Izonpikin:
this guy is just acting like he doesnt know what the catholics are really doing. so you think by making numerous images of mary you are honoring her?? stop trivializing the acts of worship you guys give to mary. i honor my parents but i dont go about hanging their images or making molten images of them and hanging them on my neck or in my house or car. That is tantamount to idol worship.

marys intercession is of no value to any christians. Jesus is there to do the job..

We have images for remembrance and veneration.. not worship..

People wear oyedepo and Suleiman on their necks nowadays and in their cars.. so you could accuse them of idolatry too

Splinz:


And I asked again: When last did your priest come to you and confess his sins and you forgave him?

Bros, the idea is to confess your sins OK. Priests confess to one another. Even the bishops go for confession.

easymancfc:


We have images for remembrance and veneration.. not worship..

People wear oyedepo and Suleiman on their necks nowadays and in their cars.. so you could accuse them of idolatry too

i dont wear nobodys image. those who wear the pictures of oyedepo are also human worshipers. so you all fall under the same umbrella. Are you happy now

Izonpikin:
please read that mark and tell me if the observers who lived close to Jesus and watched him grow in nazarene couldnt differentiate between the two marys...how can you wake up and deny such a clear picture??...ok so i quote another reference on the mark 6 i quoted so that you can run along with your heresy.

Matthew 13:54-56New International Version (NIV)

54 Coming to his hometown, he began teaching the people in their synagogue, and they were amazed. “Where did this man get this wisdom and these miraculous powers?” they asked. 55 “[b]Isn’t this the carpenter’s son? Isn’t his mother’s name Mary, and aren’t his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas? 56 Aren’t all his sisters with us?[/b]Where then did this man get all these things?

easymancfc is telling the whole nairaland otherwise that these indigenes mistook mary magdalene for mary the mother of Jesus. i give up on you my brother.

these people knew Jesus and his half siblings.i guess the carpenter too was another carpenter and not joseph you see ehn i tire for ona.

I'm sorry if you don't know how punctuation marks is used...
Jesus is called "THE SON OF MARY" NOT A SON OF MARY FOR A REASON...

LIKE I SAID THEY ARE CALLED JESUS'S BROTHERS BUT NOT MARY'S CHILDREN... MY STEP BROTHER IS MY BROTHER BUT NOT MY MOTHER'S SON...
besides the Greek word adelphoi can be used for cousins, or uncle-nephew relationship not just blood brothers from the same mother...

IN THE BIBLE MARY IS EITHER REFERED TO AS THE LORD'S MOTHER OR THE MOTHER OF JESUS.. NOT MOTHER OF JAMES OR JOSES OR SIMON

Izonpikin:
i dont wear nobodys image. those who wear the pictures of oyedepo are also human worshipers. so you all fall under the same umbrella. Are you happy now

but you have pictures in your house... hope you know those are images too..

easymancfc:


I'm sorry if you don't know how comma is used...
Jesus is called "THE SON OF MARY" NOT A SON OF MARY FOR A REASON...

LIKE I SAID THEY ARE CALLED JESUS'S BROTHERS BUT NOT MARY'S CHILDREN... MY STEP BROTHER IS MY BROTHER BUT NOT MY MOTHER'S SON...
besides the Greek word adelphoi can be used for cousins, or uncle-nephew relationship not just blood brothers from the same mother...

IN THE BIBLE MARY IS EITHER REFERED TO AS THE LORD'S MOTHER OR THE MOTHER OF JESUS.. NOT MOTHER OF JAMES OR JOSES OR SIMON

choiiii...how else are they step brothers to Jesus if not through mary??...are you insinuating it was joseph who impregnated mary to born Jesus??

so now they could be cousins?? ...

easymancfc:

but you have pictures in your house... hope you know those are images too..

pictures??..let me think...i have none.

so just any picture one has ends up as an idol??..so if i have a beautiful picture of a paradisaic environment it automatically becomes an idol even when i dont recite mantras to it or ask for it to intercede for me in prayers


oboy i tire for you ooo..all these ones na just to bow before mary image you dey so...

