frank317:


Lol...what are u afraid of.

U are asking me to observe like ur are doing anything brilliant. You are repeating the same question even after she answered u in plain language.

And u can't even seen that u have bored the poor girl out... Lol@observe... U de do magic?

Since you have decided to become her defendant and refuse to observe instead, let's continue then. Now, tell me the part of Jesus' death that isn't clear to you and I'll make it clear. I wanted her to ask a direct question so I can give a direct answer.

Bolaji21:

Since you have decided to become her defendant and refuse to observe instead, let's continue then. Now, tell me the part of Jesus' death that isn't clear to you and I'll make it clear. I wanted her to ask a direct question so I can give a direct answer.

Everything... Just everything... And well, it's all clear but does not make sense.

-God created angels, they had issues with him and this led to Lucifer, sin and demons.
-God created man, and had issues with man and this led to death.
-Sin got too much and he decided to destroy man, selecting 8 (supposedly good ones) yet after annihilation of the remaining, sin continue from the so called selected ones.
-he sent Jesus which is himself to die for man kind... Sin still abounds...how meaningless can it get?
All I see is the almighty failing in every project he does.

frank317:


Everything... Just everything... And well, it's all clear but does not make sense.

-God created angels, they had issues with him and this led to Lucifer, sin and demons.
-God created man, and had issues with man and this led to death.
-Sin got too much and he decided to destroy man, selecting 8 (supposedly good ones) yet after annihilation of the remaining, sin continue from the so called selected ones.
-he sent Jesus which is himself to die for man kind... Sin still abounds...how meaningless can it get?
All I see is the almighty failing in every project he does.

Thanks for your civil response. Shall we continue each point one after the other tomorrow?

Bolaji21:

Thanks for your civil response. Shall we continue each point one after the other tomorrow?

Sure

frank317:

-God created angels, they had issues with him and this led to Lucifer, sin and demons.

God created everything (all spirit beings in this case). He created them with free will so they can serve him by their own free will, not because they were compelled to do so or they have no alternatives. God's idea of Kingdom is a kingdom of King and Kings, not king and subjects. He wants to be a king of Kings, not king of subjects.

They (spirit beings) existed and served God for aeons. Then one of them felt he has earned the right to rule the kingdom, instead of the creator ruling. He thought of an insurrection and knew he needed followers to do that. He managed to convince 1/3 of the angelic population.

They began the insurrection as planned. God didn't stampede them. Another created being (Michael) led the remaining 2/3 to defeat this 1/3 rebels.
As we all know, a kingdom divided against itself cannot stand. The rebels were stripped off everything that glorifies them and were exiled.

In my own opinion, this is justice and love.
You see failure, but I don't think that's correct. We might have been able to argue it as failure if 2/3 of the angels decided to rebel - then we can say maybe God must have been a bad King.

If God had created these brings WITHOUT FREE WILL and they still rebelled, then God must have been a poor creator. Because, if a car manufacturer manufactures a non-automatic car and the car begins to control itself at some point, then the blame goes to the manufacturer.

But these beings were created with FREE WILL. Are we clear on that sir?

Bolaji21:

God created everything (all spirit beings in this case). He created them with free will so they can serve him by their own free will, not because they were compelled to do so or they have no alternatives. God's idea of Kingdom is a kingdom of King and Kings, not king and subjects. He wants to be a king of Kings, not king of subjects.

If God wants a kingdom there is kings and kings.. he should just create one already with or without free will.
Let me ask... Must free will be packaged with sin/evil?
If you get heaven at last will u have free will? Will there also be possibility of one sinning? If no, why didn't God start with that instead of all these drama that is not going well with humans, his beloveth. Now he got me doubting him, is that good?

They (spirit beings) existed and served God for aeons. Then one of them felt he has earned the right to rule the kingdom, instead of the creator ruling. He thought of an insurrection and knew he needed followers to do that. He managed to convince 1/3 of the angelic population.

They began the insurrection as planned. God didn't stampede them. Another created being (Michael) led the remaining 2/3 to defeat this 1/3 rebels.
As we all know, a kingdom divided against itself cannot stand. The rebels were stripped off everything that glorifies them and were exiled.

Did God create angels and have them free will that came with package ability to sin?
If God has no evil in him how did he create begins with ability to sin?
If I as a scientist does not have the intelligence to create a flying car, can any car I create ever just develop the ability to fly?
How in the world did an angel get the guts to challenge his maker? What did the maker do wrong?

In my own opinion, this is justice and love.
You see failure, but I don't think that's correct. We might have been able to argue it as failure if 2/3 of the angels decided to rebel - then we can say maybe God must have been a bad King.

I think he is a bad king after much analysis. I see no justice and love... He must have done something wrong... But then, this is just man made story, that's why there are so many loopholes.

If God had created these brings WITHOUT FREE WILL and they still rebelled, then God must have been a poor creator. Because, if a car manufacturer manufactures a non-automatic car and the car begins to control itself at some point, then the blame goes to the manufacturer.

But these beings were created with FREE WILL. Are we clear on that sir?

Does free will come with evil or sin? If so why? Can't people be free without being evil?

frank317:

If God wants a kingdom there is kings and kings.. he should just create one already with or without free will.
Let me ask... Must free will be packaged with sin/evil?
If you get heaven at last will u have free will? Will there also be possibility of one sinning? If no, why didn't God start with that instead of all these drama that is not going well with humans, his beloveth. Now he got me doubting him, is that good?

Free will is not packaged with evil/sin. But the creature has the ability to do the opposite of what the creator wants. If the creature can't, then that's not free will.

frank317:

Did God create angels and have them free will that came with package ability to sin?
If God has no evil in him how did he create begins with ability to sin?
If I as a scientist does not have the intelligence to create a flying car, can any car I create ever just develop the ability to fly?
How in the world did an angel get the guts to challenge his maker? What did the maker do wrong?

God created EVERYTHING. Creatures earned the ability to sin when they have free will. I don't know your definition of free will if there's no possibility of rebellion. Free will is the ability to do as you please, whether for or against your creator. If that's not the definition, then it's no longer free will but CONTROLLED WILL.

frank317:

I think he is a bad king after much analysis. I see no justice and love... He must have done something wrong... But then, this is just man made story, that's why there are so many loopholes.

You think he must have done something wrong because of your disposition towards him.

frank317:

Does free will come with evil or sin? If so why? Can't people be free without being evil?

