TheUmbra:



You miss the whole point and the moral of my story. The goat stolen is the woman and she belongs to her parents. The thief is the man who had sex with without fulfilling the matrimonial requirement of dowry.

Now when he's caught and he's willing to pay for his misdeeds by marrying the girl properly, pregnancy shouldn't be an obstacle in such a case. There's no scriptural backing to this madness. Make no mistake, we're not in support of fornication, and no church can really stop fornication. But when two fornicators decide to get married and a church denied them this right because the woman is pregnant, there's no wisdom or direction from the HOLY SPIRIT in such decision.

Now in response to your earlier post, Deuteronomy 22:28-29 was not just referring to a rape case. It also addresses two consensual fornicators. Consider Exodus 22:16 "If a man seduces a virgin who is not engaged to anyone and has sex with her, he must pay the customary bride price and marry her"

I'll point you to yet another scriptural precedent:

My Mary was pregnant, she wasn't married to Joseph. They were only engaged. No bride price had been paid. Yet Mary's tommy was visibly pregnant that even Joseph noticed it.

No one in the community called Mary names. They assumed Joseph was responsible since both Joseph and Mary's family have accepted their engagement. Mary was not ridiculed or shamed for being pregnant without getting married.

Fast forward to our modern day church and Mary who was so exemplary in the church as well as in the community gets pregnant without being married! She'd have suffered humiliation and human judgement which has no meaning in sight of GOD.

Again, no one is support fornication, which is a sin, but denying couples the right to church marriage due to pregnancy compounds the problem. It's not scriptural and has no biblical backing.


Your claim "church wedding should be 'bed undefile'" is a confused and mixed up paradigm which addresses adultery, for married couples.

Until you understand that a pastor/priest have no real ordination to bond any couple in matrimony, you'd not come to the truth about marriage.

If two people who have had sex and pregnancy ensues, if they go forward to be joined in matrimony, it gets done as marriage blessing. Marriage blessing is also valid and acceptable.

analice107:

this is my point. Fornication is evil, so should not be condoned. And I said, pregnancy is the fruit of fornication.

Another thing you shd note is that, many of us have lived without Christ before redemption, now that we are saved, we cannot become virgins any more, so if i want to marry, i shd not be denied wedding based on the fact that am no more a virgin.

But, if i, after redemption returns to sin and gets pregnant, it's actually a shame on my part because am either still a babe in Christ or do not understand what Christianity is about.

It's like me accepting Christ into my life, but when at home amongst my unbelieving family members, i join them in their idol worship all over again and brought to Church food sacrifice to that idol inviting my brethren to be part of it, claiming nothing is wrong with it.

Fornication which brings about pregnancy is likened to idol worship.

Are u implying that God doesn't forgive a ''redeemed'' christian that fornicates if he/she is truly repentant. If God forgives, who r u to judge

analice107:

If two people who have had sex and pregnancy ensues, if they go forward to be joined in matrimony, it gets done as marriage blessing. Marriage blessing is also valid and acceptable.

Marriage blessing? What is marriage blessing? Marriage for old couples who didn't get married in the Christian way, even though they were properly married according to tradition?

Or the church denies the intending couple "marriage blessing" until the woman puts to bed?

Which ever way, this is pure pastoral arrogance. While marriage was originated by GOD, church wedding is a man-made act which was born out of man's inclination to always exert control and overstep his bounds.

Scriptural passages are replete with Shepherds and leaders who overstepped their jurisdiction and impose their own will on the people. In CHRIST' s days it was the Pharisees, in Paul's days you have the rampaging Jews who were insistent that gentiles follow all the old testament laws. Paul called them dogs and mutilators.

In the middle age these men hijacked marriage and gave the priest the power to join couples in marriage and conduct the ceremony.

In the 21st century, you find esp pastors of Africa or Africa descent exhibiting an overdose of power-drunkenness, religious imperialism and autocratic dispositions These men never took the path of the humble SHEPHERD. They don't see their services as advisory but compulsory.

And so they don't tell their church members that it's crucial they conduct medical tests for genotype, blood group and pregnancy, and leave the choice to their discretion, rather, they make it compulsory because they know their flock has been deceived into believing the traditional marriage rite hold less significance than a church marriage. So they give their flock conditions including types of hairdos, and makeup restrictions. These are self-righteous prigs who don't even understand the "S" in salvation.

A couple fulfills their traditional matrimonial rites and duly married and the next week they head to the church for church wedding and the pastor rises up in his arrogance and pontificatingly declares "I now declare you man and wife". And so negating the significance of the traditional marriage which has more weight.

If a girl is pregnant and the man responsible for the pregnancy seek to marry her in a church, the pastor does well to marry them. Only a pharisee would find a reason not to and call them sinners.

TheUmbra:


Marriage blessing? What is marriage blessing? Marriage for old couples who didn't get married in the Christian way, even though they were properly married according to tradition?

Or the church denies the intending couple "marriage blessing" until the woman puts to bed?

Which ever way, this is pure pastoral arrogance. While marriage was originated by GOD, church wedding is a man-made act which was born out of man's inclination to always exert control and overstep his bounds.

Scriptural passages are replete with Shepherds and leaders who overstepped their jurisdiction and impose their own will on the people. In CHRIST' s days it was the Pharisees, in Paul's days you have the rampaging Jews who were insistent that gentiles follow all the old testament laws. Paul called them dogs and mutilators.

In the middle age these men hijacked marriage and gave the priest the power to join couples in marriage and conduct the ceremony.

