ameri9ja:
The question is wether Mohamed encountered a supernatural being. I don't know how u can possibly argue he didn't if you know anything about his history and how he was deeply traumatized and changed by the experience.

Do you believe that the Prophet encountered a supernatural being? If so, what supernatural being do you believe he encountered?

It is easy to tell what parts of the Koran were inspired. They came complete and perfect, you can't add or subtract a word, which is why it can't be translated without losing something.

Can you list the verses of the Koran that you consider to be inspired? And by inspired, do you mean that they were actually dictated by God?

I said most enduring religions were initiated by an encounter with the supernatural.

How do you know this? We must investigate the major religions one by one to determine if your bold claim is true. Starting with Islam.

DeepEyes:


Oh that's simple: I did say that Atheists (most, not all) hate being put in tight corners during arguments; they tend to get unnecessarily antagonistic. U happened to do just that.

And I'd love to continue this banter with u but u already gave me the wrong signals as stated above. Means u won't be very good with arguments. Sorry

and this is your proof.. SMH.

Concluding that I am an atheist because I opposed your reasoning. Another proof of your fallacious thinking.

Bros no dey fall your hand like this..

Seun:

Do you believe that the Prophet encountered a supernatural being? If so, what supernatural being do you believe he encountered?


Can you list the verses of the Koran that you consider to be inspired? And by inspired, do you mean that they were actually dictated by God?


How do you know this? We must investigate the major religions one by one to determine if your bold claim is true. Starting with Islam.

At a point we really need to stop being too clever by half and admit that certain things are very likely mostly true (due to overwhelming indirect and circumstantial evidence) otherwise we will never get anywhere.

Here is a small fraction of a list of things I could dispute and you'd have no way of proving them to me (I'd use the argument of conspiracy/brainwashing/manufactured evidence/made-up books and experiments/doctored photographs and documents, etc to dispute whatever u say)
1) There is no such person as Seun. He is a composite of different people. (Even if a Seun is brought to me, I'll still say he was "created" by the conspirators as a cover-up)
2) the sun revolves around the Earth. I experience that everyday.
3) historical events never happened, they were made up. Were u there?!
4)There is no such thing as dark matter, nor is there anti-matter. Ridiculous notions.
5) there are no such things as photons, electrons, quarks. Show them to me.
6) Stars are small specs of lights in the sky, smaller than the moon.
7) The sun is smaller than the earth, much smaller.
black holes? don't make me laugh.
You get the drift.

Same way u accept certain things u were told without splitting hairs, let's also accept the following and stop being ridiculous
(SO NO MORE ARGUMENTS OVER ANY OF THESE):

1) A spirit/supernatural world exists though it is undetectable by scientific equipment or logic.
2) The story of the Jews and God in the Bible is essentially true though there are possible myths and fables mixed in but these are easily discernable.
3) the story of Jesus Christ as presented in the bible is essentially true.
4) A pious, mild-mannered, man called Muhammad had a powerful supernatural encounter that deeply traumatized him and changed him, and defined his life's mission.
5) Many African and world religions are backed by supernatural forces - real demonic powers.

Any more questioning of any of these, then u have to take me to a point where I can see the earth actually going around the sun for me to believe it is not the other way around.

@op,

Concerning question number one:......................................................There is no such thing as "nothing", so your first question is malformed(It is going through a process known as "CATASTROPHIC KWASHIOKORFICATION", which means that it belongs in the dustbin of history)!!!

ScepticalPyrrho:
You really are yet to make a point.

Religion is a vague word. Tell us what verifiable answers your religion have provided so far?

Tell us what new discoveries you've made through all your time spent being religious.

If you can just step out of your blinders-on, narrow-minded, defense of atheism for a minute and really LOOK around you.

This Thread is not about me or retail religion.

Look around you. THINK. Doesn't this our reality seem contrived to you? Doesn't it seem to you like a lot was intentionally hidden from us? Where do prophesies come from? Where do dreams come from? How come we can't physically access the spirit world or even dark matter? How come, suspiciously, everything only happens in one place (the brain), so that all anyone has to do is control our brains and they control our reality. And then, conveniently, we all must sleep so that our brains are left open to be worked on. Who chooses what dreams to put there? All these seem to you to all be from chance? I'm sure someone outside this reality is laughing at us and wondering how anyone can't easily see that this our world, this our reality, is a set-up.

Seun:

Claims of the Prophet's illiteracy may have been grossly exaggerated, but even if they are true, being illiterate only means that you cannot read or write. An illiterate can be creative and have a good memory.

The Prophet composed the verses over a period of many many years, memorized them, and taught them to his friends, who also memorized them. This is exactly how most societies passed on their traditions and myths from generation to generation before writing became a thing. There is nothing remarkable or supernatural about this.

His claim to have met a supernatural entity are easily explained as untruths. Many of his revelations are obviously self-serving such as the one permitting only himself to take more than 4 wives when he wished to do so, and those promising rich rewards to young men who died in battle when he was in need of fighters.

If you believe the Prophet's revelations came from a supreme supernatural entity who created the universe, then you should be a Muslim. Why are you not a Muslim?

@ameri9ja, seun's post here pretty much does justice to ur "proofs"

I was honestly hoping you would say something a bit "unfamiliar" but to use Biblical/Quoran stories and CLAIMS as proof doesn't really help ur argument with people who are in doubt of the very RELEVANCE of those books. Can't we have some proof thats not based on these same old boring proofs? Of all the people who believe in Bible God, can't anybody hear/see/know/experience something new to the world besides what the ancient believers had? Great men/women of God today claim to communicate with God frequently, yet they haven't thought to clarify critical biblical controversies with him, so that they may explain these to the world through relatable DIVINE knowledge? No! They are all just there grappling with the same Old Arabic controversial teachings and trying to explain these away with ordinary wits. This is fishy!


