Bandeco:

The level of ignorance and scientific illiteracy in this thread could be heart ranching. Seun this person is not worth your reply

Too late.

ameri9ja:


What do you think of Seun's answer above?

I think it agrees with that pic I posted earlier.

DeepEyes:
I wouldn't argue that these people didn't have divine encounters, however, where is the EVIDENCE that any of these people ever really EXISTED? The Bible/Quoran came from a group of extremely religious people.....they weren't incapable of intelligent fiction just like any modern group trying to spread propaganda. Mormons, Buddhists, etc. See how moslems go around trying to coerce everyone into their ways? That's how desperate these people were to convince everyone that their deity is the SUPREME deity. So I'm not saying​ the "God" of the Bible is fake, just that these stories might simply be INTELLIGENT FICTION to support propaganda that he is SUPREME. Herbalist also speak to powerful deities don't they? What if herbalist became obsessed (as the Arabs are) and began crafting sweet fiction to promote their own deity? Lol. Think about this. Places that have been discovered through archeology don't actually confirm the Bible stories. If you wrote fiction right now you could include real places and events to further accentuate the authenticity of ur fiction. This is what I mean by INTELLIGENT FICTION. Show me evidence that these stories are real.

So my submission stands: Maybe the actual SUPREME being has never even revealed it/himself to anyone, and never will.

Can we be honest with our selves for just one minute. You honestly think the history of the Jews is made up? Even other decendants of Abraham are still there today and see Ishmael as their father, and they are at constant conflict as fortold in the bible. Places mentioned in the bible are still there today. The dead sea scrolls are there. At a point you have to admit that something is likely mostly true otherwise how r u sure the sun is not revolving around the earth.

Tearless:
So, if I claimed to have personally encountered the creator of the universe, and that he claims to be Zandha by name and passed messages to me to convey to the rest of humanity, ranging from how he created the world, the moral codes he expects us to live by, how he should be worshipped, to our purpose on earth, would you believe me? Would you accept my revelation as true? Would you accept MY personal experience as the answer to YOUR existence? If you won't believe me, then why should you believe Moses, Muhammed and the rest? If you would demand evidence from me, then why didn't you demand evidence for the extraordinary claims of those guys you listed?

And if you're going to accept every claim to divine revelation as legitimate, then how do you determine which one of them is true, since they're inconsistent and contradictory, and can't all be right?

I may believe you, but it doesn't matter because it won't last. Unless there is something behind your claim, sooner or later it would fall apart. People have claimed and writen all sorts of things throughout history. Christ himself said the test was that his movement would last, unlike other "messiahs" springing up at the time

Look, can we just be honest with ourselves for just one minute. You honestly think the history of the Jews and God is made up? Even other decendants of Abraham are still there today and see Ishmael as their father, and they are at constant conflict as fortold in the bible. Places mentioned in the bible are still there today. The dead sea scrolls are there. At a point you have to admit that something is likely mostly true otherwise how r u sure the sun is not revolving around the earth.
All three major religions believe in an eternal supreme being, what do you mean which I'd brlieve.

ameri9ja:


I may believe you, but it doesn't matter because it won't last. Unless there is something behind your claim, sooner or later it would fall apart. People have claimed and writen all sorts of things throughout history. Christ himself said the test was that his movement would last, unlike other "messiahs" springing up at the time

Look, can we just be honest with ourselves for just one minute. You honestly think the history of the Jews and God is made up? Even other decendants of Abraham are still there today and see Ishmael as their father, and they are at constant conflict as fortold in the bible. Places mentioned in the bible are still there today. The dead sea scrolls are there. At a point you have to admit that something is likely mostly true otherwise how r u sure the sun is not revolving around the earth.
All three major religions believe in an eternal supreme being, what do you mean which I'd brlieve.

What?! How would you know whether it will fall apart or not? And what do you mean by "fall apart" anyways? So since Islam hasn't fallen apart, it MUST be true therefore being the only way to God? How can Islam and Christianity be simultaneously true? Has Mormonism fallen apart? Does that make it true as well? Hinduism has existed for millenia and yet still stands to this day - so, is it also true? Since you could never know before hand whether my claim would fall apart or not, why wouldn't you believe in it just like you believe other extraordinary nonsense without evidence? How do you determine which of these CONFLICTING claims to divine revelation is true? And what kind of ridiculous "logic" are you invoking to make the claim that the ones that eventually fall apart are ipso facto false? Does Christianity become FALSE if it falls apart in the coming century? Do you have no basic understanding that ideas survive based on a set of circumstances independent of their truth content?

Now let's be honest with ourselves. You honestly think that my Yoruba history and our God, Olodumare is made up? Descendants of Oduduwa are still around today and places mentioned in the Yoruba history books still exist. Talk about Ile-ife. The opele still exists. Ifa still exists. We still have the Odu's. And we believe in an eternal supreme being. Voila! My Yoruba religion MUST be true! I hope that's enough to show you how ridiculous that argument sounds.

---

Mind you, I don't entertain ridiculous questions like "How do I know that the sun doesn't revolve around the earth" in this day and age.

---

If you use exactly similar logic as invoked in the quoted post in your next reply, I won't be indulging you any further, 'cause I can't stomach such for long.