In the 21st century, you find esp pastors of Africa or Africa descent exhibiting an overdose of power-drunkenness, religious imperialism and autocratic dispositions These men never took the path of the humble SHEPHERD. They don't see their services as advisory but compulsory.

And so they don't tell their church members that it's crucial they conduct medical tests for genotype, blood group and pregnancy, and leave the choice to their discretion, rather, they make it compulsory because they know their flock has been deceived into believing the traditional marriage rite hold less significance than a church marriage. So they give their flock conditions including types of hairdos, and makeup restrictions. These are self-righteous prigs who don't even understand the "S" in salvation.

A couple fulfills their traditional matrimonial rites and duly married and the next week they head to the church for church wedding and the pastor rises up in his arrogance and pontificatingly declares "I now declare you man and wife". And so negating the significance of the traditional marriage which has more weight.

If a girl is pregnant and the man responsible for the pregnancy seek to marry her in a church, the pastor does well to marry them. Only a pharisee would find a reason not to and call them sinners.

Okay then.

Let them marry.

Gen 38

Christianity frown at it so people don't engage in premarital sex

analice107:

Okay then.

Does this mean you've changed your stand on this, and now agrees with him?

God bless you too.

Syncan:

Does this mean you've changed your stand on this, and now agrees with him?
God bless you too.

No. but i just decided to leave it at that.

analice107:

No. but i just decided to leave it at that.

Is this the right thing to do? Considering that someone needed your input, yet now you leave me to what you see as error.

Syncan:


Is this the right thing to do? Considering that someone needed your input, yet now you leave me to what you see as error.

Bros, fornication which results in pregnancy is a terrible sin before God, and he admits to that, but if he sees it to be okay to bring in a pregnant lady to wed, that's fine by him, but going the Bible i still read, if that will be condoned, am not sure the issue of fornication in the church will be an issue we are warned to stay away from.


We have the holy spirit to ask what we don't understand. My tradition, Now, local tradition o, do not marry off a pregnant lady.

Except it's not noticed, but if it is, no one will even accept the invitation for that gathering. When the Child is born, the Couple can come for blessing, but not before.

If my tradition sees it as a taboo to give out a pregnant woman as wife, why shd i down peddle on it when i have seen it drummed at as sin before God?.

I said before, that a woman who commits fornication gets pregnant and has the affront to come to Church and demand to be wed, is like a woman who claims she has given her life to Christ, but still turns to eat from the temples or alters of idols, that not being enough, she brings some food sacrificed to idols to Church and demands that the pastor partakes from it.

The union between a man and a woman in the physical realm is the same with our union with God in the spiritual realm. The Bible calls the Church (whom we are, not any building) the bride of Christ, and he 'Christ', the bride groom. when we commit this sin we ought to be divorced according to the Master himself

Wen we go outside of marriage, it's a grave sin, little wonder Jesus permits that only under this circumstance can a marriage break and a divorce given.

Can you not see how deep formication runs? It's not enough that a believer committed this sin, but still brought in her pregnancy and demanded to be wedded. She shd come for marriage blessing instead. She has broken the foundation.

Analice107, you intermix adultery and fornication in your writeup.

I want you to understand the hypocrisy and double standard-ness of man. Fornication before marriage that didn't lead to pregnancy and fornication that resulted in pregnancy are the same sin of fornication. They're both guilty before GOD. Should the church penalise the woman with pregnancy while the other who probably is a more grievous fornicator escapes and go all the way wearing white gown, walking down the aisle with a hidden pile of immortality? Isn't it what CHRIST said about the Pharisees who pay much emphasis on the outside rather than the inside? Who like to wash their hands but the inside of them remains unclean?

If the church would demand pregnancy test as a condition for staging a church wedding, then it's more befitting and proper they conduct VIRGINITY TEST so they can be well assured the woman is pure and undefiled and not a fornicator.

Is there any sin grievous enough that can prevent a man or woman from approaching the Throne of Grace? Was GOD's directive in Exodus 22 : 16 not a solution aimed at remedying an ugly situation? GOD's will for man is redemption, to restore that which was broken or lost. Not to compound or destroy.

I tell you, christians are the greatest obstacle to salvation, not the unbelieving world. We have set barriers and standards against our brethren, barriers and standards we ourselves couldn't cross.

Even when there was little or no grace in the Mosaic era, GOD was mindful and made a way for fornicators to get married so that children may be born legitimately.

Again, you still fail to realise that the true marriage as ordained by GOD is the act where the father of the bride hands over his daughter to the bridegroom after he fulfills the requirements of dowry. The church wedding is only a blessing of some sort and not an act of matrimonial bonding. The bonding took place already at the traditional setting. A pastor or priest has no spiritual or physical authority to give out anyone in marriage or bond them in matrimony. That power remains the privilege of the father of the bride.

If a church wants to punish fornicators, it is within their right to do so, but denying a pregnant fornicator the right to marry in the church is foolishness. It has not solved the problem, rather it worsens it and even stigmatise the unborn baby.

Legalistic christians not only lack the HOLY SPIRIT, they also lack common sense.

analice107:

Bros, fornication which results in pregnancy is a terrible sin before God, and he admits to that, but if he sees it to be okay to bring in a pregnant lady to wed, that's fine by him, but going the Bible i still read, if that will be condoned, am not sure the issue of fornication in the church will be an issue we are warned to stay away from.


We have the holy spirit to ask what we don't understand. My tradition, Now, local tradition o, do not marry off a pregnant lady.

