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Nairaland Forum / Nairaland / General / Religion / Argument Of Design [replying OLAADEGBU'S THREAD] (5249 Views)
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Re: Argument Of Design [replying OLAADEGBU'S THREAD] by johnydon22(m): 10:22pm On Sep 20, 2017 |
DoctorAlien: exactly the point i had here, we not know whether the universe is without beginning or not even if you go by the Big bang cosmological model |
Re: Argument Of Design [replying OLAADEGBU'S THREAD] by bloodofthelamb(m): 10:23pm On Sep 20, 2017 |
OliviaPope:THAT SOMETHING MUST HAVE INTELLIGENCE TO CAUSE OR PRODUCE SOMETHING THAT IS ALSO INTELLIGENT....DON'T YOU THINK SO? |
Re: Argument Of Design [replying OLAADEGBU'S THREAD] by DoctorAlien(m): 10:27pm On Sep 20, 2017 |
johnydon22: Since you would bypass the quote from Stephen Hawking, I say that the Kalam argument which I posted above(in 2 posts) precludes the existence of an eternal universe/universe without beginning. 2 Likes |
Re: Argument Of Design [replying OLAADEGBU'S THREAD] by johnydon22(m): 10:30pm On Sep 20, 2017 |
bloodofthelamb: must also be complex to produce something that is also complex, yes? |
Re: Argument Of Design [replying OLAADEGBU'S THREAD] by bloodofthelamb(m): 10:39pm On Sep 20, 2017 |
johnydon22:ANYTHING THAT CAUSED THE BIG BANG, ACCORDING TO THOSE ROBING GOD OF HIS GLORY, MUST BE SO INTELLIGENT TO CAUSE A WELL STRUCTURED EARTH...THAT THING OR SOMETHING DESERVES OUR WORSHIP...DON'T YOU THINK SO? |
Re: Argument Of Design [replying OLAADEGBU'S THREAD] by johnydon22(m): 10:39pm On Sep 20, 2017 |
DoctorAlien: I'd stick with scientific cosmology though and thus agree to uncertainty of the subject 3 Likes 1 Share |
Re: Argument Of Design [replying OLAADEGBU'S THREAD] by DoctorAlien(m): 10:41pm On Sep 20, 2017 |
On whether the universe is designed or not, it is surely up to nonbelievers to produce a credible alternative to design. And "chance" is simply not credible. For we can understand chance only against a background of order. To say that something happened "by chance" is to say that it did not turn out as we would have expected, or that it did turn out in a way we would not have expected. But expectation is impossible without order. If you take away order and speak of chance alone as a kind of ultimate source, you have taken away the only background that allows us to speak meaningfully of chance at all. Instead of thinking of chance against a background of order, we are invited to think of order--overwhelmingly intricate and ubiquitous order--against a random and purposeless background of chance. Frankly, that is incredible. Therefore it is eminently reasonable to affirm the the universe is not by chance, and therefore to affirm the conclusion, that this universe is the product of intelligent design. 6 Likes 1 Share |
Re: Argument Of Design [replying OLAADEGBU'S THREAD] by johnydon22(m): 10:41pm On Sep 20, 2017 |
bloodofthelamb:Well such a thing must not necessarily be intelligent or even all powerful. Well i do not think something that something big and powerful enough to create the universe cares whether some tiny beings on a tiny world worships it or not |
Re: Argument Of Design [replying OLAADEGBU'S THREAD] by butterflyl1on: 10:43pm On Sep 20, 2017 |
johnydon22: Is the universe complex? What if your idea of complexity is seen as simplicity by an intelligent designer? Besides what is your definition of the complexity of an intelligent designer? 1 Like |
Re: Argument Of Design [replying OLAADEGBU'S THREAD] by vaxx: 10:44pm On Sep 20, 2017 |
