This whole topic is based on the hypotheses that a God which interacts with the universe exists. This God is also omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. This description is seen in almost all major religions.


God is supposed to be omniscient. Implying that he/she/it knows all the shortcomings of humans, and how unreliable humans are.

There is no doubt that smoking, for example, is bad for your lungs. No matter where you are in the world, proper equipment can reveal images of the damage done to your lungs by smoking.

Then if you still choose to smoke, its a choice made by your own free will and you are prepared for the consequences.

'sin', on the other hand, isn't so clear. Our conscience is built upon by the morality of the society we live in. Which is why those who haven't been exposed to civilization can easily behead another human being as a sacrifice, and see absolutely nothing wrong with it.

My question is, "Why did God leave his/her/its 'message' to humans, knowing fully well that they would distort it?" God is supposed to be omnipresent as well- which means he/she/it was watching the whole time the 'misinterpretation' was going on.

God, being omnipotent, is capable of presenting his message towards humans in a clear way, devoid of any inconsistencies or logical fallacies, that would be understandable by all humans who come across it. Omnipotence is basically the power to be able to do anything.

If the 'right' religion was clear, there would be only one religion. Just as scientists unanimously believe that smoking of any form does damage to the lungs. There'd be no way to distort it, just like you can't distort scientific facts because they are available for all to see.

I've asked this question, and an answer I got previously was 'because we're supposed to have faith'.

Now that's a dangerous answer. Here's why: if everything is dependent on faith and not understanding, then the only reason you follow your religion is random chance. Which means that you are no different from the tribesman in the thickest African forest who eats his fellow human beings as a form of prayer to his God. After all, its all by faith. Left to him, there are a lot of things that his mere 'mortal mind' cannot comprehend, but he just has to keep eating his brothers and sisters with faith that he's doing the right thing.


Please bring forward your reasonable contributions.

Psalm 139:16

The answer is there

Anyways, waiting to reading meaningful comments from our brethren in Christ

Adam named all the creatures and was having a good time with Eve and other animals in the world, and there was no errors.

Errors came through the devil who capitalised on the fruit man ate which he ate at an unexpected time, despite the fact that God warned man and evidently Adam has been empowered to overcome the devil. Adam just decided to fail to use that power.

Error came through the devil and God has given us Jesus to correct the error, but we still need to develop intimacy and pray that those masterminding this errors also come to the knowledge of the truth.

Lemme ask Sir, how intimate is your relationship with God

Hier:
Adam named all the creatures and was having a good time with Eve and other animals in the world, and there was no errors.

Errors came through the devil who capitalised on the fruit man ate which he ate at an unexpected time, despite the fact that God warned man and evidently Adam has been empowered to overcome the devil. Adam just decided to fail to use that power.

Error came through the devil and God has given us Jesus to correct the error, but we still need to develop intimacy and pray that those masterminding this errors also come to the knowledge of the truth.

Lemme ask Sir, how intimate is your relationship with God

God knows that Adam an eve will eventually eat the fruit, infact he designed them to eat it,

God saw mountain Everest, Antarctica, amazon forest, oops fvck that places, Eden is the best place to plant it,

God allowed Satan inside garden of Eden so as to accomplish his mission,

God watched and enjoyed the show when Satan was busy deceiving eve, watched eve convincing Adam, then showed up after they both had eaten it,

Did God Made the tree very tall so that no human could ever reach the fruit(no), ok he must have insert pins to make it unclimbable (nop), was the fruit attracting and eatable(yes), did Adam and eve had the knowledge of Good and bad(no), did God teach about forgiveness(yes), did God punish them(yes).

