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Solar Energy, A Complement To FTA - Satellite TV Technology (309) - Nairaland

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UPS Back-up, Also A Complement To FTA / FTA Frequency / Cctv Installation A Complement To Fta And Solar Energy (2) (3) (4)

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Re: Solar Energy, A Complement To FTA by dejidotun2000(m): 10:01pm On Nov 14, 2017
One foolish question house: do agm/smf batteries benefit from desulfation?
Re: Solar Energy, A Complement To FTA by kiekie1(m): 10:09pm On Nov 14, 2017
dejidotun2000:
One foolish question house: do agm/smf batteries benefit from desulfation?

Its not really a "foolish question" as we learn daily wink . I will strictly advice you equalize agm batteries under close observation and safe voltage range as they are not flooded lead acid ... A slight mistake might lead to battery loss or explosion ! Cheers

1 Like

Re: Solar Energy, A Complement To FTA by oneshowguy: 10:39pm On Nov 14, 2017
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Re: Solar Energy, A Complement To FTA by NiyiOmoIyunade(m): 9:12am On Nov 15, 2017
All lead acid batteries benefit from desulfation because inherent to their design, they will always suffer from positive grid/plate corrosion and sulfation during the discharge and recharge process - in fact the very act of recharging a depleted lead acid battey implies desulfation.

The question then is how to do it right for an AGM/SMF battery since you cannot afford an overcharge (controlled or otherwise) leading to gassing and the battery drying up inside - for flooded/wet-cell batteries you would have simply replaced any lost fluids with distilled water after your equalization/controlled overcharge.

First things first you want to make sure your batteries get a full charge daily/regularly and are never left depleted for more than a week to get maximum mileage from them.

To desulfate/recover an AGM/SMF battery, first eliminate the misconception that you can do it with the battery bank hooked up in series e.g 24v,36v,48v and so on - each individual 12v battery (rarely you could have 6v AGM/SMF batteries in this part of the world) must be isolated and recharged to full charge individually > then load tested to ascertain capacity and > then recharged again to full charge > then you select batteries with similar capacity and hook them back up in series and connect to your inverter again and enjoy renewed performance

You could take a shortcut and buy a 12v inverter - e.g IcellPower (JUO) or Mustpower (Zeestone/KieKie) or any solid brand of your choice and hookup your batteries in parallel and charge fully - this method ensures you still get inverter backup/uniterrupted service while you are performing the full charge/desulfation process - you will need access to uninterrupted power during the period till you complete the charge cycle - yet, the best method is to isolate each individual battery and give it the treatment - full charge - load test - full recharge - group similar capacity batteries and put them back in service.

There is one last method where you can keep your series configuration and clap on a 12v charger to each individual battery and charge fully turn by turn given you have uninterrupted access to power to complete the charging process - needless to say you need to know what you are doing in this scenario and I will not dwell on it further.

To safely equalize/desulfate AGM/SMFs, you will need a smart charger capable of cutting off at 14.8volts (maximum safe upper limit) or lower as per manufacturer specs for the battery - anything over 14.8v per 12v battery you will likely gas the battery with no easy way to replace lost fluids in the AGM/SMF battery. I use a cheapo chinese charger called 'Suoer' for this purpose - it sells under 20k and cuts off reliably at 14.8volts.

You can also buy a battery desulfator e.g PowerPulse or BLS (Battery Life Saver) to assist in keeping your batteries healthy. I warrant to you though that in 8 years of using these desulfator devices I AM STILL UNDECIDED if they actually work!!! Sometimes they seem to perform a miracle and sometimes they appear useless - I know though that I will not buy any new ones apart from the ones I already have.