As I've stated earlier, free will comes with the ability to act for or against the creator. If that is not a possibility, then it's not free will but CONTROLLED/REGULATED WILL.

frank317:


Everything... Just everything... And well, it's all clear but does not make sense.

-God created angels, they had issues with him and this led to Lucifer, sin and demons.
-God created man, and had issues with man and this led to death.
-Sin got too much and he decided to destroy man, selecting 8 (supposedly good ones) yet after annihilation of the remaining, sin continue from the so called selected ones.
-he sent Jesus which is himself to die for man kind... Sin still abounds...how meaningless can it get?
All I see is the almighty failing in every project he does.

Religion- at least the christian religion - is just a poor apology for all the mistakes and errors of the Bible god.

Mujtahida:

Religion- at least the christian religion - is just a poor apology for all the mistakes and errors of the Bible god.

The fact that quantum physics doesn't make sense to me as an accountant doesn't mean quantum physics doesn't make sense.
Point of correction, there's just one God and the Bible bears witness of Him.

Instead of me ranting that quantum physics doesn't make (just like some students do nowadays), the right thing to do is to get someone to help me understand, if I want to understand, or I just walk away, if I don't want to understand.

You might do well to share your problems with christianity here, so you can be helped.

Bolaji21:

The fact that quantum physics doesn't make sense to me as an accountant doesn't mean quantum physics doesn't make sense.
Point of correction, there's just one God and the Bible bears witness of Him.

Instead of me ranting that quantum physics doesn't make (just like some students do nowadays), the right thing to do is to get someone to help me understand, if I want to understand, or I just walk away, if I don't want to understand.

You might do well to share your problems with christianity here, so you can be helped.

I detest Christianity (not Christians) not because I don't understand it as you wrongly presume. I detest it precisely because I understand it. I consider the fact that the Bible god(whom I regard as an impostor, a fiction divinized and given sacredness and an idol) 'spoke' in the Bible as the prime evidence that that god is different from the God who created the universe and essentially a false god.
You can't help me believe and live a lie. I will rather die and go to hell than believe in Christianity and it's dead, abstract, twisted, sick and sickening idol of a god

Bolaji21:

Free will is not packaged with evil/sin. But the creature has the ability to do the opposite of what the creator wants. If the creature can't, then that's not free will.

Is this thing ( I mean the ability to do the opposite of what the creator wants) not part of their creator's creation? If not, where did it came from? Is it packaged with free will or not?

God created EVERYTHING. Creatures earned the ability to sin when they have free will. I don't know your definition of free will if there's no possibility of rebellion. Free will is the ability to do as you please, whether for or against your creator. If that's not the definition, then it's no longer free will but CONTROLLED WILL.

So that means freewill comes with the ability to do the opposite of what the creator want. So that means the creator created man and gave him freewill, which is packaged with the ability to do the opposite of what the creator wants, which implies sinning?... Did the creator know the consequence of this ability or not? If he knew... What's the point, knowing that people like me will eventually doubt his existence.

You think he must have done something wrong because of your disposition towards him.

Yes. My disposition towards him is as a result of my inability to make sense of him being the all seeing yet acting like he does not see and living by trial and error like one who is not all seeing.
Afterall, he gave me the brain reason this way.

As I've stated earlier, free will comes with the ability to act for or against the creator. If that is not a possibility, then it's not free will but CONTROLLED/REGULATED WILL.

When u get to heaven, will u have free will? Will u have the ability to do the opposite of what the creator wants? Does it mean this circle will continue?
Further, so this opposite is evil/sin...that means while giving us free will, he instills in us the ability to sin? Does this means that the creator giving us free will , imply giving us the chance to do the opposite of what he wants? Does this opposite means sin? Are saying he therefore gave us free will, which is the ability to sin? What then was he expecting when he gave us the ability to sin?

Mujtahida:

I detest Christianity (not Christians) not because I don't understand it as you wrongly presume. I detest it precisely because I understand it. I consider the fact that the Bible god(whom I regard as an impostor, a fiction divinized and given sacredness and an idol) 'spoke' in the Bible as the prime evidence that that god is different from the God who created the universe and essentially a false god.
You can't help me believe and live a lie. I will rather die and go to hell than believe in Christianity and it's dead, abstract, twisted, sick and sickening idol of a god

I stand by my word, you don't understand Christianity, you think you do. And there's nothing like Bible god. There's just one God and the Holy Bible bears witness to this God.

Since you have decided your own path, it's your choice. You're not ready to be helped.

But I must say, God loves you and He's more than willing to accept you anytime you turn back to him, even after you've said all these about Him.
In case you find yourself in that position one day, just say Lord I confess that I'm a sinner, please forgive me all my sins. I accept you as my lord and personal saviour.

Bolaji21:

I stand by my word, you don't understand Christianity, you think you do. And there's nothing like Bible god. There's just one God and the Holy Bible bears witness to this God.

Since you have decided your own path, it's your choice. You're not ready to be helped.

But I must say, God loves you and He's more than willing to accept you anytime you turn back to him, even after you've said all these about Him.
In case you find yourself in that position one day, just say Lord I confess that I'm a sinner, please forgive me all my sins. I accept you as my lord and personal saviour.

You have a good heart. Remain blessed.

frank317:

Is this thing ( I mean the ability to do the opposite of what the creator wants) not part of their creator's creation? If not, where did it came from? Is it packaged with free will or not?

It seems you're trying to not get the point. The ability to do the opposite of what the creator wants is part of free will.
If you're provided with just rice, you'll keep eating rice. You're not exercising your will here, cos you have no options to choose from.
But if we provide beans and you still keep eating rice, then we can say you like rice because you have willingly chosen rice. The beans and rice was provided. You should get the point now.

frank317:

So that means freewill comes with the ability to do the opposite of what the creator want.

frank317:

So that means the creator created man and gave him freewill, which is packaged with the ability to do the opposite of what the creator wants, which implies sinning?...

Yes.

frank317:

Did the creator know the consequence of this ability or not?

Yes he knew (foreknowledge)

frank317:

If he knew... What's the point, knowing that people like me will eventually doubt his existence.

The point is to show that his sovereignty is not threatened by the the ability of his creatures to rebel against him. So, every creature obeys him not because it's compelled to do so or cannot do otherwise, but because he loves the creator and WANTS to serve Him

frank317:

My disposition towards him is as a result of my inability to make sense of him being the all seeing yet acting like he does not see and living by trial and error like one who is not all seeing.
Afterall, he gave me the brain reason this way.

