adepeter26:

Remember you said everything must have a creator and since universe is so complex, God created it.
For god to have the universe, something more complex than god must have created Him which is a Dog.

Why terminate / breakout the loop at God? I believe you know what LOOP(in programming) is

And yet you disagree with bigbang? What's the difference between big bang and what you just stated above?



You wanna tell me humans 200years ago are still same humans in 2017?
Ain't we evolving technologically?
Ain't we evolving genetically and physiologically?

Oh, you think evolution is a one night event just like God magically created the universe in 6days? That isn't how evolution work.


Divine fallacy.

If you gathered nothing better to say stop yarning this anthem joor.

Well, animals have been evolving for same time period yet non of them has evolved to the speech of a 4 year old or writing ability of a kingergartner.

Religion beats you because you start with nothing turning into something. Religions starts with the existence of a timeless being, plus religion works in real life. Prayers mysteriously get answered and people's lives get more peaceful and wholesome.

ameri9ja:


Well, animals have been evolving for same time period yet non of them has evolved to the speech of a 4 year old or writing ability of a kingergartner.

You fail to grasp what evolution is all about.
I believe Google is there for you cos this forum isn't a tutor website or evolution class.

Religion beats you because you start with nothing turning into something.

You're confused bro....
Check your opening post and see how you're contradicting yourself.

Religions starts with the existence of a timeless being, plus religion works in real life.

LOL. But you disagree with big bang. Funny enough me can't write too much jàre.

Prayers mysteriously get answered

Why haven't we heard of prayers of people confirmed be infected with HIV through BLOTTING TECHNIQUES, PCR and ELISA become negative from positive?
Why do we even have to pray in the first instance?

and people's lives get more peaceful and wholesome.

Same way I don't have any religion. I'm happy ND comfortable

adepeter26:

You fail to grasp what evolution is all about.
I believe Google is there for you cos this forum isn't a tutor website or evolution class.

You're confused bro....
Check your opening post and see how you're contradicting yourself.

LOL. But you disagree with big bang. Funny enough me can't write too much jàre.

Why haven't we heard of prayers of people confirmed be infected with HIV through BLOTTING TECHNIQUES, PCR and ELISA become negative from positive?
Why do we even have to pray in the first instance?

Same way I don't have any religion. I'm happy ND comfortable

In a million years animals will still not be able to talk like a 4 year old and will still not be able to write like a kindergartener. Humans are simply radically different. Same way living things are radically different from nonliving things.

I never contradicted myself. Religion starts with the existence of a timeless intelligent being, and that can answer those questions. Big bang from NOTHING makes no sense. Be honest with yourself.

What was your other question again?

ameri9ja:


In a million years animals will still not be able to talk like a 4 year old and will still not be able to write like a kindergartener. Humans are simply radically different. Same way living things are radically different from nonliving things.

I never contradicted myself. Religion starts with the existence of a timeless intelligent being, and that can answer those questions. Big bang from NOTHING makes no sense. Be honest with yourself.

What was your other question again?

God exist bro. Bye

ameri9ja:


In a million years animals will still not be able to talk like a 4 year old and will still not be able to write like a kindergartener. Humans are simply radically different. Same way living things are radically different from nonliving things.

Who told you that animals don't communicate or talk to each just because you don't understand Chinese does it mean China people don't talk gosh

I never contradicted myself. Religion starts with the existence of a timeless intelligent being and that can answer those questions. Big bang from NOTHING makes no sense. Be honest with yourself.

Are you kidding me please read what you wrote again

ameri9ja:
1. How did we go from nothing existing to things existing?

Most scientists believe that the big bang was the beginning of time. If so, then there was never a time when nothing existed. If so, the question of what existed before the big bang is a bad question, like asking for the square root of -1, or the letter that comes before A.

2. How did things go from non-living to living?

This is called abiogenesis. Scientists have been able to demonstrate that many of the complex chemicals that make up living things can arise spontaneously in the kind of environment that existed around the time that life started. But they don't know exactly how the first living thing came to be. It must have been an extremely rare and unlikely event, but it only had to happen once during a period of billions of years. People are rarely struck by lightning, but you wouldn't be surprised to learn that one person out of 1.2 billion Africans was struck by lightning once.