Except it's not noticed, but if it is, no one will even accept the invitation for that gathering. When the Child is born, the Couple can come for blessing, but not before.

If my tradition sees it as a taboo to give out a pregnant woman as wife, why shd i down peddle on it when i have seen it drummed at as sin before God?.

I said before, that a woman who commits fornication gets pregnant and has the affront to come to Church and demand to be wed, is like a woman who claims she has given her life to Christ, but still turns to eat from the temples or alters of idols, that not being enough, she brings some food sacrificed to idols to Church and demands that the pastor partakes from it.

The union between a man and a woman in the physical realm is the same with our union with God in the spiritual realm. The Bible calls the Church (whom we are, not any building) the bride of Christ, and he 'Christ', the bride groom. when we commit this sin we ought to be divorced according to the Master himself

Wen we go outside of marriage, it's a grave sin, little wonder Jesus permits that only under this circumstance can a marriage break and a divorce given.

Can you not see how deep formication runs? It's not enough that a believer committed this sin, but still brought in her pregnancy and demanded to be wedded. She shd come for marriage blessing instead. She has broken the foundation.

Hmm...I may have something to say, but firstly, If I may ask Sis, are you open to having a contrary view on a religious subject, based on more exposition or higher enlightenment, or is your view on religious matters a full and final one from the Holy spirit, without the possibility of change?

TheUmbra:
Analice107, you intermix adultery and fornication in your writeup.

I want you to understand the hypocrisy and double standard-ness of man. Fornication before marriage that didn't lead to pregnancy and fornication that resulted in pregnancy are the same sin of fornication. They're both guilty before GOD. Should the church penalise the woman with pregnancy while the other who probably is a more grievous fornicator escapes and go all the way wearing white gown, walking down the aisle with a hidden pile of immortality? Isn't it what CHRIST said about the Pharisees who pay much emphasis on the outside rather than the inside? Who like to wash their hands but the inside of them remains unclean?

If the church would demand pregnancy test as a condition for staging a church wedding, then it's more befitting and proper they conduct VIRGINITY TEST so they can be well assured the woman is pure and undefiled and not a fornicator.

Is there any sin grievous enough that can prevent a man or woman from approaching the Throne of Grace? Was GOD's directive in Exodus 22 : 16 not a solution aimed at remedying an ugly situation? GOD's will for man is redemption, to restore that which was broken or lost. Not to compound or destroy.

I tell you, christians are the greatest obstacle to salvation, not the unbelieving world. We have set barriers and standards against our brethren, barriers and standards we ourselves couldn't cross.

Even when there was little or no grace in the Mosaic era, GOD was mindful and made a way for fornicators to get married so that children may be born legitimately.

Again, you still fail to realise that the true marriage as ordained by GOD is the act where the father of the bride hands over his daughter to the bridegroom after he fulfills the requirements of dowry. The church wedding is only a blessing of some sort and not an act of matrimonial bonding. The bonding took place already at the traditional setting. A pastor or priest has no spiritual or physical authority to give out anyone in marriage or bond them in matrimony. That power remains the privilege of the father of the bride.

If a church wants to punish fornicators, it is within their right to do so, but denying a pregnant fornicator the right to marry in the church is foolishness. It has not solved the problem, rather it worsens it and even stigmatise the unborn baby.

Legalistic christians not only lack the HOLY SPIRIT, they also lack common sense.

I am not God, but the intelligence and insightfulness of your thoughts leave me with no other option than to proclaim u as saved. You are a good person indeed. I am sorry to say it, but what Analice has been posting here reeks of Phariseeism. It's so obvious but she just doesn't know it.

TheUmbra:
Analice107, you intermix adultery and fornication in your writeup.

I want you to understand the hypocrisy and double standard-ness of man. Fornication before marriage that didn't lead to pregnancy and fornication that resulted in pregnancy are the same sin of fornication. They're both guilty before GOD. Should the church penalise the woman with pregnancy while the other who probably is a more grievous fornicator escapes and go all the way wearing white gown, walking down the aisle with a hidden pile of immortality? Isn't it what CHRIST said about the Pharisees who pay much emphasis on the outside rather than the inside? Who like to wash their hands but the inside of them remains unclean?

If the church would demand pregnancy test as a condition for staging a church wedding, then it's more befitting and proper they conduct VIRGINITY TEST so they can be well assured the woman is pure and undefiled and not a fornicator.

Is there any sin grievous enough that can prevent a man or woman from approaching the Throne of Grace? Was GOD's directive in Exodus 22 : 16 not a solution aimed at remedying an ugly situation? GOD's will for man is redemption, to restore that which was broken or lost. Not to compound or destroy.

I tell you, christians are the greatest obstacle to salvation, not the unbelieving world. We have set barriers and standards against our brethren, barriers and standards we ourselves couldn't cross.

Even when there was little or no grace in the Mosaic era, GOD was mindful and made a way for fornicators to get married so that children may be born legitimately.

Again, you still fail to realise that the true marriage as ordained by GOD is the act where the father of the bride hands over his daughter to the bridegroom after he fulfills the requirements of dowry. The church wedding is only a blessing of some sort and not an act of matrimonial bonding. The bonding took place already at the traditional setting. A pastor or priest has no spiritual or physical authority to give out anyone in marriage or bond them in matrimony. That power remains the privilege of the father of the bride.

If a church wants to punish fornicators, it is within their right to do so, but denying a pregnant fornicator the right to marry in the church is foolishness. It has not solved the problem, rather it worsens it and even stigmatise the unborn baby.