Izonpikin:
choiiii...how else are they step brothers to Jesus if not through mary??...are you insinuating it was joseph who impregnated mary to born Jesus??

so now they could be cousins?? ...

they could be step brothers by being Josephs children from another marriage.. they could be cousins by being Mary's relative 's children or Joseph's relative's children

Izonpikin:
pictures??..let me think...i have none.

so just any picture one has ends up as an idol??..so if i have a beautiful picture of a paradisaic environment it automatically becomes an idol even when i dont recite mantras to it or ask for it to intercede for me in prayers


oboy i tire for you ooo..all these ones na just to bow before mary image you dey so...

If you have images of anything on earth or in heaven and show affection or respect for it.. then the qualification you gave to us applies to you...

FYI IT IS NOT THE IMAGE THAT INTERCEDES, JUST LIKE SHOWING AFFECTION FOR YOUR MOM OR WIFE OR SIBLINGS THROUGH A PHOTOGRAPH DOESN'T MEAN YOU LOVE THE PHOTOGRAPH. IT IS NOT INK AND PAPER YOU LOVE BUT YOU LOVE THE PERSON IT REPRESENTS..

easymancfc:


If you have images of anything on earth or in heaven and show affection or respect for it.. then the qualification you gave to us applies to you...

FYI IT IS NOT THE IMAGE THAT INTERCEDES, JUST LIKE SHOWING AFFECTION FOR YOUR MOM OR WIFE OR SIBLINGS THROUGH A PHOTOGRAPH DOESN'T MEAN YOU LOVE THE PHOTOGRAPH. IT IS NOT INK AND PAPER BUT YOU LOVE THE PERSON IT REPRESENTS..

....so why do you have to hold a rosary or look at marys image??...why??...must you behave like babalawos before you approach God in heaven??..besides the fine paradisaic wall paper in my house is strictly for aesthetics and nothing more...i dont venerate the wall paper or call on to it to approach God.

first of all ,let us understand that the scripture is inspired by God(2Tim 3:16-17)that means,that God Himself authored it,so if it is God that authored He also has the ability to use anybody that vailed himself no matter the denomination. talking about the priest vestments, when God commanded moses on how the ark should be built,was also when He moses the other of priestly vestments ( exo 28,29).the priest's in order of Aaron represented our high priest of our profession Jesus Christ, now Aaron is a Shadow of Christ the real priest, so those garments means something.The red :means the blood of Jesus Christ which was shed on the cross for remission of sin,compare(exo12:1-15,Lev: 17:11-15 and John 1:29)purple:Royalty ,the kingship of Christ,White: purity of Christ,Gold:is something that cannot perish which means immortality of Christ and the church(the saints of God)part (1)

easymancfc:


they could be step brothers by being Josephs children from another marriage.. they could be cousins by being Mary's relative 's children or Joseph's relative's children

so you are insinuating Joseph married another wife and never slept with mary

did God command Joseph not to sleep with his wife after gave birth to Jesus..are you serious my friend or youve been smoking something strong??

are you joking

abeg @splinz come help this guy. him matter don pass be careful..

Izonpikin:
so you are insinuating Joseph married another wife and never slept with mary

Joseph too was a perpetual virgin. O virgin Joseph, pray for us.

Izonpikin:

...or youve been smoking something strong??

You mean something like this...

Izonpikin:
so you are insinuating Joseph married another wife and never slept with mary

did God command Joseph not to sleep with his wife after gave birth to Jesus..are you serious my friend or youve been smoking something strong??

are you joking

abeg @splinz come help this guy. him matter don pass be careful..

My friend with all due respect to you.. I'm not as ignorant as you.. there are early Christian writings which did not make it into the Bible, one of them is the protoevangelium of James.. which am sure you've never heard of.. It postulated that theory which I don't necessarily agree with... like I said.. They could be his cousins also and in Hebrew there's no word for cousins so they use brother for any relationship other than father and son in an extended family...

the points still remains.. They are "brothers" of Jesus.
but the Bible no were associates them as Children of Jesus's mother..

It's okay to interprete scriptures differently in order to support your view, but I believe it's best to read scriptures with an open heart for the Holy Spirit to help bring illumination to what you read in scriptures.