Also, it seems a lot of people (including you) confuse spirituality with religion- there's a difference. Miracles, prophesies etc are all elements of spirituality, not necessarily religion. Think Abt it: psychics, herbalists, prophets, seers, and the likes have always existed haven't they? In biblical times and even today. Some of these people are capable of miracles and prophesies aren't they? So u see that its not really about Bible God or religion- just spirituality, something available to mankind with or without their belief in God. This is why bad people can pray and still get answers, and why Voodoo people can do voodoo. So religion using it's own form of spirituality (praying, miracles etc) to cash in as "proof" of the scriptural God is void and pathetic!


Guess what? In the middle ages Europe, people honestly believed that women flew on brooms! They called them witches and murdered any woman suspected of this practice. Whether these allegations were true back then, WE CAN'T BE SURE NOW. But as time went by, civilization quenched these claims and ladies stopped getting murdered. This is same with religion. Only difference is that the world leaders NEED religion to control the world, hence their reinforcement of religious beliefs! Otherwise they wud have abolished this too and you won't be believing in flying​ women or ancient doctrines today. Oh and before you say Jesus prophesied that his word would remain in future, lemme inform u that Mohammed also predicted future supremacy, yet both are rival parties apparently from the SAME GOD! What is he, a confusionist?? Don't be fooled; religion is only alive today because it was FORCEFULLY reinforced by those who wanted POWER over others. It is a political tool, and a cash cow too! Otherwise religion wud be long dead and forgotten.


Like I've stated earlier, we either agree that the world was created by a supernatural MAN-LIKE being named YAHWEH, who was just as crazy as any science genius (according to what the holy books clearly show us), or we accept religion as it is; an ancient belief that has long expired! Either way, modern religious doctrines wud still be wrong and misleading, as they SHY AWAY from either facts! However, what we should try to understand better is SPIRITUALITY! Meditation, prayers, fasting, counting beads, voodoo, rituals, prophesies, miracles, are all FORMS OF SPIRITUALITY- and these should be our focus if we are to figure out anything anytime soon- not droning after ancient claims by a certain group of people practicing and forcefully spreading THEIR OWN KIND of spirituality- religion! Why not just stick to their doctrines 100% by not doing anything on SABBATH (Saturday) bla bla and all that crazy shiit in the Holy Books that modern religion CONVENIENTLY avoids now ehn? Doesnt this make religious practitioners hypocritical?

ameri9ja:

If you can just step out of your blinders-on, narrow-minded, defense of atheism for a minute and really LOOK around you.

This Thread is not about me or retail religion.

Look around you. THINK. Doesn't this our reality seem contrived to you? Doesn't it seem to you like a lot was intentionally hidden from us? Where do prophesies come from? Where do dreams come from? How come we can't physically access the spirit world or even dark matter? How come, suspiciously, everything only happens in one place (the brain), so that all anyone has to do is control our brains and they control our reality. And then, conveniently, we all must sleep so that our brains are left open to be worked on. Who chooses what dreams to put there? All these seem to you to all be from chance? I'm sure someone outside this reality is laughing at us and wondering how anyone can't easily see that this our world, this our reality, is a set-up.

Relax man. Now I see your problem.

Pick up any introductory book on philosophy and read. The universe has always been a case to unravel. Philosophy has always been a quest to get answers - and not depending on myths, folklores, stories or popular belief for answers; this quest marked the birth of science(biology, astronomy, mathematics, cosmology, cosmogony etc). See how far science has brought us... you can read the history of science for yourself. Free thinkers have engaged in unravelling this reality - many religious beliefs have been disproven. Yes, there was a time men thought the world was flat, now we know better.

Relax, it's a matter of time we'll know our universe better - it can only get better.

Perhaps, we should read (learn more) before we think.

ScepticalPyrrho:
Relax man. Now I see your problem.

Pick up any introductory book on philosophy and read. The universe has always been a case to unravel. Philosophy has always been a quest to get answers - and not depending on myths, folklores, stories or popular belief for answers; this quest marked the birth of science(biology, astronomy, mathematics, cosmology, cosmogony etc). See how far science has brought us... you can read the history of science for yourself. Free thinkers have engaged in unravelling this reality - many religious beliefs have been disproven. Yes, there was a time men thought the world was flat, now we know better.

Relax, it's a matter of time we'll know our universe better - it can only get better.

Perhaps, we should read (learn more) before we think.

All I ask is that you do a bit of ORIGINAL thinking. Forget everything you've been thought or read. Look around you and at yourself and just THINK. It is very hard, but try. Even scientific discoveries, I won't be suprised if these are not infos released from time to time and scientists carefully manipulated into thinking they discovered them. I think, not only is this our reality set up, whoever set it up is closely monitoring everything, and also has a good sense of humor! (If someone can foretell 500 years ago what is happening today, it means whoever gave him that info knows the details of all the scientific discoveries that would happen during that time period. How are they discoveries if someone already knew them?)

ameri9ja:


All I ask is that you do a bit of ORIGINAL thinking. Forget everything you've been thought or read. Look around you and at yourself and just THINK. It is very hard, but try. Even scientific discoveries, I won't be suprised if these are not infos released from time to time and scientists carefully manipulated into thinking they discovered them. I think, not only is this our reality set up, whoever set it up is closely monitoring everything, and also has a good sense of humor! (If someone can foretell 500 years ago what is happening today, it means whoever gave him that info knows the details of all the scientific discoveries that would happen during that time period. How are they discoveries if someone already knew them?)

If it is unverifiable, it isn't science. You can contest any scientific discovery claims by testing them out.

If I tell you how long I've been engaged in deep thoughts about the origin and nature of the universe, you won't believe it. But my thoughts have never been more guided than when I gained exposure to philosophical propositions on the subject matter.

Try it out, you'll thank me later.

What are those prophesies or foretells that baffles so much? Please share them.

Ameri9ja, could you please answer the questions below?

Seun:
Do you believe that the Muslim Prophet encountered a supernatural being? If so, what supernatural being do you believe he encountered?

Can you list the verses of the Qur'an that you consider to be inspired? By inspired, do you mean that they were actually dictated by God?