Legalistic christians not only lack the HOLY SPIRIT, they also lack common sense.

this

TheUmbra:


I'll like to give you a little illustration which follows thus:

A man once lived in a little Christian community. Most people living in that community were mostly decent and GODly people who practice their Christian faith with all sincerity as far as their understanding leads them.

One day, the man became hungry and stole his neighbour's goat and ate it. He was caught and reported to the king who doubles as the town's priest.

The man pleaded and offered to repay the stolen goat but the king refused and banished him for bringing such shame and abominable act of stealing in a GODly community. The man was denied the opportunity to right his wrong.

Just thinking how that is analogous.

My point is this; a man who brings a lady he impregnated to church in order to make her his wife does well. He has taken the first step of repentance, to right his wrong and give the woman a befitting place in his life. A church denying him this opportunity of righting his wrong does not act in the wisdom of the HOLY SPIRIT, but from the legalistic yoke of a Pharisee.

Where does the holy spirit say what you wrote up there?

That was not the principle of CHRIST and the adulterous woman in John 8. Slut-shaming a woman by denying her the opportunity to a church wedding because she's pregnant as a result of fornication has no scriptural base. It spurned from man's self-righteous act and extra-scriptural misapplication.

It is a different matter when a Christian brother and sister are caught in fornication and the church decides to discipline them.

And what gives a church the right to ask intending couples to do a compulsory pregnancy test? What sheer arrogance and pastoral overreach! Do they go over the board making sure every money donated in their offertory coffers is untainted? Bloody 21st century Pharisees!

I don't know why any church would demand a compulsory pregnancy test. What I do know is that some guys are dubious, trying to falsely get consummated.

They must not wed in a church sha.

There was never a direct or implied command from GOD to any priest or pastor to join any couple in matrimony. And none of the patriarch in scripture ever did. Not Moses, not CHRIST nor any of HIS disciples.

There's no scriptural reference from where a priest or pastor can draw his authority to declare couple husband and wife. Church marriage was man's creation.

Ya, men established the so called white wedding. However, there isn't anything wrong in it since it runs by bible principle of what is acceptable to the Lord. That being the case, it is unacceptable to the Lord for a pregnant woman to be wedded in a xten building. It is an abomination.

Meanwhile the John 8 you stated is spurious.

But it's a good thing if only priests and pastors would stop hijacking the roles of parents and act humbly by blessing the union after obtaining the consent of the couple and of their parents.

Marriage is meant to be done by people who haven't known themselves prior to the wedding. If that has been wrongly done, and it is even clearly evident, why should you bring reproach to Gods name by consummating such couple? Those persons would in fact be disfellowshupped. 1cor 5:11-12

Among JWs, the one who officiates in church wedding is approved by the govt to do so. So the law of the land gave him an authority.

TheUmbra:



You miss the whole point and the moral of my story.

The goat stolen is the woman and she belongs to her parents. The thief is the man who had sex with her without fulfilling the matrimonial requirement of dowry.

Now when he's caught and he's willing to pay for his misdeeds by marrying the girl properly, pregnancy shouldn't be an obstacle in such a case. There's no scriptural backing to this madness. Make no mistake, we're not in support of fornication, and no church can really stop fornication. But when two fornicators decide to get married and a church denies them this right because the woman is pregnant, there's no wisdom or direction from the HOLY SPIRIT in such decision.

Now in response to your earlier post, Deuteronomy 22:28-29 was not just referring to a rape case. It also addresses two consensual fornicators. Consider Exodus 22:16 "If a man seduces a virgin who is not engaged to anyone and has sex with her, he must pay the customary bride price and marry her"

I'll point you to yet another scriptural precedent:

Mary was pregnant, she wasn't married to Joseph. They were only engaged. No bride price had been paid. Yet Mary's tommy was visibly pregnant that even Joseph noticed it.

No one in the community called Mary names. They assumed Joseph was responsible since both Joseph and Mary's family have accepted their engagement. Mary was not ridiculed or shamed for being pregnant without getting married.

Fast forward to our modern day church and Mary who was so exemplary in the church as well as in the community gets pregnant without being married! She'd have suffered humiliation and human judgement which has no meaning in the sight of GOD.

Again, no one is in support of fornication, which is a sin, but denying couples the right to church marriage due to pregnancy compounds the problem. It's not scriptural and has no biblical backing.


Your claim "church wedding should be 'bed undefile'" is a confused and mixed up paradigm which addresses adultery for married couples.

Until you understand that a pastor/priest have no real ordination to bond any couple in matrimony, you'd not come to the truth about marriage.

Analice got banned for a month for posting off topic.

Pls sir, leave Pastors/Priests out of this. My focus is not on them and how they interpret the scriptures. My focus is on believers who have received salvation, who ought to get transformed and be renewed in their souls and bodies, yet remain babes.

I am not better than any lady who gets pregnant outside of marriage, because what they did to get pregnant i once did. But my case is, now that i have knowledge and have received the light of the gospel, now that i know the significance of sex both outside or inside of marriage. Now that i know that my body carries Christ/the Holy Spirit about, Now that i know that my body (the Church) is a bride of Christ and him my groom, means i ought to preserve it, keep it clean for fellowship. I ought to be a living sacrifice, do we still know what that means?

You keep talking about the outcome, which is the pregnancy, but am focus on the act which resulted to it. And, am talking from the perspective of A BELIEVER who shd know better not an unbeliever in church.