Hoping to see churches like dz in the future

obinna58:
God knows that Adam an eve will eventually eat the fruit, infact he designed them to eat it,

You would need to prove this sir

obinna58:
God saw mountain Everest, Antarctica, amazon forest, oops fvck that place, Eden is the best place to plant it

, You mean you can live in Lagos and Calabar at the same time, day and second

obinna58:
God allowed Satan inside garden of Eden so as to accomplish his mission,

Satan was casted out of heaven, well, it might not really be earth, but lemme ask bro, if I give you a land to use and you were robbed in the land, who's fault is it to control the thief, the person I gave the land or the person that lives on the land-man is meant to man the earth
Genesis 1:26 . . . said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

from the above highlighted portion, you see man gave the earth totally to man, and that translate that God has no Dominion over the earth

obinna58:
God watched and enjoyed the show when Satan was busy deceiving eve, watched eve convincing Adam, then showed up after they both had eaten it,

God watched man, expecting man to act in his full capacity, do you know Adam and Eve were not under duress neither were they under some undue influence to eat the fruit, the devil didn't pluck the fruit for man, man went to climb the tree and plucked and ate the fruit.

obinna58:
Did God Made the tree very tall so that no human could ever reach the fruit(no), ok he must have in pins to make it unclimbable (nop), was the fruit attracting and eatable(yes),

The fruit is just like every other fruit, Eve never had any initiative to eat the fruit, but the crafty nature of devil led her to eat, but do you know that, if Adam hadn't ate, what do you think would have happened, lemme ask also, why was it Eve that the devil went to meet, why not Adam, and by the way, Adam has been in the garden for years before God created Eve and Adam never eat the attractive fruit as you suppose, so you see, if there is something bad to be done, all I need do is change your mindset and you would see it as good.

obinna58:
God knows that Adam an eve will eventually eat the fruit, infact he designed them to eat it,

You would need to prove this sir

obinna58:
God saw mountain Everest, Antarctica, amazon forest, oops fvck that place, Eden is the best place to plant it

,

You mean you can live in Lagos and Calabar at the same time, day and second

obinna58:
God allowed Satan inside garden of Eden so as to accomplish his mission,

Satan was casted out of heaven, well, it might not really be earth, but lemme ask bro, if I give you a land to use and you were robbed in the land, who's fault is it to control the thief, the person I gave the land or the person that lives on the land-man is meant to man the earth
Genesis 1:26 . . . said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

from the above highlighted portion, you see man gave the earth totally to man, and that translate that God has no Dominion over the earth

obinna58:
God watched and enjoyed the show when Satan was busy deceiving eve, watched eve convincing Adam, then showed up after they both had eaten it,

God watched man, expecting man to act in his full capacity, do you know Adam and Eve were not under duress neither were they under some undue influence to eat the fruit, the devil didn't pluck the fruit for man, man went to climb the tree and plucked and ate the fruit.

obinna58:
Did God Made the tree very tall so that no human could ever reach the fruit(no), ok he must have in pins to make it unclimbable (nop), was the fruit attracting and eatable(yes),

The fruit is just like every other fruit, Eve never had any initiative to eat the fruit, but the crafty nature of devil led her to eat, but do you know that, if Adam hadn't ate, what do you think would have happened, lemme ask also, why was it Eve that the devil went to meet, why not Adam, and by the way, Adam has been in the garden for years before God created Eve and Adam never eat the attractive fruit as you suppose, so you see, if there is something bad to be done, all I need do is change your mindset and you would see it as good.

obinna58:
did Adam and eve had the knowledge of Good and bad(no), did God teach about forgiveness(yes), did God punish them(yes).

God did not punish them, the devil knew if they eat of the forbidden fruit, a part in them would be able to know good and evmoresod when the devil flogs the m evil part so much, he would make a devil out of man. It's said, iron sharpeth iron, show me what you spend more time with and I would tell you who you are or would be.

Well, Man choose to obey the devil, moreso, God would have told man about the fact that a possible devil might be coming, well, we can't tell about that, but we must note that, Jesus could have fallen for the temptation of Satan, how about that, but Jesus overcame, as a matter of fact, Jesus didn't fall and that was not the only set of temptation Jesus came

Hier:
Adam named all the creatures and was having a good time with Eve and other animals in the world, and there was no errors.

Errors came through the devil who capitalised on the fruit man ate which he ate at an unexpected time, despite the fact that God warned man and evidently Adam has been empowered to overcome the devil. Adam just decided to fail to use that power.

Error came through the devil and God has given us Jesus to correct the error, but we still need to develop intimacy and pray that those masterminding this errors also come to the knowledge of the truth.