Let's settle this issue before moving on to other topics. Don't forget to answer the question about why you are not a Muslim as well. Cheers.

Seun:
Ameri9ja, could you please answer the questions below?

Do you believe that the Muslim Prophet encountered a supernatural being? If so, what supernatural being do you believe he encountered?

Can you list the verses of the Qur'an that you consider to be inspired? By inspired, do you mean that they were actually dictated by God?
Let's settle this issue before moving on to other topics. Don't forget to answer the question about why you are not a Muslim as well. Cheers.

BTW, Chief Seun, I wanted to ask u a favor. How can I get that Nairaland smiley face emoji. I love it. I want to be able to send it with my personal texts.

Now to your questions, first of all this thread is not about me or retail religion, but I'll go ahead and answer your questions anyway:

1) Like I said in my previous post, at a point you have to accept that something is likely true based on overwhelming indirect and circumstantial evidence, otherwise u can dispute just about anything as made-up, conspiracy, doctored science, etc.
This is a perfect example. Here you are, a very smart guy, but u let your commitment to the religion of atheism induce you to become very biased indeed as to what u believe and what u question.
You believe, for example, in the existence of dark matter, yet no such thing has ever been detected
by any instrument. Yet you find it hard to believe
a man, a wealthy, honest, but illiterate family man, when he says he had a supernatural encounter that induced him to abandon everything and risk his life and ridicule from his community in other to spread the message. All around him could see how deeply traumatised he was by the experience. Your position is that he made it all up. What would be his motive? You see how ridiculous that is?

2) The name of the being doesn't matter. What matters is that he did encounter a supernatural being. But he did believe it was Angel Gabriel.

3) The words given by the entity were said by all who heard them to be so super-humanly beautiful and perfect that they were a joy to memorize and they all memorized them. What other proof do u need? But there were other words besides these - words from Muhammed. It would be obvious to any impartial observer that Muhammad later added his own words that favored whatever his goals were at the moment. But our topic here is wether he had a supernatural encounter or not.

4) Why am I then not a muslim? With all due respect that's a ridiculous question. I believe lots of people have had supernatural encounters. That doesn't mean the supernatural being or their message suits me or that I necessarily think they are benevolent.

Are u following my discussion with ScepticalPyrrho ? I'd replying his post soon

ScepticalPyrrho:
If it is unverifiable, it isn't science. You can contest any scientific discovery claims by testing them out.

If I tell you how long I've been engaged in deep thoughts about the origin and nature of the universe, you won't believe it. But my thoughts have never been more guided than when I gained exposure to philosophical propositions on the subject matter.

Try it out, you'll thank me later.

What are those prophesies or foretells that baffles so much? Please share them.

Will reply fully later. Meanwhile how did science verify that this universe is real? How did they verify that they are not being manipulated? That they are not "discovering" things intentionally put there for them to "discover". How did they verify the true nature of reality?

I'm sure Albert Einstein thought about these things longer than you or me.
Well, what do you think of these quotations from one of the most brilliant and insightful scientists of all time,

ALBERT EINSTEIN :

"There is harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognise, yet there are people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they quote me to support such views."

“Behind all the discernible concatenations, there remains something subtle, intangible and inexplicable. Veneration for this force is my religion. To that extent, I am in point of fact, religious.”

“Every scientist becomes convinced that the laws of nature manifest the existence of a spirit vastly superior to that of men.”

“Everyone who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the universe – a spirit vastly superior to that of man."

“The divine reveals itself in the physical world"

“My God created laws… His universe is not ruled by wishful thinking but by immutable laws.”

“I want to know how God created this world. I want to know his thoughts.”

“What I am really interested in knowing is whether God could have created the world in a different way.”

“This firm belief in a superior mind that reveals itself in the world of experience, represents my conception of God.”

“My religiosity consists of a humble admiration of the infinitely superior spirit, …That superior reasoning power forms my idea of God.”

“I want to know how God created this world.

"Then there are the fanatical atheists whose intolerance is of the same kind as the intolerance of the religious fanatics and comes from the same source.”

“I am not an atheist, and I don’t think I can call myself a pantheist.”

Ameri9ja, is it accurate to say that you believe that, if a man claims to have had a supernatural encounter, and he composes a work of literature which is said to be very beautiful and easy to memorize, then he must have actually encountered a supernatural being, and could not possibly be mistaken, lying, or both? If not, can you clarify your position?

You seem to not believe that the supernatural entity that you believe that the Prophet encountered was actually who the Prophet said the entity said it was - Angel Gabriel. This means that either the being lied to the Prophet about its identity, or the Prophet lied about who it said it was. Which of the two possibilities is your position?

How do you reconcile your view of the Prophet as a honest man with your belief that he added self-serving and false revelations to the beautiful literature allegedly dictated to him by a supernatural being as the words of the creator of the universe? Would a honest man tell people that his own self-serving words are the words of the creator of the universe?

Is it accurate to say that the reason you are not a Muslim is because the message of the Prophet doesn't suit you? If you believe that the message is true, does it really matter whether it suits you or not? If you don't believe that the message is true, how can you be so sure that it came from a supernatural entity rather than the mind of a clever man who happened to be illiterate at a time when only a few lucky people were literate?

Also, you forgot to point out the portions of the Arabic scriptures that you consider to have been inspired so we can examine the claim of supernatural inspiration. Cheers.

I like this thread

Seun:
Ameri9ja, is it accurate to say that you believe that, if a man claims to have had a supernatural encounter, and he composes a work of literature which is said to be very beautiful and easy to memorize, then he must have actually encountered a supernatural being, and could not possibly be mistaken, lying, or both? If not, can you clarify your position?

You seem to not believe that the supernatural entity that you believe that the Prophet encountered was actually who the Prophet said the entity said it was - Angel Gabriel. This means that either the being lied to the Prophet about its identity, or the Prophet lied about who it said it was. Which of the two possibilities is your position?