3. How did things change from animals to man - in other words, how did man come about, being so completely different from other animals.

There was never a change from animals to man, because we are animals. We are apes. We are naked, like elephants and hippos. We are highly intelligent, like killer whales and dolphins. We utterly dominate the other animals because our ancestors found themselves in a unique environment where those who possessed bigger brains were more likely to reproduce than those who were stronger and faster, but dumber.

Seun:

Most scientists believe that the big bang was the beginning of time. If so, then there was never a time when nothing existed. If so, the question of what happened before the big bang is a nonsense quesion, like asking for the square root of -1, or the letter that comes before A.


This is called abiogenesis. Scientists have been able to demonstrate that many of the complex chemicals that make up living things can arise spontaneously in the kind of environment that existed around the time that life started. But they don't know exactly how the first living thing came to be. It must have been an extremely rare and unlikely event, but it only had to happen once during a period of billions of years. People are rarely struck by lightning, but you wouldn't be surprised to learn that one person out of 1.2 billion Africans was struck by lightning once.


There was never a change from animals to man, because we are animals. We are apes. We are hairless, like elephants and chimps. We are highly intelligent, like killer whales and dolphins. We utterly dominate the other animals because our ancestors found themselves in a unique environment where those who possessed bigger brains were more likely to reproduce than those who were stronger and faster, but dumber.

Seun, so you believe in big bang theory. Oya come and answer these simple questions.

Where those scientist there when big bang occurred?

If not, what evidence do they have?

Have you tried experimenting this in your room I.e have you make any attempt to make something out of nothing?

If yes, please explain.

Seun do not run from my questions. I still have more questions to ask o.

Seun, when it comes to Christian's thread, you're always forming professor of Bible.

This is your area of specialization o, don't run from my questions.

luvmijeje:
Seun, so you believe in big bang theory.

I don't believe in it. I accept it as the best explanation that we have at this time. If a better explanation comes along, I'll embrace it.

Oya come and answer these simple questions.
Where those scientist there when big bang occurred?
If not, what evidence do they have?

Numerous observations and experiments that support the theory. One of these observations is that the universe is constantly expanding.

Have you tried experimenting this in your room i.e have you make any attempt to make something out of nothing?

I don't see how my inability to create something from nothing proves the existence of an all-powerful sentient creature who needs to be worshipped.

Seun:
I don't believe in it. I accept it as the best explanation that we have at this time. If a better explanation comes along, I'll embrace it.

Hehehe! Seun, you're in soup today. You must not run o.

You accept a theory base on a theory that the universe is expanding.

You didn't accept a theory base on a fact. You didn't accept a theory base on a concrete fact. You didn't question it. You didn't bother carrying out a research to find out how true it is.

But you believe men who have not yet conquered their own planetary system talkless of our universe.

Seun is that not the definition of Faith?

Seun, how are you different from the average Christian?

Seun:

Most scientists believe that the big bang was the beginning of time. If so, then there was never a time when nothing existed. If so, the question of what happened before the big bang is a nonsense quesion, like asking for the square root of -1, or the letter that comes before A..

In other words, atheism is now based on believe just like religion, isn't it?

luvmijeje:
You accept a theory base on a theory that the universe is expanding.
You didn't accept a theory base on a fact. You didn't accept a theory base on a concrete fact. You didn't question it. You didn't bother carrying out a research to find out how true it is.

But you believe men who have not yet conquered their own planetary system talkless of our universe

To be brutally frank, I haven't studied the Big Bang theory. Cosmology is boring to me. I accept it because I trust the scientific community that came up with the theory. It makes sense to trust the scientific community because their theories are the basis for the technologies we rely upon. This trust is not absolute, because I know that scientists do make mistakes, but they are infinitely more trustworthy than any religion.

Seun is that not the definition of Faith? Seun, how are you different from the average Christian

No. Faith is when you just choose to believe something, and to disregard any evidence/fact that contradicts what you have chosen to believe.