johnydon22:No sir. it is self expressing. this is the main two point. it is the first mover therefore knowns himself . it is therefore not part of everything. HE KNOWS HIMSELF it the cause of the move effect and therefore do not require a cause. sure man being designer does not exempt man from being design because you can easily identify man design what about man himself? who design man. you will repeat the regression analogy here again. am waiting. I ask you again since you accept the design is complex. why are you not asking about the designer rather the designer of the designer? I heard it from you that God must have a creator since a creation has a creator. I also heard Mr Johndon too is a man he got pregnant and he gave birth. but am asking did he gave birth to boy or girl? you will still get the connection of my question. 3 Likes |
Re: Argument Of Design [replying OLAADEGBU'S THREAD] by felixomor: 10:45pm On Sep 20, 2017 |
johnydon22: Thats if u could show me the design and complex order like the one we see in the universe in your egg and sand mash up. |
Re: Argument Of Design [replying OLAADEGBU'S THREAD] by NairalandSARS: 10:46pm On Sep 20, 2017 |
DoctorAlien: Does this thing you wrote make sense to you? 1 Like |
Re: Argument Of Design [replying OLAADEGBU'S THREAD] by DoctorAlien(m): 10:47pm On Sep 20, 2017 |
NairalandSARS: Yes. The continuation of that post is in a post after the post below it. I can only post in bits for now. |
Re: Argument Of Design [replying OLAADEGBU'S THREAD] by butterflyl1on: 10:49pm On Sep 20, 2017 |
NairalandSARS: Just think of the word "infinity" then add "regression" to it. That would help. 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: Argument Of Design [replying OLAADEGBU'S THREAD] by johnydon22(m): 10:58pm On Sep 20, 2017 |
felixomor: You have no idea how many can be pointed out |
Re: Argument Of Design [replying OLAADEGBU'S THREAD] by felixomor: 10:58pm On Sep 20, 2017 |
johnydon22:I have. Its zero. 1 Like |
Re: Argument Of Design [replying OLAADEGBU'S THREAD] by butterflyl1on: 11:01pm On Sep 20, 2017 |
johnydon22: The point is this johnydon how would you be able to recognise an intelligent design from an egg, sand mash up if you never knew what the end product would look like? How would you be able to say that what was produced is orderly, beautiful and precisely purposeful? What tests would prove this? 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: Argument Of Design [replying OLAADEGBU'S THREAD] by bloodofthelamb(m): 11:07pm On Sep 20, 2017 |
johnydon22:THE NEWTON FIRST LAW OF MOTION STATES: AN OBJECT REMAINS IN A PLACE OF REST UNTIL AN EXTERNAL FORCE ACTS ON IT...THE EARTH CANNOT PRODUCE/CREATE ITSELF... |
Re: Argument Of Design [replying OLAADEGBU'S THREAD] by butterflyl1on: 11:08pm On Sep 20, 2017 |
So Johnydon based on the above statement by me would you say intelligence is seen at the beginning of the singularity that caused the big bang or in the middle or at the end which is the point we are now? Or would you say none of the stages show any intelligence? |
Re: Argument Of Design [replying OLAADEGBU'S THREAD] by bloodofthelamb(m): 11:16pm On Sep 20, 2017 |
johnydon22:BRO, IT IS ONLY AN UNINTELLIGENT PERSON THAT DOES THINGS WITHOUT A PURPOSE...THAT THING THAT CAUSED THE MIRACULOUS "BIG BANG" MUST HAVE A PURPOSE IN MIND...DON'T YOU THINK SO? |
Re: Argument Of Design [replying OLAADEGBU'S THREAD] by bloodofthelamb(m): 11:18pm On Sep 20, 2017 |
johnydon22: |
Re: Argument Of Design [replying OLAADEGBU'S THREAD] by johnydon22(m): 11:33pm On Sep 20, 2017 |
butterflyl1on: this is design
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Re: Argument Of Design [replying OLAADEGBU'S THREAD] by johnydon22(m): 11:34pm On Sep 20, 2017 |
bloodofthelamb:Are we talking about Purpose? |
Re: Argument Of Design [replying OLAADEGBU'S THREAD] by johnydon22(m): 11:35pm On Sep 20, 2017 |
butterflyl1on: You may well read my OP again |
Re: Argument Of Design [replying OLAADEGBU'S THREAD] by johnydon22(m): 11:37pm On Sep 20, 2017 |
bloodofthelamb: The earth is as a result of an already existing universe filled with incessant causes. Planets are inevitable effects of gravity. [Mind you: every known law of physics breaks down at a singularity though] |
Re: Argument Of Design [replying OLAADEGBU'S THREAD] by butterflyl1on: 11:45pm On Sep 20, 2017 |
