A renowned historian, Prof. Banji Akintoye, tells TOBI AWORINDE that the Awori were the first settlers and owners of Lagos

What is your take on the ownership of Lagos?

When people say ownership, I find that difficult to understand because ownership belongs to the people who first settled in it. And the people who first settled in Lagos — I don’t think anybody is disputing that they are the Awori subgroup of the Yoruba nation. The Awori are a subgroup of the Yoruba, just as the Ijebu, Ikale, and Ekiti are subgroups. Those are the people who first settled in Lagos with the Ijebu close to them towards the North and East and the Egbado close to them towards the North and West. So, I don’t think there is anybody disputing that. In fairness to the Oba of Lagos, I don’t think he’s saying any other group but the Awori are the owners of Lagos because there is no basis for saying that. What he has been saying is that at some point in the history of Lagos — not when Lagos was founded as a human settlement, but many centuries later after Lagos had become a kingdom — people who first settled in these places were not kingdoms; we know that from Yoruba history. We know it from the Edo history too. The first Edo people who settled east of Yorubaland were not a kingdom; they were just a scattered people in the forest. The Yoruba were scattered people in the forest too. It was not until more than 3,000 years that kingdoms began to emerge in these forests among the Yoruba first, then among the Edo, and so on. And it wasn’t until the kingdoms had existed for hundreds of years that the Edo had contact with the kingdom of Lagos and became involved in the royal family of Lagos.

Does that mean there was a kingdom in Lagos before Oba Ado and the Bini came to Lagos?

Of course, there was an Awori kingdom in Lagos before any contact with the Bini. Let me put the story a little clearly. The Yoruba, Edo, Igbo, Urhobo, Nupe, Tiv, Igala, Idoma, and so on, from our archeological research and linguistic research, we believe that though all those peoples evolved along the banks of the Middle Niger up to the confluence with the Benue and that at some point in 3000-2000 BC they began to spread out from there and gradually, the Yoruba, Edo, Nupe, Igbo, Igala, Idoma, Igbere evolved, and so on. People then went out roughly from 3000 to 1000 BC, spread out and gradually occupied the country that became the Aro. The Yoruba, which happened to be the largest of these groups, spread out roughly southwards and westwards and occupied what is now Yorubaland, from the Yoruba in Kogi, west of the Niger, that is, Lokoja — southwards, all the way to the coast, what is now the islands of Lagos and westwards into what is now Benin Republic, Togo Republic and even a little bit of Ghana. That’s the Yoruba homeland. Every group had its own homeland. The Edo had its own homeland, a little smaller than that of the Yoruba, to the east of the Yoruba. And there were no kingdoms; these were just people that were coming as agricultural communities, evolving and getting better. About 900 AD, the Yoruba started to evolve kingdoms; they ruled themselves by kingdoms and the first kingdom to be created was Ife. From Ife, people went out and created other kingdoms in the Yoruba forest. The kings were not the creators of the people. The people were (already) there. So, it is not that the king is the owner of the people; the people were there. A prince would come from Ife, establish a kingdom among the people and become the king of the people.

When you say, for instance, ‘the Owa of Ilesa,’ the Owa of Ilesa did not create Ijesa people. The Ijesa people were there. The Owa of Ilesa came from Ife. Or you say ‘the Ewi of Ado Ekiti.’ The Ewi is not the creator of the people of Ado. The people were there. A prince came from Ife and became the ruler over the people. That’s how the kingdoms were created in Yorubaland. The same thing (in) Benin; the Edo people were there in their own share of the forest and then, according to Edo and Yoruba traditions, a prince came from Ife and helped the Edo to establish the type of kingdom that the Yoruba were establishing at about the same time.

What do you make of the argument that when the Awori came to Lagos, the Benin royalty had established some form of influence?

There was no influence at all. When the Yoruba people came, there were no people in the forest. They took it over. When the Edo came to their own part of the country, there were no people there. They took over that country. When the Igbo came to their part of the forest, they took over the forest. There was nobody living there before them at all. So, there was no Edo living anywhere beyond the Edo forest. It was later, when they founded a kingdom and the kingdom became strong — especially because, then, about 1450, the white man began to come along the coast of West Africa, establishing trade and so on — that the Edo kingdom became rich as a result of the trade because they had a little slice of the coast and a port from which the Europeans used to bring goods and so on. So, the Edo became a major trading people and that’s why they became strong. It was at that time that they began to have contact with other people; it was not before.

Are you saying the Awori kingdom preceded the Bini kingdom?

Of course! There was a kingdom in Aworiland just as there was a kingdom in other parts of Yorubaland. In fact, there were two kingdoms: there was the kingdom of Ota, which was older than the Lagos kingdom.

SUNDAY PUNCH has spoken to a number of Awori descendants, some of whom say the Awori people did not exist as a kingdom until they accepted the Bini royalty who created a form of government for the Awori. Is this accurate?

