kikuyu1:


My source http://nationsdawnofanera.weebly.com/-helicopters.html

says 45 mn $.

No offence but that site is BS. They've even got prices for SA arms which never even went into production. I've explained where that figure comes from, which is a wonky way of calculating.
Geopolitics killed the UK, Turkey and Australia deals, IIRC. Malaysia cancelled its order because of the Asian financial crisis.

kikuyu1:




Edit: do you use your old R1s as platoon level DMRs as the pic shows?

Both R1 and R4 are used as DMRs at section and platoon level.
All the DMs I know seem to prefer the R1 for some unfathomable reason .

Why do you want to make the army's assault rifle less deadly in the first place ?
The R-4 has a folding stock, so its not a problem in vehicle operations. If you want to start chopping 100s of ft. in velocity ,you should have a better reason than cool looks. The US made a big error when they went with the shorter M4 for everyone. The loss in terminal effects at range in Afghanistan is well documented. A peer opponent with body armor will be an even bigger problem. That's why they are giving serious consideration to adding more 7.62mm weapons to their squads.

We are not part of NATO, so why not upgrade our caliber next time we switch to a new rifle ? 6.5mm Grendel would be an excellent bush breaker and be relevant for decades. If we switch the LMG over to it ,it would actually make logistics easier as well. Our rifle ammo load would get heavier, but our belted LMG load would get lighter. Remember, the LMG ammo gets spread out in your section.

patches689:


Yes, I know thats why I made my post.

As carbines go, the R5 has a higher muzzle velocity than the standard service rifles of other nations (which are all carbines these days). [because 5.56×45mm NATO is a marvelous round]

Just been reading about how 5.56×45 is kind of a double edged sword. It doesnt expand much on impact and has a small "yaw" leading to a higher probability of wounding an enemy soldier (at range) as apposed to killing - HOWEVER - because the round does not expand, it is excellent at penetrating light cover, which is great for bush-fighting.

I'm saving my pennies to buy one of these next. They're a lot more expensive than my AK's and AR's. Selling my POS Tavor as soon as I get a buyer.
I'm busy restoring an ex SADF R1 for my Dad to shoot when he comes to visit me. Someone put a lot of aftermarket crap on it, so I'm putting old SADF furniture on as I get my hands on it.
Bought it from a dealer who had 11 SADF R1s in stock. No idea how they made it into the USA.

frumentius:

Personally, I think there's a place for both 5.56 and 7.62 rounds.
The 5.56 for FIBUA, to minimise civilian collateral damage; and 7.62 out in the bush.
Incidentally, been thinking about a replacement for the R-series (cos we'll have to replace it at some point):
1) Most logical is a licence-produced Galil ACE in both 5.56 and 7.62 NATO - out obviously because politics;
2) And I keep circling back to the CZ Bren 2, in both 5.56 and 7.62 NATO.

Licence-produced of course, and achieving economies of scale through equipping both SANDF and SAPS.

frumentius:

Both R1 and R4 are used as DMRs at section and platoon level.
All the DMs I know seem to prefer the R1 for some unfathomable reason .

I wonder why too! Ofc,everyone here would prefer the STAR TAVOR! Yes,Sharp Shooting Tavor Assault Rifle. Behold!

61mech:
I'm saving my pennies to buy one of these next. They're a lot more expensive than my AK's and AR's. Selling my POS Tavor as soon as I get a buyer.
I'm busy restoring an ex SADF R1 for my Dad to shoot when he comes to visit me. Someone put a lot of aftermarket crap on it, so I'm putting old SADF furniture on as I get my hands on it.
Bought it from a dealer who had 11 SADF R1s in stock. No idea how they made it into the USA.

In the name of all that's holy, why did you get the Tavor?

Off topic:Philippines Navy Seals battle Maute group on Lake Lanao

 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpcetHtZE1I

It looked cool and I thought the Israelis couldn't possibly f@(k up a rifle.
Never handled a worse gun in my life.

frumentius:

In the name of all that's holy, why did you get the Tavor?