Zandha:
What?! How would you know whether it will fall apart or not? And what do you mean by "fall apart" anyways? So since Islam hasn't fallen apart, it MUST be true therefore being the only way to God? How can Islam and Christianity be simultaneously true? Has Mormonism fallen apart? Does that make it true as well? Hinduism has existed for millenia and yet still stands to this day - so, is it also true? Since you could never know before hand whether my claim would fall apart or not, why wouldn't you believe in it just like you believe other extraordinary nonsense without evidence? How do you determine which of these CONFLICTING claims to divine revelation is true? And what kind of ridiculous "logic" are you invoking to make the claim that the ones that eventually fall apart are ipso facto false? Does Christianity become FALSE if it falls apart in the coming century? Do you have no basic understanding that ideas survive based on a set of circumstances independent of their truth content?

Now let's be honest with ourselves. You honestly think that my Yoruba history and our God, Olodumare is made up? Descendants of Oduduwa are still around today and places mentioned in the Yoruba history books still exist. Talk about Ile-ife. The opele still exists. Ifa still exists. We still have the Odu's. And we believe in an eternal supreme being. Voila! My Yoruba religion MUST be true! I hope that's enough to show you how ridiculous that argument sounds.

---

Mind you, I don't entertain ridiculous questions like "How do I know that the sun doesn't revolve around the earth" in this day and age.

---

If you use exactly similar logic as invoked in the quoted post in your next reply, I won't be indulging you any further, 'cause I can't stomach such for long.

Thanks for your response once again.
Here are my words again:

"Unless there is something behind your claim, sooner or later it would fall apart."

No religion you mentioned was simply made up to prove a point including Yoruba gods. They all
had something behind them and in many cases they had real demonic powers behind them.

Look, once a again there is a spiritual world that your theories don't even attempt to acknowledge or explain. Religion acknowleges them and in many cases explains them.

ameri9ja:


Thanks for your response once again.
Here are my words again:

"Unless there is something behind your claim, sooner or later it would fall apart."

No religion you mentioned was simply made up to prove a point including Yoruba gods. They all
had something behind them and in many cases they had real demonic powers behind them.

Look, once a again there is a spiritual world that your theories don't even attempt to acknowledge or explain. Religion acknowleges them and in many cases explains them.

Are you saying ALL religions are true?

Zandha:
You shouldn't have attacked him in that manner. Some people reek of ridiculous level of ignorance, illogic, and irrationalism that indulging them would be problematic and a waste of time. You wouldn't even know where to start. It can be nauseating and irritating too, hence the reason one may choose to ignore. It has nothing to do with arrogance or being a "pathetic little person". Capiche? Get with the program!!!

Mr. logical and rational, point out 3 statements
of mine that reek of "ridiculous level of ignorance, illogic, and irrationalism." Why not make your own points if u have any. Otherwise leave the thread. Read other threads. It is not by force.

ameri9ja:


Mr. logical and rational, point out 3 statements
of mine that reek of "ridiculous level of ignorance, illogic, and irrationalism." Why not make your own points if u have any. Otherwise leave the thread. Read other threads. It is not by force.

Was it YOUR post the guy you quoted was responding to, or someone else's?

ameri9ja:


Can we be honest with our selves for just one minute. You honestly think the history of the Jews is made up? Even other decendants of Abraham are still there today and see Ishmael as their father, and they are at constant conflict as fortold in the bible. Places mentioned in the bible are still there today. The dead sea scrolls are there. At a point you have to admit that something is likely mostly true otherwise how r u sure the sun is not revolving around the earth.

I think you missed my point. The history of the Jews, their prophesies, their customs, their deity and their events may be very real. It does not mean their stories are accurate or even real. Was the world actually created in seven days? Even if it was, who was so privileged to be endowed with this IMPOSSIBLE knowledge of the creation process? Holy Spirit? Okay so who did holy Spirit confide in to write it for posterity? Methuselah's cousin, or Noah, or No-Author? See where I'm going with this...at some point u have to admit the fictional elements in there otherwise it becomes ridiculous. Where is the Garden of Eden? In heaven or on Earth? Don't answer, its on Earth. Since there are bouncer angels at the gates of Eden to prevent humans (Genesis 3:24) from sneaking back into the Garden to eat forbidden stuff. Lol. These are obviously old legends passed down from generation to generation, and then finally scripted as fact by one ignorant generation.

The fictional elements in the Bible is what questions it's absolute authenticity. This has been my point since the first post- the Hebrew Bible as a whole is a terrible alibi riddled with contradictions, embellishments, drama and farce. It looks more like propadanda than actual history. Hey let's tell stories of 9/11, but let's say those airplanes were.....Dragons sent by our God to flame down those American infidels who were busy fornicating in the twin towers instead of worshipping almighty God. Did God actually have anything to do with that incident? No! See what I mean? So the 9/11 may be real, but their anecdote is contrived.