Lemme ask Sir, how intimate is your relationship with God

Hello, I'm not quite sure you understand my initial post. By errors, I mean human nature. . .imperfection. Adam & Eve according to the story in your Bible were not perfect, because if they were then they would never have eaten the fruit.

You say, 'Jesus came to correct the error'. How do you know that?

- You were taught that at a very young age and still believe it. Or,

- You somehow 'discovered' Christianity and felt that it was right.

Why did I use the word 'felt'? Because its all about perspective. There is no definite, logical proof available for all to see. Everyone agrees that smoking harms your lungs, and there are no contrary opinions to that. No matter how convinced you might be, there are enough inconsistencies to make the atheist reject it, or the Muslim believe its wrong.

Why can't God, in his supposed omnipotence, make the answers clear to all? Leave absolutely no room for doubt?

Also, you believe in the bible, some believe in the Quran, some in the Torah, etc. All these 'messages' came from humans. God in his omniscience knows that humans are capable of error and make mistakes in passing information across. Why then, did he still use humans as a mode of transmission? The bible is compilation of different texts from different era written by different random people, retrabscrived and re-eduted by different governmental authorities. I can imagine the millions of things lost in transmission. And the whole time, God sat back and watched while this was happening. Why is that so?

Kudos to the OP. You are very intelligent. Everyone is supposed to be a seeker of truth and kowledge. However, there are many questions we will always continue to seek answers to but will never find the answers. Why is that so? I don't know.
In my opinion, as I saw in a Christian movie, God deliberately planted the forbidden tree in the garden as a bait to test man's loyalty to Him seeing that He was already betrayed and backstabbed by the Devil (Lucifer). God made man in His image and gave him a simple test of loyalty: will man obey Him or the devil? We all know d final answer...

platinumphotos:
Kudos to the OP. You are very intelligent. Everyone is supposed to be a seeker of truth and kowledge. However, there are many questions we will always continue to seek answers to but will never find the answers. Why is that so? I don't know.
In my opinion, as I saw in a Christian movie, God deliberately planted the forbidden tree in the garden as a bait to test man's loyalty to Him seeing that He was already betrayed and backstabbed by the Devil (Lucifer). God made man in His image and gave him a simple test of loyalty: will man obey Him or the devil? We all know d final answer...

Thanks. During my time as a strong Christian I always thought a lot about the stories in the bible. It always seemed like one of two things:

-Either the bible was incorrect, or

-God is not omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscient.

Take for example the question you just asked. . .you only 'test' things when you don't know the outcome. In science we carry out experiments to 'see what will happen next'. But for a being that's supposed to be omniscient, what was the use of 'testing' Adam if he already knew the outcome? What's the meaning of life on earth, if its just a test that has already been graded by God? If God has seen the future of a little child as someone who'd grow up, start on the right path but then do terrible things, what's the meaning of his life? Why does the child have to experience all of that? No matter what he does, as long a God is truly omniscient, his destiny has been seen. So what's the meaning of life?

People are willing to die for their religions but nobody is willing to ask the simplest questions.

AnonyNymous:

Thanks. During my time as a strong Christian I always thought a lot about the stories in the bible. It always seemed like one of two things:

-Either the bible was incorrect, or

-God is not omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscient.

Take for example the question you just asked. . .you only 'test' things when you don't know the outcome. In science we carry out experiments to 'see what will happen next'. But for a being that's supposed to be omniscient, what was the use of 'testing' Adam if he already knew the outcome? What's the meaning of life on earth, if its just a test that has already been graded by God? If God has seen the future of a little child as someone who'd grow up, start on the right path but then do terrible things, what's the meaning of his life? Why does the child have to experience all of that? No matter what he does, as long a God is truly omniscient, his destiny has been seen. So what's the meaning of life?

People are willing to die for their religions but nobody is willing to ask the simplest questions.