Now my question to Catholics: Do you believe with the whole of your heart that Joseph was married to Mary all his life and never had sex with her? The Bible recorded in Matthew 1:25 that Joseph did not know her (Mary) "till" she had brought forth her firstborn Son. Going by your assertions, what do you think the word 'till' meant in the verse cited? Also, why stress 'firstborn Son', if Jesus Christ remained her only child?? In all sincerity, you think Joseph never knew (had sex with) Mary & it would not be glaringly stated in the Bible??

It shouldn't be about defending your assertions but your desire to know the truth.

Regards.

Izonpikin:
must you behave like babalawos before you approach God in heaven??

Have you forgotten the bond between them and babalawos? Idol worship!

my own simple question is who makes one a saint, is it God or the pope,if its God,how does God communicates to man that he has made anyone a saint, if it's the pope then what are the criteria to be made a saint?, where is the authority that Christian do not die according to Christ?, pls enlighten me.

easymancfc:


My friend with all due respect to you.. I'm not as ignorant as you.. there are early Christian writings which did not make it into the Bible, one of them is the protoevangelium of James.. which am sure you've never heard of.. It postulated that theory which I don't necessarily agree with... like I said.. They could be his cousins also and in Hebrew there's no word for cousins so they use brother for any relationship other than father and son in an extended family...

the points still remains.. They are "brothers" of Jesus.
but the Bible no were associates them as Children of Jesus's mother..

but that scripture explicitly shows the indigenes knew of the siblings of Jesus Christ.

ok here is a reference to the scriptures i quoted

galatians 1: 14-19

Galatians 1:14-19New International Version (NIV)

14 I was advancing in Judaism beyond many of my own age among my people and was extremely zealous for the traditions of my fathers. 15 But when God, who set me apart from my mother’s womb and called me by his grace, was pleased 16 to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, my immediate response was not to consult any human being. 17 I did not go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went into Arabia. Later I returned to Damascus.

18 Then after three years, I went up to Jerusalem to get acquainted with Cephas[a] and stayed with him fifteen days. 19 I saw none of the other apostles—only James, the Lord’s brother.



verse 19 once again specifically singles out james as Jesus' brother(sibling).

evidences everywhere mary slept with her God ordained husband and gave birth to other children.


even paul knew Jesus had half siblings...

Izonpikin:
but that scripture explicitly shows the indigenes knew of the siblings of Jesus Christ.

ok here is a reference to the scriptures i quoted

galatians 1: 14-19

Galatians 1:14-19New International Version (NIV)

14 I was advancing in Judaism beyond many of my own age among my people and was extremely zealous for the traditions of my fathers. 15 But when God, who set me apart from my mother’s womb and called me by his grace, was pleased 16 to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, my immediate response was not to consult any human being. 17 I did not go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went into Arabia. Later I returned to Damascus.

18 Then after three years, I went up to Jerusalem to get acquainted with Cephas[a] and stayed with him fifteen days. 19 I saw none of the other apostles—only James, the Lord’s brother.



verse 19 once again specifically singles out james as Jesus' brother(sibling).

evidences everywhere mary slept with her God ordained husband and gave birth to other children.


even paul knew Jesus had half siblings...

From Galatians.. Paul says James the Lords brother is an apostle, there are only two James in the list of the apostles...
James the son of Zebedee and James the Son of alphaeus or James the lesser, He is the Son of alphaeus not Joseph.. unless you think Mary committed adultery or had another husband

Luke 6: 15 and Matthew, and Thomas, and JAMES THE SON of ALPHAEUS , and Simon who was called the Zealot,

Immortal1:
It's okay to interprete scriptures differently in order to support your view, but I believe it's best to read scriptures with an open heart for the Holy Spirit to help bring illumination to what you read in scriptures.

Now my question to Catholics: Do you believe with the whole of your heart that Joseph was married to Mary all his life and never had sex with her? The Bible recorded in Matthew 1:25 that Joseph did not know her (Mary) "till" she had brought forth her firstborn Son. Going by your assertions, what do you think the word 'till' meant in the verse cited? Also, why stress 'firstborn Son', if Jesus Christ remained her only child?? In all sincerity, you think Joseph never knew (had sex with) Mary & it would not be glaringly stated in the Bible??

It shouldn't be about defending your assertions but your desire to know the truth.

Regards.

So what about Matthew 1:24-25 and the claim Jesus was Mary’s “firstborn son” and that Joseph “knew her not until” Christ was born? Does St. Matthew here teach Mary to have had other children?