All in all, a very long reply to a very short question - I hope it is of help grin


dejidotun2000:
One foolish question house: do agm/smf batteries benefit from desulfation?

kiekie1:


Its not really a "foolish question" as we learn daily wink . I will strictly advice you equalize agm batteries under close observation and safe voltage range as they are not flooded lead acid ... A slight mistake might lead to battery loss or explosion ! Cheers

4 Likes

Re: Solar Energy, A Complement To FTA by kiekie1(m): 10:04am On Nov 15, 2017
kiekie1:
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1 Like

Re: Solar Energy, A Complement To FTA by dejidotun2000(m): 11:19am On Nov 15, 2017
Thanks. That was a very helpful answer. Thanks to Kiekie too.
NiyiOmoIyunade:
All lead acid batteries benefit from desulfation because inherent to their design, they will always suffer from positive grid/plate corrosion and sulfation during the discharge and recharge process - in fact the very act of recharging a depleted lead acid battey implies desulfation.

The question then is how to do it right for an AGM/SMF battery since you cannot afford an overcharge (controlled or otherwise) leading to gassing and the battery drying up inside - for flooded/wet-cell batteries you would have simply replaced any lost fluids with distilled water after your equalization/controlled overcharge.

First things first you want to make sure your batteries get a full charge daily/regularly and are never left depleted for more than a week to get maximum mileage from them.

To desulfate/recover an AGM/SMF battery, first eliminate the misconception that you can do it with the battery bank hooked up in series e.g 24v,36v,48v and so on - each individual 12v battery (rarely you could have 6v AGM/SMF batteries in this part of the world) must be isolated and recharged to full charge individually > then load tested to ascertain capacity and > then recharged again to full charge > then you select batteries with similar capacity and hook them back up in series and connect to your inverter again and enjoy renewed performance

You could take a shortcut and buy a 12v inverter - e.g IcellPower (JUO) or Mustpower (Zeestone/KieKie) or any solid brand of your choice and hookup your batteries in parallel and charge fully - this method ensures you still get inverter backup/uniterrupted service while you are performing the full charge/desulfation process - you will need access to uninterrupted power during the period till you complete the charge cycle - yet, the best method is to isolate each individual battery and give it the treatment - full charge - load test - full recharge - group similar capacity batteries and put them back in service.

There is one last method where you can keep your series configuration and clap on a 12v charger to each individual battery and charge fully turn by turn given you have uninterrupted access to power to complete the charging process - needless to say you need to know what you are doing in this scenario and I will not dwell on it further.

To safely equalize/desulfate AGM/SMFs, you will need a smart charger capable of cutting off at 14.8volts (maximum safe upper limit) or lower as per manufacturer specs for the battery - anything over 14.8v per 12v battery you will likely gas the battery with no easy way to replace lost fluids in the AGM/SMF battery. I use a cheapo chinese charger called 'Suoer' for this purpose - it sells under 20k and cuts off reliably at 14.8volts.

You can also buy a battery desulfator e.g PowerPulse or BLS (Battery Life Saver) to assist in keeping your batteries healthy. I warrant to you though that in 8 years of using these desulfator devices I AM STILL UNDECIDED if they actually work!!! Sometimes they seem to perform a miracle and sometimes they appear useless - I know though that I will not buy any new ones apart from the ones I already have.

All in all, a very long reply to a very short question - I hope it is of help grin




1 Like

Re: Solar Energy, A Complement To FTA by ATH: 12:26pm On Nov 15, 2017
This could be due to dust accumulation in the Inverter. You may open it up and blow/vacuum clean the dust away. Kindly do this before considering other suggested remedies by the professionals here.

Removing dust from inverter is a recommended periodic maintenance task to be regularly carried-out on Inverters.

JohnKester:


I am having similar experience with 7.5KVA Prag. It was running normally and the both the DC and AC fans were running intermittently as needed according to the specified temperature. However, for a while now the fans have been running simultaneously at the highest speeds. At such times, the consumption would increase dramatically up to 3 or 4KW when actual load is less than 1KW, without there being any additional loads. The load can only be eliminated when the inverter is switched off and back on. Once the fans start running, the charging from the PV also drops, I guess because of the gigantic self-consumption of the inverter!

I have a 48V Desulfator (Battery Life Saver) connected to the battery bank. However, my inverter does not charge my battery bank at all, as the charging function is actually turned off since I am completely off grid and does not even charge with generator, but only PV arrays.

Could the Desulfator be the problem, because come to think of it, I noticed this mode of operation only after installing the desulfator.