I liken this to A BELIEVER who receives salvation, is taught the principles, the rudiments of the kingdom's ethics, culture, citizenship and all, understands them, but while at home with his/her folk, falls back into partaking in their temple worships to idols knowing so well that the food presented to him/her has been offered to idols, not only eats it, but brings it to church and insists that the brethren joins him/her in eating the food.
Even the Bible warns against it.

Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.
1 Corinthians:10:21


In the case of Deut. 22 sir. To fully understand the premise, lets start reading from 21. It'll too long to quote out here.
This is talking about a girl going into marriage as a virgin, ,but is found disvirgined, the investigation then begins as to how it happened.

If she consented to formication both of them shd be stoned to death. If she cried out, but no one heard her, she shd be left alone (but note, no man will marry again). If she cried out and the man discovered, which is rape, the man will not willingly as you put it 'If the man is ready to pay her bride price' the man can not be ready to marry his rape victim, because its a very shameful scenario. He marries her whether he likes her or not. And that's why, no matter what happens, he can not divorce her. He is compelled to marry and keep her. Its not the same with the OP.

The Op is about people consenting to sex and getting pregnant as a result and thrusting their sin before the church for consolidation.

Going by the Deut. 22 you quoted from. Can you imagine a damsel getting pregnant outside of marriage, they kept doing it without being caught, she gets pregnant and has the temerity to go to the Synagogue demanding to be wed? Can she try that? She died the very moment she discovered she was pregnant, not the day she tried that stupidity.

Sir, talking about every single lady being tested for Virginity before being wedded if that's the case, i explained this.

Before i gave my life to Christ, i had lost my virginity. I cried my eyes out when i discovered the sacredness of my Virginity but it was gone, all i can do now is to remain celibate till i marry. But, now that i know what all this is about, if i return to fornication which cuts me both ways, (Shame on me)and gets pregnant in the process, then am making my body which is the Temple of God a den of thieves, Unclean to offer any reasonable sacrifice unto God.

Most of us do not even quite know what a den of thieves means.

And, i said again, that, in my tradition which has nothing to do with Christianity, a girl's bride price is not taken while she's pregnant. No marriage for her until she delivers the child, and when she does that, her bride price will be reduced because she has defiled the sanctity of marriage.

If a lady commits formication, of course no pastor or priest will know, no perimeter to judge that, as not all of us got born again as virgins, (that will be left for God who sees in secret) but getting pregnant and bringing the pregnancy to be wed is an affront.

JMAN05:


Just thinking how that is analogous.

It's not difficult to see the link between my story and a woman denied the right to a church wedding because she's pregnant. Maybe prophet Nathan's narrative to king David may come in aid for you.

JMAN05:


Where does the holy spirit say what you wrote up there?

Asking me where the HOLY SPIRIT said what I claimed is self-deriding.

You may want to turn a blind eye to my scripture submission of Exodus 22 : 16. Where GOD said anyone caught in fornication where the lady isn't married or engaged should be married. This is pivotal to my stance that turning people away from church wedding because the Woman is pregnant is Phareesm and lacking in scriptural backing.

JMAN05:

I don't know why any church would demand a compulsory pregnancy test. What I do know is that some guys are dubious, trying to falsely get consummated.

They must not wed in a church sha.

There're plenty of churches out there that do demand pregnancy test before approval of the church wedding. And this practice is completely beyond their pastoral jurisdiction.

JMAN05:

Ya, men established the so called white wedding. However, there isn't anything wrong in it since it runs by bible principle of what is acceptable to the Lord. That being the case, it is unacceptable to the Lord for a pregnant woman to be wedded in a xten building. It is an abomination.

Meanwhile the John 8 you stated is spurious.

You speak with both sides of your mouth acknowledging church wedding is man-made and has no scriptural backing and then alluding that a pastor/priest can disqualify two single people from getting a church wedding.

There's everything wrong when a church presupposes that the pastor/priest has the power to join a man and a woman as husband and wife;

There's everything's wrong when a pastor / priest hijacks the father's role and plays the role of the parents. That's not the principle of the GOOD SHEPHERD WHO was implored by a man to compel his brother to divide their [father's ] inheritance with him. JESUS replied "Friend, who made me a judge over you to decide such things as that?" (Luke 12: 13-14)

No man was called of GOD to go ye into the world and join people in matrimony.

There's everything wrong, when a church takes a sanctimonious leap of arrogance or pastoral overreach asking people for pregnancy test. It was never GOD's intention for priests to join people in marriage, not even in the era when priests double as communal leaders. It was the GOD-given right of the bride's father to join his daughter to another man in marriage. A preist can then "BLESS" the union.

JMAN05:


Marriage is meant to be done by people who haven't known themselves prior to the wedding. If that has been wrongly done, and it is even clearly evident, why should you bring reproach to Gods name by consummating such couple? Those persons would in fact be disfellowshupped. 1cor 5:11-12

Among JWs, the one who officiates in church wedding is approved by the govt to do so. So the law of the land gave him an authority.

Oh! Wonderful! Glorious! Behold 1 cor 5: 11 -12 indeed! You forgot the same Paul wrote 2 Cor 2: 5-8

But let's re-visit your 1cor 5: 11-12 squarely! Paul proposes disassociation from those who commit sexual sin, greed, idolaters, abusiveness, cheats, and drunks. Not just a poor pregnant unmarried woman. So my dear brother, you must lead us all out of the church including that unmarried pregnant woman.
You can't tell anyone that you have no cheated or abuse someone. So you must as well, like the rest of us be kicked out of the church, stigmatised, and excommunicated. It mustn't be restricted to just the poor unmarried pregnant woman.