Exodus 13:1-2 reveals something important about the firstborn in Israel:

The Lord said to Moses, “Consecrate to me all the firstborn; whatever is the first to open the womb among the people of Israel, both of man and beast, is mine.”

The firstborn were not given the title because there was a second-born. They were called firstborn at birth. Hence, Jesus being referred to as firstborn in Matthew 1 does not require there to be more siblings after him.

Propositions about a preposition

Scripture stating Joseph “knew [Mary] not until she brought forth her firstborn” would not necessarily mean they “knew” each other after she brought forth Jesus. Until is often used in Scripture as part of an idiomatic expression similar to our own usage in English. I may say to you, “Until we meet again, God bless you.” Does that mean after we meet again, God curse you? By no means! A phrase like this is used to emphasize what is being described before the “until” is fulfilled. It is not intended to say anything about the future beyond that point. Here are some biblical examples that may help clarify things:

II Samuel 6:23: “And Michal the daughter of Saul had no child to [unti] the day of her death.” Does this mean she had children after she died?
I Timothy 4:13: “Until I come, attend to the public reading of scripture, to preaching, to teaching.” Does this mean Timothy should stop teaching after St. Paul comes?
I Corinthians 15:25: “For he [Christ] must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.” Does this mean Christ’s reign will end? By no means! Luke 1:33 says, “[H]e will reign over the house of Jacob forever and of his kingdom there shall be no end.”

easymancfc:


From Galatians.. Paul says James the Lords brother is an apostle, there are only two James in the list of the apostles...
James the son of Zebedee and James the Son of alphaeus or James the lesser, He is the Son of alphaeus not Joseph.. unless you think Mary committed adultery or had another husband

Luke 6: 15 and Matthew, and Thomas, and JAMES THE SON of ALPHAEUS , and Simon who was called the Zealot,

more scriptures for you

Matthew 12:46
New International Version
While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside[/b], wanting to speak to him.

New Living Translation
As Jesus was speaking to the crowd, [b]his mother and brothers stood outside, asking to speak to him.


John 2:12New International Version (NIV)

12 After this he went down to Capernaum with his mother and brothers and his disciples. There they stayed for a few days.


i cant believe that one can deny mary of her giving birth to other kids so that she can be worshiped by lovers of idolatry in our present time. its baffling.

easymancfc:


they could be step brothers by being Josephs children from another marriage.. they could be cousins by being Mary's relative 's children or Joseph's relative's children

So, you are ready to assert to any other possibility, even the possibility of Joseph marrying another woman in order to justify that Mary never had sex with Joseph. Wow! I guess in your argument, you believe there's zero probability of Joseph having sex with Mary, even though you don't have a proof that erodes all doubt! Hmmm. It is well.

Izonpikin:
more scriptures for you

Matthew 12:46
New International Version
While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside[/b], wanting to speak to him.

New Living Translation
As Jesus was speaking to the crowd, [b]his mother and brothers stood outside, asking to speak to him.


John 2:12New International Version (NIV)

12 After this he went down to Capernaum with his mother and brothers and his disciples. There they stayed for a few days.


i cant believe that one can deny mary of her giving birth to other kids so that she can be worshiped by lovers of idolatry in our present time. its baffling.

those scriptures say the same thing as Mathew 13 and Mark 6..

this is the question how could the apostle James be the son of alphaeus and Mary at the same time

Immortal1:


So, you are ready to assert to any other possibility, even the possibility of Joseph marrying another woman in order to justify that Mary never had sex with Joseph. Wow! I guess in your argument, you believe there's zero probability of Joseph having sex with Mary, even though you don't have a proof that erodes all doubt! Hmmm. It is well.

I have the testimony of the early Christians...

you seem to assume that if Mary and Joseph did not have sex then something must be wrong.. which is not right.. sex is not the be all and end all of marriage..

Scripture never anywhere says Mary had sex with Joseph explicitly.. Mathew 1:25 doesn't say that explicitly

Immortal1:


So, you are ready to assert to any other possibility, even the possibility of Joseph marrying another woman in order to justify that Mary never had sex with Joseph. Wow! I guess in your argument, you believe there's zero probability of Joseph having sex with Mary, even though you don't have a proof that erodes all doubt! Hmmm. It is well.

