DoctorAlien:


Imaginary time indeed.

Nothing conclusive can be said about the Singularity. The nature of the Singularity is not even known. In fact, whether it existed or not is pure speculation, just like the whole of the Big Bang theory.

OliviaPope:
Or something?

johnydon22:


exactly the point i had here, we not know whether the universe is without beginning or not even if you go by the Big bang cosmological model

bloodofthelamb:
THAT SOMETHING MUST HAVE INTELLIGENCE TO CAUSE OR PRODUCE SOMETHING THAT IS ALSO INTELLIGENT....DON'T YOU THINK SO?

johnydon22:
The Big Bang yes but if i recall correctly the Big bang was caused by a singularity (As the scientists also postulated) So yes the Big Bang accounts for the beginning of the universe but not that of the Singularity which might as well be eternal or not.



Ooh far from that i have no intension of proving that, it would be an even lesser miracle though than you knowing God so well to know he has a son

DoctorAlien:


Since you would bypass the quote from Stephen Hawking, I say that the Kalam argument which I posted above(in 2 posts) precludes the existence of an eternal universe/universe without beginning.

bloodofthelamb:
ANYTHING THAT CAUSED THE BIG BANG, ACCORDING TO THOSE ROBING GOD OF HIS GLORY, MUST BE SO INTELLIGENT TO CAUSE A WELL STRUCTURED EARTH...

THAT THING OR SOMETHING DESERVES OUR WORSHIP...DON'T YOU THINK SO?

johnydon22:


must also be complex to produce something that is also complex, yes?

johnydon22:
That argument is self defeating and in modern term can be termed nonsensical just like Aristotle thinking objects in motion stopped moving because they get tired, knowing himself is not a basis for a mover to not be moved. If Plato argued that EVERYTHING that moves must have been moved by something at the same time thinks the Mover does not require to be moved then it fails in it's own game since for the mover to move something it must first move itself. and the argument states "everything" so if the mover can move without being moved then not everything that moves requires to be moved


still flawed being a designer does not exempt one from design. man is a designer does this exempt us from design?



Jesus christ what ever this means.



LOL where did you hear that from

johnydon22:


Really? never thought about that before?

but the cosmos now is like a fried egg or a mashed one?

What if this universe was created that way, God took some cosmic egg and smashed them together and this is the result - would you say God designed the universe or not?

DoctorAlien:
Can an infinite task ever be done or completed? If, in order to reach a certain end, infinitely many steps had to precede it, could the end ever be reached? Of course not—not even in an infinite time. For an infinite time would be unending, just as the steps would be. In other words, no end would ever be reached. The task would—could—never be completed. But what about the step just before the end? Could that point
ever be reached? Well, if the task is really infinite, then an infinity of steps must also have preceded it. And therefore the step just before the end could also never be reached. But then neither could the step just before that one. In fact, no step in
the sequence could be reached, because an infinity of steps must always have preceded any step; must always have been gone through one by one before it. The problem comes from supposing that an infinite sequence could ever reach, by temporal succession, any point at all.

Cc: Johnydon22

NairalandSARS:


Does this thing you wrote make sense to you?

NairalandSARS:


Does this thing you wrote make sense to you?

felixomor:


Thats if u could show me the design and complex order like the one we see in the universe in your egg and sand mash up.

johnydon22:


You have no idea how many can be pointed out

johnydon22:


You have no idea how many can be pointed out

johnydon22:
That argument is self defeating and in modern term can be termed nonsensical just like Aristotle thinking objects in motion stopped moving because they get tired, knowing himself is not a basis for a mover to not be moved. If Plato argued that EVERYTHING that moves must have been moved by something at the same time thinks the Mover does not require to be moved then it fails in it's own game since for the mover to move something it must first move itself. and the argument states "everything" so if the mover can move without being moved then not everything that moves requires to be moved


still flawed being a designer does not exempt one from design. man is a designer does this exempt us from design?



Jesus christ what ever this means.



LOL where did you hear that from

johnydon22:
Well such a thing must not necessarily be intelligent or even all powerful.

Well i do not think something that something big and powerful enough to create the universe cares whether some tiny beings on a tiny world worships it or not

johnydon22:
Well such a thing must not necessarily be intelligent or even all powerful.