Anyone with ideas what can be wrong and the possible solution would be appreciated.

Cheers

1 Like

Re: Solar Energy, A Complement To FTA by ELShehzad: 2:55pm On Nov 15, 2017
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Re: Solar Energy, A Complement To FTA by earthrealm(m): 4:32pm On Nov 15, 2017
NiyiOmoIyunade:
Two separate issues bros.


For the fan always on or off setting, I suspect Saipro has made good use of the Install CD bundled with his Mustpower and has found a way to make the inverter talk to his PC and thereby effect custom settings - I am waiting for him to give the house the low down if this be the case.



yeah..mos of what you wrote above, hv already stated b4.
i hv 3 diff types of desulphator...hooked to diff systems...even hv one on the car, next month will make it 3yrs of my chinco car batt, will be a believer of the desulphator if it makes it to > 4yrs.

just checked..the powerpulse is hooked to my villa setup, luminous 1.5kva inverter...
on my mustpower setup..i hv cleanpower desulphator - https://www.amazon.com/Batteries-Battery-Regenerator-Pulse-Desulfator/dp/B00IQ5X91I/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1510759788&sr=8-6&keywords=desulphator

really inconclusive if the desulphators are working or not, but also not buying additional units till i can confirm their usefullness
Re: Solar Energy, A Complement To FTA by earthrealm(m): 8:18pm On Nov 15, 2017
A PALS 24V 4KVA PRAG INVERTER NO LONGER CHARGES, who can recommend a good place to repair it?
Re: Solar Energy, A Complement To FTA by kiekie1(m): 8:41pm On Nov 15, 2017
earthrealm:
A PALS 24V 4KVA PRAG INVERTER NO LONGER CHARGES, who can recommend a good place to repair it?

Is the location within Lagos state?... Simply dial: 081-350-319-51

2 Likes 1 Share

Re: Solar Energy, A Complement To FTA by earthrealm(m): 5:56am On Nov 16, 2017
kiekie1:


Is the location within Lagos state?... Simply dial: 081-350-319-51

no, not lagos..but he can send it in if necessary. thnaks
Re: Solar Energy, A Complement To FTA by JohnKester: 11:44am On Nov 16, 2017
ATH:

This could be due to dust accumulation in the Inverter. You may open it up and blow/vacuum clean the dust away. Kindly do this before considering other suggested remedies by the professionals here.

Removing dust from inverter is a recommended periodic maintenance task to be regularly carried-out on Inverters.


Thank you for the suggestion, but that was done immediately the abnormal operation was observed. However, the cleaning/vacuuming did not make any difference, it had continued to operate abnormally.

Cheers
Re: Solar Energy, A Complement To FTA by zeestone99(m): 11:57am On Nov 16, 2017
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Re: Solar Energy, A Complement To FTA by pdozie: 2:23pm On Nov 16, 2017
Please - who knows where one can repair/fix SUKAM and G-Power inverters?
Re: Solar Energy, A Complement To FTA by Saipro(m): 7:06pm On Nov 16, 2017
NiyiOmoIyunade:
Two separate issues bros.
.....

For the fan always on or off setting, I suspect Saipro has made good use of the Install CD bundled with his Mustpower and has found a way to make the inverter talk to his PC and thereby effect custom settings - I am waiting for him to give the house the low down if this be the case.
Nothing so fanciful bro.
Since warranties are moot, I wasted no time in cracking open my first two MustPower inverters (24V and 48V) to ensure they stop the normal 60o - 65oC design operating temperature range (lower temperatures generally guarantee longer lifespan). Cutting and splicing the the negative of the fan to the core negative/ground did the trick. Alas, idle consumption rose 50%. Reverted the next morning for one (as a control) and the next week for the other. Both are still alive showing no imminent sign of demise though the 48V has be sent to the store and replaced with another 24V model
Re: Solar Energy, A Complement To FTA by Saipro(m): 7:07pm On Nov 16, 2017
Ativ:
If one uses the LVD to simply disconnect loads, the inverter continues running but self-consumption of the inverter may continuously discharge the battery below safe levels.
If one uses a device such as this, https://www.victronenergy.com/battery_protect/battery-protect , the battery connection to the inverter is opened and the inverter stops work. However, I don't know how safe it is to disconnect the battery while the inverter is working.