johnydon22: You didn't answer my question. how would you be able to recognise an intelligent design from an egg, sand mash up if you never knew what the end product would look like? How would you be able to say that what was produced is orderly, beautiful and precisely purposeful? What tests would prove this? |
Re: Argument Of Design [replying OLAADEGBU'S THREAD] by bloodofthelamb(m): 12:03am On Sep 21, 2017 |
johnydon22:WHAT/WHO IS BEHIND THE FORCE OF GRAVITY...FOR THERE IS NO SMOKE WITHOUT FIRE.. |
Re: Argument Of Design [replying OLAADEGBU'S THREAD] by johnydon22(m): 12:20am On Sep 21, 2017 |
butterflyl1on:your question is based on the presumption that design means orderly, no sir they are hardly the same which is why I posted that painting up there, it is designed but not ordered. So yes meshed egg can be pin pointed as an artistic design in so many ways, its no less disordered than that painting above. Lol many things can connote beauty, color more so. Nebulae are not ordered but yet they are so beautiful. A broken egg can equally be as beautiful as that. So yes.
Purpose is a child of the human mind. And if we judge from that 99.99% of the universe won't have a purpose. So this part is not my business. 5 Likes 2 Shares |
Re: Argument Of Design [replying OLAADEGBU'S THREAD] by johnydon22(m): 12:20am On Sep 21, 2017 |
bloodofthelamb: Mass over space/time |
Re: Argument Of Design [replying OLAADEGBU'S THREAD] by butterflyl1on: 12:55am On Sep 21, 2017 |
author=johnydon22 post=60670944] your question is based on the presumption that design means orderly, no sir they are hardly the same which is why I posted that painting up there, it is designed but not ordered. You say the painting isn't orderly based on your "untrained" eye. However the painter sees beauty and order even in the mess you see. This was why I asked at what point would you say intelligence is seen? Is it at the beginning of the singularity that caused the big bang or in the middle or at the end which is the point we are now? Or would you say none of the stages show any intelligence? Showing me that picture shows we are no longer talking about suppositions because you have a notion about what your do not perceive orderliness to look like but I can say that once the end product of what seems messy shows purpose then it's no longer messy.
So you agree then that in what you call a mess design can be an intrinsic part of it. Lol many things can connote beauty, color more so. Nebulae are not ordered but yet they are so beautiful. A broken egg can equally be as beautiful as that. Again despite talking about design being possible in a mess you still say the nebulae isn't ordered? If the nebulae isn't ordered how come stars are born there? Can chaos produce order? Purpose is a child of the human mind. And if we judge from that 99.99% of the universe won't have a purpose. You "assume" that 99% of the universe serves no purpose when mankind is even yet to explore and experience 0.00000000000000000000000001% of it. How did you arrive at such a summation? Remember you said the nebulae was chaotic earlier yet this alleged chaos is the birth place for stars. So this part is not my business. It should be! You cannot deny the obvious purpose in what you term as chaos. Can you? Remember you came from what you term as "chaos". Would you say your purpose filled body parts deny order or embrace chaos? 4 Likes 2 Shares |
Re: Argument Of Design [replying OLAADEGBU'S THREAD] by johnydon22(m): 9:17am On Sep 21, 2017 |
butterflyl1on:Please beauty is not same thing as orderly. And this obviously also affirms my point, smashed egg can be artistic. This question makes it obvious you neither didn't read the OP or didn't understand it and i won't oblige the digressive clutch. Read the post, i won't argue against your misconception - What i see are natural causes and effects
Jesus Christ, again Oder and purpose is not the same thing. Please understand that basic thing. Order, beauty, purpose are not same, stop using together like that.