However, to digress a bit, I must tell u that there's an inexplicable bliss that comes with knowing God- like a child Who finally knows who his father is. I do not know if this is a subconscious process from the preconceived conviction that one is doing the right thing, which, scientifically speaking, can give u a sense of bliss, but I must admit that this seemingly ignorant bliss feels a lot better than the turmoils of a never-ending quest for knowledge. And I can assure u that more people would believe in God if the Hebrews hadnt so ruined his integrity with their obviously propagandistic literature- Bible/Quoran. Really ruined the idea of God for intellectuals​. God always instructed them to do idiotic, thoughtless, inhumane, evil things...just like he instructed them to blow up the twin towers. Do you now see where the problem is?? Maybe stop referencing the Bible and just start talking to the Supreme being from within you. Seriously.

luvmijeje:


You accept a theory base on a theory that the universe is expanding.

You didn't accept a theory base on a fact. You didn't accept a theory base on a concrete fact. You didn't question it. You didn't bother carrying out a research to find out how true it is.

But you believe men who have not yet conquered their own planetary system talkless of our universe.

A Scientific theory is different from a hypothesis! A scientific theory is based on great amount of evidence. Before scientists can classify an explanation to a phenomenon as a theory it must have had large volumes of undeniable evidence.....so yes, there's undeniable evidence that the universe is expanding.

Happney65, have you seen this?

TLuzzie:
These are scientific, philosophical and metaphysical questions, NOT questions for atheists. These are questions for humanity's Intelligentsia, most of which we have NO definitive ANSWERS to YET. Even YOU asking them DON'T have the answers! If anyone claims he does, oh well, let him show us his answers with convincing EVIDENCE and PROOFS. We've had enough bullsh!t already, though. So I've got a truckload of invectives - never mind, they're just variations of the word, 'moron_' - to hit any bullsh!ter with, who comes to insult our intelligence any further with some ridiculous claptrap. SO, WHO HAS THE ANSWERS AND KNOWS MORE THAN EVERY MEMBER OF THE INTELLIGENTSIA COMBINED? I'm waiting for him/her to show up.

Just to reiterate, atheism is simply (weakly and implicitly) the lack of belief in the existence of deities, owing to lack of evidence or (strongly and explicitly) the belief that deities do not exist! So, why are you directing your question at atheists? It's not OUR problem. It's a problem for humanity's intellectuals. Savvy?!

And in conclusion, I want you to have this in mind:

The First Cause is not automatically equal to A conscious, perfect, omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent deity OUTSIDE SPACE AND TIME (the oxymoron: how can you be outside space and time and also be omnipresent at the same time? Incoherent bullsh!t. Transcendence and immanence are somewhat mutually exclusive).

The First Cause is simply equal to THE FIRST CAUSE!!! Which can be ANYTHING. What is it? I don't know, and neither do you.

Thanks for this exquisite write-up.
See, the thing is that you admit you don't know. Which is understandable because you are very limited - you even have no way of knowing if anything exists outside yourself.
Someone else emphatically say they know without a doubt based on things beyond your limited understanding. Then they support their claim with things beyond your limited purview: prophesies, miracles, prayers answered, lives dramatically transformed, etc.
See, what you should say is that you don't know and stop there. Don't say nobody else knows. You are way too limited to say that.

Zandha:
Are you saying ALL religions are true?

Obviously not. Your religion of Zandha for example, based on nothing, would not be true. Which is why it would likely quickly fizzle. But most enduring religions have some authentic supernatural basis. For example, if it is prophesied for thousands of years that a special person was coming and that person comes and tells you he is the one and that his words would be around for thousands of years, and he is actually proved right. I would be inclined to believe him more than someone who tells me he doesn't know but that maybe there was a big bang.

DeepEyes:


I think you missed my point. The history of the Jews, their prophesies, their customs, their deity and their events may be very real. It does not mean their stories are accurate or even real. Was the world actually created in seven days? Even if it was, who was so privileged to be endowed with this IMPOSSIBLE knowledge of the creation process? Holy Spirit? Okay so who did holy Spirit confide in to write it for posterity? Methuselah's cousin, or Noah, or No-Author? See where I'm going with this...at some point u have to admit the fictional elements in there otherwise it becomes ridiculous. Where is the Garden of Eden? In heaven or on Earth? Don't answer, its on Earth. Since there are bouncer angels at the gates of Eden to prevent humans (Genesis 3:24) from sneaking back into the Garden to eat forbidden stuff. Lol. These are obviously old legends passed down from generation to generation, and then finally scripted as fact by one ignorant generation.

The fictional elements in the Bible is what questions it's absolute authenticity. This has been my point since the first post- the Hebrew Bible as a whole is a terrible alibi riddled with contradictions, embellishments, drama and farce. It looks more like propadanda than actual history. Hey let's tell stories of 9/11, but let's say those airplanes were.....Dragons sent by our God to flame down those American infidels who were busy fornicating in the twin towers instead of worshipping almighty God. Did God actually have anything to do with that incident? No! See what I mean? So the 9/11 may be real, but their anecdote is contrived.