You should be grateful to him that he gave you the ability to think the way you think and not think like an animal (no insult intended please).
He's not living by trial and error. He's omniscient.

frank317:

When u get to heaven, will u have free will?

My getting to heaven will be as a result of my exercising my will to serve Him while in this mortal body.

frank317:

Will u have the ability to do the opposite of what the creator wants?

Yes.

frank317:

Does it mean this circle will continue?

No. When Satan and his cohorts rebelled aeons ago, no angel has rebelled since then. Was their freewill taken away after then? No.

frank317:

Further, so this opposite is evil/sin...that means while giving us free will, he instills in us the ability to sin?

If that's how you chose to understand it, Yes.

frank317:

Does this means that the creator giving us free will , imply giving us the chance to do the opposite of what he wants? Does this opposite means sin?

frank317:

Are saying he therefore gave us free will, which is the ability to sin? What then was he expecting when he gave us the ability to sin?

He expected us to make the right choice. Even when that freedom of choice has been abused, it's still there till today. That's why some some of us can choose to serve God and people like you can choose not to serve God.

I serve God not because of the fear of hell. If there was no hell, I'll still serve Him. And it's a choice I've made and don't intend to change in the future or eternity to come, come what may.

Mujtahida:
You have a good heart. Remain blessed.

You too

Bolaji21:

It seems you're trying to not get the point. The ability to do the opposite of what the creator wants is part of free will.
If you're provided with just rice, you'll keep eating rice. You're not exercising your will here, cos you have no options to choose from.
But if we provide beans and you still keep eating rice, then we can say you like rice because you have willingly chosen rice. The beans and rice was provided. You should get the point now.

It keeps getting worst... So he gave us option b, which is the ability to sin and called it free will. Let me ask u... Must free will go with sin? Couldn't we have had free will without the ability to sin?
Free will in this instance is a curse. It does not favour more than 3/4 of his Creations... What's the point?

Yes he knew (foreknowledge)

You said it, but his actions does not sound like one who has foreknowledge. He should have known giving humans free will will bring a lot of suffering... Perhaps that was his original plan?

The point is to show that his sovereignty is not threatened by the the ability of his creatures to rebel against him. So, every creature obeys him not because it's compelled to do so or cannot do otherwise, but because he loves the creator and WANTS to serve Him

To show who? Who exactly is he trying to please?
I'd rather he did it all to massage his own ego. He needs obedience from his creations and gave them free will that would lead to thousand of deaths and suffering and hell as their final destination.

You should be grateful to him that he gave you the ability to think the way you think and not think like an animal (no insult intended please).
He's not living by trial and error. He's omniscient.

Here is nothing to be grateful for. Are animals complaining that they hate being animas? If he had created me without free will,what would I have lost? Wouldn't I have happily lived my no free wil life?
Again, couldn't there have been freewill with out the ability to sin?
It's trial and error in my opinion... If not why destroy humans with water and later send Ur son to come die...why try to get it right when he has foreknowledge... Why not get it right from the beginning.

No. When Satan and his cohorts rebelled aeons ago, no angel has rebelled since then. Was their freewill taken away after then? No.

Isn't this what makes the story fishy. Only in the Bible, that's where it all happened.
And no, the fact that angels have not sinned against does not mean that they would never sin.. afterall u admitted that angels have sinned before.... Eternity is too long to think sin would never reoccur, i mean, given what happened in the past, don't u think?

If that's how you chose to understand it, Yes.

He gave us the ability to sin... And had foreknowledge that we will sin... Yet... Oga, watin u de talk self.

He expected us to make the right choice. Even when that freedom of choice has been abused, it's still there till today. That's why some some of us can choose to serve God and people like you can choose not to serve God.

I serve God not because of the fear of hell. If there was no hell, I'll still serve Him. And it's a choice I've made and don't intend to change in the future or eternity to come, come what may.

How can he expect us to make the right choice when he gave us that ability to sin and had the foreknowledge that we will sin... If u have foreknowledge that if u leave ur 3years old the freedom to play on ur dining table he will fall and break his leg. You know this for sure. Will u leave him to freely play on the table while u expect him not to fall?
How can u expect him not to fall when u already know he will fall?

frank317:

It keeps getting worst... So he gave us option b, which is the ability to sin and called it free will. Let me ask u... Must free will go with sin? Couldn't we have had free will without the ability to sin?
Free will in this instance is a curse. It does not favour more than 3/4 of his Creations... What's the point?

Ability to choose between right and wrong. You say it's a curse, I say it isn't.

You're not getting my point obviously. If there's no tendency to act against the creator, then it's not free will and that's actually an act of insecurity by the creator.

frank317:

You said it, but his actions does not sound like one who has foreknowledge. He should have known giving humans free will will bring a lot of suffering... Perhaps that was his original plan?

Foreknowledge doesn't mean foreplanning. There's a difference between knowing something will happen and planning FOR something to happen.

frank317:

To show who? Who exactly is he trying to please?
I'd rather he did it all to massage his own ego. He needs obedience from his creations and gave them free will that would lead to thousand of deaths and suffering and hell as their final destination.

All creatures are responsible for the choices they make.

frank317:

Here is nothing to be grateful for. Are animals complaining that they hate being animas? If he had created me without free will,what would I have lost? Wouldn't I have happily lived my no free wil life?
Again, couldn't there have been freewill with out the ability to sin?

Would you prefer to be an animal then? No insult intended please.

frank317:

It's trial and error in my opinion... If not why destroy humans with water and later send Ur son to come die...why try to get it right when he has foreknowledge... Why not get it right from the beginning.

The coming of His Son would have been useless if there wasn't a deluge then. The human gene was corrupted then. Only the pure breed were preserved.

frank317:

Isn't this what makes the story fishy. Only in the Bible, that's where it all happened.

It happened in history and the Bible recorded it.

frank317:

And no, the fact that angels have not sinned against does not mean that they would never sin.. afterall u admitted that angels have sinned before.... Eternity is too long to think sin would never reoccur, i mean, given what happened in the past, don't u think?

It can't happen again. How do I know? The Bible also records a beautiful happy ending. Don't forget, God is omniscient.

frank317:

He gave us the ability to sin... And had foreknowledge that we will sin... Yet... Oga, watin u de talk self.

