Henry240:
Land has to be re-distributed in South-Africa. The policy where only a minority white farmers own upwards of 80% of the land is un-acceptable. White South-Africans need to stop panicking anytime the issue of land comes up, instead a workable solution should be under-taken through sincere dialogue.

You can sell the farm or part of it, and still lease it from who ever purchases the land for your farming business.

nemesis4u:
From my experience on similar kind of issues not exact but close to same.

1.Any kind of correctional measures based on identification like race tribe ethnicity etc is counter productive , it will never stop .

Eg. If pink versus yellow , pink wins , later pink will start fighting among itself for same resources/doleouts and this will continue. Becz the system which supported pink will support divisive elements within pink . This is a harsh reality and fact.

2.Color based division will lead to -> tribal based division will lead to -> ethnic based division will lead to -> linguistic based division will lead to -> financial based division will lead to -> social division and will continue so on

3.if u give a person a fish , u make him dependent , but if u teach him to fish u make him independent. Without the skill set and interest of concerned individuals to utilize allocated resources, will lead to wastage and unproductivity. It will vary but will be on the higher side compared to no of people who will actually be able to utilize it.getting Ownership of resources is not the cure all.

4.financial heath and structure of a country is a fragile complex interconnected ecosystem. If changed without buffering will sent back the economy by decades.

5.pink say yellow stole from us in the past, in present pink took from yellow , tomorrow yellow will say pink stole from us. 2 wrongs don't make a right. It only perpetuates the wrongs and the miseries.

6.politicians care for none but themselves , the net beneficiary will be them rather than the 2 parties , it pays to keep a dispute lingering rather than solve it , which otherwise will make them redundant.


This my own observation based on kind of similar situation in my country.


And where resource utilisation is concerned Rather than redistribution it should be co-investment/co-participation for mutual benefit and improvement.

There should be guidelines and a robust and fast redressal mechanism to sort out issues at the individual level. At no point must politicians be involved other than the framing of guidelines with common consensus.

But the problem is we r humans , and we will err

Frumentum:


I disagree with Patches' post, but let's stick to facts. The 2 laws you've cited don't exist.
You might be confusing it with the regulation that states that you have to use your SA passport to fly out and in, otherwise your foreign passport will be treated as if you're on tourist visa even though you're a citizen. For example: before I could fly to Europe on my UK and Portuguese passport - to avoid visas applications and fees; go on to US on same, and then fly home on my SA passport.
It's changed nothing for me if going to Europe - SA passport to exit, present SA and Euro passport on arrival, and same process in reverse.
Unnecessary red tape enacted during a paranoid presidency. Anyway, there's a thread for all this, let's stop derailing this thread.

Centrifude:


Thank you for the correction about the Law of owning land.
I forgot that it was a *Proposed* land holding bill, which was sent in for approval, but judging by how Cyril is in so obsessed with land I have a feeling this Bill will be passed by the time patches comes back to S.A.


*The South African Citizenship Act provides for
retention of South African citizenship PRIOR to
the acquisition of a foreign citizenship. A
condition of attaining dual citizenship for all South
African citizens aged 18 years or older is that they
must apply and be granted permission to
retain their South African citizenship prior to the
acquisition of a foreign citizenship.
If a South African citizen does not obtain this prior
permission they will automatically lose their
South African citizenship on voluntary acquisition
of a foreign citizenship.*

https://www.sahc.org.au/citizenship/Dual_Citizenship.htm

Frumentum:


You're still confusing the issues. Again to use a personal example: I automatically got UK citizenship because of my father and Portuguese from my mother. So, the SA Citizenship Act doesn't apply as I didn't apply for other citizenship, after turning 18.
I claimed - not applied for - citizenship which was automatically conferred on me by UK and Portuguese law whether I took it up or not, at whatever time.
Simply, the sections you quoted impact Saffers over the age of 18 who've only ever held SA citizenship and now want to apply for other, whilst retaining SA. Mostly emigrating Afrikaners and Black (African, Asian and Coloured) Saffers who want to retain SA citizenship - the groups least likely to have automatic rights to other citizenship.

And even then, the SA govt cannot strip people of SA citizenship simply because they apply for other citizenship. And so we circle back to my argument that the regulations on what passport to exit and enter RSA were driven by paranoid securocrats who came very close to co-opting Home Affairs to their control agenda.

I shall refrain from the so-called land debate.

Xbee007:
It is saddening, unfair and wrong that the black population in SA today do not have equal access to land as their white counterpart. It is a dire situation that needs urgent remedy. However, snatching back the land from the white population and handing it back to blacks for free will be a terrible decision. Two wrongs don't make a right.

It won't just breed deep seethed hatred and enmity, but also have a cataclysmic effect on SA's economy. You don't want to go the way of Zimbabwe. I am not saying this because I think SA black population are incapable of managing and sustaining the farming business. Far from it, there are thousands of very successful farmers in my country and they aren't white. I am saying this because I am aware the farming business is daunting, risky and requires significant amount of capital if you are ever going to succeed. White farmers can easily raise the necessary capital because of the network of quality connections they have formed as well as the wealth of experience they have acquired in the farming business plus white privileges.

