests who keep on molesting children and women who come for confession, or unholy, corrupt, greedy and immoral popes.

Ubenedictus:
provide proof of this pls.

I guess the catholic church also forged the bible abi?

italo:


From one lie to the other. 'Ex-nun, Mary Ann Collins' never existed. Alberto Rivera was never a Jesuit Priest.

Your whole faith is built on sand by satan, the father of lies.

It's a pity.

LOL. Says the person who believes in a church that is known for forgery and lies.

DoctorAlien:
It is common knowledge that even up till the time of Miltiades, nothing like a "pope" existed. Miltiades was only the Bishop of Rome but catholics now call him a pope.

Bishop Silvester was Miltiades' successor. Silvester was eager to have the Church be spread using Roman roads, Roman wealth, Roman law, Roman
power, and Roman military might. Constantine officially approved of Silvester as the successor of Miltiades. Then he had a coronation ceremony for Silvester and crowned him like a worldly prince. No bishop had ever been crowned before. (Malachi Martin, "The Decline and Fall of the Roman Church," pages 34-35).

This cannot be taken seriously by any right thinking person because the person you're quoting does not exist.

DoctorAlien:


LOL. Says the person who believes in a church that is known for forgery and lies.

You only believe that because non-existent people 'said so.'