And your last sentence which seemed to appraise government interference in church matters is a big shame.

clefstone:
Are u implying that God doesn't forgive a ''redeemed'' christian that fornicates if he/she is truly repentant. If God forgives, who r u to judge

God forgives all sins. I was once a fornicator (i didn't even k ow the wight of this word before) and God forgave me. so yeah God forgives all sins when truly repentant.
lol, you guys and this 'who are you to judge cliché). Do you know what rebuke is? Should Christian leaders rebuke error in Church? You guys keep shouting do not judge because you want to feel comfortable your sins.

The Bible says, if you find your brother in sin and do nothing by way of call them off it, if he dies in his sins, you'll be required to answer as to why you neglected him in his sins, but if you do but he refuse to listen, you are then free from whatever comes on him.

Can i do that to you today and won't be asked not to judge?

The Bible says, do not judge anyone when you are doing the same thing.

Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
Romans:2:1

Listen dear, if we should go by the instruction Apostle Paul gave, any woman who commits this sin, should be shunned. Excommunicated from the fold. Formication is a grave sin, yet you want to imposed it on others and make it right.

Am not pure and holy, but will never justify it when i sin.

If i commit fornication and becomes pregnant, first my father won't give me out in marriage to the same man who got me pregnant, how then can i go to cburch and say wed me?

BTW there are churches that weds pregnant women, i can go over there and wed. I have attended a mass wedding of 8 Couples in the Catholic Church, 5 were obviously very pregnant, included my colleague. Even some pentecostals who are deaperate for members will wed.
Living Faith does Pregnancy text the last week of the wedding. Their doctor does it, not you. Anyone who doesn't want it should change Church.

TheUmbra:


Marriage blessing? What is marriage blessing? Marriage for old couples who didn't get married in the Christian way, even though they were properly married according to tradition?

Or the church denies the intending couple "marriage blessing" until the woman puts to bed?

Which ever way, this is pure pastoral arrogance. While marriage was originated by GOD, church wedding is a man-made act which was born out of man's inclination to always exert control and overstep his bounds.

Scriptural passages are replete with Shepherds and leaders who overstepped their jurisdiction and impose their own will on the people. In CHRIST' s days it was the Pharisees, in Paul's days you have the rampaging Jews who were insistent that gentiles follow all the old testament laws. Paul called them dogs and mutilators.

In the middle age these men hijacked marriage and gave the priest the power to join couples in marriage and conduct the ceremony.

In the 21st century, you find esp pastors of Africa or Africa descent exhibiting an overdose of power-drunkenness, religious imperialism and autocratic dispositions These men never took the path of the humble SHEPHERD. They don't see their services as advisory but compulsory.

And so they don't tell their church members that it's crucial they conduct medical tests for genotype, blood group and pregnancy, and leave the choice to their discretion, rather, they make it compulsory because they know their flock has been deceived into believing the traditional marriage rite hold less significance than a church marriage. So they give their flock conditions including types of hairdos, and makeup restrictions. These are self-righteous prigs who don't even understand the "S" in salvation.

A couple fulfills their traditional matrimonial rites and duly married and the next week they head to the church for church wedding and the pastor rises up in his arrogance and pontificatingly declares "I now declare you man and wife". And so negating the significance of the traditional marriage which has more weight.

If a girl is pregnant and the man responsible for the pregnancy seek to marry her in a church, the pastor does well to marry them. Only a pharisee would find a reason not to and call them sinners.

God ordained marriage not pastors, and God for bits fornication which is sex outside marriage, what has this got to do with the Pharisaical traditions?

Must they even marry in church? They should go and marry traditionally, which won't even happen in my culture.

Syncan:


Is this the right thing to do? Considering that someone needed your input, yet now you leave me to what you see as error.

You Like banter too much. What is your own take?

Syncan:



Hmm...I may have something to say, but firstly, If I may ask Sis, are you open to having a contrary view on a religious subject, based on more exposition or higher enlightenment, or is your view on religious matters a full and final one from the Holy spirit, without the possibility of change?

Which enlightening is higher than the Holy Spirit? What are you talking about?

My view on this is based on what the Holy Spirit says about marriage in the Bible because He created marriage.
Anyways, let's hear you.
Analice here.

clefstone:
I am not God, but the intelligence and insightfulness of your thoughts leave me with no other option than to proclaim u as saved. You are a good person indeed. I am sorry to say it, but what Analice has been posting here reeks of Phariseeism. It's so obvious but she just doesn't know it.

Yeah right, you'd proclaim him saved becos he agrees with your stance on fornication. But, it's okay, we have our lives to live. The scripture is there freely for us to see, abide by or not.

701ecilana
Sorry about the ban.

Why would Pastors and Priests be exempted from this when they're the ones who introduced it to the flock?

Why do most christians, baby christians most especially, fail to see the fact that the perfection of salvation is a process and not something one achieves at the point of repentance? You keep practicing obedience, you struggle with sin and the HOLY SPIRIT helps you as you remain true to you walk in faith. Hence Paul said he's not yet attain perfection but keep striving towards it (Phil 3:12)

The righteous may fall 7 times a day..(Prov 24:16)

And mercy triumphs over judgement (James 2:13b)

What's more important to GOD is spiritual growth and sincerely in our walk with HIM. Not how many times we fall.

Don't lay much hope on Deuteronomy chapters 21 and 22. The first case of a woman who married in deceit. By tricking her husband and the community that she's a virgin. The Mosaic law permits the man who deflowered her to marry her. But the law does not say that fornicators should be stoned to death. But rather if they're caught, the man should marry her. Stoning to death was for those who committed adultery or raped or had sex with an engaged woman. Not for the unmarried and unengaged. You must understand this!