Well i do not think something that something big and powerful enough to create the universe cares whether some tiny beings on a tiny world worships it or not

butterflyl1on:


The point is this johnydon how would you be able to recognise an intelligent design from an egg, sand mash up if you never knew what the end product would look like? How would you be able to say that what was produced is orderly, beautiful and precisely purposeful? What tests would prove this?

bloodofthelamb:
BRO, IT IS ONLY AN UNINTELLIGENT PERSON THAT DOES THINGS WITHOUT A PURPOSE...THAT THING THAT CAUSED THE MIRACULOUS "BIG BANG" MUST HAVE A PURPOSE IN MIND...DON'T YOU THINK SO?

butterflyl1on:
So Johnydon based on the above statement by me would you say intelligence is seen at the beginning of the singularity that caused the big bang or in the middle or at the end which is the point we are now?

Or would you say none of the stages show any intelligence?

bloodofthelamb:
THE NEWTON FIRST LAW OF MOTION STATES: AN OBJECT REMAINS IN A PLACE OF REST UNTIL AN EXTERNAL FORCE ACTS ON IT...THE EARTH CANNOT PRODUCE/CREATE ITSELF...

johnydon22:


this is design

johnydon22:


The earth is as a result of an already existing universe filled with incessant causes. Planets are inevitable effects of gravity. [Mind you: every known law of physics breaks down at a singularity though]

butterflyl1on:


You didn't answer my question.

how would you be able to recognise an intelligent design from an egg, sand mash up if you never knew what the end product would look like? How would you be able to say that what was produced is orderly,

beautiful

and precisely purposeful? What tests would prove this?

bloodofthelamb:
WHAT/WHO IS BEHIND THE FORCE OF GRAVITY...FOR THERE IS NO SMOKE WITHOUT FIRE..

author=johnydon22 post=60670944] your question is based on the presumption that design means orderly, no sir they are hardly the same which is why I posted that painting up there, it is designed but not ordered.

So yes meshed egg can be pin pointed as an artistic design in so many ways, its no less disordered than that painting above.

Lol many things can connote beauty, color more so. Nebulae are not ordered but yet they are so beautiful. A broken egg can equally be as beautiful as that.

Purpose is a child of the human mind. And if we judge from that 99.99% of the universe won't have a purpose.

So this part is not my business

butterflyl1on:


You say the painting isn't orderly based on your "untrained" eye. However the painter sees beauty and order even in the mess you see.

This was why I asked at what point would you say intelligence is seen? Is it at the beginning of the singularity that caused the big bang or in the middle or at the end which is the point we are now?

Or would you say none of the stages show any intelligence?

Showing me that picture shows we are no longer talking about suppositions because you have a notion about what your do not perceive orderliness to look like but I can say that once the end product of what seems messy shows purpose then it's no longer messy.

So you agree then that in what you call a mess design can be an intrinsic part of it.

Again despite talking about design being possible in a mess you still say the nebulae isn't ordered? If the nebulae isn't ordered how come stars are born there? Can chaos produce order?

You "assume" that 99% of the universe serves no purpose when mankind is even yet to explore and experience 0.00000000000000000000000001% of it.

How did you arrive at such a summation? Remember you said the nebulae was chaotic earlier yet this alleged chaos is the birth place for stars.

It should be! You cannot deny the obvious purpose in what you term as chaos. Can you? Remember you came from what you term as "chaos". Would you say your purpose filled body parts deny order or embrace chaos?

author=johnydon22 post=60677697] Please beauty is not same thing as orderly. And this obviously also affirms my point, smashed egg can be artistic

This question makes it obvious you neither didn't read the OP or didn't understand it and i won't oblige the digressive clutch

Read the post, i won't argue against your misconception - What i see are natural causes and effects

Jesus Christ, again Oder and purpose is not the same thing. Please understand that basic thing. Order, beauty, purpose are not same, stop using together like that.

Oh thank you very much now you are helping me make my point to feliximor. smashed egg he may think undesigned can actually may have been designed. I provided the picture to show that un-ordered system is not necessarily undesigned, ordered is not necessarily designed

God of mercy! Forgive me for the exclamation but there naive statements i don't expect people to make, maybe i give people too much credit.

1. nebulae are very random gasses therefore there are no apparent order [it's just as ordered as a smoke coming out of a chimney] it's random oo

2.star formation is a chaotic process

3. this shows again that you didn't read the OP where i showed perfectly geometrical projections [circles] can come from random chaos. If i read a response that shows ignorance of the OP i won't reply it, i hate to condescend but people take the bar so low.

Purpose is a child of the human mind - read to understand

Amazing how these stars being formed affects earth neither are we ever going to explore even 1%.. LOL..

again uses order and purpose as the same. Order is not same as purpose mind your words, when will you understand this, i won't continue reminding that.