No, the Awori (already) had a kingdom. We don’t know exactly how it came that the Edo had a part in the government of the Awori kingdom. Apparently, we historians are different from people who tell stories of their parents, their families and so on. I have stories of my own family too. I come from the royal family in Ado Ekiti and I can tell stories and so on, but a historian looks at those stories, interprets them, relates them to stories from other places, looks for any documentary evidence that can be found — archeological evidence or evidence from historical linguistics — and you can put it together and create a story that is nearer the truth than any traditional stories that my parents might have told me. So, what you hear from a lot of people who are telling stories of Lagos are stories they heard from their parents. As a historian, I don’t say there is anything wrong with those stories, but I say they are incomplete as a means of interpreting the history of Lagos State because you have to bring other information that you know.

The information that we know, for instance, broadly, is what I have repeated; the various peoples of the West African coasts, especially the eastern parts of the West African coasts, starting from the Igbo in the east, to the Ijaw, the Yoruba, the Ebira, the Nupe, the Igala, the Idoma, and so on, all took possession of their part of what is now Nigeria at roughly the same period of history. Sometime before the fourth millennium — that is about 4000 BC—they started to take over those territories and the Yoruba went all the way to the coast. They came to the coast not only in Lagos; they came to the coast in what is now the Ilaje country, the southern part of Ondo. They came to the coast in a part of Ikale and in Itsekiri. The Itsekiri are Yoruba. So, the Yoruba were in all those places. Later, about the 9th Century AD, the Yoruba began to evolve kingdoms. That was a new development in their political history. So, kingdoms arose all over Yorubaland — and towns. The kingdom of Lagos was one of those Yoruba kingdoms that evolved from about the 9th Century AD to about 1600 AD. So, there was a Yoruba kingdom, that is, an Awori kingdom, in Lagos. There was an Awori kingdom in Isheri. There was an Awori kingdom in Ota which is believed to be the oldest.

Lagos was an Awori kingdom, but many centuries later, the trade with Europeans on the coast made the Edo kingdom of Benin strong. They became interested in the trade along the coast, so as to be able to take more part along the coast. It was at that time that they first came to Lagos. And they were not the first people to come to Lagos to take advantage of the trade. The Ijebu, the Ilaje, the Ijaw and others came. So, there was nothing different about them (Edo).

First of all, there was an Awori people who occupied the coast — I want you to be clear — from about the fourth millenium BC until about the 9th Century AD. Among the Awori people on the coast on the island of Lagos, there evolved a kingdom, one of the Yoruba kingdoms evolving all over Yorubaland. About the same time, the Benin kingdom also evolved in its own part of the forest. It was not until many centuries later that the Benin kingdom had contact with the Lagos kingdom. To make it a little clearer, if the Lagos kingdom evolved, say, in the 12th Century AD, which was about the same period the Benin kingdom was evolving in its own place, how do you then say that it was the Bini who then came to create Lagos kingdom. They didn’t create Lagos kingdom. The Awori people created their own kingdom. That’s the truth of the matter and we know the names that they had in their traditions as the founder of their kingdom and so on. But in about 1600, now with Benin a strong and rich state from the trade, they came into contact with Lagos and we don’t know exactly what happened. There are all sorts of stories. Some people say, ‘The king of Benin came and conquered the Lagos kingdom!’ There is no truth in that. There was a large Benin trading community in Lagos, just as there were large Ijebu and Ijaw trading communities in Lagos, because Lagos was becoming attractive as a place of trade. So, according to the stories that we historians hold to be nearer the truth, there developed a succession dispute between two Awori princes for the throne, and somehow — it’s not clear — the Edo community assisted one of the princes and it was in the year 1600 AD.

How can you say categorically that 1600 AD was the year this happened?

We have something that a German, who was a trader in Lagos in 1603, wrote about war in Lagos. He didn’t say that anybody came to invade Lagos. He said there was war in Lagos, and so, we historians say that is the succession dispute that became a war and the Edo community helped one prince against the other. And the Edo community became, in some way, part of the governance of the Lagos kingdom.

Do you think that willingness to help one of the princes was because of the economic gains by the Edo?

No, apparently it was some general sort of thing with people helping whatever side they wanted to.

So, it wasn’t about political or economic dominance?

No, not so much. So, about that time, the Edo became involved in the royal family of Lagos and a lot of Edo traditions and cultural accretions then came. For us to be able to study the history of our people, we historians have to be able to read the archives of other people. So, I had to study Portuguese, a little bit of Spanish and Italian because we need to be able to read (their languages). These people came to our land so we can go after the little bits of information they had on our land in their archives, in their countries. For instance, a Portuguese trader in Lagos in 1533 mentioned Ijebu Ode. So, I had to go and read it there. He said, ‘From this point, about 10 leagues to the interior, there is a large town called Geebou’ — that is Ijebu — ‘and it is surrounded by a great wall.’ Ijebu Ode has one of the largest city walls on earth. It already had those walls by the time this man, Pacheco Pereira, came to Lagos in 1533. So, the duty of the historian is to try and tell the people our history and what we know about Lagos history is that it became a great trading centre; people from all sorts of places, even people from outside what is now Nigeria — Ajah people from places like Epe, Ouidah, Allada and others came to Lagos to trade too. It was as a result of that that the kingdom of Badagry emerged in about 1730.