You deliberately avoid Exodus 22 : 16. That's bad of you!


If a church has irrefutable proof of fornication between two members, then by all means they should sanction them. But when two people are coming for marriage and the church is saying "no" because the lady is pregnant is complete foolishness.

701ecilana:

Which enlightening is higher than the Holy Spirit? What are you talking about?

My view on this is based on what the Holy Spirit says about marriage in the Bible because He created marriage.
Anyways, let's hear you.
Analice here.

Have you considered that Theumbra has been backing up his position with scriptures? Why do you take his view as not what the Holy Spirit says about marriage. I don't want to write many things at a time.

Two Passages are very obvious on this, they are yet to be dealt with, neither by you nor the Jehova witness Jman05. These passages are :


And if a man entice a maid that is not betrothed, and lie with her, he shall surely endow her to be his wife. Ex.22:16

If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days. Deut. 22:28-29

These places dealt most closely with what we have on ground, tell us why the church needs to go directly contrary to this scripture, by denying marriage instead of encouraging marriage in this instance.

Syncan:


Have you considered that Theumbra has been backing up his position with scriptures? Why do you take his view as not what the Holy Spirit says about marriage. I don't want to write many things at a time.

Two Passages are very obvious on this, they are yet to be dealt with, neither by you nor the Jehova witness Jman05. These passages are :


And if a man entice a maid that is not betrothed, and lie with her, he shall surely endow her to be his wife. Ex.22:16

If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days. Deut. 22:28-29


These places dealt most closely with what we have on ground, tell us why the church needs to go directly contrary to this scripture, by denying marriage instead of encouraging marriage in this instance.

Deut 22:28 is a case of rape sir.
The Op says, a pregnant girl comes up to be wedded and not a man who rapes a girl and decides to marry her afterwards. As in the case of Scheme and Dina the daughter of Jacob.

Am totally against formication and you guys are trying to twists scriptures to justify it.

TheUmbra:
701ecilana
Sorry about the ban.

Why would Pastors and Priests be exempted from this when they're the ones who introduced it to the flock?

Why do most christians, baby christians most especially, fail to see the fact that the perfection of salvation is a process and not something one achieves at the point of repentance? You keep practicing obedience, you struggle with sin and the HOLY SPIRIT helps you as you remain true to you walk in faith. Hence Paul said he's not yet attain perfection but keep striving towards it (Phil 3:12)

The righteous may fall 7 times a day..(Prov 24:16)

And mercy triumphs over judgement (James 2:13b)

What's more important to GOD is spiritual growth and sincerely in our walk with HIM. Not how many times we fall.

Don't lay much hope on Deuteronomy chapters 21 and 22. The first case of a woman who married in deceit. By tricking her husband and the community that she's a virgin. The Mosaic law permits the man who deflowered her to marry her. But the law does not say that fornicators should be stoned to death. But rather if they're caught, the man should marry her. Stoning to death was for those who committed adultery or raped or had sex with an engaged woman. Not for the unmarried and unengaged. You must understand this!

You deliberately avoid Exodus 22 : 16. That's bad of you!


If a church has irrefutable proof of fornication between two members, then by all means they should sanction them. But when two people are coming for marriage and the church is saying "no" because the lady is pregnant is complete foolishness.

Okay sir.

TheUmbra:
701ecilana
Sorry about the ban.

Why would Pastors and Priests be exempted from this when they're the ones who introduced it to the flock?

Why do most christians, baby christians most especially, fail to see the fact that the perfection of salvation is a process and not something one achieves at the point of repentance? You keep practicing obedience, you struggle with sin and the HOLY SPIRIT helps you as you remain true to you walk in faith. Hence Paul said he's not yet attain perfection but keep striving towards it (Phil 3:12)

The righteous may fall 7 times a day..(Prov 24:16)

And mercy triumphs over judgement (James 2:13b)

What's more important to GOD is spiritual growth and sincerely in our walk with HIM. Not how many times we fall.

Don't lay much hope on Deuteronomy chapters 21 and 22. The first case of a woman who married in deceit. By tricking her husband and the community that she's a virgin. The Mosaic law permits the man who deflowered her to marry her. But the law does not say that fornicators should be stoned to death. But rather if they're caught, the man should marry her. Stoning to death was for those who committed adultery or raped or had sex with an engaged woman. Not for the unmarried and unengaged. You must understand this!

You deliberately avoid Exodus 22 : 16. That's bad of you!


If a church has irrefutable proof of fornication between two members, then by all means they should sanction them. But when two people are coming for marriage and the church is saying "no" because the lady is pregnant is complete foolishness.

And if a man entice a maid that is not betrothed, and lie with her, he shall surely endow her to be his wife.
Exodus:22:16

Bros, i can't see where it says she's pregnant. Okay fine, they marry. No one denies them marriage, but in my culture, as a girl i won't be married off because am pregnant, how then do i get to be wedded in church even if my church allows it? Traditional marriage holds more water as far as Living Faith is concerned, without the consent of the girl's parents, the Church wont consolidate any marriage. How do i get wedded since as a pregnant girl, my father won't accept my bride price?

She shd stay home, be delivered of the baby then marry.