How do you reconcile your view of the Prophet as a honest man with your belief that he added self-serving and false revelations to the beautiful literature allegedly dictated to him by a supernatural being as the words of the creator of the universe? Would a honest man tell people that his own self-serving words are the words of the creator of the universe?

Is it accurate to say that the reason you are not a Muslim is because the message of the Prophet doesn't suit you? If you believe that the message is true, does it really matter whether it suits you or not? If you don't believe that the message is true, how can you be so sure that it came from a supernatural entity rather than the mind of a clever man who happened to be illiterate at a time when only a few lucky people were literate?

Also, you forgot to point out the portions of the Arabic scriptures that you consider to have been inspired so we can examine the claim of supernatural inspiration. Cheers.

My chief, you never did tell me how I can get that nairaland smiley.
As for our discussion, I'll reply later - gotta go to work (even on Saturday!). But remember, the crux of the matter is your assertion that there is no supernatural - you say everything is explainable by science and logic.
Well, can you please watch this video on YouTube, titled:
"The most powerful magicians with demonic spirits and jinns! Part 2"

Then tell me if u still believe there is no supernatural

Syphax:

Good morning sir, please this thread is Frontpage worthy
https://www.nairaland.com/3908058/exams-9ja

Chief Seun will never dare put this on FP. It too much debunks his religion. It is like asking a fervent Christian to put a well-made case against Christianity on FP.

These quotes from EINSTEIN say it all:

"Then there are the fanatical atheists whose intolerance is of the same kind as the intolerance of the religious fanatics and comes from the same source.”

"There is harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognise, yet there are people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they quote me to support such views."

ameri9ja:


Will reply fully later.

Waiting

Meanwhile how did science verify that this universe is real? How did they verify that they are not being manipulated? That they are not "discovering" things intentionally put there for them to "discover". How did they verify the true nature of reality?

In every field of study, the scientific method of research is employed for educational purposes.
In philosophy, indubitable facts are used as the basis for determining the truth about a matter. However, religious posits are the only propositions which have failed the test of verification.

One truth no man can dispute is the existence of our thinking-being. Rene Descartes used this but failed to establish the necessary connection to a divine being.

The true nature of reality is not yet known. But, reality as it appears(verifiably) to us is not contested. To this extent we can say we know our reality.

Whether or not it is more than observable, is not submittable as science. What do I mean by "science"? Simply, it means knowledge! So science is knowledge and knowledge is science.

Religious posits falls short of the description as knowledge(science) , so also are speculations. Your claim that we might be deceived isn't knowledge, but a speculation. And speculations aren't verifiable.

My own speculation is that an intelligent being, knowable or observable, doesn't exist. I can't argue against your own assumption, you can't argue against mine. That is where I have problems with religionists. They would accept, or reduce knowable things to the experimentally observable.

Einstein views below, are personal, not science.

I'm sure Albert Einstein thought about these things longer than you or me.
Well, what do you think of these quotations from one of the most brilliant and insightful scientists of all time,

ALBERT EINSTEIN :

"There is harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognise, yet there are people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they quote me to support such views."

“Behind all the discernible concatenations, there remains something subtle, intangible and inexplicable. Veneration for this force is my religion. To that extent, I am in point of fact, religious.”

“Every scientist becomes convinced that the laws of nature manifest the existence of a spirit vastly superior to that of men.”

“Everyone who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the universe – a spirit vastly superior to that of man."

“The divine reveals itself in the physical world"

“My God created laws… His universe is not ruled by wishful thinking but by immutable laws.”

“I want to know how God created this world. I want to know his thoughts.”

“What I am really interested in knowing is whether God could have created the world in a different way.”

“This firm belief in a superior mind that reveals itself in the world of experience, represents my conception of God.”

“My religiosity consists of a humble admiration of the infinitely superior spirit, …That superior reasoning power forms my idea of God.”

“I want to know how God created this world.

"Then there are the fanatical atheists whose intolerance is of the same kind as the intolerance of the religious fanatics and comes from the same source.”

“I am not an atheist, and I don’t think I can call myself a pantheist.”

VVVVVVVVVVV

ameri9ja:


Chief Seun will never dare put this on FP. It too much debunks his religion. It is like asking a fervent Christian to put a well-made case against Christianity on FP.

These quotes from EINSTEIN say it all:

"Then there are the fanatical atheists whose intolerance is of the same kind as the intolerance of the religious fanatics and comes from the same source.”

"There is harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognise, yet there are people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they quote me to support such views."

Einstein's quotes doesn't validate any religious or theistic claim. It only emphasizes the aspects of reality we are not yet privy to which is undeniably existent.

It is outrageous to opine that anyone has discovered what this is. Einstein himself never denied this.

But for clarity in this discuss, we have to agree on one thing - there are aspects of reality we don't yet understand. It's just a matter of time, we'll always get to know better.

Religious assumptions have misled us in the past; it is past time to subscribe to anyone. This is the footstool of atheism - the rejection of any god-claim or knowledge of a God or Gods...

ScepticalPyrrho:
Einstein's quotes doesn't validate any religious or theistic claim. It only emphasizes the aspects of reality we are not yet privy to which is undeniably existent.

It is outrageous to opine that anyone has discovered what this is. Einstein himself never denied this.

But for clarity in this discuss, we have to agree on one thing - there are aspects of reality we don't yet understand. It's just a matter of time, we'll always get to know better.

Religious assumptions have misled us in the past; it is past time to subscribe to anyone. This is the footstool of atheism - the rejection of any god-claim or knowledge of a God or Gods...

That my response is coming. Meanwhile...

Don't be so committed to a belief that you lose the ability to follow the evidence (circumstantial or otherwise) wherever it may lead. That's my big advantage over you folks.

Here are Einstein's quotes again. You really think they are from someone who doesn't believe there is a God?

"My God created laws… His universe is not ruled by wishful thinking but by immutable laws.”

“I want to know how God created this world. I want to know his thoughts.”