We've gone over this a million times.

frank317:

How can he expect us to make the right choice when he gave us that ability to sin and had the foreknowledge that we will sin... If u have foreknowledge that if u leave ur 3years old the freedom to play on ur dining table he will fall and break his leg. You know this for sure. Will u leave him to freely play on the table while u expect him not to fall?
How can u expect him not to fall when u already know he will fall?

The example doesn't fit. I prefer you replace 3 with 30 and try to see if the example fits.

Bolaji21:

Ability to choose between right and wrong. You say it's a curse, I say it isn't.

Wow, how in the world is ur world view? How is it not a curse? It led to death, pain, hate, hell, fear, disobedience, disorganisation of even The all seeing God's plan? It led to the death of Christ, even the love we claim to give us out of selfish interest... Pls how is it not a curse?

You're not getting my point obviously. If there's no tendency to act against the creator, then it's not free will and that's actually an act of insecurity by the creator.

A very good and loving creator decided to create man, gave then free will, which is the ability to act against him or do wrong, something he actually foresaw man doing. Yet when man act out the ability he gave him, which he already saw, he get angry and even gets into destruction mode. He goes into the drama of trying to rescue man.. pls tell me another story.

Foreknowledge doesn't mean foreplanning. There's a difference between knowing something will happen and planning FOR something to happen.

But you would agree with me that foreknowledge without foreplanning is foolishness? It keeps getting worst.
In my opinion I think u guys have succeeded in making Gods foreknowledge ability a very useless one. This is what happens when u try to explain the unexplainable.

All creatures are responsible for the choices they make.

And what about the person who assigned the choices to them knowing it's devastating effects, and he did this without their consent.
Besides this did not answer the point I raised.
I asked u who is he trying to show his sovereignty? Who is he trying to please?
Isn't it petty that the almighty God created man just to show his sovereignty to his Creations? He sounds bored to me.

Would you prefer to be an animal then? No insult intended please.

Lets say there were being slightly above humans, would u prefer to be that being rather than being a human being?
You are only glad u are a human becasue that's what u actually are
Trust me, if u were chicken u will be glad u are a chicken.
In all honesty, sometimes I wish I have more sophisticated abilities like disappearing, flying or reading the mind.
If God had made me an animal, a being with no freewill or a being with superhuman abilities I will still live with however he created me just I am living with what I am now. In essence if I have no free will or if I was an animated, I would still have nothing to lose.

The coming of His Son would have been useless if there wasn't a deluge then. The human gene was corrupted then. Only the pure breed were preserved. ,

Lol now u are talking like the corruption of man was a surprise to God...well I have already shown u why I think this mission was pointless and avoidable.

It happened in history and the Bible recorded it.

I am not sure of this... I am yet to see proof. But u are free to believe anything... In my opinion it is just a Jewish folk tale.

It can't happen again. How do I know? The Bible also records a beautiful happy ending. Don't forget, God is omniscient.

U can say that, but if he can fail in almost three projects, he can fail again.
Project angel... Failure
Project man... Failure
Project Noah... Failure
Project Jesus... Millions still going to hell, devil is still ruling
I really cannot trust him with project hevean.

The example doesn't fit. I prefer you replace 3 with 30 and try to see if the example fits.

Good,
If u are a 65 years old man with a 30years old son. You know that if he gets married to the girl he is dating... If he freely chooses to marry her, he will definitely cheat on her and this will lead to a fight where she will make him blind forever.
As a father who has foreknowledge, you know this already... Would u expect him not to cheat on his wife when he gets married?
Wouldn't the best to do be make alternative arrangements that would prevent the catastrophy? Would u sit down and watch destroy himself while u expect him to do what u already know he wouldn't do?
Again if at the end of the day u can't do anything about it, then ur foreknowledge ability is useless, don't u think?

frank317:

Wow, how in the world is ur world view? How is it not a curse? It led to death, pain, hate, hell, fear, disobedience, disorganisation of even The all seeing God's plan? It led to the death of Christ, even the love we claim to give us out of selfish interest... Pls how is it not a curse?

Since the creature has the ability to exist without coordination from the creator, the creature is responsible for his actions. Man is responsible for the woes you listed up there. Or is the inventor of television to blame for the port that's aired on it 24/7? Is the inventor of gun powder to blame for word war 1&2? Sure you can't blame this people.

frank317:

A very good and loving creator decided to create man, gave then free will, which is the ability to act against him or do wrong, something he actually foresaw man doing. Yet when man act out the ability he gave him, which he already saw, he get angry and even gets into destruction mode. He goes into the drama of trying to rescue man.. pls tell me another story.

You've decided to see free will as ability to rebel. That's half truth. I can't help you with that.

frank317:

Buy would agree with me that foreknowledge without foreplanning is foolishness? It keeps getting worst.
In my opinion I think u guys have succeeded in making Gods foreknowledge ability a very useless one. This is what happens when u try to explain the unexplainable.

I've not said God didn't plan about the foreknowledge he had. That's why there was a Jesus to die for the redemption of Man. The book of revelation documents the plan of God based on his foreknowledge of the entirety of time.
It's not that hard to comprehend if you want to.

frank317:

And what about the person who assigned the choices to them knowing it's devastating effects, and he did this without their consent.

A creator is supposed to take permission from a creature before he creates that creature? Does that even make logical sense?

frank317:

Besides this did not answer the point I raised.
I asked u who is he trying to show his sovereignty? Who is he trying to please?

God is the great Monarch of the Universe. By that, he's not answerable to anyone. However, he's not a tyrant. All his creatures must always see that he's just.

frank317:

Isn't it petty that the almighty God created man just to show his sovereignty to his Creations? He sounds bored to me.

All things (including man) were created for His pleasure. Man was not created to showoff to or please the heavenly beings already in existence. But Man was created for the pleasure of God. It's that simple.

frank317:

Lets say there were being slightly above humans, would u prefer to be that being rather than being a human being?
You are only glad u are a human becasue that's what u actually are

I'm glad I'm a Man. If I were to chose again and again (though it's not real), I'll choose to be a man. You may not understand why though.




Trust me, if u were chicken u will be glad u are a chicken.
In all honesty, sometimes I wish I have more sophisticated abilities like disappearing, flying or reading the mind.
If God had made me an animal, a being with no freewill or a being with superhuman abilities I will still live with however he created me just I am living with what I am now. In essence if I have no free will or if I was an animated, I would still have nothing to lose. [/quote]
Unfortunately, you're created and the creator decides what to create.

frank317:

Lol now u are talking like the corruption of man was a surprise to God...well I have already shown u why I think this mission was pointless and avoidable.