Like Pranil stated, it is probably easier to replace with an inverter with an inbuilt adjustable LVD.

You could use MustPower inverters in energy saving mode with minimal risk of deep battery discharge
Re: Solar Energy, A Complement To FTA by Saipro(m): 7:32pm On Nov 16, 2017
JohnKester:


I am having similar experience with 7.5KVA Prag. It was running normally and the both the DC and AC fans were running intermittently as needed according to the specified temperature. However, for a while now the fans have been running simultaneously at the highest speeds. At such times, the consumption would increase dramatically up to 3 or 4KW when actual load is less than 1KW, without there being any additional loads. The load can only be eliminated when the inverter is switched off and back on. Once the fans start running, the charging from the PV also drops, I guess because of the gigantic self-consumption of the inverter!
Cheers

Try everything thus far advised on the forum. All are safe and easy to do. The three times I've had such issues were each time
(1) a 48V MustPower inverter. Your Prag has inner workings very similar and I suspect (know) is 48V
(2) a cross-talk between earth and live or earth and neutral lines in the home wiring

Three out of three times.
Re: Solar Energy, A Complement To FTA by kiekie1(m): 11:26am On Nov 17, 2017
Saipro:


Try everything thus far advised on the forum. All are safe and easy to do. The three times I've had such issues were each time
(1) a 48V MustPower inverter. Your Prag has inner workings very similar and I suspect (know) is 48V
(2) a cross-talk between earth and live or earth and neutral lines in the home wiring

Three out of three times.

I guess his system is above 3000w ratings. He can simply contact me for a prag engineer mobile number for guidelines on how to trouble shoot as DIY has its limitations ...

1 Like

Re: Solar Energy, A Complement To FTA by JohnKester: 11:40am On Nov 17, 2017
Saipro:


Try everything thus far advised on the forum. All are safe and easy to do. The three times I've had such issues were each time
(1) a 48V MustPower inverter. Your Prag has inner workings very similar and I suspect (know) is 48V
(2) a cross-talk between earth and live or earth and neutral lines in the home wiring

Three out of three times.

Thanks Saipro. I will have the home wiring investigated too.

Cheers
kiekie1:


I guess his system is above 3000w ratings. He can simply contact me for a prag engineer mobile number for guidelines on how to trouble shoot as DIY has its limitations ...

Thanks Kiekie1.

Kindly drop the number here so I can contact him. I am sure others would benefit from the information.

Cheers
Re: Solar Energy, A Complement To FTA by idsolar(m): 2:39pm On Nov 17, 2017
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Re: Solar Energy, A Complement To FTA by zeestone99(m): 3:48pm On Nov 17, 2017
pdozie:
Please - who knows where one can repair/fix SUKAM and G-Power inverters?

The number I sent u wud do, u can always contact me for more info.. Enjoy ur day
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Re: Solar Energy, A Complement To FTA by foonshur(m): 6:15pm On Nov 17, 2017
@all... found this after searching further. https://www.victronenergy.com/blog/2016/08/15/batteryprotect-new-instructional-videos/
but this has opened the door to a whole new question now... is it safe to install something like this between the battery and the inverter, where the supply will be cut off to the inverter while it is working??
Re: Solar Energy, A Complement To FTA by makavele: 7:05pm On Nov 17, 2017
foonshur:
@all... found this after searching further. https://www.victronenergy.com/blog/2016/08/15/batteryprotect-new-instructional-videos/
but this has opened the door to a whole new question now... is it safe to install something like this between the battery and the inverter, where the supply will be cut off to the inverter while it is working??