I think the term "omniscient" is the confusing word here. I can't be certain of the meaning too but in my opinion, it means I have watched a film, let's say '24 hours'. I already know that Jack Bauer will be captured, totured, but he will survive. Then the film goes on and happens exactly as I have seen earlier. Note: I am not responsible for whatever befell Jack Bauer, I only know ahead. That's being omniscient. If something bad happens to good people or Boko Haram bombs a church, yes, God knows before it happened but He isn't the cause...

platinumphotos:

I think the term "omniscient" is the confusing word here. I can't be certain of the meaning too but in my opinion, it means I have watched a film, let's say '24 hours'. I already know that Jack Bauer will be captured, totured, but he will survive. Then the film goes on and happens exactly as I have seen earlier. Note: I am not responsible for whatever befell Jack Bauer, I only know ahead. That's being omniscient. If something bad happens to good people or Boko Haram bombs a church, yes, God knows before it happened but He isn't the cause...

Ad-hoc

You're sinning against the holy ghost for modifying God's word.
Read Psalm 139:16

Full meaning of omniscient is there.. Next time, don't shift accepted définition

platinumphotos:

I think the term "omniscient" is the confusing word here. I can't be certain of the meaning too but in my opinion, it means I have watched a film, let's say '24 hours'. I already know that Jack Bauer will be captured, totured, but he will survive. Then the film goes on and happens exactly as I have seen earlier. Note: I am not responsible for whatever befell Jack Bauer, I only know ahead. That's being omniscient. If something bad happens to good people or Boko Haram bombs a church, yes, God knows before it happened but He isn't the cause...

Interesting analogy. Now let's say for example, that Jack Bauer died in the movie. What would be the use of praying for him to survive? We are not responsible for the plot of the movie, but no matter what we do, we know that he will eventually die. Omniscience of future events basically renders prayers useless. If you keep praying, and praying and praying, whatever is supposed to happen to you will still happen. God has seen the script of the movie of your life, and you will still experience that negative experience.

Using your 'free will' to try to change your circumstances means you won't experience the negative occurrence, right? But God has seen that you'd experience something negative. Can God be wrong? Or do we really have free will?

The analogy can also be faulted because every event that happens is a part of "God's Plan". So you can't just free responsibility for our actions from God, after all every thing is happening according to his plan.

You see how omniscience interferes with free will?

adepeter26:

Ad-hoc

You're sinning against the holy ghost for modifying God's word.
Read Psalm 139:16

Full meaning of omniscient is there.. Next time, don't shift accepted définition

I didn't sin . I gave my opinion. Even at some points, the apostle Paul gave his own personal opinion on issues that weren't clearly defined in the scriptures..

platinumphotos:

I didn't sin . I gave my opinion. Even at some points, the apostle Paul gave his own personal opinion on issues that weren't clearly defined in the scriptures..

If you don't have the holy spirit, you have no right to give ya own perspective about God' s word...
. BTW, did you Read Psalm 139:16?

AnonyNymous:


Interesting analogy. Now let's say for example, that Jack Bauer died in the movie. What would be the use of praying for him to survive? We are not responsible for the plot of the movie, but no matter what we do, we know that he will eventually die. Omniscience of future events basically renders prayers useless. If you keep praying, and praying and praying, whatever is supposed to happen to you will still happen. God has seen the script of the movie of your life, and you will still experience that negative experience.

Using your 'free will' to try to change your circumstances means you won't experience the negative occurrence, right? But God has seen that you'd experience something negative. Can God be wrong? Or do we really have free will?

The analogy can also be faulted because every event that happens is a part of "God's Plan". So you can't just free responsibility for our actions from God, after all every thing is happening according to his plan.

You see how omniscience interferes with free will?

Actually, the whole thing is complicated. I believe prayer changes things. Prayer does make a real difference. So in other words, our destiny is not written for us (as a script to be played out) , it is written by us (we choose how we wanna live). We have free will to do and undo. But God being omniscient already knows what you will do and where you will be in the next 10 years. That doesn't mean he wrote out the script, no, He only had a fore-knowledge. If u pray and evil is averted, God already knows that you will pray and the prayer will work. That's why He said in this word "before you call, I will answer, while you are yet speaking, I will hear". He knows you will call, so the answer is ready made.

adepeter26:

If you don't have the holy spirit, you have no right to give ya own perspective about God' s word...
. BTW, did you Read Psalm 139:16?

I read it. And yes, I have the Holy Spirit.
Any other question?

platinumphotos:

I read it. And yes, I have the Holy Spirit.
Any other question?