Seun:

To be brutally frank, I haven't studied the Big Bang theory. Cosmology is boring to me. I accept it because I trust the scientific community that came up with the theory. It makes sense to trust the scientific community because their theories are the basis for the technologies we rely upon. This trust is not absolute, because I know that scientists do make mistakes, but they are infinitely more trustworthy.


No. Faith is when you just choose to believe something, and to disregard any evidence/fact that contradicts what you have chosen to believe.

Acceptance based on trust.

Seun, I don't trust your definition of Faith. Let me check Merriam Webster dictionary

FAITH is a strong belief or trust in someone or something

Seun, can you see your life? You're not different from an average Christian.

And you have the gut to criticize Christians.

Don't ban me o.

ameri9ja:
Atheists in the house, I truly want to know your answers to the following questions:
Without a supreme eternal being how are the following posssible:

1. How did we go from nothing existing to things existing?
2. How did things go from non-living to living?
3. How did things change from animals to man - in other words, how did man come about, being so completely different from other animals.

lalasticlala your 2 cents is needed
Seun, u r an atheist, no? Which other mods r atheists? Ishilove, mynd44 ?

These are scientific, philosophical and metaphysical questions, NOT questions for atheists. These are questions for humanity's Intelligentsia, most of which we have NO definitive ANSWERS to YET. Even YOU asking them DON'T have the answers! If anyone claims he does, oh well, let him show us his answers with convincing EVIDENCE and PROOFS. We've had enough bullsh!t already, though. So I've got a truckload of invectives - never mind, they're just variations of the word, 'moron_' - to hit any bullsh!ter with, who comes to insult our intelligence any further with some ridiculous claptrap. SO, WHO HAS THE ANSWERS AND KNOWS MORE THAN EVERY MEMBER OF THE INTELLIGENTSIA COMBINED? I'm waiting for him/her to show up.

Just to reiterate, atheism is simply (weakly and implicitly) the lack of belief in the existence of deities, owing to lack of evidence or (strongly and explicitly) the belief that deities do not exist! So, why are you directing your question at atheists? It's not OUR problem. It's a problem for humanity's intellectuals. Savvy?!

And in conclusion, I want you to have this in mind:

The First Cause is not automatically equal to A conscious, perfect, omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent deity OUTSIDE SPACE AND TIME (the oxymoron: how can you be outside space and time and also be omnipresent at the same time? Incoherent bullsh!t. Transcendence and immanence are somewhat mutually exclusive).

The First Cause is simply equal to THE FIRST CAUSE!!! Which can be ANYTHING. What is it? I don't know, and neither do you.

Seun:

Most scientists believe that the big bang was the beginning of time. If so, then there was never a time when nothing existed. If so, the question of what happened before the big bang is a nonsense quesion, like asking for the square root of -1, or the letter that comes before A.


This is called abiogenesis. Scientists have been able to demonstrate that many of the complex chemicals that make up living things can arise spontaneously in the kind of environment that existed around the time that life started. But they don't know exactly how the first living thing came to be. It must have been an extremely rare and unlikely event, but it only had to happen once during a period of billions of years. People are rarely struck by lightning, but you wouldn't be surprised to learn that one person out of 1.2 billion Africans was struck by lightning once.


There was never a change from animals to man, because we are animals. We are apes. We are hairless, like elephants and hippos. We are highly intelligent, like killer whales and dolphins. We utterly dominate the other animals because our ancestors found themselves in a unique environment where those who possessed bigger brains were more likely to reproduce than those who were stronger and faster, but dumber.

Well, first of all let me really thank you for your very intelligent and very well-reasoned answer
I am really humbled that the great founder of Nairaland actually responded to me. Me, who joined Nairaland literally two days ago. Shows what a truly great and truly democratic forum this is. Let me also use this opportunity to thank you for not being too money hungry. You could have easily put all sorts of ads on the site. Thanks for resisting that temptation and keeping it so simple, democratic, and free.