However, to digress a bit, I must tell u that there's an inexplicable bliss that comes with knowing God- like a child Who finally knows who his father is. I do not know if this is a subconscious process from the preconceived conviction that one is doing the right thing, which, scientifically speaking, can give u a sense of bliss, but I must admit that this seemingly ignorant bliss feels a lot better than the turmoils of a never-ending quest for knowledge. And I can assure u that more people would believe in God if the Hebrews hadnt so ruined his integrity with their obviously propagandistic literature- Bible/Quoran. Really ruined the idea of God for intellectuals​. God always instructed them to do idiotic, thoughtless, inhumane, evil things...just like he instructed them to blow up the twin towers. Do you now see where the problem is?? Maybe stop referencing the Bible and just start talking to the Supreme being from within you. Seriously.

Wao, what a write-up! You have been one of the best on the thread, always seeing both sides.

For starters I never said minutiae of the bible are all acurate. They don't have to be to answer the questions posed on this thread.

I will now cut and paste answers I gave elsewhere. (Ok, I'm lazy. I admit it )

See, the thing is that you admit you don't know. Which is understandable because you are very limited - you even have no way of knowing if anything exists outside yourself.
Someone else emphatically say they know without a doubt based on things beyond your limited understanding. Then they support their claim with things beyond your limited purview: prophesies, miracles, prayers answered, lives dramatically transformed, etc.
See, what you should say is that you don't know and stop there. Don't say nobody else knows. You are way too limited to say that.

Here is another:

For example, if it is prophesied for thousands of years that a special person was coming and that person comes and tells you he is the one and that his words would be around for thousands of years, and he is actually proved right. I would be inclined to believe him more than someone who tells me he doesn't know but that maybe there was a big bang.

Lalasticlala, saun, mynd44, who else, move this to front page so other people have their say. Maybe we'll all learn something

ameri9ja:
Atheists in the house, I truly want to know your answers to the following questions:
Without a supreme eternal being how are the following posssible:

1. How did we go from nothing existing to things existing?
2. How did things go from non-living to living?
3. How did things change from animals to man - in other words, how did man come about, being so completely different from other animals.

lalasticlala your 2 cents is needed
Seun, u r an atheist, no? Which other mods r atheists? Ishilove, mynd44 ?

I am not an atheist, but we have been existing right from the invention of time and space and we don't cease from existing, but we change state.

IMO, atheists are even more intelligent than theists, because in their search for GOD, they didn't settle down to accept dogs(gods of bad religions) as the CREATOR GOD. It is like when we say food does not exist because we don't know the nature of food yet, and in a bid to prove that food exists, you bring shit and ask us to eat it as food and believe it is food. Those who rejects such shit and keep looking out for a better presentation are better than those who settle down to eat those bitter shits which they are forced to accept as food.

This is the case with yahweh, Allah, Mazda and many other bad gods presented to us as God Almighty. The nature of God is far far different than the nature of the small small gods I mentioned above. So it is better for atheists to die as atheists and then know the truth about the real CREATOR in their afterlives than to accept dogs such as yahweh, allah etc as God Almighty and then be told that they have totally lived a life of error.

Profkenny1:


A Scientific theory is different from a hypothesis! A scientific theory is based on great amount of evidence. Before scientists can classify an explanation to a phenomenon as a theory it must have had large volumes of undeniable evidence.....so yes, there's undeniable evidence that the universe is expanding.

Please state the undeniable evidence for the big bang theory.

ameri9ja:
Well, first of all let me really thank you for your very intelligent and very well-reasoned answer
I am really humbled that the great founder of Nairaland actually responded to me. Me, who joined Nairaland literally two days ago. Shows what a truly great and truly democratic forum this is.

Thanks. We are great because our members are great!

Now to the question at hand, well, you have people over the centuries who claim to have encountered an entity who told them he was timeless and that he created the universe. You don't claim to have encountered anything. Your position is that they are all lying.

I am timeless and I created the universe. Now everyone who reads this thread can truthfully claim to have encountered an entity who told them he was timeless and he created the universe. Are you impressed? A multitude of unreliable testimonies do not add up to truth.

Well, clearly, there are many things science and logic cannot explain. Clearly there is a spiritual world, hence things like prophesies, sightings, demons and such. Your theory cannot even start to explain any of them.

I can explain those. They are ordinary events that are believed to be supernatural due to a poor understanding of how things actually work.

Religion, on the other hand, can, to the last detail.

Human imagination, when freed from the shackles of reality, can explain absolutely anything, but such explanations are likely to be wrong.

And not through theories or intuition but through direct contact with supernatural entities.

How do you determine that an entity you're in contact with is (1) not a product of your imagination, and (2) is a supernatural entity? Can you give me your best example of a person who "made contact with a supernatural entity" so we can investigate the truth of it right here?

You, on the other hand, don't claim to have encountered anything. The scientists themselves have said that over 90% of reality, the universe, is made up of dark matter. And they have admitted they don't know what that dark matter is or its nature. Spiritual world? Astonishing.

I fail to see the connection between dark matter and the 'spiritual world,. If you can prove this connection, you'll surely win a Nobel prize!

Profkenny1:


A Scientific theory is different from a hypothesis! A scientific theory is based on great amount of evidence. Before scientists can classify an explanation to a phenomenon as a theory it must have had large volumes of undeniable evidence.....so yes, there's undeniable evidence that the universe is expanding.

Can you please provide that evidence

Seun:

Thanks. We are great because our members are great!