Nigerian Navy

UN is the most useless institution ever

 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qe5CZDzb14Y

Nigerian Army

Pro-Hadi Security forces in Sudan paratroopers combat uniform and headgear ,being trained in Sudan

61mech:
It looked cool and I thought the Israelis couldn't possibly f@(k up a rifle.
Never handled a worse gun in my life.

I find most things that look cool only look cool.

kikuyu1:


I wonder why too! Ofc,everyone here would prefer the STAR TAVOR! Yes,Sharp Shooting Tavor Assault Rifle. Behold!

Bullups are nonsense, they're rifles done wrong.

newafricaken254:
UN is the most useless institution ever

 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qe5CZDzb14Y

What do you want UN to do.. ..

ActivateKruger:


Bullups are nonsense, they're rifles done wrong.

I can see why bullpups were created, but the advantages of a bullpup over a conventional assualt rifles is so tiny that it would simply be a waste of money to acquire them as a standard service rifle......well for the SANDF anyway, however seeing our soldiers with CR21s as standard would look fvcking awesome.

In all honesty assault rifle technology hasn't advanced much since the 50s, compared to other weapons the assault rifle hasn't evolved at all really!! Until there is a major leap in rifle technology, I wouldn't mind seeing our soldiers with the trusty R4 for the considerable future!!

Kenya GSU-recce Police -Boarding a train

bidexiii:


What do you want UN to do.. ..

this isn't the first time the congolese army has being accused of using excessive force on unarmed civilians or you rather they gun down women and children !?

sudan armed forces

61mech:
Why do you want to make the army's assault rifle less deadly in the first place ?
The R-4 has a folding stock, so its not a problem in vehicle operations. If you want to start chopping 100s of ft. in velocity ,you should have a better reason than cool looks. The US made a big error when they went with the shorter M4 for everyone. The loss in terminal effects at range in Afghanistan is well documented. A peer opponent with body armor will be an even bigger problem. That's why they are giving serious consideration to adding more 7.62mm weapons to their squads.

We are not part of NATO, so why not upgrade our caliber next time we switch to a new rifle ? 6.5mm Grendel would be an excellent bush breaker and be relevant for decades. If we switch the LMG over to it ,it would actually make logistics easier as well. Our rifle ammo load would get heavier, but our belted LMG load would get lighter. Remember, the LMG ammo gets spread out in your section.

I was writing a long post trying to defend my claims.

But as I fact checked and drew on my sources I ended up going down the rabbit hole of ballistic charts and ended up with contradictory source after contradictory source, and even then they were using varying barrel lengths which meant I would have to do math and stuff... so fvck it, abort mission!

Anyway, here is a good chart that makes some interesting reading
https://www.shootersforum.com/rifles-rifle-cartridges/8865-6-5-grendel-vs-6-8-spc-7-62-nato-5-56-nato.html

So, I agree with everyone about 6.5 Grendal or 6.8 SPC.

As for carbines, my argument was that the loss in f/ps was minor and it still outperformed contemporary carbines.

M4 woes in Afghan are overstated - it comes from ridge-fighting at extreme ranges up in the mountains. M4's did just fine the the green-zone where the majority of the fighting in Afghanistan was done and happens to be the environment that most closely mimics African environments (engagements at <100M)

Carbines are lighter and more ergonomic, also the R4 was designed for an Apartheid Army that had taller heavier soldiers and less women - its fore-grip and stock were both extended, remedying this would be a costly exercise. A smaller lighter service rifle is also a huge bonus for urban combat which will help future-war proof it.

patches689:


I was writing a long post trying to defend my claims.

But as I fact checked and drew on my sources I ended up going down the rabbit hole of ballistic charts and ended up with contradictory source after contradictory source, and even then they were using varying barrel lengths which meant I would have to do math and stuff... so fvck it, abort mission!

Anyway, here is a good chart that makes some interesting reading
https://www.shootersforum.com/rifles-rifle-cartridges/8865-6-5-grendel-vs-6-8-spc-7-62-nato-5-56-nato.html

So, I agree with everyone about 6.5 Grendal or 6.8 SPC.

As for carbines, my argument was that the loss in f/ps was minor and it still outperformed contemporary carbines.