It is rather not healthy cutting off power abruptly. But heck, it's not a new phenomenon . . .
How many times have you experienced watching TV and NEPA just goes like that?
Everything turns off abruptly ... TV, fridge, lights, everything ..
it's not a new thing to behold; if you grew up in Nigeria
Re: Solar Energy, A Complement To FTA by kiekie1(m): 7:33pm On Nov 17, 2017
foonshur:
@all... found this after searching further. https://www.victronenergy.com/blog/2016/08/15/batteryprotect-new-instructional-videos/
but this has opened the door to a whole new question now... is it safe to install something like this between the battery and the inverter, where the supply will be cut off to the inverter while it is working??

Hello, why go through all this stress for just low battery cut off at a preset dc volt , most inverters like prag ,A&E, cyberpower , magnum etc have these features already inbuilt .. You might not like the victron battery protect on the short run if it keeps disconnecting your battery bank whilst on inverter mode . I rarely experience all this because my inverter has a user friendly "depth of discharge dip settings" , reasonable battery bank size and solar array etc ... It all depends on your choice tho !

1 Like

Re: Solar Energy, A Complement To FTA by pranil(m): 10:25pm On Nov 17, 2017
foonshur:
@all... found this after searching further. https://www.victronenergy.com/blog/2016/08/15/batteryprotect-new-instructional-videos/
but this has opened the door to a whole new question now... is it safe to install something like this between the battery and the inverter, where the supply will be cut off to the inverter while it is working??

It is perfectly safe for the inverter DC input to be abruptly cut off. It just stops working. May take few milliseconds to discharge capacitors but the AC supply dies instnatly. if you notice most of the inverters have a fixed input voltage unlike charge controllers which can handle multiple voltages 12/24/48 etc.,

This happens in my case regularly
1. I have a pure inverter 48 V 350 VA which supplies only critical loads like server /modem etc - (kind of UPS with Giant Battery). I Just switch off the DC input to shut it down ( the switch on inverter is tiny and I cannot remember which side to push for power saving and which side for off)

2. The other scenario almost happens daily with my microinverter - these inverters are connected directly to solar panel DC and not battery that means they switch off and switch on every day with sunset/sunrise and see wide fluctuations in voltage


if your inverter has Hardwired ON off siwtch ( like sukam or Prag) you might want to considering wiring a DC low volatge relay conact in parallel so that on Low volatge the inverter just switches off like pressing the off button

1 Like

Re: Solar Energy, A Complement To FTA by Saipro(m): 8:16am On Nov 18, 2017
makavele:


It is rather not healthy cutting off power abruptly. But heck, it's not a new phenomenon . . .
How many times have you experienced watching TV and NEPA just goes like that?
Everything turns off abruptly ... TV, fridge, lights, everything ..
it's not a new thing to behold; if you grew up in Nigeria

My backup home inverter with specs 24V 1.5kVA (980W) with good overload and surge handling capabilities and reasonably low idle consumption has a 40A DC breaker fitted into the the input circuitry. The breaker doesn't trip with surge loads like compressors and motors but will do so with irons and heating elements. Instant cut-off. Occurs before the inbuilt overload circuitry trip-off has a chance to activate. Happens once or twice a week when someone forgets we're on "night mode". Reset the breaker and life continues.

I don't know of any brand which currently suffers due to DC input interruption. Inverters are buit rugged like that.

2 Likes

Re: Solar Energy, A Complement To FTA by Saipro(m): 8:42am On Nov 18, 2017
NiyiOmoIyunade:
All lead acid batteries benefit from desulfation because inherent to their design, they will always suffer from positive grid/plate corrosion and sulfation during the discharge and recharge process - in fact the very act of recharging a depleted lead acid battey implies desulfation.

......

You can also buy a battery desulfator e.g PowerPulse or BLS (Battery Life Saver) to assist in keeping your batteries healthy. I warrant to you though that in 8 years of using these desulfator devices I AM STILL UNDECIDED if they actually work!!! Sometimes they seem to perform a miracle and sometimes they appear useless - I know though that I will not buy any new ones apart from the ones I already have.