Now to the question at hand, well, you have people over the centuries who claim to have encountered an entity who told them he was timeless and that he created the universe. You don't claim to have encountered anything. Your position is that they are all lying. Well, clearly, there are many things science and logic cannot explain. Clearly there is a spiritual world, hence things like prophesies, sightings, demons and such. Your theory cannot even start to explain any of them. Religion, on the other hand, can, to the last detail. And not through theories or intuition but through direct contact with supernatural entities. You, on the other hand, don't claim to have encountered anything. The scientists themselves have said that over 90% of reality, the universe, is made up of dark matter. And they have admitted they don't know what that dark matter is or its nature. Spiritual world? Astonishing.

Once again thanks for keeping Nairaland great and simple. Thanks for everything.

TLuzzie:
These are scientific, philosophical and metaphysical questions, NOT questions for atheists. These are questions for humanity's Intelligentsia, most of which we have NO definitive ANSWERS to YET. Even YOU asking them DON'T have the answers! If anyone claims he does, oh well, let him show us his answers with convincing EVIDENCE and PROOFS. We've had enough bullsh!t already, though. So I've got a truckload of invectives - never mind, they're just variations of the word, 'moron_' - to hit any bullsh!ter with, who comes to insult our intelligence any further with some ridiculous claptrap. SO, WHO HAS THE ANSWERS AND KNOWS MORE THAN EVERY MEMBER OF THE INTELLIGENTSIA COMBINED? I'm waiting for him/her to show up.

Just to reiterate, atheism is simply (weakly and implicitly) the lack of belief in the existence of deities, owing to lack of evidence or (strongly and explicitly) the belief that deities do not exist! So, why are you directing your question at atheists? It's not OUR problem. It's a problem for humanity's intellectuals. Savvy?!

And in conclusion, I want you to have this in mind:

The First Cause is not automatically equal to A conscious, perfect, omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent deity OUTSIDE SPACE AND TIME (the oxymoron: how can you be outside space and time and also be omnipresent at the same time? Incoherent bullsh!t. Transcendence and immanence are somewhat mutually exclusive).

The First Cause is simply equal to THE FIRST CAUSE!!! Which can be ANYTHING. What is it? I don't know, and neither do you.

Let me first thank you for your smart answer.
The problem is that sincere religion did not come from imagination or nothing. It came from direct experience of sometjing/someone supernatural.
Someone put the Koran on mohamed's lips, a total illiterate. St Paul was bent on stamping out Christianity until he encountered someone and became Christianity's biggest proponent, etc.

You admit you don't know. But there are people who emphatically and declaratively say they KNOW without a doubt because of supernatural encounters they had. You don't claim any encounters yourself.
Your only defence is that they are all lying. The coming if Christ was foretold by various people thousands of years before. And when he came he said it was him they were talking about and that his words would be repeated for thousands of years. Here we r thousands of years later still repeating his words. How does your theory explain all that?

ameri9ja:


Let me first thank you for your smart answer.
The problem is that sincere religion did not come from imagination or nothing. It came from direct experience of sometjing/someone supernatural.
Someone put the Koran on mohamed's lips, a total illiterate. St Paul was bent on stamping out Christianity until he encountered someone and became Christianity's biggest proponent, etc.

You admit you don't know. But there are people who emphatically and declaratively say they KNOW without a doubt because of supernatural encounters they had. You don't claim any encounters yourself.
Your only defence is that they are all lying. The coming if Christ was foretold by various people thousands of years before. And when he came he said it was him they were talking about and that his words would be repeated for thousands of years. Here we r thousands of years later still repeating his words. How does your theory explain all that?

Since you claim to KNOW, what's the EVIDENCE for all of this?

Seun:

Most scientists believe that the big bang was the beginning of time. If so, then there was never a time when nothing existed. If so, the question of what happened before the big bang is a nonsense quesion, like asking for the square root of -1, or the letter that comes before A.


This is called abiogenesis. Scientists have been able to demonstrate that many of the complex chemicals that make up living things can arise spontaneously in the kind of environment that existed around the time that life started. But they don't know exactly how the first living thing came to be. It must have been an extremely rare and unlikely event, but it only had to happen once during a period of billions of years. People are rarely struck by lightning, but you wouldn't be surprised to learn that one person out of 1.2 billion Africans was struck by lightning once.