I only referenced that verse in respect to ya omniscience yarn

platinumphotos:

Actually, the whole thing is complicated. I believe prayer changes things. Prayer does make a real difference. So in other words, our destiny is not written for us (as a script to be played out) , it is written by us (we choose how we wanna live). We have free will to do and undo. But God being omniscient already knows what you will do and where you will be in the next 10 years. That doesn't mean he wrote out the script, no, He only had a fore-knowledge. If u pray and evil is averted, God already knows that you will pray and the prayer will work. That's why He said in this word "before you call, I will answer, while you are yet speaking, I will hear". He knows you will call, so the answer is ready made.

OK, question.

God knows I will eat beans this afternoon. He has revealed this to some pastor already. Can I still use my free will to eat rice?

.

AnonyNymous:

OK, question.

God knows I will eat beans this afternoon. He has revealed this to some pastor already. Can I still use my free will to eat rice?

No, He knows you will want to eat beans but eventually eat rice (by your free will) . For example, He told Peter before hand that he would betray Him three times and he still did (willingly, by his free will) .

Hier:
Adam named all the creatures and was having a good time with Eve and other animals in the world, and there was no errors.

Errors came through the devil who capitalised on the fruit man ate which he ate at an unexpected time, despite the fact that God warned man and evidently Adam has been empowered to overcome the devil. Adam just decided to fail to use that power.

Error came through the devil and God has given us Jesus to correct the error, but we still need to develop intimacy and pray that those masterminding this errors also come to the knowledge of the truth.

Lemme ask Sir, how intimate is your relationship with God

So God didn't foresee this "error" that was supposed to occur in the Garden of Eden? How could God have left Eve to the Devil, knowing that Eve was naive and the Devil was infinitely smarter, even though he was there watching the whole time, since he was supposed to be omnipresent?

platinumphotos:
Kudos to the OP. You are very intelligent. Everyone is supposed to be a seeker of truth and kowledge. However, there are many questions we will always continue to seek answers to but will never find the answers. Why is that so? I don't know.
In my opinion, as I saw in a Christian movie, God deliberately planted the forbidden tree in the garden as a bait to test man's loyalty to Him seeing that He was already betrayed and backstabbed by the Devil (Lucifer). God made man in His image and gave him a simple test of loyalty: will man obey Him or the devil? We all know d final answer...

It is absolutely IMPOSSSIBLE for an omniscient God who already knows everything that has happened and will happen, to carry out tests!

platinumphotos:

I think the term "omniscient" is the confusing word here. I can't be certain of the meaning too but in my opinion, it means I have watched a film, let's say '24 hours'. I already know that Jack Bauer will be captured, totured, but he will survive. Then the film goes on and happens exactly as I have seen earlier. Note: I am not responsible for whatever befell Jack Bauer, I only know ahead. That's being omniscient. If something bad happens to good people or Boko Haram bombs a church, yes, God knows before it happened but He isn't the cause...

You've got the wrong idea, bro. If God knows that something evil and undesirable is going to happen and when and how it will happen, and is ALWAYS present at every such scene, doesn't want them to happen, and has the power to prevent their occurrence, why then do they still happen?

No one has yet answered Epicurus' millenia old challenge to theists, and it is just absolutely impossible for any Abrahamic theist to answer it because the qualities ascribed to their God are incompatible with the situation in the world. If such an omnibeing exists, it is impossible that the world would be as it is. The existence of this world and that of the Abrahamic God are MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE

"God is either impotent, evil, or IMAGINARY" - Sam Harris

platinumphotos:

No, He knows you will want to eat beans but eventually eat rice (by your free will) . For example, He told Peter before hand that he would betray Him three times and he still did (willingly, by his free will) .

Peter didn't make a conscious effort. Assuming Peter heard the prophecy like that, could he have used his free will to lock himself in an empty room? So as not to betray Jesus?

Zandha:
You've got the wrong idea, bro. If God knows that something evil and undesirable is going to happen and when and how it will happen, and is ALWAYS present at every such scene, doesn't want them to happen, and has the power to prevent their occurrence, why then do they still happen?