Having said that, there are certain things that I must say: first, all this talk about Edo and Yoruba as if they were different and hostile is not true. The Edo and the Yoruba were very culturally close. In fact, until the 20th Century, the information at our disposal as historians is that the Edo and the Yoruba didn’t really see each other as different people; they were just one people: Edo people all (were) over Yorubaland and Yoruba traders everywhere in Edo. According to one of our historians who has studied the matter, even the palace of Benin was bilingual for most of its history.

What languages were they speaking?

They spoke the Edo and Yoruba languages. And according to the Edo and Yoruba traditions, the royal family of Benin is part Yoruba, part Edo. A Yoruba prince went from Ife and helped to create a kingdom. We Yoruba don’t say, ‘He went and conquered Edo.’ The idea of conquest is attractive to young people. But the historian knows that things don’t always happen by conquest. No doubt, he (the Yoruba prince turned Edo king) was a great warrior because later, he went and created another kingdom in Yorubaland; he was the same prince who went and created the kingdom of Oyo Ile in the north of Yorubaland, which became the centre of a great Yoruba empire: this (the prince) was Oranmiyan. And when he had settled down, he said he was going home and he had a son who was old enough to be king — some young man, maybe a teenager — he asked them, ‘Make this one your king because I’m going to my own people.’ That is the tradition we have from both Yoruba people and Edo people. The oldest writing on it was by Egharevba, an Edo historian, in the 1920s. He wrote that the man came, helped to establish a kingdom for the Edo people because they were fighting one another when he came. He made some people friends, subdued those who were troublesome, created a kingdom and later left, leaving his son who was of a Benin woman to be their king.

So, it’s all mixed up and this story of Lagos — the Yoruba and the Edo do not see each other as different at all. They think they are just one people and there is a lot of intermixture between the Yoruba and the Edo. The Yoruba monarchical system is actually what they adapted. Yoruba and Edo culture and arts are all mixed together. The similarities are very profound. I think what we should be talking about really are the similarities and closeness, rather than trying to create a picture of divergence, difference and conflict. Between the Edo and the Yoruba, there was no such thing.

There were large numbers of Edo people in many Yoruba towns. I can sit here and tell you the Yoruba towns where there were large Edo trading communities. In Akure, Ado Ekiti, Owo, many of the towns in Akoko, there were large Edo trading communities. And then, in Benin, there were large Yoruba trading communities there. The two peoples intermixed, so if an Edo became king in a place, it didn’t look odd to the people. The king of Ikere Ekiti can claim to come from Benin but he doesn’t talk about it. He’s the king of Ikere and he doesn’t make the type of noise that we hear in Lagos. Or do we hear the Oba of Benin saying, ‘I was originally from Ife.’ He’s too busy exuding the pride that ‘I’m the king of Benin’ and I think that’s what the king of Lagos should learn to do — behave like the other kings from the Yoruba or Edo worlds who happen to be ruling among people who might not be originally ethnically their people but who are ruling among them and are therefore one of them.

If you’re ruling over the kingdom of Lagos, you’re a Lagos man and that’s the most important thing. The fact that you came from Benin is not important really. If you’re the king of Ikere, you’re the leader of the Ikere people and you don’t start to behave as if there is a dichotomy between you and the people you rule. Listen, the kings of Britain are from Germany. They don’t talk about their being German. That is the way the world is. I think that it’s a pity that in Lagos, people are talking about these things. It is of no importance. What is important to the world is that you are the king of this great city of Lagos.

What are your thoughts on the argument that Lagos is no man’s land?

It started during the colonial era because the British said Lagos was the capital of Nigeria and therefore when they were trying to create regions, they would not let it go to be part of any one region. So, it is everybody’s homeland; it would be everybody’s home. So, that was how the idea of ‘Lagos is no man’s land’ came to be. And some immature young people turned it around later, and so on. It’s nonsense, of course. Lagos belongs to the Awori section of the Yoruba nation. The Awori people created their own kingdom in Lagos. At some point in the history of that kingdom, Edo influence came into the royal family. That’s what we know and Lagos is not peculiar in that. There are many other places where Edo influence exists in the royal family and in the Edo royal family, also Benin — because they have only one major city; it’s the Yoruba who have towns everywhere. The Yoruba are the most urbanised people in the whole of black Africa. They have big towns everywhere. When the first visitors to the interior of Yorubaland did so in 1825, they were surprised to find that Yorubaland had more towns than European countries. Yoruba are the most urbanised people in the world. The circumstances that have created that, we don’t know. But we know that the Yoruba are among the most urbanised people on earth and they have been so for a long time. There is no town in Yorubaland that was created by the British. Just as there are towns all over Nigeria that were created by the British, there are no such towns in Yorubaland. All Yoruba towns are old towns. Some of them are a thousand years old. By the time the Europeans came to the coast of Yorubaland in the 1530s, Ijebu Ode was already more than 500 years old.