There was never a change from animals to man, because we are animals. We are apes. We are hairless, like elephants and hippos. We are highly intelligent, like killer whales and dolphins. We utterly dominate the other animals because our ancestors found themselves in a unique environment where those who possessed bigger brains were more likely to reproduce than those who were stronger and faster, but dumber.

BTW, I don't think killer whales will ever start writing books or wearing clothes even in a trillion years.

ThePrinceOfLuzz:
Since you claim to KNOW, what's the EVIDENCE for all of this?

I don't claim to know at all. But there are people who say they emphatically know due to supernatural encounters. Remember "God" as presented by religion came about through direct experiences. It was not theoretical or made-up. I mean Moses, Muhammad, Paul had direct experiences of the Supreme Being and they tried to convey him and his message as he presented himself to them. I'd tend to believe them more than someone who says he doesn't know but that maybe a big bang happened from nothing.

DeepEyes:


Oh sorry but I doubt ud get any proper response since atheist, just like theists, hate when their beliefs are questioned beyond their mental capacity. Ironic isn't it? They're​ guilty of the exact thing they condemn all believers for- blind belief! Lol. They are very logical until they have to get illogical to support their logic. Lemme explain: standard science law of causes and affects is suddenly benched to argue that there was once a "Random" big bang out of "nowhere" that started time, space and evolution. See what I mean? Lol

To answer ur question tho, the subject of God is complexity, as only religion posits any kind of practical explanation. But we know, from history, that religions can't be trusted due to their mostly contrived ideologies. This "made up" nature of religion is what disqualifies it and it's claims, atleast for an intellectual mind. Science on the other hand tries to be as investigative as possible, until they have no more leads and resort to stalemate hypothesis disguised as theories. This is where science fails too. So both the theist and atheist end up in the same boat of knowledgeable ignorance. Wouldn't it suffice to just admit that we don't know, rather than feigning one knowledge or the other?

There's obviously an origin/source/creator but its probably not that "God" depicted by religion as an attention-seeking insecure being.

What do you think of Seun's answer above

hopefulLandlord:

can you mention such atheists that straight up claim to KNOW for sure that there's no greater being?

such an atheist would most likely make that claim due to lack of evidence for such a being outside some gaps in our knowledge so far

as for your "agnostic" part, Theism/atheism speaks to what you *believe*. Gnosticism/agnosticism speaks to what you *know*. One can claim to be a gnostic theist (very common), an agnostic theist (far less common but not unusual), an agnostic atheist (virtually all atheists are this), or a gnostic atheist (these are incredibly rare, and will usually clarify their position by stating that they only take this position regards to specific god claims, as Matt Dillahunty does). Richard Dawkins, easily the most famous atheist advocate, calls himself an agnostic atheist, because he does not believe, but he does not claim to know for certain.

I myself claim to be mostly an agnostic atheist. To the specific claim of the Abrahamic god, I will go so far as to claim gnostic atheism - not because of any special knowledge on my part, but simply because I have yet to hear a description of this deity that passes so much as basic logical coherence. There may yet be a god - but if we do discover one someday, it most likely won't be the one the bible/Koran/Torah/Mormon etc talks about.

What do you think of Seun's answer above?

adepeter26:
1). Personally, I don't know. Before that, it's some religion by the way that passively claim something came from nothing.

2). Atheism has never made such claim. And BTW as well, science is not the only thing atheism depend on but they agree for now that only science has a good and logical explanation for the events happening around us.

3). I believe evolution is there to answer this question. I myself really don't know much about this evolution stuff cos I can never know everything and don't even want to know everything.



In summary, we don't know. But because we don't know doesn't mean religion should shove the concept of GOD OF THE GAPS down our throat.
We don't know doesn't stop us from asking you that know important logical and critical questions.

If you know, can you please tell us the answers to the question

What do you think of Seun's answer above?