Biko, hapu'm

701ecilana:

And if a man entice a maid that is not betrothed, and lie with her, he shall surely endow her to be his wife.
Exodus:22:16

Bros, i can't see where it says she's pregnant. Okay fine, they marry. No one denies them marriage, but in my culture, as a girl i won't be married off because am pregnant, how then do i get to be wedded in church even if my church allows it? Traditional marriage holds more water as far as Living Faith is concerned, without the consent of the girl's parents, the Church wont consolidate any marriage. How do i get wedded since as a pregnant girl, my father won't accept my bride price?

She shd stay home, be delivered of the baby then marry.

Biko, hapu'm

And don't you know that pregnancy can take place within a day after sex or after fornication?

701ecilana:


Deut 22:28 is a case of rape sir.
The Op says, a pregnant girl comes up to be wedded and not a man who rapes a girl and decides to marry her afterwards. As in the case of Scheme and Dina the daughter of Jacob.

Am totally against formication and you guys are trying to twists scriptures to justify it.

who is justifying fornication here? My dear you are no better that the Pharisees of old. If you lived in Jesus' time you would have accused Jesus of justifying adultery when he refused to condemn the woman caught in adultery

Libo45:
Must the wedding be done in a church? If it's against their laws, honor their laws and jejely go to a court for statutory marriage, simple. We too like stress as Nigerians

Traditional marriage + court wedding will do

701ecilana:

And if a man entice a maid that is not betrothed, and lie with her, he shall surely endow her to be his wife.
Exodus:22:16

Bros, i can't see where it says she's pregnant. Okay fine, they marry. No one denies them marriage, but in my culture, as a girl i won't be married off because am pregnant, how then do i get to be wedded in church even if my church allows it? Traditional marriage holds more water as far as Living Faith is concerned, without the consent of the girl's parents, the Church wont consolidate any marriage. How do i get wedded since as a pregnant girl, my father won't accept my bride price?

She shd stay home, be delivered of the baby then marry.

Biko, hapu'm

why are u bringing your local tradition into this. We are talking Christianity u r talking native culture. I have also observed that you keep trying to justify yourself and your Church. Because u have lost your virginity you conveniently created Analice's law that states that you can do church wedding only if you days of fornication preceeds your day of being born again. Clap for yourself. I put it to you that you are no different from a repentant pregnant single woman.

701ecilana:

Analice got banned for a month for posting off topic.

Pls sir, leave Pastors/Priests out of this. My focus is not on them and how they interpret the scriptures. My focus is on believers who have received salvation, who ought to get transformed and be renewed in their souls and bodies, yet remain babes.

I am not better than any lady who gets pregnant outside of marriage, because what they did to get pregnant i once did. But my case is, now that i have knowledge and have received the light of the gospel, now that i know the significance of sex both outside or inside of marriage. Now that i know that my body carries Christ/the Holy Spirit about, Now that i know that my body (the Church) is a bride of Christ and him my groom, means i ought to preserve it, keep it clean for fellowship. I ought to be a living sacrifice, do we still know what that means?

You keep talking about the outcome, which is the pregnancy, but am focus on the act which resulted to it. And, am talking from the perspective of A BELIEVER who shd know better not an unbeliever in church.

I liken this to A BELIEVER who receives salvation, is taught the principles, the rudiments of the kingdom's ethics, culture, citizenship and all, understands them, but while at home with his/her folk, falls back into partaking in their temple worships to idols knowing so well that the food presented to him/her has been offered to idols, not only eats it, but brings it to church and insists that the brethren joins him/her in eating the food.
Even the Bible warns against it.

Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.
1 Corinthians:10:21


In the case of Deut. 22 sir. To fully understand the premise, lets start reading from 21. It'll too long to quote out here.
This is talking about a girl going into marriage as a virgin, ,but is found disvirgined, the investigation then begins as to how it happened.

If she consented to formication both of them shd be stoned to death. If she cried out, but no one heard her, she shd be left alone (but note, no man will marry again). If she cried out and the man discovered, which is rape, the man will not willingly as you put it 'If the man is ready to pay her bride price' the man can not be ready to marry his rape victim, because its a very shameful scenario. He marries her whether he likes her or not. And that's why, no matter what happens, he can not divorce her. He is compelled to marry and keep her. Its not the same with the OP.

The Op is about people consenting to sex and getting pregnant as a result and thrusting their sin before the church for consolidation.

Going by the Deut. 22 you quoted from. Can you imagine a damsel getting pregnant outside of marriage, they kept doing it without being caught, she gets pregnant and has the temerity to go to the Synagogue demanding to be wed? Can she try that? She died the very moment she discovered she was pregnant, not the day she tried that stupidity.

Sir, talking about every single lady being tested for Virginity before being wedded if that's the case, i explained this.

Before i gave my life to Christ, i had lost my virginity. I cried my eyes out when i discovered the sacredness of my Virginity but it was gone, all i can do now is to remain celibate till i marry. But, now that i know what all this is about, if i return to fornication which cuts me both ways, (Shame on me)and gets pregnant in the process, then am making my body which is the Temple of God a den of thieves, Unclean to offer any reasonable sacrifice unto God.

Most of us do not even quite know what a den of thieves means.

And, i said again, that, in my tradition which has nothing to do with Christianity, a girl's bride price is not taken while she's pregnant. No marriage for her until she delivers the child, and when she does that, her bride price will be reduced because she has defiled the sanctity of marriage.

If a lady commits formication, of course no pastor or priest will know, no perimeter to judge that, as not all of us got born again as virgins, (that will be left for God who sees in secret) but getting pregnant and bringing the pregnancy to be wed is an affront.

Are u implying that once a person becomes 'born again' the grace of God's mercy upon them ceases that they cannot be forgiven when they sin?