No one has yet answered Epicurus' millenia old challenge to theists, and it is just absolutely impossible for any Abrahamic theist to answer it because the qualities ascribed to their God are incompatible with the situation in the world. If such an omnibeing exists, it is impossible that the world would be as it is. The existence of this world and that of the Abrahamic God are MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE

"God is either impotent, evil, or IMAGINARY" - Sam Harris

As long as we have free will, evil will continue to happen in the world. If someone decides to kill ten Christians today, he will do it successfully as long as he has free will. God can/may however intervene sometimes, and that's called a miracle. Remember the 3 Hebrews that said God had the power to deliver them from the fiery furnace but even if He didn't...... That means God may decide not to intervene.
I understand your point clearly, we can't explain somethings absolutely because we as humans cannot fully understand. Maybe we will ask Him when we see Him face to face.

AnonyNymous:

Peter didn't make a conscious effort. Assuming Peter heard the prophecy like that, could he have used his free will to lock himself in an empty room? So as not to betray Jesus?

Every conscious effort to stop the fulfillment of such prophecies is only an indirect effort to aid it's fulfillment. Remember Joseph? Every effort of the brothers and others are only the required efforts to fulfill the prophecy.

Zandha:
It is absolutely IMPOSSSIBLE for an omniscient God who already knows everything that has happened and will happen, to carry out tests!

2 Chronicles 32:31
" ...God withdrew from him, in order to test him, that He might know all that was in his heart."

...

platinumphotos:

As long as we have free will, evil will continue to happen in the world. If someone decides to kill ten Christians today, he will do it successfully as long as he has free will. God can/may however intervene sometimes, and that's called a miracle. Remember the 3 Hebrews that said God had the power to deliver them from the fiery furnace but even if He didn't...... That means God may decide not to intervene.
I understand your point clearly, we can't explain somethings absolutely because we as humans cannot fully understand. Maybe we will ask Him when we see Him face to face.

Your freewill argument is invalid, bro, and I will show you why. Did God kill any offender in the Bible AGAINST his will? Did God make people prophets AGAINST their will? Did God make Paul an Apostle AGAINST his will? Does God protect Christians AGAINST the evil will of sinister people out to cause them harm? If the answer to all these is yes, then God doesn't give a fuck_ about freewill! So, why infringe on people's freewill when it suits him, but give them free reign when his interference REALLY MATTERS?

Why should God disregard a person's freewill and make him a Pastor by force, but cannot show the same disregard towards the freewill of a pedophilic rapist trying to defile an innocent feeble little girl?

Why should God disregard the freewill of ritualists trying to kidnap a person, but show no such disregard the next day towards the freewill of the ritualists to kidnap someone else for diabolical purposes?

Why doesn't he disregard the freewill of suicide bombers and stop them in their tracks? The free will of armed robbers? The free will of public fund looters? The free will of the American Ronald Reagan to help Afghan terrorists against the atheist soviets, empowering Islamic radicals as a consequence, and making us suffer their terror till today?

Does an hurricane have free will? Do tornados? Does fire?

Why doesn't God interfere in all of these instances even though he is PRESENT WATCHING the victims, closer to their very mind and body than they can ever imagine, and can even see the horror through their eyes and feel it through their skins? Either this God doesn't exist or he's the most fucked_ up psychopathic lunatic in the entire universe.

And, no, nothing here is beyond human understanding. It takes just a little bit of common sense. Not even close to a quarter of the sophisticated thinking required to get by in Physics class - and Physics is a HUMAN subject.

An2elect2:
...

Are you an atheist? The picture you uploaded can only prove the atheist's point further. If God is freer than man and God's freedom RESTRICTS MAN'S FREEDOM, why is man allowed to go against God's will with his "free will", since he's supposed to be the LOSER whenever his freedom goes against God's freedom? Or is the man in that picture an atheist trying to prove a point?

platinumphotos:

Every conscious effort to stop the fulfillment of such prophecies is only an indirect effort to aid it's fulfillment. Remember Joseph? Every effort of the brothers and others are only the required efforts to fulfill the prophecy.

So basically it means you're saying the future is set in stone and nothing can change it! That is, we have free will, but its just an illusion. Its not real. No matter how we think things through, our actions have to conform to a pattern that's already existing in spacetime! Interesting!


But then, if it is so. . . 'evil' people cannot be blamed for their actions.