“What I am really interested in knowing is whether God could have created the world in a different way.”

Meanwhile could u please watch "Demon magic" on you tube then tell me if u still believe there is no supernatural.

ameri9ja:


That my response is coming. Meanwhile...

Don't be so committed to a belief that you lose the ability to follow the evidence (circumstantial or otherwise) wherever it may lead. That's my big advantage over you folks.

Here are Einstein's quotes again. You really think they are from someone who doesn't believe there is a God?

"My God created laws… His universe is not ruled by wishful thinking but by immutable laws.”

“I want to know how God created this world. I want to know his thoughts.”

“What I am really interested in knowing is whether God could have created the world in a different way.”

Meanwhile could u please watch "Demon magic" on you tube then tell me if u still believe there is no supernatural.

Stop using Einstein for your arguments, Einstein was clearly not a theist.







Excerpts from Wikipedia

Seun:
Ameri9ja, is it accurate to say that you believe that, if a man claims to have had a supernatural encounter, and he composes a work of literature which is said to be very beautiful and easy to memorize, then he must have actually encountered a supernatural being, and could not possibly be mistaken, lying, or both? If not, can you clarify your position?

You seem to not believe that the supernatural entity that you believe that the Prophet encountered was actually who the Prophet said the entity said it was - Angel Gabriel. This means that either the being lied to the Prophet about its identity, or the Prophet lied about who it said it was. Which of the two possibilities is your position?

How do you reconcile your view of the Prophet as a honest man with your belief that he added self-serving and false revelations to the beautiful literature allegedly dictated to him by a supernatural being as the words of the creator of the universe? Would a honest man tell people that his own self-serving words are the words of the creator of the universe?

Is it accurate to say that the reason you are not a Muslim is because the message of the Prophet doesn't suit you? If you believe that the message is true, does it really matter whether it suits you or not? If you don't believe that the message is true, how can you be so sure that it came from a supernatural entity rather than the mind of a clever man who happened to be illiterate at a time when only a few lucky people were literate?

Also, you forgot to point out the portions of the Arabic scriptures that you consider to have been inspired so we can examine the claim of supernatural inspiration. Cheers.

Ok, I'm back...

(Let me first remind again that the thread is about whether an intelligent being is behind our reality and wether the supernatural exists)

Chief Seun you remind me of Christians who would argue vociferously that there are no contradictions in the Bible or Muslims who would want to murder you for even suggesting that an extra word could have been sneaked into the Koran. Due to mindless commitment to a belief, they would stretch, twist, and ignore evidence (circumstantial or otherwise) staring them right in the face.
(1)
Like I said before, at a point you have to accept that something is very likely true due to preponderance of circumstancial and indirect evidence otherwise you can dispute just about anything including history itself.

As you read this bear the word "MOTIVE" in mind.
In other to support your assertion that Muhammad had no supernatural encounter here
are some things you have to stretch and twist:

a) You, who is looking at this 1500 years after the fact, knows better than his wife, who was the first person to see him after the encounter and who become the very first Muslim because she totally believed him.

b) His wife was part of a conspiracy and was lying when she narrated how traumatized and frightened he was when he came in that day.

c) He was only pretending as he stayed traumatized for a long time and couldn't talk to anybody outside his family about it.

d) The first three years after the experience he couldn't talk to anybody outside his immediate circle about it. Forty of them became Muslims because they were part of the conspiracy.

e) He was constantly praying and fasting because... because of what?

f) When he finally took the message outside his circle he was ridicled, called a mad man, ostracized, his business boycotted. He took all this and persisted because... because of what?

g) He had a comfortable life, a happy marriage, and four kids. He jeopardized all that because... ?
h) He was offered kingship if would abandon the message. He said even if the moon and sun were given to him, he would not because... ?

i) The wise and mighty advised him to abandon the message. He refused because... ?

j) Finally it was determined he must be killed and he had to run away from the only home he knew because... ?

k) His illiterate mind came up with all the beautiful and perfect verses in the Koran. Authors usually write many books. He never "wrote" anything else before or after.

l) His illiterate mind came up with all the intricate and time-consuming praying and fasting rituals in the Koran, which he himself followed exactly despite being an extremely busy person, because... ?

m) Due to devotion to Islam he had to live a very hard and war-torn life. He did that because... ?

In your view he did all that because... because of what?
MOTIVE MOTIVE MOTIVE MOTIVE

(2)
It was Muhammad's wife, after some "research", that said it must be angel Gabriel. Muhammad himself said some verses were from the devil, hence you hear the term satanic verses. What I believe is irrelevant.

(3)
Muhammad was widely known for his justness and honesty BEFORE the encounter. After the encounter he changed. He later became a ruthless killer and married many wives. Though I also have to concede there is also a slight chance those self-serving verses were truly revelations he got.

(4)
Wether I'm a muslim or not is irrelevant to wether Muhammed had a supernatural encounter. I may choose to be Muslim even if I believe Muhammad didn't have a supernatural encounter. What we are doing here is, we are looking at facts and circumstantial evidence to determine what is likely true. That's why these personal questions smack of immaturity.

(5)
Why don't you point out to me photons or electrons or how do you know that e=mc stuff or historical minutiae are true? Most things we believe, we believe because preponderance of people in a position to know say so.You know fully well I don't read Arabic. "Everyone" in a position to know have said that there are verses in the Koran that were self-serving to Muhammad's needs at the time he produced them and then that there are other verses that are supernaturally beautiful and perfect.

(6)
I believe, all in all, the major religions have been good for humankind and have helped constrain the innate savagery and excesses of individuals.

DeepEyes:

@ameri9ja, seun's post here pretty much does justice to ur "proofs"

I was honestly hoping you would say something a bit "unfamiliar" but to use Biblical/Quoran stories and CLAIMS as proof doesn't really help ur argument with people who are in doubt of the very RELEVANCE of those books. Can't we have some proof thats not based on these same old boring proofs? Of all the people who believe in Bible God, can't anybody hear/see/know/experience something new to the world besides what the ancient believers had? Great men/women of God today claim to communicate with God frequently, yet they haven't thought to clarify critical biblical controversies with him, so that they may explain these to the world through relatable DIVINE knowledge? No! They are all just there grappling with the same Old Arabic controversial teachings and trying to explain these away with ordinary wits. This is fishy!