Oh thank you very much now you are helping me make my point to feliximor. smashed egg he may think undesigned can actually may have been designed. I provided the picture to show that un-ordered system is not necessarily undesigned, ordered is not necessarily designed. Maybe it makes more sense when you lot say it or you don't even get it in the first place. God of mercy! Forgive me for the exclamation but there naive statements i don't expect people to make, maybe i give people too much credit. 1. nebulae are very random gasses therefore there are no apparent order [it's just as ordered as a smoke coming out of a chimney] it's random oo 2.star formation is a chaotic process 3. this shows again that you didn't read the OP where i showed perfectly geometrical projections [circles] can come from random chaos. If i read a response that shows ignorance of the OP i won't reply it, i hate to condescend but people take the bar so low. Purpose is a child of the human mind - read to understand How did you arrive at such a summation? Remember you said the nebulae was chaotic earlier yet this alleged chaos is the birth place for stars.Amazing how these stars being formed affects earth neither are we ever going to explore even 1%.. LOL.. I don't even think i can or will start explaining what it means that "purpose is a child of the human mind"
again uses order and purpose as the same. Order is not same as purpose mind your words, when will you understand this, i won't continue reminding that. 10 Likes 2 Shares |
Re: Argument Of Design [replying OLAADEGBU'S THREAD] by butterflyl1on: 10:04am On Sep 21, 2017 |
author=johnydon22 post=60677697] Please beauty is not same thing as orderly. And this obviously also affirms my point, smashed egg can be artistic. You seem not to get it at all. A painter of what you call a messy painting SEES beauty and order in the mess you see. 1. You are not in the mind of the painter 2. You never influenced the painters decisions for colour, depth and pattern. 3. Much like science is yet to understand less than 1% of our universe so are you unable to understand why the painter chose to see order from what you term as a mish mash. This question makes it obvious you neither didn't read the OP or didn't understand it and i won't oblige the digressive clutch. I read the OP and my question is valid for this discussion. At what point did order/purpose begin to be seen and become well defined? Do we still see chaos today despite the end products which are in sync with man's needs emanating from what you term as chaos? Read the post, i won't argue against your misconception - What i see are natural causes and effects Exactly! It's what your untrained eye and your untrained perceptions see and what you see is what you have said but can what you see deny end result? Jesus Christ, again Oder and purpose is not the same thing. Please understand that basic thing. Order, beauty, purpose are not same, stop using together like that. Again what you say here is solely based on what YOU see and not from the viewpoint of the painter. If I were to show you the schematics of a skyscraper all you would see would not make sense to you as an untrained eye. It would look chaotic but the designer only sees beauty, order and purpose behind his schematics which your untrained eye calls messy and cannot make sense of. . Wrong again. There is no ordered system that isn't designed. The whole reason behind design is order. Why then do we design when we could simply have scribbled rubbish and let it run. Order is the whole purpose for design. God of mercy! Forgive me for the exclamation but there naive statements i don't expect people to make, maybe i give people too much credit. Again you call star formation a random process simply because you are not the painter. Do you realise that our sun is A Star which was allegedly formed by this same nebulae? How then was the sun "randomly" formed by this chaotic nebulae yet the end product is that it helps sustain life and our ecosystem here on earth? How would a chaotic nebulae somehow be able to achieve a feat such as giving us what we cannot do without on this earth in order to live? I keep asking that you look at the end product from what you claim was chaos and ask yourself how this chaos was able to produce purpose. Purpose is a child of the human mind - read to understand Purpose is a necessity! Purpose is all there is! Amazing how these stars being formed affects earth neither are we ever going to explore even 1%.. LOL.. Your untrained and unexposed eye still speaking here. again uses order and purpose as the same. Order is not same as purpose mind your words, when will you understand this, i won't continue reminding that. I do not know where you saw me say order and purpose were the same thing. However where you see purpose, you see order. Where you see order then purpose for this order is inevitable. I cannot continue telling you this. 7 Likes 4 Shares |
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