Nothing kills countries' progress faster than stifling meritocracy. It is a subtle precussor for disaster when you indirectly tell people that they don't need to struggle for wealth, land, jobs etc... All they need is just to have the right skin color, belong to the right ethnic or religious group, speak the right language.

As a Nigerian, with working experience in the public sector, I can confidently proclaim that when you give out lands, jobs and positions to people just because of the color of their skin, ethnic group, religion and whatnots you are shooting yourself in the foot. I have seen real unlettered people in Nigeria public sector holding positions that in saner progressive climes they would never dream of. What productive contribution can such people bring to the table? It shouldn't come as a surprise, if I tell you that some of those people are there to just fleece the institution of valuable resources. Daily, some of them connive with the storekeepers and fleece us of resources.

I believe, both whites and black population in SA can sit and map out decisions that can favour both parties. There is a popular saying in my language, "oun tí a kò sisé fún kii pę lówó rárá. Oun tí abá sisé fún ní pé lówó eni." Meaning, "what you don't struggle for will never last long. But what you toil hard for will definitely last longer." It isn't rocket science.

The black needs to genuinely understand that if they want to enjoy the goodies that the white population in SA currently enjoys, they need to work harder. Double your hussle!
There is one major impediment though, the religious credulousity among SA black population is mind boggling. And the cancer of "prosperity doctrine" is sweeping across Africa at a disturbing speed. Too many black people literally believe that they can pray their way out of abject penury. They will eat grass and top it with petrol!
They seriously need to understand their fate is in their hands. They are the architect of their own destiny.
Work hard and smart and the sky will be your starting point.

jln115:

I agree with most of your points.

But a few things a differ on:

- saying black SANs are incapable of sustaining and managing the farming business is a very naive thing to say, there are quite a few very successful black commercial farmers, but unfortunately the vast majority of would be farmers simply don't have the resources/skill to farm commercially, they have the potential to, but government refuses to actually invest in thees individuals.

Jkay187:


Your argument will hold water under your own country's prevailing socio-economic conditions and the fact that it was done at a time when most african countries only got out of colonial rule.

In SA unlike in Kenya there is a disproportionate unequal land ownership which is and was not the case in many other african countries. In SA whites still has disproportionate land ownership compared to there black counterparts and it is a ticking time bomb. A country like SA with its other social and economic issues there is a need for equality otherwise one day there will be a revolt and it will lead to instability in SA.

There is a law already in place but not all stakeholders are willing to make sacrifices, government and farmers need to reach consensus on the issue. If you only knew how whites react on the issue of land reform and the issue of economic exclusion of blacks in some sectors like land and financing of land you will have a different view if you're a non white in SA and that's a fact that whites continually refuse to accept.

Xbee007:

I never said black SAs are incapable. Read again.

jln115:

Sorry my bad...... Anyway in that case I agree with what you said!!

Centrifude:


I'm not sure if you're aware of that fact that once you've obtained the Citizenship of another country you automatically forfeit your South African Citizen, unless you ask for permission to retain your S.A Citizenship before acquiring the new Citizenship, but it's not always guaranteed that you'll be given that permission.

So my reason for raising the issue of citizenship is that, a few years ago a New Law was passed that Foreigners will only be allowed to own only 12 000 hectares of South African land, so since you would most likely have given up your S.A Citizenship, for an American one.. When you come back to S.A you will be considered as a Foreigner, who can only buy two farm houses.

Your plan sounds really great, but the new laws won't be in your favour, like the Law was for your Grand Pappy.

Jkay187:


Your argument will hold water under your own country's prevailing socio-economic conditions and the fact that it was done at a time when most african countries only got out of colonial rule.

In SA unlike in Kenya there is a disproportionate unequal land ownership which is and was not the case in many other african countries. In SA whites still has disproportionate land ownership compared to there black counterparts and it is a ticking time bomb. A country like SA with its other social and economic issues there is a need for equality otherwise one day there will be a revolt and it will lead to instability in SA.

There is a law already in place but not all stakeholders are willing to make sacrifices, government and farmers need to reach consensus on the issue. If you only knew how whites react on the issue of land reform and the issue of economic exclusion of blacks in some sectors like land and financing of land you will have a different view if you're a non white in SA and that's a fact that whites continually refuse to accept.

Jkay187:


Ok to kick start this one off, what other alternatives to land restitution is there besides expropriation without compensation since the latter has failed in SA for the past 2 decades. We all know about ANC incompetence in the land reform process but, this is a process that SA must go through to effectively solve its land issues.

jln115:

Well that's were you are wrong, since White farmers don't even own close to 80% of the so called land in SA.