The corruption of Man didn't come as a surprise to the Omniscient God. We've already gone past that.

frank317:

I am not sure of this... I am yet to see proof. But u are free to believe anything... In my opinion it is just a Jewish folk tale.

Doesn't that sound like you got no other counter-argument?

frank317:

U can say that, but if he can fail in almost three projects, he can fail again.
Project angel... Failure
Project man... Failure
Project Noah... Failure
Project Jesus... Millions still going to hell, devil is still ruling
I really cannot trust him with project hevean.

You see it as failure, I see it as permitting some things to happen. An omniscient and omnipotent God cannot fail.

frank317:

Good,
If u are a 65 years old man with a 30years old son. You know that if he gets married to the girl he is dating... If he freely chooses to marry her, he will definitely cheat on her and this will lead to a fight where she will make him blind forever.
As a father who has foreknowledge, you know this already... Would u expect him not to cheat on his wife when he gets married?

I'd expect him to go by my recommendation and choose wisely. But I won't take his freedom of choice away.

frank317:

Wouldn't the best to do be make alternative arrangements that would prevent the catastrophy?

Well, God made an arrangement for every thing. That's why there was Jesus to die.

frank317:

Would u sit down and watch destroy himself while u expect him to do what u already know he wouldn't do?
Again if at the end of the day u can't do anything about it, then ur foreknowledge ability is useless, don't u think?

I'd forewarn him.
Then I'll watch and let him use his will first (justice). If I don't, then I'm being a bad father by taking away his freedom in the name of protection.
But I'll make arrangements to salvage the situation when he makes the wrong choice (love).

Bolaji21:

Since the creature has the ability to exist without coordination from the creator, the creature is responsible for his actions. Man is responsible for the woes you listed up there. Or is the inventor of television to blame for the port that's aired on it 24/7? Is the inventor of gun powder to blame for word war 1&2? Sure you can't blame this people.

I have never argued that man is not responsible for his actions... I am aware of that even without believing in any God. I am trying to let you know that bringing God into the picture makes is all complex. Dont ever compare man creating inanimate objects with God creating humans with emotions.
U accept that God was kind enough not to create us like robot... yet u compare us with robotic creatures like TV or Guns... if God created humans with ability to do things on their own... he should have taken care of the consequences of this free will before embarking on this project which had led man to making nonsense of his plans.
Trust me if the man that created guns had the ability to create life into guns, the he also shares responsibility for what the gun he gave live does.

You've decided to see free will as ability to rebel. That's half truth. I can't help you with that.

I have shown you why i think your creations stories are ridiculous... telling me it is the truth is inconsequential to me. If ridiculous meaningless stories are truth to you... Then I think your sanity needs to be questioned (no insult intended)

I've not said God didn't plan about the foreknowledge he had. That's why there was a Jesus to die for the redemption of Man. The book of revelation documents the plan of God based on his foreknowledge of the entirety of time.
It's not that hard to comprehend if you want to.

Now you are saying he foreplanned? was destroying man in Noah's time a foreplan?
Well, if he foreplanned, the world I am seeing today, does not look like any almighty foreplanned anything good. all i see is random coincidence.
Leave revelation which you cant even be sure of.. look around you... different religions, different christian doctrines, child abuse, pain... are they sign of foreplan by almighty creator... again, if he planned well, there wouldnt be need to wait for revelation... people dies everyday for Christ sake, isnt revelation meaningless to them?

A creator is supposed to take permission from a creature before he creates that creature? Does that even make logical sense?

yes, especially when he plans not to take responsibility for the choice he gave us.

God is the great Monarch of the Universe. By that, he's not answerable to anyone. However, he's not a tyrant. All his creatures must always see that he's just.

ok fair enough, but i am yet to relate with this.

All things (including man) were created for His pleasure. Man was not created to showoff to or please the heavenly beings already in existence. But Man was created for the pleasure of God. It's that simple.

lol... for his pleasure u said... death, pain, hell, his disorganized plan... all for his pleasure. Oga please go get your facts right. You cannot be blowing hot and cold at the same time. if i may ask, whats ur idea for God's pleasure? destroying of millions in Noah's time? is that pleasure?

I'm glad I'm a Man. If I were to chose again and again (though it's not real), I'll choose to be a man. You may not understand why though.

Isnt that what we are saying, we were created to be man without our choice... we dont even have the choice of the family we were born into. Well, if I there was a supersonic man in existence somewhere.. i would choose that if I have a choice.

The corruption of Man didn't come as a surprise to the Omniscient God. We've already gone past that.

then he should stop acting all surprised and stop expecting to act in another way when he knows they will act in the other way.

Doesn't that sound like you got no other counter-argument?

This is a matter of opinion. The bible is not a historical book... most of the events therein are just magical stories that are not documented anywhere else. Please if you have other historical books that correlates with the bible or that correlates with Angels fighting war with God in hevean, feel free to share them.

You see it as failure, I see it as permitting some things to happen. An omniscient and omnipotent God cannot fail.

permitting devil to rebel against him and figthing him in return? permitting sin to full the world then destroying man afterall? are u even listening to yourself?
well, what am I even saying, are u not the one who said its all for his pleasure?

I'd expect him to go by my recommendation and choose wisely. But I won't take his freedom of choice away.

Choose wisely and go after going by your recommendation to arrive at an unknown outcome? I guess in this case his had no foreknowldge of what his action might be right

Wouldn't the best to do be make alternative arrangements that would prevent the catastrophy?
Well, God made an arrangement for every thing. That's why there was Jesus to die.

I guess once Jesus Died God foreknowing abilities stopped working? How did he even arrive at sending Jesus to die with all the forknowledge he had... where did it fail him that he had to make things better?
how can he be repairing things he watched spoiling?

Then I'll watch and let him use his will first (justice). If I don't, then I'm being a bad father by taking away his freedom in the name of protection.
But I'll make arrangements to salvage the situation when he makes the wrong choice (love).

so to you the child's freedom is better than his protection? You'd rather watch your child destroy himself with freedom than take away his freedom and protect me. Now isnt this where your God is getting it wrong?
He watches a little girl get molested and says... "If I protect her, that mean I have taken away her freedom.., no, let her have her freedom and suffer."
Oga, enjoy in worshiping a monster.

frank317:

I have never argued that man is not responsible for his actions... I am aware of that even without believing in any God. I am trying to let you know that bringing God into the picture makes is all complex. Dont ever compare man creating inanimate objects with God creating humans with emotions.