Also, it seems a lot of people (including you) confuse spirituality with religion- there's a difference. Miracles, prophesies etc are all elements of spirituality, not necessarily religion. Think Abt it: psychics, herbalists, prophets, seers, and the likes have always existed haven't they? In biblical times and even today. Some of these people are capable of miracles and prophesies aren't they? So u see that its not really about Bible God or religion- just spirituality, something available to mankind with or without their belief in God. This is why bad people can pray and still get answers, and why Voodoo people can do voodoo. So religion using it's own form of spirituality (praying, miracles etc) to cash in as "proof" of the scriptural God is void and pathetic!


Guess what? In the middle ages Europe, people honestly believed that women flew on brooms! They called them witches and murdered any woman suspected of this practice. Whether these allegations were true back then, WE CAN'T BE SURE NOW. But as time went by, civilization quenched these claims and ladies stopped getting murdered. This is same with religion. Only difference is that the world leaders NEED religion to control the world, hence their reinforcement of religious beliefs! Otherwise they wud have abolished this too and you won't be believing in flying​ women or ancient doctrines today. Oh and before you say Jesus prophesied that his word would remain in future, lemme inform u that Mohammed also predicted future supremacy, yet both are rival parties apparently from the SAME GOD! What is he, a confusionist?? Don't be fooled; religion is only alive today because it was FORCEFULLY reinforced by those who wanted POWER over others. It is a political tool, and a cash cow too! Otherwise religion wud be long dead and forgotten.


Like I've stated earlier, we either agree that the world was created by a supernatural MAN-LIKE being named YAHWEH, who was just as crazy as any science genius (according to what the holy books clearly show us), or we accept religion as it is; an ancient belief that has long expired! Either way, modern religious doctrines wud still be wrong and misleading, as they SHY AWAY from either facts! However, what we should try to understand better is SPIRITUALITY! Meditation, prayers, fasting, counting beads, voodoo, rituals, prophesies, miracles, are all FORMS OF SPIRITUALITY- and these should be our focus if we are to figure out anything anytime soon- not droning after ancient claims by a certain group of people practicing and forcefully spreading THEIR OWN KIND of spirituality- religion! Why not just stick to their doctrines 100% by not doing anything on SABBATH (Saturday) bla bla and all that crazy shiit in the Holy Books that modern religion CONVENIENTLY avoids now ehn? Doesnt this make religious practitioners hypocritical?

Somehow I missed this response. Thanks for the response, DeepEyes, didn't mean to ignore it.
Will read it later and respond.

Niflheim:
@op,

Concerning question number one:......................................................There is no such thing as "nothing", so your first question is malformed(It is going through a process known as "CATASTROPHIC KWASHIOKORFICATION", which means that it belongs in the dustbin of history)!!!

Just now saw this post. Thanks 4 it, didn't mean to ignore it.
Please explain what u mean by:
There is no such thing as "nothing"

matrix600:
Stop using Einstein for your arguments, Einstein was clearly not a theist. Excerpts from Wikipedia

Thanks for your post... and patience. I will reply the other post soon.

First of all I never used any lebel to characterize Einstein. He had a long life and said many things. I only presented quotes that are representative of the median of his words and thinking. Throughout his life he talked about God
as something he believed in, words like: "I don't think God plays dice with the universe" and "I want to know the mind of God, everything else is detail"

Secondly, I think u r confusing "theist" with "conventionally religious". "Theist" is actually the opposite of "Atheist". "Theism" is the belief that there is some sort of God or Design (and therefore a Designer) to the universe. "Atheism" is the absence or denial of such belief. There are only the two, nothing else: Either u believe there is some Design or u lack such belief. Einstein said categorically: "I am not an atheist". What does that make him? Provide us a one-word answer.

ScepticalPyrrho:


1)
If it is unverifiable, it isn't science. You can contest any scientific discovery claims by testing them out.

2)
If I tell you how long I've been engaged in deep thoughts about the origin and nature of the universe, you won't believe it. But my thoughts have never been more guided than when I gained exposure to philosophical propositions on the subject matter.

Try it out, you'll thank me later.

3)
What are those prophesies or foretells that baffles so much? Please share them.

Finally, I have some time to answer this... thanks for the patience.

1)
Not true. There are many scientific claims you can't test out and that are unverifiable. Take dark matter, it is just a euphemism for "we don't know". Speaking of dark matter, u hang everything on science, doesn't it concern u that scientists start out by admitting they know ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about 96% of the PHYSICAL universe (not to talk of other possible
aspects of the universe unimaginable and undetectable to us).

2)
That's where u went wrong. Philosophy and science and even thinking will never reveal the true nature of what we r dealing with. Direct experience and intuition (just knowing) will. A drowning person who calls on Lord Jesus and a hand seems to suddenly lift him out of the water, KNOWS. A miserable person who knew no peace till he joins Islam, KNOWS. A person who receives a perfectly composed song and all he had to do was write it down, KNOWS. The problem with science and philosophy is that they ignore what's right in front of them and all around them simply because they don't follow the laws of cause and effect or logic.