In the history of these kingdoms, there are all sorts of influence. People come from different places and become chiefs and so on. Some in a few places, they become rulers and so on. But the important thing is that whoever is ruler of a town is ruler of that town, pre-eminently. That is your most important credential. The fact that your ancestors might have come from somewhere is not important. The British queen knows that she is German but she doesn’t make a noise about it. She is the queen of England and that is the important thing. The Lagos king is the king of Lagos and that is the important thing. The earlier people learn to live with that, the better. One final thing I want to say is, there is a danger from this way of thinking and talking that Lagos could become polarised and some sort of political trouble could arise thereby in the future. I think the people who are promoting this must be very careful. It is in the interest of our future.

Copyright PUNCH.
All rights reserved. This material, and other digital content on this website, may not be reproduced, published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed in whole or in part without prior express written permission from PUNCH.

https://punchng.com/lagos-belongs-to-awori-the-bini-met-them-there-akintoye/amp/

Contact: theeditor@punchng.com
Cc: odumchi, lalasticlala, Fulaman198

Probably the most compelling interview I've read on the Lagos/Benin history

This is indepth

This is nonensical. History relies on historical documents, not feelings and ethnocentrism.
I have difficulties calling this guy a historian because he is not acting as such.
Thank God I studied in europe right from primary school, they were able to teach me the sense of the word history.
You can't tell a story which happened more than 1000 years ago without documents made 1000 years ago or archeological dicoveries.
Now this guy is talking about things he alledges happened 3000 years ago and he has nothing to back his claims except his degree ?!
That is not how history works, having a degree doesn't make you above scrutiny, your work is supposed to be seen and published with all the proof backing it just like in any other accademic field. You can't just start making things up because you have a doctorate in history. This is the reason nobody takes yoruba historians seriously.

First of all I can see that once again someone is making the assumption that the land belongs to those who settle in the land first.
Go and tell that to russia, england, france, america and all.
Appart from the fact that it is impossible to know "who settled there first" because that is a thing which took place thousands of years ago and nobody could write a document in that period to testify of what was going on, why should it be about "who settled first". Shouldn't it be about which pre-colonial country possessed the land ? In which pre-colonial country was the land ? That is the most objectif and answerable question.
It is a fact that the first map ever made of west africa shows lagos as being part of the Benin Kingdom and all pre-colonial maps testify to this fact.
That is a time span of more than 600 years.
But the crooks would rather turn the debate to some questions whose answer is inaccessible and answer with unverrrifyable stories.

Then you are not a serious person, when hearing "history" one must ask for proof.
If there is no proof then that is not history, you are being abused by a 419 story teller.
Anybody can come up with a story, which is why you should only take them seriousmy when they are backed by proof.

JAWBONE:
Probably the most compelling interview I've read on the Lagos/Benin history

historyworld031:
First of all I can see that once again someone is making the assumption that the land belongs to those who settle in the land first.
Go and tell that to russia, england, france, america and all.
Appart from the fact that it is impossible to know "who settled there first" because that is a thing which took place thousands of years ago and nobody could write a document in that period to testify of what was going on, why should it be about "who settled first". Shouldn't it be about which pre-colonial country possessed the land ? In which pre-colonial country was the land ? That is the most objectif and answerable question.
It is a fact that the first map ever made of west africa shows lagos as being part of the Benin Kingdom and all pre-colonial maps testify to this fact.
That is a time span of more than 600 years.
But the crooks would rather turn the debate to some questions whose answer is inaccessible and answer with unverrrifyable stories.

Awori have already told does fighting for Edo people should please if they know they are not yoruba that they can head back to there so called Edo Kingdom lols we are really proud of our yoruba lands. OSUN & OYO & LAGOS & ONDO & EKITI. (KWARA) Awori is the owner of Lagos. if people like keep yelling we yoruba grant all you bleeping dog freedom of speech tho but the Yoruba are waiting for you all stupid fool like you again hey shout your damn mouth Lagos belong to we thge yoruba you this silly nitwit and dotard what is the fucking problem with you people why you all motherfucker like south western so much trynna go develop your so call silly land leave us alone ooooooooo no shits we yoruba are waiting for you all bugger off our land Awori own Lagos Bleep your stupid benin kingdom lols oba of lagos will keep bowing to oni of ife till father come badass people

historyworld031:
This is nonensical. History relies on historical documents, not feelings and ethnocentrism.
I have difficulties calling this guy a historian because he is not acting as such.
Thank God I studied in europe right from primary school, they were able to teach me the sense of the word history.
You can't tell a story which happened more than 1000 years ago without documents made 1000 years ago or archeological dicoveries.
Now this guy is talking about things he alledges happened 3000 years ago and he has nothing to back his claims except his degree ?!
That is not how history works, having a degree doesn't make you above scrutiny, your work is supposed to be seen and published with all the proof backing it just like in any other accademic field. You can't just start making things up because you have a doctorate in history. This is the reason nobody takes yoruba historians seriously.