God created man and mankind is responsible for the state of the world. If it's comforting for you to blame God for every evil, I won't try to change you.

frank317:

U accept that God was kind enough not to create us like robot... yet u compare us with robotic creatures like TV or Guns... if God created humans with ability to do things on their own... he should have taken care of the consequences of this free will before embarking on this project which had led man to making nonsense of his plans.

You mean like making sure there are no raw materials to make gun powder, right?

frank317:

Trust me if the man that created guns had the ability to create life into guns, the he also shares responsibility for what the gun he gave live does.

That's weird. I never got the news that the Chinese that invented gunpowder have been sued to court for causing world War 1&2.

frank317:

I have shown you why i think your creations stories are ridiculous... telling me it is the truth is inconsequential to me.

No you haven't. Please do.

frank317:

If ridiculous meaningless stories are truth to you... Then I think your sanity needs to be questioned (no insult intended)

Choosing what and what not believe has nothing has to do with sanity, my brother. Some parts of the Southwest here still believe their forefather fell from the sky with chains.

frank317:

Now you are saying he foreplanned? was destroying man in Noah's time a foreplan?
Well, if he foreplanned, the world I am seeing today, does not look like any almighty foreplanned anything good. all i see is random coincidence.

The higher you are, the better you see. You are not God, so you can't see like Him.

frank317:

Leave revelation which you cant even be sure of..

Why should we?

frank317:

look around you... different religions, different christian doctrines, child abuse, pain... are they sign of foreplan by almighty creator... again, if he planned well, there wouldnt be need to wait for revelation... people dies everyday for Christ sake, isnt revelation meaningless to them?

You don't bear these people in mind as much as their creator do. And he didn't put them in that state, Satan and mankind in agreement are the cause. You don't need to drag God into it just to suite yourself.

frank317:

yes, especially when he plans not to take responsibility for the choice he gave us.
[/b]
Seun is responsible for your posts here, right?


[quote author=frank317 post=59936741]
ok fair enough, but i am yet to relate with this.

Read it again.

frank317:

lol... for his pleasure u said... death, pain, hell, his disorganized plan... all for his pleasure.

His plan is disorganised even to Satan himself
That's why he always walk right into His majesty's plan over and over again.

frank317:

Oga please go get your facts right. You cannot be blowing hot and cold at the same time. if i may ask, whats ur idea for God's pleasure? destroying of millions in Noah's time? is that pleasure?

You forgotten Satan is in the equation.

frank317:

Isnt that what we are saying, we were created to be man without our choice... we dont even have the choice of the family we were born into. Well, if I there was a supersonic man in existence somewhere.. i would choose that if I have a choice.

You were to be created first and asked which family you want to be born through, then you're recreated into that family. Is that what you're suggesting?

frank317:

then he should stop acting all surprised and stop expecting to act in another way when he knows they will act in the other way.

He's the King of the Universe. You can't change that, you have to deal with it.

frank317:

This is a matter of opinion. The bible is not a historical book... most of the events therein are just magical stories that are not documented anywhere else. Please if you have other historical books that correlates with the bible or that correlates with Angels fighting war with God in hevean, feel free to share them.

That's not a valid point. The Bible has been proven several times to be accurate. I guess you've not gone far enough in atheism to discover that.

frank317:

permitting devil to rebel against him and figthing him in return? permitting sin to full the world then destroying man afterall? are u even listening to yourself?
well, what am I even saying, are u not the one who said its all for his pleasure?

.. and ensuring justice is served. You forgot to add.

frank317:

Choose wisely and go after going by your recommendation to arrive at an unknown outcome? I guess in this case his had no foreknowldge of what his action might be right

Don't forget, Omniscient.

frank317:

I guess once Jesus Died God foreknowing abilities stopped working? How did he even arrive at sending Jesus to die with all the forknowledge he had... where did it fail him that he had to make things better?
how can he be repairing things he watched spoiling?

Man kept creating a mess for his creator to keep cleaning up. I think that's fair enough by the creator.

frank317:

so to you the child's freedom is better than his protection? You'd rather watch your child destroy himself with freedom than take away his freedom and protect me. Now isnt this where your God is getting it wrong?

Who's the child in this your example?

frank317:


He watches a little girl get molested and says... "If I protect her, that mean I have taken away her freedom.., no, let her have her freedom and suffer."
Oga, enjoy in worshiping a monster.

Your logic is not working here. Who's the little child in this your example?

Been reading this exchange.

Bolaji21, please learn to reflect upon what you read and write.


You wrote that soeme nigerian tribes believe that their forefathers fell from the sky. It is laughable abi?

But you are ready to believe that an all mighty god up in the sky could not find a sensible way to forgive sins other than sending his Jewish son to commit suicide.


But you are ready to believe the following in the religious books- talking snakes, talking donkeys, zombies, ressurection from the dead etc

JackBizzle:
Been reading this exchange.

Bolaji21, please learn to reflect upon what you read and write.


You wrote that soeme nigerian tribes believe that their forefathers fell from the sky. It is laughable abi?

But you are ready to believe that an all mighty god up in the sky could not find a sensible way to forgive sins other than sending his Jewish son to commit suicide.


But you are ready to believe the following in the religious books- talking snakes, talking donkeys, zombies, ressurection from the dead etc

Whether it is laughable or not is dependent on you. I used it as an example to make a point that what a human choose to believe is not reflective of his sanity. Not as pun.

Bolaji21:

God created man and mankind is responsible for the state of the world. If it's comforting for you to blame God for every evil, I won't try to change you.

Well my mission was to show u why it makes no sense to me... I have clearly done that and you have failed to make it make sense to me, infact you have made it worst... like a young girl goes through pain of being molested for his pleasure? WTF

You mean like making sure there are no raw materials to make gun powder, right?

I dont understand... did u even read my response? let me post it again...
U accept that God was kind enough not to create us like robot... yet u compare us with robotic creatures like TV or Guns... if God created humans with ability to do things on their own... he should have taken care of the consequences of this free will before embarking on this project which had led man to making nonsense of his plans.

why in the world are u mentioning gun powder? I said dont compare man with inanimate objects like gun... a gun creator cannot be responsible for what another man does with his gun... the only time he can be responsible is if the he created a gun with a life of its own.