3)
Here is a response I sent to Chief Seun when he asked the same qestion:

Seun I am really surprised at you. Why pick an argument you are sure to quickly and easily lose?
OK, here goes :
** I was in the audience when a preacher predicted the planes flying into the World Trade towers in New York years before it happend. Explain that?
**Prophet Mohamed, totally and completely illiterate, was able to dictate the whole Koran, which he said was put on his lips by a supernatural entity he encountered while fasting in the caves. Explain that.
** St. Paul, bent on killing Christians, became the greatest proponent of Christianity after an encounter with a supernatural entity. Explain that
** Countless prophesies, miracles, prayers answered, lives dramatically transformed, etc.
Nostradamas' prophecies of hundreds of years ago still coming true till today. Explain all that.
------------------
It is not about just popularity of belief as I'm sure you very well know. If it is prophesied thousands of years ahead of time that a special person was coming and that person comes and says he is the one prophesied about and that his words would be around for thousands of years and, thousands of years later, it turns out he was right, don't u think there has to be something real there, though unexplainable by logic and science?
------------------------------------
4)
Some people are born with or have a strong sense of God (or the devil!). Some are born with no such sense at all. Others are in between. Some, from the moment they r born, are under spiritual attack (no, it is not psychlogical ), others don't even know what that means. It is very liberating to believe there is no God. And it greatly simplifies things to believe there is no supernatural. The question is, are you being an ostrich with his head in the sand?

@ameri9ja,

Please, read very carefully!!! This is an opportunity for you to finally realize that not everything we have been told in the past is correct!!!


Science has always used the word "nothing" in a literal sense(the "theological nothing" of our religious books), due to the fact that most scientific universities and institutions were originally controlled by the Catholic churches and islamic institutions!!! But now, with more advanced scientific instrumentations and an exponential increase in knowledge, we now know that alot of those things are false!!!

Cave man physics question: Is the glass half full or half empty?

Cave man answer: The glass is half-empty(WRONG!!!)

21st Century Quantum Physicist answer: The glass is neither half full, nor half empty, because the so-called empty space is still filled with air molecules, micro scopic organisms, water vapour, etc etc.There are probably also going to be heat particles present in the so-called empty space.

SUMMARY: There is no such thing as "nothing'!!! Never has been and never will be!!! It was a mistake that was introduced into science by religious people and there is no need to hold on to such an error ever again!!! There is always going to be "something"!!!

I challenge any man who has ever observed "nothing" to come forward with his proof and he shall receive a million naira!!!!

Niflheim:
@ameri9ja,

Please, read very carefully!!! This is an opportunity for you to finally realize that not everything we have been told in the past is correct!!!


Science has always used the word "nothing" in a literal sense(the "theological nothing" of our religious books), due to the fact that most scientific universities and institutions were originally controlled by the Catholic churches and islamic institutions!!! But now, with more advanced scientific instrumentations and an exponential increase in knowledge, we now know that alot of those things are false!!!

Cave man physics question: Is the glass half full or half empty?

Cave man answer: The glass is half-empty(WRONG!!!)

21st Century Quantum Physicist answer: The glass is neither half full, nor half empty, because the so-called empty space is still filled with air molecules, micro scopic organisms, water vapour, etc etc.There are probably also going to be heat particles present in the so-called empty space.

SUMMARY: There is no such thing as "nothing'!!! Never has been and never will be!!! It was a mistake that was introduced into science by religious people and there is no need to hold on to such an error ever again!!! There is always going to be "something"!!!

I challenge any man who has ever observed "nothing" to come forward with his proof and he shall receive a million naira!!!!

Thanks for your post. Isn't this thread fun? Here we are discussing... nothing! Nothing at all! (Lol)

With all due respect, this is a convoluted write-up.
First of all the physicists were wrong, the cave man was right. The question implied "empty of liquid water". Otherwise many questions cannot be asked (like "Is he black?" Or "What time is it?"

Of course nothing exists. As a concept, it is nothing that defines something, just as up defines down. Nothing is the absence of thing.
But even in reality physicists say u can remove all things (including time, space, and gravity) and what u have left is nothing.

But what has all these have to do with religion?
It was a priest who first proposed the big bang.
Then (atheistic) physicists hijacked it and proposed it came from nothing (One of them joked, "thanks for nothing", because without nothing we won't be here). Of course as "nothing" is limitless and as our big bang can't be the first or last, they had to propose there are infinite number of universes, most of them unimaginably different from ours.

Here is a copy-and-paste from the web:

Some physicists think they can explain why the universe first formed. If they are right, our entire cosmos may have sprung out of nothing at all.

Their admittedly controversial answer is that the entire universe, from the fireball of the Big Bang to the star-studded cosmos we now inhabit, popped into existence from nothing at all. It had to happen, they say, because "nothing" is inherently unstable.

This idea may sound bizarre, or just another fanciful creation story. But the physicists argue that it follows naturally from science's two most powerful and successful theories: quantum mechanics and general relativity.

Here, then, is how everything could have come from nothing:

 Quantum mechanics tells us that "nothing" is inherently unstable, so the initial leap from nothing to something may have been inevitable. Then the resulting tiny bubble of space-time could have burgeoned into a massive, busy universe, thanks to inflation. As Krauss puts it, "The laws of physics as we understand them make it eminently plausible that our universe arose from nothing - no space, no time, no particles, nothing that we now know of."

So why did it only happen once? If one space-time bubble popped into existence and inflated to form our universe, what kept other bubbles from doing the same?

Linde offers a simple but mind-bending answer. He thinks universes have always been springing into existence, and that this process will continue forever.

Here is another copy-and-paste from the web:

Does nothing exist?
 
Yes.  Whether there are a finite number of things that exist, or an infinite number of things that exists, no other things exist in addition to those that do exist.  Thus, nothing else exists.  That nothing that exists beyond all things that do exist is not a thing.  It is only a being.  It asserts no causal influence over reality.  It is just included in our list of beings that are included in reality.

DeepEyes:

@ameri9ja, seun's post here pretty much does justice to ur "proofs"

I was honestly hoping you would say something a bit "unfamiliar" but to use Biblical/Quoran stories and CLAIMS as proof doesn't really help ur argument with people who are in doubt of the very RELEVANCE of those books. Can't we have some proof thats not based on these same old boring proofs? Of all the people who believe in Bible God, can't anybody hear/see/know/experience something new to the world besides what the ancient believers had? Great men/women of God today claim to communicate with God frequently, yet they haven't thought to clarify critical biblical controversies with him, so that they may explain these to the world through relatable DIVINE knowledge? No! They are all just there grappling with the same Old Arabic controversial teachings and trying to explain these away with ordinary wits. This is fishy!