This Fool again


I am almost sure this whole "studied in France" talk is a lie. You dont see other people on this forum going about making noise about studying in Europe. You don't know where I study so shut the hell up about studying in Europe...nobody cares, what are you doing with your "European education"? After all your so call French education you still aren't exposed enough to let go of petty Nigerian ethnic sentiments?

Worse you are not trained in the field of history or any form of social science.

Akintoye happens to be one of the most reputable historians in West Africa. His book on Yoruba history happens to be used all over Europe in African Studies lectures. But you? Who are you? Who takes you seriously?
Some loser slowpoke comes here cus of the privilege of the internet to spew thrash about an actual intellectual

OK

Oh, I pity you.
Nigerian education is worthless, that is why all the elite take their kids to school in europe or america.
Sorry but you can't compete with me.
Here is a brief lesson on history for you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSrI7pVo4lo
If you are not a skeptic then you have no place in the world of research, you are worshipping the likes of akintoya without putting their "work" to scrutini. That is why you can't be taken seriously Akintoye is abusing you with the oldest 419 scam in the world.
This reminds me of that doctor who kept prescribing expensive treatments to his patients who never questionned him because he had the best degree. It went on for a while and the doctor got immensely rich until one of his patients accidentally discovered that his "best doctor" was indeed the best doctor but he was running a scam on his patients in order to get rich.
I don't know your akintoye, I have never heard of him in any history lesson in europe, and I don't know any professor who has heard of him.
Your akintoye is nothing but a story teller, he should be writing best sellers in the science fiction section.

macof:



This Fool again


I am almost sure this whole "studied in France" talk is a lie. You dont see other people on this forum going about making noise about studying in Europe. You don't know where I study so shut the hell up about studying in Europe...nobody cares, what are you doing with your "European education"? After all your so call French education you still aren't exposed enough to let go of petty Nigerian ethnic sentiments?

Worse you are not trained in the field of history or any form of social science.

Akintoye happens to be one of the most reputable historians in West Africa. His book on Yoruba history happens to be used all over Europe in African Studies lectures. But you? Who are you? Who takes you seriously?
Some loser slowpoke comes here cus of the privilege of the internet to spew thrash about an actual intellectual

Even the works of Albert Einstein get criticized, but hey "who be you", akintoye is above scrutini.
When I read a maths book, I prove every theorem myself and I am very critical of the very qualified researchers who wrote the book, I even go to the extent of changeing some aspects of their work in order to change the orientation or to make it better. But hey akintoye is above scrutini, he is the god of history. yoruba education....

historyworld031:
Even the works of Albert Einstein get criticized, but hey "who be you", akintoye is above scrutini.
When I read a maths book, I prove every theorem myself and I am very critical of the very qualified researchers who wrote the book, I even go to the extent of changeing some aspects of their work in order to change the orientation or to make it better. But hey akintoye is above scrutini, he is the god of history. yoruba education....

Ibadan printing press

historyworld031:
Oh, I pity you.
Nigerian education is worthless, that is why all the elite take their kids to school in europe or america.
Sorry but you can't compete with me.
Here is a brief lesson on history for you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSrI7pVo4lo
If you are not a skeptic then you have no place in the world of research, you are worshipping the likes of akintoya without putting their "work" to scrutini. That is why you can't be taken seriously Akintoye is abusing you with the oldest 41 scam in the world.
This reminds me of that doctor who kept prescribing expensive treatments to his patients who never questionned him because he had the best degree. It went on for a while and the doctor got immensely rich until one of his patients accidentally discovered that his "best doctor" was indeed the best doctor but he was running a scam on his patients in order to get rich.
I don't know your akintoye, I have never heard of him in any history lesson in europe, and I don't know any professor who has heard of him.
Your akintoye is nothing but a story teller, he should be writing best sellers in the science fiction section.

pity me? see bolo

ive told you to stop acting like you know historical science. Leave history to prople who study it and actually have a say in the discipline

Your video doesn't buttress your point
The video emphasized what every deligent history student already knows - "source material"
Without source material any tale is just a tale not history... that's what I do, I don't go making up history like some Ekaledehan story you and many bini people peddle without recourse for "source material" or evidence to back up said source