That's weird. I never got the news that the Chinese that invented gunpowder have been sued to court for causing world War 1&2.

This is an off response, please refer to response above for clearance. and stop comapring man with inanimate objects like Guns... are u not saying that God did not create us like robots? why use creators of robotic creatures to compare with God who didnt create robotic objects.

No you haven't. Please do

Choosing what and what not believe has nothing has to do with sanity, my brother. Some parts of the Southwest here still believe their forefather fell from the sky with chains.

ok... for you your son can believe his grand father is actually God
for me if my son believes that, i will question his sanity

The higher you are, the better you see. You are not God, so you can't see like Him.

Tell me something... you are higher, and u are now God and can see like him... smh, yet u have been giving me ridiculous responses all day. Oga, i will pass.

Why should we?

Because its just a folktale

You don't bear these people in mind as much as their creator do. And he didn't put them in that state, Satan and mankind in agreement are the cause. You don't need to drag God into it just to suite yourself.

lol... cares for them indeed. When does he really care, when he is watching them suffer for his pleasure? Now he has brought in satan, the imaginary one who takes the blame.
Are u not the one who said your God permitted him to do evil? how can u say mankind is in agreement with satan, a being that had the guts to fight ur so call almighty God? I wish you the best in ur battle with him.

Seun is responsible for your posts here, right?

Oga, Your God gave us free will to chose evil or good... he is responsible for giving us choice... even before giving he determined the kind of choice we will have... as a matter of fact Seun cant be responsible for the post here... i am. the site is an inanimate creation by seun, I am a living being created by your God and given life.. stop comparing living things with animate objects. You God according to u gave me life. he is responsible to an extent of what i do.

His plan is disorganised even to Satan himself
That's why he always walk right into His majesty's plan over and over again.

you seem not to know what u are actually saying.
satan disorganized the pan of an all knowing God? Satan is taking the blame for an all knowing Gods failure?
I thought it was your God that permitted it?

oga chose one...
did God permit everything?
Did satan disorganize his plan?
Did he foreknew everything?
Did he fail

remember, all four cannot go together.

You forgotten Satan is in the equation.

off point response, try again.The answer does not correlate with my post.

You were to be created first and asked which family you want to be born through, then you're recreated into that family. Is that what you're suggesting?

lol.. it seems you are loosing concentration...

ur responses have got nothing to do with my posts.. pls follow the conversation. This ur response, I dont even understand, sure u are not talking to another person?

He's the King of the Universe. You can't change that, you have to deal with it.

he is not any king of any universe, you can change that, u have to deal with it.

That's not a valid point. The Bible has been proven several times to be accurate. I guess you've not gone far enough in atheism to discover that.

I am not responding to this point again until you show me any historical document that correlates with Lucifer fighting with yaw-eh as shown in the bible

Man kept creating a mess for his creator to keep cleaning up. I think that's fair enough by the creator.

of course... thats what happens when foreknowledge is useless

our logic is not working here. Who's the little child in this your example?

I mean any child... does it have to be a child u know before u understand?

frank317:

Well my mission was to show u why it makes no sense to me... I have clearly done that and you have failed to make it make sense to me, infact you have made it worst... like a young girl goes through pain of being molested for his pleasure? WTF

My mission is to show that you're trying to make nonsense out of sense, and it's glaring to the readers.

frank317:

I dont understand... did u even read my response? let me post it again...
U accept that God was kind enough not to create us like robot... yet u compare us with robotic creatures like TV or Guns... if God created humans with ability to do things on their own... he should have taken care of the consequences of this free will before embarking on this project which had led man to making nonsense of his plans.

The WHY question will never end. He's God and he decided to create man with the ability to choose because that's what he wants. You can decide to blame him for everything thereafter.

frank317:

why in the world are u mentioning gun powder? I said dont compare man with inanimate objects like gun... a gun creator cannot be responsible for what another man does with his gun... the only time he can be responsible is if the he created a gun with a life of its own.

If you don't think the Chinese guys that invented gunpowder (an inanimate item with no will) are worthy to be sued, then why do you think God that made man (a being that can make decisions without coordination from the creator or any other being) should be blamed for what that creature does.

A father can be blamed if his 2yr old child kills someone. Why? The child cannot be said to be responsible for its actions yet.
But if a 30yr old man murders a fellow man and you're saying the Father should be blamed, then I can't help you.

frank317:

This is an off response, please refer to response above for clearance. and stop comapring man with inanimate objects like Guns... are u not saying that God did not create us like robots? why use creators of robotic creatures to compare with God who didnt create robotic objects.

That's the easiest way for me to help you understand, but seems you're not trying to understand.

frank317:

ok... for you your son can believe his grand father is actually God
for me if my son believes that, i will question his sanity

Sure, you're free.

frank317:

Tell me something... you are higher, and u are now God and can see like him... smh, yet u have been giving me ridiculous responses all day. Oga, i will pass.

English seems to be a major barrier here. The discussion is about God. When did it become about me?

frank317:

Because its just a folktale

frank317:

lol... cares for them indeed. When does he really care, when he is watching them suffer for his pleasure? Now he has brought in satan, the imaginary one who takes the blame.

Yes, the imaginary one who's messing with your thinking.

frank317:

Are u not the one who said your God permitted him to do evil? how can u say mankind is in agreement with satan, a being that had the guts to fight ur so call almighty God? I wish you the best in ur battle with him.

You just said he's an imaginary creature, so this point needn't follow.

frank317:

Oga, Your God gave us free will to chose evil or good... he is responsible for giving us choice... even before giving he determined the kind of choice we will have...

You've been swinging back and forth all day.

frank317:

as a matter of fact Seun cant be responsible for the post here... i am.

Why? Because you're inanimate, right? Because there's no mod to hide or delete your post, right?

frank317:

the site is an inanimate creation by seun, I am a living being created by your God and given life.. stop comparing living things with animate objects. You God according to u gave me life. he is responsible to an extent of what i do.

Let me just make it clear, you're responsible for what you do. That's why the Police won't look for God to arrest whrn you murder someone tomorrow.

frank317:

you seem not to know what u are actually saying.
satan disorganized the pan of an all knowing God? Satan is taking the blame for an all knowing Gods failure?
I thought it was your God that permitted it?