I am timeless and I created the universe. Now everyone who reads this thread can truthfully claim to have encountered an entity who told them he was timeless and he created the universe. Are you impressed? A multitude of unreliable testimonies do not add up to truth.


I can explain those. They are ordinary events that are believed to be supernatural due to a poor understanding of how things actually work.


Human imagination, when freed from the shackles of reality, can explain absolutely anything, but such explanations are likely to be wrong.


How do you determine that an entity you're in contact with is (1) not a product of your imagination, and (2) is a supernatural entity? Can you give me your best example of a person who "made contact with a supernatural entity" so we can investigate the truth of it right here?


I fail to see the connection between dark matter and the 'spiritual world,. If you can prove this connection, you'll surely win a Nobel prize!

Once again thank you so much for your always very intelligent, well-thought-out response. It becomes obvious why you were able to found a great forum like Nairaland and able to sustain it.

Unfortunately my response has to be brief due to time constraints. I'll also cut and pastey earlier answers to save time.

Now, remember I acknowleged how intelligent u r. That right there is the problem. Atheists are usually highly intelligent people and because of that they rely too much on logic and science. The big blind spot they have is their failure to see that the human condition and much of the universe cannot be explained by science and logic. Prophecies, intuition, miracles, warning dreams, dark matter, etc. Infact scientists admit they don't have even the slightest idea what 96% of the physical universe is made of. They call it dark matter/energy. So they only can somewhat study 4% and that's what you hang your entire belief system about the universe on! Point is, u have to be outside this our system, this our "universe", to understand it, to get the full picture - it is called supetnatural.

As for what u wrote, if you claim u created the universe, and there are all sorts of supernatural things that back up that claim and many people over thousands of years testify to encounters with you, I'd be more inclined to believe you than someone who says maybe a big bang happened from nothing.

Here are some cut and paste from my earlier answers:

Sorry, I'd do that next time. No time.

Once gain thanks for taking the time. I can only imagine how much you have to read and deal with. Thanks for everything.

luvmijeje:


Please state the undeniable evidence for the big bang theory.

Look up:
1. Background Radiation.

2. Gravitational Waves.

Google is your friend.

OtemAtum:

I am not an atheist, but we have been existing right from the invention of time and space and we don't cease from existing, but we change state.

IMO, atheists are even more intelligent than theists, because in their search for GOD, they didn't settle down to accept dogs(gods of bad religions) as the CREATOR GOD. It is like when we say food does not exist because we don't know the nature of food yet, and in a bid to prove that food exists, you bring shit and ask us to eat it as food and believe it is food. Those who rejects such shit and keep looking out for a better presentation are better than those who settle down to eat those bitter shits which they are forced to accept as food.

This is the case with yahweh, Allah, Mazda and many other bad gods presented to us as God Almighty. The nature of God is far far different than the nature of the small small gods I mentioned above. So it is better for atheists to die as atheists and then know the truth about the real CREATOR in their afterlives than to accept dogs such as yahweh, allah etc as God Almighty and then be told that they have totally lived a life of error.

I like ur submission. It pretty much sums up the whole point. Tho I wud point out that u seem to be describing agnostics, not atheist. Atheist are simply the opposite of believers- unbelievers. They are like the south pole of the "belief" magnet, while theists are the North Pole of this same magnet. They are, sadly, just as ignorant as believers, since they also "blindly" believe there's no God WITHOUT evidence to unequivocally PROVE that God doesn't exist (cough **so how are u different from Christianity and Islam. U shud have ur own customised anti-religion Religion so that y'all can fight all day**). I do not personally respect this group, as I regard them with skepticism- in their intelligence they have also resorted to foolery.

Agnostics on the other hand, are the true seekers of truth. They neither agree nor disagree to the existence of a supreme being, only they won't settle for dumb science theories or bullsh!t doctrines unless u supply them with sensible evidence. In the absence of this evidence, the quest goes on, and no conclusions would be drawn. Period.


P.s: The bloody big bang theory should be morphed into a brand new religion too. Maybe then these science-hogging atheists wud realize they've also fallen prey to the brainwash system. Bloody stuupid baseless theory. Something science obviously resorted to for the lack of better alternatives! I mean, this is almighy science we're talking about; they have to come up with some explanation or they'll lose face! Then u hog it like it actually makes any sense, intelligent folks like you?? That theory is shiit, and u shud reject it for what it is while continuing ur seach for something that actually MAKES SENSE! Not gulp it down in servile surrender just cos it came from almighty science. I insist u aren't any better than the gullible religious folk.

@ameri9ja I think by now u already Know where I stand on this subject. There's a supreme being/source alright, but I doubt he's that melodramatic, insecure, inconsistent and misleading Hebrew Yahweh. If a BEING created this universe, I would expect him/her/it to be more......coordinated.

ameri9ja:
Atheists are usually highly intelligent people and because of that they rely too much on logic and science. The big blind spot they have is their failure to see that the human condition and much of the universe cannot be explained by science and logic. Prophecies, intuition, miracles, warning dreams,

This is your key mistake. We can explain prophecies, intuition, miracles, warning dreams, and most of the other "supernatural" phenomena.