And when we talk about sub Saharan historical research we look into oral traditions as the primary source material, for evidence we examine oral traditions from other places, rituals and objects, language etc

Akintoye is not your father's mate, if you don't know him that's because you are not into history. Those who are historians have endorsed his books, a simple Google search will help your life.
Lemme ask you mention 3 reputable historians who would trump Akintoye on Yoruba history? If you don't know something just shut up, nairaland forming upon what you cannot be rewarded for

Why not face the medicine you claim to study in France?

oral tradition is not history and language is not history neither.
If this is how you guys deal with history in nigeria then you are not at the same level with yeour peers in europe, america, russia, asia and all.
Oral "history" is nothing but tales mostly fabricated.
Just like the legend of hercules was also an oral "history" and the tales of the wonders of Odin was also an oral "history".
Real history relies on historical documents, not tales.
You guys are not serious.
The funny thing is that there actually are enough historical documents to go back at least 600 years, what type of fooool would ignore those documents and focus on tales ?
Yoruba have no history, all you have are some incredible tales of things which you alledge took place thousands of years ago and got to your knowledge by oduduwa magic.
By the way, father christmass is also an oral "history".
Oduduwa is the yoruba "father christmas" to me.
You know nothing about history, go to europe and get into an internship with a history lab, see how they conduct research and try to emulate that instead of merely writing down tales of sun and moon light.

macof:
pity me? see bolo

ive told you to stop acting like you know historical science. Leave history to prople who study it and actually have a say in the discipline

Your video doesn't buttress your point
The video emphasized what every deligent history student already knows - "source material"
Without source material any tale is just a tale not history... that's what I do, I don't go making up history like some Ekaledehan story you and many bini people peddle without recourse for "source material" or evidence to back up said source

And when we talk about sub Saharan historical research we look into oral traditions as the primary source material, for evidence we examine oral traditions from other places, rituals and objects, language etc

Akintoye is not your father's mate, if you don't know him that's because you are not into history. Those who are historians have endorsed his books, a simple Google search will help your life.
Lemme ask you mention 3 reputable historians who would trump Akintoye on Yoruba history? If you don't know something just shut up, nairaland forming upon what you cannot be rewarded for

Why not face the medicine you claim to study in France?

historyworld031:
.
By the way, father christmass is also an oral "history".
Oduduwa is the yoruba "father christmas" to me.

[s]

macof:
pity me? see bolo

ive told you to stop acting like you know historical science. Leave history to prople who study it and actually have a say in the discipline

Your video doesn't buttress your point
The video emphasized what every deligent history student already knows - "source material"
Without source material any tale is just a tale not history... that's what I do, I don't go making up history like some Ekaledehan story you and many bini people peddle without recourse for "source material" or evidence to back up said source

And when we talk about sub Saharan historical research we look into oral traditions as the primary source material, for evidence we examine oral traditions from other places, rituals and objects, language etc

Akintoye is not your father's mate, if you don't know him that's because you are not into history. Those who are historians have endorsed his books, a simple Google search will help your life.
Lemme ask you mention 3 reputable historians who would trump Akintoye on Yoruba history? If you don't know something just shut up, nairaland forming upon what you cannot be rewarded for

Why not face the medicine you claim to study in France?

[/s]

Stop typing rubbish!..... Go school you nor Gree

this guy macof wants to tell me that africa is so special and different from the rest of the world that research can not be conducted normally in africa, the rules have to be changed and things which would be totally not acceptable anywhere else in the world should be the norm in africa. How dumb are you ? It is this kind of mediocrity in the head which makes nigerian universities to rank among the worse in the world.
This is why you and your yoruba "historians" are considered crooks and story tellers in europe and elsewhere.

historyworld031:
oral tradition is not history and language is not history neither.
If this is how you guys deal with history in nigeria then you are not at the same level with yeour peers in europe, america, russia, asia and all.
Oral "history" is nothing but tales mostly fabricated.
Just like the legend of hercules was also an oral "history" and the tales of the wonders of Odin was also an oral "history".
Real history relies on historical documents, not tales.
You guys are not serious.
The funny thing is that there actually are enough historical documents to go back at least 600 years, what type of fooool would ignore those documents and focus on tales ?
Yoruba have no history, all you have are some incredible tales of things which you alledge took place thousands of years ago and got to your knowledge by oduduwa magic.
By the way, father christmass is also an oral "history".
Oduduwa is the yoruba "father christmas" to me.
You know nothing about history, go to europe and get into an internship with a history lab, see how they conduct research and try to emulate that instead of merely writing down tales of sun and moon light.

see mr. doctor turned historian

oya tell us how to tell african history since the real historians are wrong according to you

and answer my earlier question - mention 3 historians who are more recognized than Akintoye in African studies particularly Yoruba concentrated History. To just do justice to this post, lemme add that Oral history is the foundation of the discipline of History, before anything is ever written in a book as a historical text, it passes around first - Orally!
The legendary father of History - Herodotus relied greatly on orally passed information, so did ibn Battuta

shut up about this europe nonsense; as i said before, I'm sure you are not in Europe but some village in Edo or Delta state spewing trash cause data is cheap in Nigeria

it doesnt matter what oduduwa is to you, what matters is what experts think, you are not relevant...sorry!