I'm beginning to think you don't understand English well enough (no insult intended please) or maybe you don't read and understand my post before you comment. Where did you read that I said Satan disorganised the plan of God.

frank317:

oga chose one...
did God permit everything? Yes. Nothing happens without his knowledge.
Did satan disorganize his plan? No. Read my last reply again
Did he foreknew everything? Yes, He's omniscient
Did he fail No, things are going just as he foreknew

remember, all four cannot go together.

frank317:

off point response, try again.The answer does not correlate with my post.

There you go, cherry picking the answers that suite you and discarding the ones you can't argue.

frank317:

lol.. it seems you are loosing concentration...

ur responses have got nothing to do with my posts.. pls follow the conversation. This ur response, I dont even understand, sure u are not talking to another person?

You're almost confirming my suspicion as to your comprehension of my English.

frank317:

he is not any king of any universe, you can change that, u have to deal with it.

Unfortunately, you didn't make Him King and you can't dethrone Him.

frank317:

I am not responding to this point again until you show me any [b]historical document[/b]that correlates with Lucifer fighting with yaw-eh as shown in the bible

You're asking for an historical document to explain what happened in another realm, is that it? Historical documents contain events in human history that can be traced to a physical location and time.

frank317:

of course... thats what happens when foreknowledge is useless

Foreknowledge is useless to you because you're not omnipotent. He's both omniscient and omnipotent.

frank317:

I mean any child... does it have to be a child u know before u understand?

The 'child' doesn't make the illustration fit. I've used the example of a child correctly up there. Go back and check. When did it become easy for you to equate a child to an adult as regards decision making?

winner01:
Is there any where in the Bible where Christ beat up a witch or censored the beating or rejection of witches or other people who do not share the same views with you?

Jesus did not beat up witches, but he is said to have whipped merchants in the temple, so he was not totally against whipping people.

winner01:
Is there any where in the Bible where Christ beat up a witch or censored the beating or rejection of witches or other people who do not share the same views with you?

Longest time winners

Seun:

Jesus did not beat up witches, but he is said to have whipped merchants in the temple, so he was not totally against whipping people.

.
Kindly provide the chapter and verse of the Bible where it was recorded that Jesus whipped merchants.

Bolaji21:
.
Kindly provide the chapter and verse of the Bible where it was recorded that Jesus whipped merchants.

Are u 4 real

urahara:


Are u 4 real

Yes I am.

luvmijeje:


Says who? We all have the Bible as our central theme. We all believe in Christ. So repeat your point again.

Which version of the bible is yours. That incomplete and remixed book. I hate xtianity, i'm happy to be free now. i'm a #freethinker now

Bolaji21:

My mission is to show that you're trying to make nonsense out of sense, and it's glaring to the readers.

Lol... Ok.

The WHY question will never end. He's God and he decided to create man with the ability to choose because that's what he wants. You can decide to blame him for everything thereafter.

How I wish he was real... I really don't blame him my brother... I don't even see the possibility of his existence. Even if he exists, he wouldn't need all this long story to convince me.

If the Chinese guys that invented gunpowder (an inanimate item with no will, and you don't think they're worthy to be sued. Then why do you think God that made man (a being that can make decisions without coordination) should be blamed for what that creature does.

A father can be blamed if his 2yr old child kills someone. Why? The child cannot be said to be responsible for its actions yet.
But if a 30yr old man murders a fellow man and you're saying the Father should be blamed, then I can't help you.

Do guns shoot people themselves? Isn't it people that use it to kill other people? Humans feel emotions, and can't be treated like inanimate objects.
Your God knew the future before creating humans...he knew everything every human will do before creating them... What exactly are u even saying?
Why would a father of a 2yr old be blamed for anything? Did he create the child? Did he install into the child the ability to kill like ur God installed in humans?

That's the easiest way for me to help you understand, but seems you're not trying to understand.

Don't compare man with inanimate objects...Ur sees the future, knows every outcome, yet expects something different...that's irresponsible.

Sure u are free

Imagine

English seems to be a major barrier here. The discussion is about God. When did it become about me?

This is ur post below

The higher you are, the better you see. You are not God, so you can't see like Him
Since I am not God and can see like him... Are u God? What are u then doing telling me unexplainable things about him? Can u see like him? If not why accuse me I can't see like him?

Yes, the imaginary one who's messing with your thinking.

Irrelevant

You just said he's an imaginary creature, so this point needn't follow.

The point is to show you that he is actually imaginery...duhhh

Let me just make it clear, you're responsible for what you do. That's why the Police won't look for God to arrest whrn you murder someone tomorrow.

U keep on making unrelated comparison. We are humans, trying to make sense of our reality and live in relative peace. You bring in God a creator who is ominieverything, can see the future, can do everything, loves humans in an immeasurable way and is invisible... Yet when asked to explain this being, u bring examples of fallible humans... Watin concern police concern God? Do u even know what u mean when u say God?
Have I ever argue that I am not responsible for what I do? I am trying to make u see how what I do have nothing to do with any God, Ur points seem to be in agreement with me but u just want the God equation to be there... Yet u can't explain.
Oga, u cannot bring God, a creator who is ominieverything and he creates and gives us choice and knows the consequence of everything he gave us, yet he takes no responsibility for anything that happens in the world he created? It's not possible.

I'm beginning to think you don't understand English well enough (no insult intended please) or maybe you don't read and understand my post before you comment. Where did you read that I said Satan disorganised the plan of God.

Sorry, I misread.

There you go, cherry picking the answers that suite you and discarding the ones you can't argue.

Ok

You're almost confirming my suspicion as to your comprehension of my English.

Of course u are speaking Queens English

Unfortunately, you didn't make Him King and you can't dethrone Him.

So true

You're asking for an historical document to explain what happened in another realm, is that it? Historical documents contain events in human history that can be traced to a physical location and time.

Lol... Of course u have nothing else to show for it... Let me ask u, would u believe the Muslims story that Mohammed divided the moon into two? That's how did ur own Lucifer Yahweh story sounds.

Foreknowledge is useless to you because you're not omnipotent. He's both omniscient and omnipotent.

Are u ominipotent? Why is it not useless to u? Can u even tell me what he does with his foreknowledge?

The child doesn't make the illustration fit. I've used the example of a child correctly up there. Go back and check. When did it become easy for you to equate a child to an adult as regards decision making?

It fits perfectly... Children get molested by cruel humans on daily basis but ur God will not help because it will take away their free will, instead he would rather watch them suffer.
Ooopps. ... No loving creator can watch their loving infant creation suffer in the hands of older creation and not do anything. Perhaps the child is responsible for her action... This is a line u have been using in defence.