Jkay187:
For 2 decades there's been a reluctance on whites to share the land in SA under a policy of compensation. The issue here is the implementation of the new proposed Land Restitution Bill, and what safeguards it will give to property owners and how to ensure food security in SA.

What is troubling here is that whites are being disingenuous when it comes to this issue because CR said there will be consultations between the gov and opposition parties on how the policy will be implemented. This very topic reminds me of the "swart gevaar" propaganda of the NP of yesterday now in full swing by Afriforum and its broederbond fools

jln115:

Incompetence is the reason land reform hasn't worked in the last 20 years.....nothing else!

If you want a war then Land retribution without compensation is a great place to start, you cant take something someone else has paid and invested there whole life in and give it to someone else simply because his white!! That is literally the definition of stealing.

jln115:

Reluctance??By law if there was a successful land claim the owner had to sell his property!! [b]Fact is 90% o[/b]f land claim applicants chose the money over the land.....what does that tell you??

: the Kenyan Highlands comprise one of the most successful agricultural production regions in Africa

Lionessza:




Afriforum and soliditary facts ? . AWB wet dreams?

Lionessza:




Lol, it has started already in the Free state. Like you carelessly said in one of your posts, although I won't quote your exact words . " *innocent people *will lose their land and their only crime is that they are white , even though they* paid *for that land to *someone else* , who stole that land at gun point from *some dead guy* " . That right there , is the reason many of us thought " black Monday" was a big joke and never bothered to join it . "Just a bunch a land thieves dying " , who cares really? . Let them die in the most brutal way possible, just like the " dead guy " whose land was stolen at gun point. Afriforum can't do anything about it except, offer 50 guns to a family of 4. KE NAKO !

Lionessza:



Lol, yeah we believe you.

jln115:
well no point debating with someone that says.... And I quote" Just a bunch a land thieves dying " , who cares really? . Let them die in the most brutal way possible"

So how is your"Zuma is going nowhere " rhetoric?

jln115:

Again you make valid points, yes there is disproportionate land ownership between white and black, yes it must be addressed as soon as possible, and yes there could one day be a revolt.... Just as there will be a revolt if you start taking white owned land without compensation.

Also whites react just like any other person would when you threaten to simply take their livelihood without compensation..... Imagine somebody threatened to take your house, because you are black..... Actually you don't even have to imagine it happened during apartheid!! So why do the same wrong now?

Go read the land reform policy of both the DA and Afriforum.... Why can't we implement a policy that would benifit all parties involved plus creating jobs and growing the economy at the same time?!

You said yourself that property rights of both black and white must be protected....... But please explain to me how that can be remotely possible when taking white owned land without compensation?

Xbee007:

I never said black SAs are incapable. Read again.

jln115:

I agree with most of your points.

But a few things a differ on:

- saying black SANs are incapable of sustaining and managing the farming business is a very naive thing to say, there are quite a few very successful black commercial farmers, but unfortunately the vast majority of would be farmers simply don't have the resources/skill to farm commercially, they have the potential to, but government refuses to actually invest in thees individuals.

Lionessza:



What exactly were you saying in that stupid post of yours? .

Xbee007:

Two wrongs will never make a right, fact.
The white and black population in SA should figure out mutually acceptable ways to properly redistribute the lands. But that should never entail giving out lands for free to blacks just because they are blacks. As a Nigerian, I am fully aware of the inherent danger in giving people preferential treatments just because of the color of the skin, religion, tribe, etc.

Lionessza:



Lol, ofcourse you agree with most of his points. The dude is a Nigerian, they were born to massage your little egos. Btw , there is quite a number of successful black commercial farmers . The lies spread by Afriforum and that losers party in green and orange, are just that .....lies. " most of the land given back usually becomes unproductive " lol WTF?. Using a few examples of failure to get away with crime ?.

Lionessza:




LMFAO@ implementing the policies of the DA and Afriforum . Whatever you are smoking must be good, is it from Lesotho or Matatiele? . Bloodshed cannot be avoided , Zimbos told us lol. And don't start with the " food security kaak " I'm sick of Afriforum propaganda.

Lionessza:




Lol, leave my typos alone and focus on the message. It's simply really , criminals cannot turn around and play victim. They killed to get those farm lands and now want compensation? WTF for?. The only thing they should get , is what they are getting currently but I think it should get a little bit a extreme to make the ANC act fast.


Zuma showed you guys his manhood , unlike ballesss Deklerk and the " terrorist ". The incident outside of the Luthuli house a few weeks ago looked bad for the nation and zuma as the Patriot he is had to resign to avoid seeing the Steve Hofmeyers of this world ejaculating on their hands over such incidents lol. Let's see how Cyril Oppenheimer will deal with the land issue , Is he going to take the land under king Zwelithini and piss him off enough to unleash Zulu herdsmen on all of us lol. Or is he going to take the farms from the Ruperts and piss afriforum off enough to unleash the psychotic AWB members in orania on us? . Either way, bodies will drop in huge numbers. Thanks to the terrorist who put his signature on some kaak codesa deal.