All in all, a very long reply to a very short question - I hope it is of help grin

Battery desulphators are like snake oil; at times, they're the best thing since manna from heaven. At other times, they seem pointless. They've worked wonders for most of my dying batteries but for some others, no benefit. I guess that could be attributed to a lot more giong wrong with batteries than mere sulphation issues (mossing, bulged/dead plates, bridges and short circuits, outright expiry, etc.)
Re: Solar Energy, A Complement To FTA by NiyiOmoIyunade(m): 9:26am On Nov 18, 2017
This then is the million dollar question - are the successful battery recoveries we are able to perform due to isolating the batteries and giving them a full charge and thereby allowing the sulfur on the plates to go back into the electrolyte solution or are they due to the workings of the desulfators we attach? If desulfators indeed work, to what degree 10%, 50%, 100%?

Where there are other issues like you mentioned below, we obviously get no joy either with attempting a full charge or with desulfation grin

Like someone on this forum said to me once - 'a dead battery is a dead battery'

I am happy that Lithium batteries are now trending and getting deployed more and more everyday - we can finally move away from the centuries old lead acid battery technology and words like ' battery sulfation' will be things we read about in dusty old textbooks and online archives. grin


Saipro:


Battery desulphators are like snake oil; at times, they're the best thing since manna from heaven. At other times, they seem pointless. They've worked wonders for most of my dying batteries but for some others, no benefit. I guess that could be attributed to a lot more giong wrong with batteries than mere sulphation issues (mossing, bulged/dead plates, bridges and short circuits, outright expiry, etc.)

1 Like

Re: Solar Energy, A Complement To FTA by NiyiOmoIyunade(m): 10:03am On Nov 18, 2017
I remember Oga Chris mentioned some Axpert inverters he had in production which failed when the end-users flipped the battery breaker while the inverter was 'inverting'.

I also had a Zinox (similar to Axpert) which died once after the breaker tripped due to an overload condition - it also had an internal component failure at the exact same moment so no way to know if the battery breaker tripping caused the internal component failure or if the internal short was what tripped the battery breaker grin

Most inverters I know you can safely trip the battery breaker without issues but certainly it is not the manufacturers' intention that the breaker should trip regularly/daily (this is for those who would want to use tripping the battery breaker as a low voltage disconnect mechanism).

Oga Pranil's suggestion still seems to me most workable long term if one is technically savvy enough to pull it off - personally I am not very strong at electronics and I hate to open a factory sealed equipment to tweak it - after it fails by itself then it is a different matter and all bets are off because at that point I experiment freely.

Saipro:


My backup home inverter with specs 24V 1.5kVA (980W) with good overload and surge handling capabilities and reasonably low idle consumption has a 40A DC breaker fitted into the the input circuitry. The breaker doesn't trip with surge loads like compressors and motors but will do so with irons and heating elements. Instant cut-off. Occurs before the inbuilt overload circuitry trip-off has a chance to activate. Happens once or twice a week when someone forgets we're on "night mode". Reset the breaker and life continues.

I don't know of any brand which currently suffers due to DC input interruption. Inverters are buit rugged like that.
Re: Solar Energy, A Complement To FTA by kiekie1(m): 10:05am On Nov 18, 2017
Saipro:


My backup home inverter with specs 24V 1.5kVA (980W) with good overload and surge handling capabilities and reasonably low idle consumption has a 40A DC breaker fitted into the the input circuitry. The breaker doesn't trip with surge loads like compressors and motors but will do so with irons and heating elements. Instant cut-off. Occurs before the inbuilt overload circuitry trip-off has a chance to activate. Happens once or twice a week when someone forgets we're on "night mode". Reset the breaker and life continues.

I don't know of any brand which currently suffers due to DC input interruption. Inverters are buit rugged like that.

These are different points but a nice example .. In your analysis , your 40a DC breaker installed in your american inverter serves as an " overload control breaker" but it dosnt affect anything whilst it trips! Yes , but does it automatically "reset" to recharge your batteries when grid supply is available ? Does it restart after trip when it senses charge voltage from mppt / solar source ? Its a manual approach I must say... DOD settings are mostly automated in most systems and it resets itself . .

Note : Saipro, the 1.5kva inverter you have has a low battery cut off (21-21.5v) instead of 20v as you see on most Chinese inverters .. Take time to observe as its considerably okay alongside it's high surge capability & self low idle power consumption which is excellent !!!

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