Also, it seems a lot of people (including you) confuse spirituality with religion- there's a difference. Miracles, prophesies etc are all elements of spirituality, not necessarily religion. Think Abt it: psychics, herbalists, prophets, seers, and the likes have always existed haven't they? In biblical times and even today. Some of these people are capable of miracles and prophesies aren't they? So u see that its not really about Bible God or religion- just spirituality, something available to mankind with or without their belief in God. This is why bad people can pray and still get answers, and why Voodoo people can do voodoo. So religion using it's own form of spirituality (praying, miracles etc) to cash in as "proof" of the scriptural God is void and pathetic!


Guess what? In the middle ages Europe, people honestly believed that women flew on brooms! They called them witches and murdered any woman suspected of this practice. Whether these allegations were true back then, WE CAN'T BE SURE NOW. But as time went by, civilization quenched these claims and ladies stopped getting murdered. This is same with religion. Only difference is that the world leaders NEED religion to control the world, hence their reinforcement of religious beliefs! Otherwise they wud have abolished this too and you won't be believing in flying​ women or ancient doctrines today. Oh and before you say Jesus prophesied that his word would remain in future, lemme inform u that Mohammed also predicted future supremacy, yet both are rival parties apparently from the SAME GOD! What is he, a confusionist?? Don't be fooled; religion is only alive today because it was FORCEFULLY reinforced by those who wanted POWER over others. It is a political tool, and a cash cow too! Otherwise religion wud be long dead and forgotten.


Like I've stated earlier, we either agree that the world was created by a supernatural MAN-LIKE being named YAHWEH, who was just as crazy as any science genius (according to what the holy books clearly show us), or we accept religion as it is; an ancient belief that has long expired! Either way, modern religious doctrines wud still be wrong and misleading, as they SHY AWAY from either facts! However, what we should try to understand better is SPIRITUALITY! Meditation, prayers, fasting, counting beads, voodoo, rituals, prophesies, miracles, are all FORMS OF SPIRITUALITY- and these should be our focus if we are to figure out anything anytime soon- not droning after ancient claims by a certain group of people practicing and forcefully spreading THEIR OWN KIND of spirituality- religion! Why not just stick to their doctrines 100% by not doing anything on SABBATH (Saturday) bla bla and all that crazy shiit in the Holy Books that modern religion CONVENIENTLY avoids now ehn? Doesnt this make religious practitioners hypocritical?

Thanks for your, once again, intelligent post. Isn't this thread just a lot of fun? We should keep it going forever.

Well, I think you are just currying favour with Sean because he is the boss. Either that or you have not been following our posts. But Sean is no fool - he can see clearly on whose side you are.
As I have reminded many times the tread is about
1) Wether an intelligent being is involved in setting up our reality - you say yes, Sean says an emphatic no.
2)This led to wether a supernatural exists - once again you say yes, Sean again says an emphatic Nyet.

I often stated that the thread is not about me or retail religion but I kept being drawn into discussions of religion. The things I mentioned (BTW Nostradamus is not religion) are in attempt to prove the existence of a supernatural and are not about religion.

As for my confusing spirituality with religion, far from it, you are the one confusing a discussion of intelligent design with a discussion of religion. Also it would seem you are a bit confused as to what spirituality is. Maybe you should read up on it. Google SBNR. Prophecies, miracles, psychics, herbalists, have little to do with spirituality. They can be part of religion, but not necessarilly. But they are definitely part of the Supernatural and that's the only connection with which I mentioned them.

So please understand, the discussion is not about religion. But it would seem certain people (maybe yourself included) like to coner discussions like this into a referendum about religion. My statements on religion were made in response to statements made by others on religion. For instance, if you imply that only bad has come from religion, I have to (as the objective observer) counter that some good have also come from religion.

But since you folks have decided that the discussion has to include religion and me, I want to make my position on religion clear:
I don't want people to lose their religious beliefs.
What I want is that those beliefs be dissociated from clergy and authority - a relationship between them and their God with no intervening
pastor or authority figure. I am sure you don't think 9ja would be a better place if every 9ja became an atheist. If someone had converted Evans to a devout Christian or moslem all those kidnappings would have been avoided. Likewise, you don't know the armed robber you avoided because someone converted them.

Funny u r going to Middle Ages Europe to find something that is happening in your own country TODAY.

As for Christ and Mohamed, please there is no comparison. Christ was foretold by so many prophets, no one foretold Mohamed. Christ taught love and forgive your enemies, Mohamed taught kill your enemies... and non-believers. But I think Islam was brought for the other descendants of Abraham (from Ishmeal) who were basically lost and worshipping idols.
But God can do whatever He wants, any way He wants, including have more than one religion. Who are you to question Him?

Thanks once again for your post.

@ameri9ja,

I was warned about you!!! I was warned to stay clear away from you because you are the type of person that loves to hold on to cave man error!!! So far you have not disappointed them(as in the people who warned me that you are not interested in learning anything new)!!! My last and final comment on this thread!!!

LINK 1:........................................http://bigthink.com/robby-berman/theres-no-such-thing-as-nothing-according-to-quantum-physics

LINK 2:........................................http://www.physics-astronomy.com/2017/04/theres-no-such-thing-as-nothing.html#.WXEBFraQzcs

LINK 3:........................................http://feedbox.com/2017/03/theres-no-such-thing-as-nothing-according-to-quantum-physics/

LINK 4:.......................................http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/519405-in-modern-physics-there-is-no-such-thing-as-nothing

LINK 5:......................................https://www.newscientist.com/blogs/nstv/2011/11/why-there-is-no-such-thing-as-empty-space.html


When I saw that your statement about the cavemen being right, and the Quantum Physicists being wrong, I knew that I had to flee from you forever!!! Don't be surprised when you continuously receive insults on Nairaland!!!