Richirich713:
In a nutshell the atheistic picture of universe can be seen the below:

What do you think of Seun's answer above?

jonbellion:
It's best to admit not knowing atimes
There are still a lot of things we don't know

What do you think of Seun's answer above?

We guess just like all religions do

God exist ooo @OP

ameri9ja:


I don't claim to know at all. But there are people who say they emphatically know due to supernatural encounters. Remember "God" as presented by religion came about through direct experiences. It was not theoretical or made-up. I mean Moses, Muhammad, Paul had direct experiences of the Supreme Being and they tried to convey him and his message as he presented himself to them. I'd tend to believe them more than someone who says he doesn't know but that maybe a big bang happened from nothing.

So, if I claimed to have personally encountered the creator of the universe, and that he claims to be Zandha by name and passed messages to me to convey to the rest of humanity, ranging from how he created the world, the moral codes he expects us to live by, how he should be worshipped, to our purpose on earth, would you believe me? Would you accept my revelation as true? Would you accept MY personal experience as the answer to YOUR existence? If you won't believe me, then why should you believe Moses, Muhammed and the rest? If you would demand evidence from me, then why didn't you demand evidence for the extraordinary claims of those guys you listed?

And if you're going to accept every claim to divine revelation as legitimate, then how do you determine which one of them is true, since they're inconsistent and contradictory, and can't all be right?

Seun:

Most scientists believe that the big bang was the beginning of time. If so, then there was never a time when nothing existed. If so, the question of what happened before the big bang is a nonsense quesion, like asking for the square root of -1, or the letter that comes before A.


This is called abiogenesis. Scientists have been able to demonstrate that many of the complex chemicals that make up living things can arise spontaneously in the kind of environment that existed around the time that life started. But they don't know exactly how the first living thing came to be. It must have been an extremely rare and unlikely event, but it only had to happen once during a period of billions of years. People are rarely struck by lightning, but you wouldn't be surprised to learn that one person out of 1.2 billion Africans was struck by lightning once.


There was never a change from animals to man, because we are animals. We are apes. We are hairless, like elephants and chimps. We are highly intelligent, like killer whales and dolphins. We utterly dominate the other animals because our ancestors found themselves in a unique environment where those who possessed bigger brains were more likely to reproduce than those who were stronger and faster, but dumber.

errr
Abiogenesis is not proven yet I it's still speculation
Sooo in other words nothing started the big bang huh
*sigh*

ameri9ja:


Thanks for your very intelligent answer. Except how would you know the nature of the supreme being. He may very well be as presented by religion. Remember "God" as presented by religion came about through direct experience. It was not theoretical or made-up. I mean Moses, Muhammad, Paul had direct experience of the Supreme Being and they tried to convey him and his message as he presented himself to them.

I wouldn't argue that these people didn't have divine encounters, however, where is the EVIDENCE that any of these people ever really EXISTED? The Bible/Quoran came from a group of extremely religious people.....they weren't incapable of intelligent fiction just like any modern group trying to spread propaganda. Mormons, Buddhists, etc. See how moslems go around trying to coerce everyone into their ways? That's how desperate these people were to convince everyone that their deity is the SUPREME deity. So I'm not saying​ the "God" of the Bible is fake, just that these stories might simply be INTELLIGENT FICTION to support propaganda that he is SUPREME. Herbalist also speak to powerful deities don't they? What if herbalist became obsessed (as the Arabs are) and began crafting sweet fiction to promote their own deity? Lol. Think about this. Places that have been discovered through archeology don't actually confirm the Bible stories. If you wrote fiction right now you could include real places and events to further accentuate the authenticity of ur fiction. This is what I mean by INTELLIGENT FICTION. Show me evidence that these stories are real.

So my submission stands: Maybe the actual SUPREME being has never even revealed it/himself to anyone, and never will.

ameri9ja:


What do you think of Seun's answer above

Oh I think Seun hit the very famous catch-22 of atheist argument when he mentioned the big bang. That's the point where atheists and theists suddenly hold hands, enter the same boat, and sail away into the ignorant bliss of blind belief