I have read Professor Akintoye's works, both in international peer-reviewed journals and in book collections and I am still looking for his book 'History of the Yoruba People'. There is no doubt he is an erudite scholar of international standing.

But I think he is being a little bit economical with the truth here. When the interviewer asked him if the Kingdom of Lagos existed before the arrival of Benin people, I think it was obvious he was asking about Eko on the island and not about Isheri and Ota on the mainland. We know Aworis had organised small kingdoms in Isheri and Ota before Benin incursion, but I see no evidence that they had established a Kingdom and a dynasty at Eko pre-Benin contact.

I am sure the venerable professor knows this too and was just being dodgy.

SicilianMafia:
[s][/s]

Stop typing rubbish!..... Go school you nor Gree

look at this piece of trash who is still trying to find his way in life. you must be an idiotic slowpoke

You still don't understand that you guys are merely scribes of urban legends.
You do not qualify as historians.
You know as much about history as my 7 year old nephew. Oh my nephew is going to be pissed when he reads this. Nephew, I meant no insult to you.

macof:


see mr. doctor turned historian

oya tell us how to tell african history since the real historians are wrong according to you

and answer my earlier question - mention 3 historians who are more recognized than Akintoye in African studies particularly Yoruba concentrated History. To just do justice to this post, lemme add that Oral history is the foundation of the discipline of History, before anything is ever written in a book as a historical text, it passes around first - Orally!
The legendary father of History - Herodotus relied greatly on orally passed information, so did ibn Battuta

shut up about this europe nonsense; as i said before, I'm sure you are not in Europe but some village in Edo or Delta state spewing trash cause data is cheap in Nigeria

it doesnt matter what oduduwa is to you, what matters is what experts think, you are not relevant...sorry!

don't claim to know something if no proof was shown to you.
Lagos was part of the Benin Kingdom. That is the only Verrifyable fact and here is proof:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3IlUMUGUorw


Some ancient maps of Benin Kingdom:

This one dates to around 1699:
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8595525w/f1.item.r=Benin.zoom

An other map of Benin made in the 17th century once again:
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b530530714.r=Benin?rk=214593;2

An other map of Benin from the 17th century:
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8595583b.r=Benin?rk=193134;0

This one date to the 19th century:
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8469390z/f1.item.r=Benin.zoom

An other map from the 17th century:
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8595527q/f1.item.r=Benin.zoom

The story about the awori doesn't come with any sort of proof.
Also when did some people start referring to themselves as yoruba ?

RedboneSmith:
I have read Professor Akintoye's works, both in international peer-reviewed journals and in book collections and I am still looking for his book 'History of the Yoruba People'. There is no doubt he is an erudite scholar of international standing.

But I think he is being a little bit economical with the truth here. When the interviewer asked him if the Kingdom of Lagos existed before the arrival of Benin people, I think it was obvious he was asking about Eko on the island and not about Isheri and Ota on the mainland. We know Aworis had organised small kingdoms in Isheri and Ota before Benin incursion, but I see no evidence that they had established a Kingdom and a dynasty at Eko pre-Benin contact.

I am sure the venerable professor knows this too and was just being dodgy.

RedboneSmith:
I have read Professor Akintoye's works, both in international peer-reviewed journals and in book collections and I am still looking for his book 'History of the Yoruba People'. There is no doubt he is an erudite scholar of international standing.

But I think he is being a little bit economical with the truth here. When the interviewer asked him if the Kingdom of Lagos existed before the arrival of Benin people, I think it was obvious he was asking about Eko on the island and not about Isheri and Ota on the mainland. We know Aworis had organised small kingdoms in Isheri and Ota before Benin incursion, but I see no evidence that they had established a Kingdom and a dynasty at Eko pre-Benin contact.

I am sure the venerable professor knows this too and was just being dodgy.

finally, somebody that actually can talk history.

You are right as I would say he dodged questions, i feel the interviewer was more interested in 16th century events rather than the Yoruba, Edo, Igbo etc split he seemed to hammer on

historyworld031:
You still don't understand that you guys are merely scribes of urban legends.
You do not qualify as historians.
You know as much about history as my 7 year old nephew. Oh my nephew is going to be pissed when he reads this. Nephew, I meant no insult to you.

so in other words... you don't know how to tell african history or any historian at all who can?

historyworld031:
don't claim to know something if no proof was shown to you.
Lagos was part of the Benin Kingdom. That is the only Verrifyable fact and here is proof:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3IlUMUGUorw


Some ancient maps of Benin Kingdom:

This one dates to around 1699:
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8595525w/f1.item.r=Benin.zoom

An other map of Benin made in the 17th century once again:
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b530530714.r=Benin?rk=214593;2

An other map of Benin from the 17th century:
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8595583b.r=Benin?rk=193134;0

This one date to the 19th century:
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8469390z/f1.item.r=Benin.zoom

An other map from the 17th century:
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8595527q/f1.item.r=Benin.zoom

The story about the awori doesn't come with any sort of proof.
Also when did some people start referring to themselves as yoruba ?