M4 woes in Afghan are overstated - it comes from ridge-fighting at extreme ranges up in the mountains. M4's did just fine the the green-zone where the majority of the fighting in Afghanistan was done and happens to be the environment that most closely mimics African environments (engagements at <100M

Carbines are lighter and more ergonomic, also the R4 was designed for an Apartheid Army that had taller heavier soldiers and less women - its fore-grip and stock were both extended, remedying this would be a costly exercise. A smaller lighter service rifle is also a huge bonus for urban combat which will help future-war proof it.

Don't know if you've been to some places in Namibia and Angola......hell even in good old SA, but I promise you they don't mimic what you said above!!

As for rest I agree.....somewhat! I like the fact that you mentioned a lighter more ergonomic rifle for the SANDF, I disagree that it should be a carbine, if we really really want to waste money and go for a new service rifle than it should be a Bullpup NOT an updated R5/R4.

Something like the the CR21 would be perfect, lighter and shorter than the R4 but with the same barrel length hence not compromising accuracy.

Lastly answering Frumentius's question as to why the R1 is preferred over the R4 as a dmr......I've only shot the R4 before so im not an expert, but thinking about it logically the R1 is heavier and and has a longer barrel, meaning that the crosshairs are more steady on the target thanks to the heavier weight and its more forgiving thanks to the longer barrel! well that's my opinion anyway!!

The air force of Burkina Faso has placed an order for the procurement of two Russian Helicopters Mi-171Sh, Rostec announced at the end of August at Army 2017 near Moscow.

NAF COMPLETES TRAINING OF ADDITIONAL SPECIAL FORCES

The Nigerian Air Force (NAF) today graduated additional 150 personnel of the Regiment Specialty, who have just undergone an 8-week intensive Special Forces training conducted by an Israeli company. The Combined Graduation Ceremony at the NAF’s Regiment Training Centre (RTC) Kaduna equally witnessed the graduation of 6 officers from the Initial Regiment Officers’ Course and 74 personnel from the Very Important Persons (VIP) Protection Course. Before the commencement of the graduation ceremony, the Chief of the Air Staff (CAS), Air Marshal Sadique Abubakar, who was also the Guest of Honour, inspected a static display of Special Forces gears, survival equipment and first aid kits. Thereafter, some of the trainees displayed their newly acquired skills in self defence while others demonstrated their ability to rescue captured colleagues from the enemy’s camps, with air cover provided by a NAF helicopter. The NAF Special Forces also treated the selected audience to a demonstration of an assault attack.

The head of the Israeli Training Team, Major Roy, commended the resilience of the trainees, most of whom he said indeed qualified as Special Forces, based on performance. According to him, the impressive performance of the trainees went a long way in indicating the high level of professionalism in the NAF. In his welcome address, the Commandant of the RTC, Group Captain Isaac Subi, gratefully acknowledged the enormous human capacity building efforts of the CAS. He added that the extra effort of inviting foreign experts to come and train students in RTC had added much value to the training capability and stature of the Centre. He then enjoined the graduates to imbibe and make constant use of the lessons from the various courses.

Air Marshal Abubakar, who was the Guest of Honour at the Combined Graduation Ceremony, stated that the objective of the Special Forces Course and the other courses was to bridge the identified gap between force projection and force protection. He further said that the exploits of the NAF in projecting air power in the various conflict areas in Nigeria, and even beyond the shores of the country, was not in doubt. He added that the NAF had, however, identified the need to build more capacity in the area of force protection. In addition, the NAF needed to train more personnel that are capable of undertaking special operations, considering the country’s prevailing security challenges of insurgency and terrorism. He therefore thanked the NAF’s partners from Israel for a job well done, noting that the NAF would continue to strengthen the partnership towards preserving the territorial integrity of Nigeria and ensuring the security of Nigerians. The CAS equally seized the opportunity to appreciate the Federal Government, including the National Assembly, for availing the Service the resources to meet its capacity building aspirations, amongst others.

The second batch of 150 NAF personnel shortlisted for the Special Forces course would commence training shortly.

DOPRI

..

.

Yeaahhh....about that . Money making scheme.

ssaengine:
Yeaahhh....about that . Money making scheme.