As for what u wrote, if you claim u created the universe, and there are all sorts of supernatural things that back up that claim and many people over thousands of years testify to encounters with you, I'd be more inclined to believe you than someone who says maybe a big bang happened from nothing.

Actually, with your kind of thinking, I don't have to perform supernatural feats to convince you that I created the universe. I just have to make you believe that I can perform supernatural feats. I just have to be a competent but unethical magician, who pretends that his tricks are real. The testimony of the people who wrote scripture is unreliable because people used to be extremely gullible in the pre-scientific era. There is a story in the bible about Paul and his companion being worshipped as gods because they were bitten by a snake and didn't die. Imagine that!

DeepEyes:


I like ur submission. It pretty much sums up the whole . [ I wud point out that u seem to be describing agnostics, not atheist. Atheist are simply the opposite of believers- unbelievers. They are like the south pole of the "belief" magnet, while theists are the North Pole of this same magnet. They are, sadly, just as ignorant as believers, since they also "blindly" believe there's no God WITHOUT evidence to unequivocally PROVE that God doesn't exist

What if the name of what brings everything into existence is not God, but something else, will atheists not eventually be right in their own respect? When the first cause resulted into everything, was it called by the name God? I don't think atheists deny that something resulted into their being, but what I think is that they don't like the first cause to be called 'God' because that name 'God' has been so much abused that it/he/she would be better not to be in existence at all. I don't know what the stance of the atheists is about how everything came to being, but whatever they accept as the first cause is the creator to them, and what if they are right?

Irrelevant to do this since you wouldn't believe anyway but summarizing all 3 questions and giving the answer at one breath. The Universe means nothing to you, think of it as you living in dead universe which has space that eventually started as a result of time( the big bang). Now, living things in this same universe such as me you and other living things can NOT die because we don't really exist, we only change form.

Note- You only confused because of the following:

1 - you trying to make sense of a dead universe because you have consciousness which the universe lacks.

2- you living in a programmed matrix such as culture, religion, class struggle, race etc

3- you have been lied to all your life.

4- This my write up will not make sense to you.

luvmijeje:

Please state the undeniable evidence for the big bang theory.

ahless:

Can you please provide that evidence

Here you go guys! Sorry, I've been busy with writing a proposal due on Friday.

The earliest and most direct observational evidence of the validity of the theory are^a:

1. The expansion of the universe according to Hubble's law (as indicated by the redshifts of galaxies),
2. Discovery and measurement of the cosmic microwave background, and
3. The relative abundances of light elements produced by Big Bang nucleosynthesis

I am also attaching a pdf document. Please study it and also expand your knowledge by going through the references.

Africa must rise...Let's break the jinx of "If you want to hide anything from a black man hide it inside a book, he will NEVER find it!"

a Partridge, R. B. (2007). 3K: The Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation (illustrated ed.). Cambridge University Press

OtemAtum:


What if the name of what brings everything into existence is not God, but something else, will atheists not eventually be right in their own respect? When the first cause resulted into everything, was it called by the name God? I[b] don't think atheists deny that something resulted into their being, but what I think is that they don't like the first cause to be called 'God' because that name 'God' has been so much abused that it/he/she would be better not to be in existence at all[/b]. I don't know what the stance of the atheists is about how everything came to being, but whatever they accept as the first cause is the creator to them, and what if they are right?

If this were the atheist argument, wouldn't it be respectable? Lol. Unfortunately, this is more like the agnostic argument. Atheists simply deny the existence of any deity or supreme being (Yahweh, God, Tomato, whatever) and rather go with scientific explanations (which is where the big bang theory usually comes in). THEIR ARGUMENT IS MORE LIKE LIVING​ IN BLATANT DENIAL cos sometimes they get very illogical just to defend it. Like, u snap ur fingers and someone gets a siezure and they say "oh that must have been a coincidence" Then u snap ur fingers again and another person gets a siezure and they still go with coincidence just because they don't want to believe/concede that u have supernatural abilities. See where their argument becomes irritating? The agnostic thinks he's on the same page with the atheist until he suddenly realises that the atheist is actually just hell-bent on denying God, while he just wants to know the truth- very different ambitions!


OtemAtum I see u also have questions in ur mind. U know, I've always said the best way to understand something deeper is to teach it. The little time I've spent writing replies on this thread has opened my mind to a new dimension of thought contrary to what I previous believed. Let me tell u something I just figured out maybe it wud help u understand better. Just take ur time to read:


Actually, we humans overthink the subject of God. We search everywhere except one place- within. We think like mature intelligent beings instead​ of going back to the basics of life in order to find answers about the basis of life. The best answers would be found studying babies and nature and pure creation, not by thinking through our already-biased minds. Afterall, u can tell a bit about an author's personality by reading his/her books, and about an inventor's character by observing his/her inventions, not by THINKING! There's​ a reason why of all the intelligent people who have walked this Earth, no one has ever been able to solve the puzzle. Its because the maker of the puzzle is a cheif puzzler who explicitly doesn't want us (his creation) to figure him out. Wait, don't overthink this too. Lemme explain:


I am a scientist who created a sentient (capable of thinking, planning and creating) robot. Would I want this smart robot to one day figure me out? Would I not try to be as mysterious as possible to prevent a possible backfire? Even if my robot are quite inferior to me, I still have to take precautions. Is this not the same thing we humans are afraid of about creating intelligent Robots? Lol.