I have the testimony of the early Christians...

you seem to assume that if Mary and Joseph did not have sex then something must be wrong.. which is not right.. sex is not the be all and end all of marriage..

Scripture never anywhere says Mary had sex with Joseph explicitly.. Mathew 1:25 doesn't say that explicitly...

Izonpikin:
more scriptures for you

Matthew 12:46
New International Version
While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside[/b], wanting to speak to him.

New Living Translation
As Jesus was speaking to the crowd, [b]his mother and brothers stood outside, asking to speak to him.


John 2:12New International Version (NIV)

12 After this he went down to Capernaum with his mother and brothers and his disciples. There they stayed for a few days.


i cant believe that one can deny mary of her giving birth to other kids so that she can be worshiped by lovers of idolatry in our present time. its baffling.

What we believe about Mary shows Christ's Power, if you want to know why that teaching exists ask... don't jump to wrong conclusions

Immortal1:


So, you are ready to assert to any other possibility, even the possibility of Joseph marrying another woman in order to justify that Mary never had sex with Joseph. Wow! I guess in your argument, you believe there's zero probability of Joseph having sex with Mary, even though you don't have a proof that erodes all doubt! Hmmm. It is well.

Is there anyone still in doubt when I said that these people can even deny the very God they claimed to worshiped in order to uphold their traditions?

Now speaking of traditions, here is what Tertullian (made in AD 200), speaking about the non positive scriptural injunction on Sunday worship, said: “Tradition will be held forth to you as the originator of them—custom as their strengthener and faith as their preserver…” (De Corona, ch. 4).

I'm a proud Roman Catholic forever.

Please before you criticize any Catholic doctrine, read the entire Holy Bible (Old&New Testaments) 'with open mind' and you will be amazed @ what you will discover.

Splinz:


Who is a protestant? Where is the insult and the superior argument?

Seems you're a starter in this forum. I'd advice you to go for more studies. At least learn better ways of twisting Scriptures to somehow support your idolatry.

Your outing here is nothing but a disaster. Such wicked butchering of the truths!

I doubt of you read a line of what he stated. your mind seem made up against his position an initio.

LogicStatement:
Q1. Why do Catholics bow to images in the church?
A: Catholics do not bow to images in order to worship them. In fact, it is condemned by God. Ex 20: 1-5 "Then God spoke all these words: I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt,b out of the house of slavery.
You shall not have other gods beside me. You shall not make for yourself an idolc or a likeness of anything* in the heavens above or on the earth below or in the waters beneath the earth; you shall not bow down before them or serve them.d For I, the LORD, your God, am a jealous God, inflicting punishment for their ancestors’ wickedness on the children of those who hate me, down to the third and fourth generation."
But in Numbers 21: 4-9, God asked Moses to make a bronze image of a snake to save the people of Isreal. "They traveled from Mount Hor along the route to the Red Sea,[a] to go around Edom. But the people grew impatient on the way; 5 they spoke against God and against Moses, and said, “Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? There is no bread! There is no water! And we detest this miserable food!” 6 Then the Lord sent venomous snakes among them; they bit the people and many Israelites died. 7 The people came to Moses and said, “We sinned when we spoke against the Lord and against you. Pray that the Lord will take the snakes away from us.” So Moses prayed for the people. 8 The Lord said to Moses, “Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live.” 9 So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, they lived.".

The issue is not having a molten image, the issue is bowing down to it to show your loyalty. The serpent that Moses made, they are not to bow down to it but to look at it, it symbolise Jesus Christ in the cross, and just like God ask Moses to point his staff and speak to the rock, but Moses strike the rock of ages out of annoyance, which resulted to him not entering His rest(the promised land).
God doesn't want anyone bowing to anything that's why he made sure that when he appears you see nothing... Most at times throughout the Bible, they always mistake an angel/messenger for God himself even till date... No one can see God without dying, even Moses that spoke with God face to face never saw His face.
The point is do not bow don to any image, humans are more powerful than we can imagine, do you know we are to judge the angels... How awesome is that... It's disappointing to see the imagine of God bowing to a wooden imagine, it's disappointing as it is pathetic.