That video is proof of what? The poet in the video doesn't even know Benin history much. Which Benin Kingdom traded gold with the Europeans?

I posted pre-colonial maps, that is history.
You see, documents made when the events which you are studying took place.
Not doculents writen in the 1930's or 1970's pretending to describe tings which allegedly happened 3000 years ago without any archeological proof and without any sort of proof.
It is even worse when the doucments are prodused today, with no proof whatsoever.
You can talk about yoruba stories, but not yoruba "history", you have none.

macof:
so in other words... you don't know how to tell african history or any historian at all who can?

The video is just a video.
The poet is merely saying things which were recorded by the portuguese or which took place during the war against the british empire.
These are recorded and easilly verrifyable things even backed by the bronz which you see in the background (that is also history).
These are not "oral history".
Checkout the maps, that is the most important.

RedboneSmith:


That video is proof of what? The poet in the video doesn't even know Benin history much. Which Benin Kingdom traded gold with the Europeans?

historyworld031:
don't claim to know something if no proof was shown to you.
Lagos was part of the Benin Kingdom. That is the only Verrifyable fact and here is proof:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3IlUMUGUorw


Some ancient maps of Benin Kingdom:

This one dates to around 1699:
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8595525w/f1.item.r=Benin.zoom

An other map of Benin made in the 17th century once again:
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b530530714.r=Benin?rk=214593;2

An other map of Benin from the 17th century:
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8595583b.r=Benin?rk=193134;0

This one date to the 19th century:
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8469390z/f1.item.r=Benin.zoom

An other map from the 17th century:
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8595527q/f1.item.r=Benin.zoom

The story about the awori doesn't come with any sort of proof.
Also when did some people start referring to themselves as yoruba ?

all your maps and video prove nothing for you.

stop spamming with all this repeated links that you post everywhere on nairaland that are actually irrelevant to your argument. Nowhere in your maps is it portrayed that Benin controlled Lagos

I'm beginning to think you have some form of mental disorder in its early stages

here's one of the maps, lagos area is clearly separated from Bini

You are funny, learn how to use all the options of the website hosting the map, zoom a little bit and notice Benin is written on Lagos.
Here is one thing which will help you in the future: always be very specific when talking about something.
I posted numerous maps, precise which one you are talking about.

macof:
all your maps and video prove nothing for you.

stop spamming with all this repeated links that you post everywhere on nairaland that are actually irrelevant to your argument. Nowhere in your maps is it portrayed that Benin controlled Lagos

I'm beginning to think you have some form of mental disorder in its early stages

here's one of the maps, lagos area is clearly separated from Bini

historyworld031:
this guy macof wants to tell me that africa is so special and different from the rest of the world that research can not be conducted normally in africa, the rules have to be changed and things which would be totally not acceptable anywhere else in the world should be the norm in africa. How dumb are you ? It is this kind of mediocrity in the head which makes nigerian universities to rank among the worse in the world.
This is why you and your yoruba "historians" are considered crooks and story tellers in europe and elsewhere.

stop assuming i study in a Nigerian university, you cannot know that
Btw. European and American Universities seek the services of Nigerian professors in African studies

I thought i taught you a little history about France (where you claim to live) the other time how the Franks taking over the land and the early culture of the Gauls was mostly oral history and family traditions before being written down

historyworld031:
You are funny, learn how to use all the options of the website hosting the map, zoom a little bit and notice Benin is written on Lagos.
Here is one thing which will help you in the future: always be very specific when talking about something.
I posted numerous maps, precise which one you are talking about.

All your maps ..none support your argument
stop spamming with links that have nothing to do with the thread...that should get you ban sef

It is people like soyinka which are being sought out, it is about african litterature and arts.
Nobody considers your akintoye a historian.
The best use of him would be as a story teller.
Eventhough these stories ar not actual history, they are still interesting.
Fiction is a form of litterature, I love fiction, but I hate when some call it history.
Have you finally zoomed on the map and noticed Benin written all over Lagos ?

macof:
stop assuming i study in a Nigerian university, you cannot know that
Btw. European and American Universities seek the services of Nigerian professors in African studies

I thought i taught you a little history about France (where you claim to live) the other time how the Franks taking over the land and the early culture of the Gauls was mostly oral history and family traditions before being written down