Now, what would I do? I would deliberately limit this robot's life span so that it never lives long enough to be WISE enough to figure me out. I would plant misdirections everywhere so that when it seeks knowledge of me it would always get frustrated and give up on the subject. I would create intermittent self-initiating catastrophe to keep my smart robot busy. I would also create several other distractions in it's world (love, purpose, destiny etc) all to keep it occupied over it's lifespan. And no matter how personal I get with my robot, I'd never fully reveal myself to it, for it can use the knowledge of me against me!


This has been our mistake as seekers. We shud start thinking like creators in order to understand creation. The Bible is a great book of sacred knowledge, but it is also a very giant puzzle filled with riddles, misdirections and hidden Truths. Good luck to any man who always reads the Bible LITERALLY. Lol. There's a reason why Jesus always used parables- he's kinda like the creator, and they are really fond of riddles and misdirections he and his dad...or boss (Lol. yes I'm being facetious). Now let me shock you- there is NO perfection in the whole universe. This is one of the Bible tricks, to get mankind searching for a perfect God instead of a supernatural MAN-LIKE being. If u can find my previous replies I gave examples of how the Bible mixes real events with fiction for the sake of their personal agenda- which is what confuses us about God. Truth is, God is like man with SUPER powers. He has vulnerabilities, just like any other scientist genius.


When we created the computer, it developed bugs. When God created the universe, it developed bugs. Look around you, this world has errors (bugs) in it, which mean the inventor, like any other inventor, isn't perfect! At first the creator tried to debug his system, but it had been corrupted beyond redemption that the only way wud be to destroy and rebuild. But building the universe may not have been an easy task for the creator, and no, he isn't as "omnipotent" as the Bible paints. He's just like..say.. heaven Steve Jobs. He's a boss and a genuis and all, but not omnipotent parse. Hes intelligent beyond measure, but not omniscient. So you can actually advice God on what to do next or even negotiate with the creator (Moses did the first, Abraham did the second). But chances are, his ideas wud still be better cos he's super smart- I mean, u designed the computer, he designed the freaking universe in which u exist so *coughs. But he's NOT omniscient. So is it possible that God wud regret something? Absolutely!


Am I saying we can actually challenge God? Yes!! But, you know, you have to have like a very solid death wish to launch such a campaign. Lol.


We humans are pathetic. We are the greatest hypocrites of the Galaxy. We have a problem thinking outside the box once our selfish interest is involved. Why do we think it's okay to eat chickens and cows? Even if ur a vegan, why do we think it's okay to eat plants?...because, Duhh! They're food! Right. Okay. So we can eat stuff we can't​ even create, but God DOESN'T HAVE THE RIGHT TO EAT WHAT HE CREATED An ordinary KING or PRESIDENT​ can command the execution of a whole nation of fellow humans which he cannot even create, But HOW DARE GOD COMMAND EXECUTIONS OF ROBOTS HE CREATED Why do we think this way? Its because we overthink God. We expect perfection from God, but if there are bugs in the system God created then it means he ISN'T perfect, hence we can't just demand/expect perfection from him the same way we can't expect perfection from the makers of iPhones or cars or you name it!


Tell u what, if I created smart robots who began doing stuff on their own sometimes even against me or against my will, chances are I'd love some, hate some, kill some, defend some, punish some for others, be indifferent to some, use some as scapegoats to teach lessons to the ones I like, use some as experiment just for fun, because I freaking created them! I have every damned right to do whatsoever I Please! But if they rebelled and waged war against me, I won't be surprised either since I know I created self-sufficient beings who have my kind of crazy creative swag.


So, the secret is this, stop seeking a perfect flawless creator that is sooo Superior in swag and is omnibullsh!t bla bla bla as the Bible misleads, and start accepting in ur heart that the one who made us is in many ways JUST LIKE US- an imperfect genius-thinker being that, if u think about it, would make a very good friend!

DeepEyes:

If this were the atheist argument, wouldn't it be respectable? Lol. Unfortunately, this is more like the agnostic argument. Atheists simply deny the existence of any deity or supreme being (Yahweh, God, Tomato, whatever) and rather go with scientific explanations (which is where the big bang theory usually comes in).

Must a deity be the creator of the universe? If the atheists believe the big bang, is the BIG BANG not equivalent to a creator? And what if they are right?

.:

OtemAtum I see u also have questions in ur mind. U know, I've always said the best way to understand something deeper is to teach it. The little time I've spent writing replies on this thread has opened my mind to a new dimension of thought contrary to what I previous believed. Let me tell u something I just figured out maybe it wud help u understand better. Just take ur time to read:[/b]

Whatever questions I av in my minds are answered when I go deep into meditations. I am a conscious part of God and God is me in manifestation.