Why are you hopelessly idiotic?

http://www.702.co.za/articles/272980/83-sandf-vehicles-gone-up-in-smoke

83 SANDF vehicles gone up in smoke

Several vehicles belonging to the South African National Defence Force (SANDF) were destroyed in a fire at a vehicle depot at Wallmannstal north of Pretoria last week.

An internal investigation into the incident is being conducted.

Erika Gibson, Senior Specialist Reporter at Rapport broke the story. She says the the official response from the army is that the only one vehicle that burned was serviceable.

ssaengine:
Yeaahhh....about that . Money making scheme.

What's this? your bowels couldn't hold the excreta in?

Odunayaw:
What's this? your bowels couldn't hold the excreta in?

Nope. I tried holding for 8 weeks, then...disaster

http://itweb.co.za/mobilesite/defenceweb/home/item_id-49231/

Armscor seeking torpedoes for Type 209 submarines

Armscor has issued a tender for a heavy weight torpedo system for the South African Navy's Heroine class submarines, some years after it was announced that the Navy will be getting new torpedoes.

In a request for offer dated 11 September 2017 and entitled "Fully integrated heavy weight torpedo system (HWT) for the SA Navy Type 209 Mod RSA Submarine," Armscor said it "intends obtaining formal and binding offers for the acquisition of a heavy weight torpedo (HWT) system for the South African Navy (SAN)."

Closing date for the tender is 5 March 2018, with a compulsory bidders conference planned after the issue of the request for offers (RFO) - this will take place in Simon's Town between 23 and 27 October 2017.

Henry240:
NAF COMPLETES TRAINING OF ADDITIONAL SPECIAL FORCES

The Nigerian Air Force (NAF) today graduated additional 150 personnel of the Regiment Specialty, who have just undergone an 8-week intensive Special Forces training conducted by an Israeli company. The Combined Graduation Ceremony at the NAF’s Regiment Training Centre (RTC) Kaduna equally witnessed the graduation of 6 officers from the Initial Regiment Officers’ Course and 74 personnel from the Very Important Persons (VIP) Protection Course. Before the commencement of the graduation ceremony, the Chief of the Air Staff (CAS), Air Marshal Sadique Abubakar, who was also the Guest of Honour, inspected a static display of Special Forces gears, survival equipment and first aid kits. Thereafter, some of the trainees displayed their newly acquired skills in self defence while others demonstrated their ability to rescue captured colleagues from the enemy’s camps, with air cover provided by a NAF helicopter. The NAF Special Forces also treated the selected audience to a demonstration of an assault attack.

The head of the Israeli Training Team, Major Roy, commended the resilience of the trainees, most of whom he said indeed qualified as Special Forces, based on performance. According to him, the impressive performance of the trainees went a long way in indicating the high level of professionalism in the NAF. In his welcome address, the Commandant of the RTC, Group Captain Isaac Subi, gratefully acknowledged the enormous human capacity building efforts of the CAS. He added that the extra effort of inviting foreign experts to come and train students in RTC had added much value to the training capability and stature of the Centre. He then enjoined the graduates to imbibe and make constant use of the lessons from the various courses.

Air Marshal Abubakar, who was the Guest of Honour at the Combined Graduation Ceremony, stated that the objective of the Special Forces Course and the other courses was to bridge the identified gap between force projection and force protection. He further said that the exploits of the NAF in projecting air power in the various conflict areas in Nigeria, and even beyond the shores of the country, was not in doubt. He added that the NAF had, however, identified the need to build more capacity in the area of force protection. In addition, the NAF needed to train more personnel that are capable of undertaking special operations, considering the country’s prevailing security challenges of insurgency and terrorism. He therefore thanked the NAF’s partners from Israel for a job well done, noting that the NAF would continue to strengthen the partnership towards preserving the territorial integrity of Nigeria and ensuring the security of Nigerians. The CAS equally seized the opportunity to appreciate the Federal Government, including the National Assembly, for availing the Service the resources to meet its capacity building aspirations, amongst others.

The second batch of 150 NAF personnel shortlisted for the Special Forces course would commence training shortly.

DOPRI

150!!! Wow thats quite a lot some how large is your SFs?