.:

Actually, we humans overthink the subject of God. We search everywhere except one place- within. We think like mature intelligent beings instead​ of going back to the basics of life in order to find answers about the basis of life. The best answers would be found studying babies and nature and pure creation, not by thinking through our already-biased minds. Afterall, u can tell a bit about an author's personality by reading his/her books, and about an inventor's character by observing his/her inventions, not by THINKING! There's​ a reason why of all the intelligent people who have walked this Earth, no one has ever been able to solve the puzzle. Its because the maker of the puzzle is a cheif puzzler who explicitly doesn't want us (his creation) to figure him out. Wait, don't overthink this too. Lemme explain:


I am a scientist who created a sentient (capable of thinking, planning and creating) robot. Would I want this smart robot to one day figure me out? Would I not try to be as mysterious as possible to prevent a possible backfire? Even if my robot are quite inferior to me, I still have to take precautions. Is this not the same thing we humans are afraid of about creating intelligent Robots? Lol.


Now, what would I do? I would deliberately limit this robot's life span so that it never lives long enough to be WISE enough to figure me out. I would plant misdirections everywhere so that when it seeks knowledge of me it would always get frustrated and give up on the subject. I would create intermittent self-initiating catastrophe to keep my smart robot busy. I would also create several other distractions in it's world (love, purpose, destiny etc) all to keep it occupied over it's lifespan. And no matter how personal I get with my robot, I'd never fully reveal myself to it, for it can use the knowledge of me against me!

Good point here. That's why I always emphasize that not knowing God isn't a crime, because if God wants us to know his entirety, he/she/it would even appear to us and then it is all done. But after knowing all, life would get boring.

.:

When we created the computer, it developed bugs. When God created the universe, it developed bugs. Look around you, this world has errors (bugs) in it, which mean the inventor, like any other inventor, isn't perfect! At first the creator tried to debug his system, but it had been corrupted beyond redemption that the only way wud be to destroy and rebuild.

The bugs or errors in the universe are intentionally made by God himself. There is no regret, it's all for the fun of it. Viruses and antiviruses are made by the same kind of people, the programmers. I don't agree that God is not omnipresent, because everything is God and there is nowhere without something. Therefore God is everywhere. Even if a vacuum exist, a vacuum is something, so it is somewhere. And so God is everywhere.

.:
So, the secret is this, stop seeking a perfect flawless creator that is sooo Superior in swag and is omnibullsh!t bla bla bla as the Bible misleads, and start accepting in ur heart that the one who made us is in many ways JUST LIKE US- an imperfect genius-thinker being that, if u think about it, would make a very good friend!

I don't think this applies to me, but it should be directed to the religious people. Reason being that I don't seek God outside of nature and myself. God is inside of me, so I don't go out there searching for God. Even after death, we shall not still see a separate God different from the one living inside everyone. So again, I can reframe the claim of atheists this way, THERE IS NO GOD WHICH IS SEPARATE FROM HUMANS AND EVERYTHING. GOD IS NOT A DEITY, GOD IS RATHER THE CREATOR OF DEITIES. THEREFORE THE gods OF RELIGION ARE NOT FIT ENOUGH TO BE CALLED THE CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE(GOD).

DeepEyes:


I think you missed my point. The history of the Jews, their prophesies, their customs, their deity and their events may be very real. It does not mean their stories are accurate or even real. Was the world actually created in seven days? Even if it was, who was so privileged to be endowed with this IMPOSSIBLE knowledge of the creation process? Holy Spirit? Okay so who did holy Spirit confide in to write it for posterity? Methuselah's cousin, or Noah, or No-Author? See where I'm going with this...at some point u have to admit the fictional elements in there otherwise it becomes ridiculous. Where is the Garden of Eden? In heaven or on Earth? Don't answer, its on Earth. Since there are bouncer angels at the gates of Eden to prevent humans (Genesis 3:24) from sneaking back into the Garden to eat forbidden stuff. Lol. These are obviously old legends passed down from generation to generation, and then finally scripted as fact by one ignorant generation.

The fictional elements in the Bible is what questions it's absolute authenticity. This has been my point since the first post- the Hebrew Bible as a whole is a terrible alibi riddled with contradictions, embellishments, drama and farce. It looks more like propadanda than actual history. Hey let's tell stories of 9/11, but let's say those airplanes were.....Dragons sent by our God to flame down those American infidels who were busy fornicating in the twin towers instead of worshipping almighty God. Did God actually have anything to do with that incident? No! See what I mean? So the 9/11 may be real, but their anecdote is contrived.

However, to digress a bit, I must tell u that there's an inexplicable bliss that comes with knowing God- like a child Who finally knows who his father is. I do not know if this is a subconscious process from the preconceived conviction that one is doing the right thing, which, scientifically speaking, can give u a sense of bliss, but I must admit that this seemingly ignorant bliss feels a lot better than the turmoils of a never-ending quest for knowledge. And I can assure u that more people would believe in God if the Hebrews hadnt so ruined his integrity with their obviously propagandistic literature- Bible/Quoran. Really ruined the idea of God for intellectuals​. God always instructed them to do idiotic, thoughtless, inhumane, evil things...just like he instructed them to blow up the twin towers. Do you now see where the problem is?? Maybe stop referencing the Bible and just start talking to the Supreme being from within you. Seriously.

now your post got me.how do we begin to talk to the supreme being within us apart from meditating