Jazaklaahu khyran op.

Your responses are clear.

Fundamentalist:
" He finished prayer in which he was reciting loudly and said : were any of you reciting with me just now ? A man said yes , I was , o messenger of Allah . He said , I say why am I contended with ? ( the narrator of the hadeeth Abu hurrairah said ): so the people stopped reciting with the messenger of Allah (saw) when he was reciting aloud after hearing that from " - muwatta maalik , Abu dawwod , Ahmad and tirmidh . tirmidh declared it hasan.

Before you start posting fatwas here you should know your onions, how can you call non recitation behind the imam in loud prayers ignorance because your fatwa sheikh said so . How do you intend to explain the above verse of the Qur'an, the hadeeth I quoted are they also ignorance to ?

.
I agree i don't know my onions and you do know your onions right so what is the aim of you asking all your questions? to seek knowledge or to find fault? More like the latter!

This hadith i quoted for you was narrated by Bukhari!

It was narrated in a saheeh report that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) used to recite it (al-Fatiha) in every rak’ah. Al-Haafiz ibn Hajar said in Fath al-Baari: “It was proven that permission was given to the one who is praying behind an imaam to recite al-Faatihah in prayers in which Qur’aan is to be recited out loud, without any exceptions. That is what was narrated by al-Bukhaari in Juz’ al-Qiraa’ah, and by al-Tirmidhi, Ibn Hibbaan and others, from Makhool from Mahmood ibn al-Rabee’ from ‘Ubaadah, that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) stumbled in his recitation in Fajr, and when he finished he said, “Perhaps you recite behind your imaam?” They said, “Yes,” He said, “Do not do that, except for the Opening of the Book (al-Faaithah), for there is no prayer for the one who does not recite it.”

And let the one who knows his onions and who is a fundamentalist interprete the above hadith!

Rashduct4luv:

.
I agree i don't know my onions and you do know your onions right so what is the aim of you asking all your questions? to seek knowledge or to find fault? More like the latter!

This hadith i quoted for you was narrated by Bukhari!

It was narrated in a saheeh report that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) used to recite it (al-Fatiha) in every rak’ah. Al-Haafiz ibn Hajar said in Fath al-Baari: “It was proven that permission was given to the one who is praying behind an imaam to recite al-Faatihah in prayers in which Qur’aan is to be recited out loud, without any exceptions. That is what was narrated by al-Bukhaari in Juz’ al-Qiraa’ah, and by al-Tirmidhi, Ibn Hibbaan and others, from Makhool from Mahmood ibn al-Rabee’ from ‘Ubaadah, that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) stumbled in his recitation in Fajr, and when he finished he said, “Perhaps you recite behind your imaam?” They said, “Yes,” He said, “Do not do that, except for the Opening of the Book (al-Faaithah), for there is no prayer for the one who does not recite it.”

And let the one who knows his onions and who is a fundamentalist interprete the above hadith!

I have quoted hadeeths and ayah from the Qur'an, you have to give me an explanation on that

Are you telling me than a hadeth from sahib bukhari is superior to the ayah from the Qur'an and also hadeeth even sayings of the companions support my claim

Fundamentalist:


I have quoted hadeeths and ayah from the Qur'an, you have to give me an explanation on that

Are you telling me than a hadeth from sahib bukhari is superior to the ayah from the Qur'an and also hadeeth even sayings of the companions support my claim

.
Let me share this:

The Standing Committee was asked a similar question and they replied as follows:

The correct scholarly opinion is that it is obligatory to recite al-Faatihah when praying alone and it is obligatory upon the imam and those whom he is leading both in prayers where Qur’aan is to be recited out loud and when it is to be recited silently, because of the soundness and specific nature of the texts which indicate that. The aayah (interpretation of the meaning):

“So, when the Qur’aan is recited, listen to it, and be silent that you may receive mercy”

[al-A’raaf 7:204] is general in meaning. The hadeeth, “When the Qur’aan is recited then listen attentively” is general and applies both to al-Faatihah and other soorahs. These two texts are general in meaning, and the following hadeeth refer to an exception to that rule:

“There is no prayer for the one who does not recite the Opening of the Book.” Thus we may reconcile all the proven evidence. The hadeeth “The recitation of the imaam is the recitation of the one who is praying behind him” is da’eef (weak). It is not correct to say that the Ameen of the congregation to the imaam’s recitation of al-Faatihah takes the place of their own recitation. The differences of opinion among the scholars concerning this matter should not be taken as a means to hate one another, and to divide and turn our backs on one another. Rather you have to study the matter in more detail and find out more. If one of you is following a scholar who says that the one who is praying behind an imam has to recite al-Faatihah during prayers in which Qur’aan is to be recited out loud, and others are following a scholar who says that they must be silent and listen to the imam in prayers where Qur’aan is to be recited out loud, and that the imam’s recitation of al-Faatihah is sufficient, there is nothing wrong with that. There is no need for one group to denounce the other, or to hate one another because of that.

They have to be open-minded about differences of opinion among the scholars, and about the reasons for that, and ask Allaah to guide them in matters concerning which there are differences of opinion as to what is correct, for He is the All-Hearing, Ever-Responsive. May Allaah bless our Prophet Muhammad.

Rashduct4luv:

Wa antum fajazaak Allaahu khayran.

It is just the same ruling .i.e. the first two you prayed is your first two rakahs. Then you pray the last two rakahs with only fatiha just as we pray our last two rakah of Asri. This is in line with the hadith below:

It was narrated that ‘Ata’ said: Abu Hurayrah said: In every prayer there is recitation. What we heard the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) say, we tell you, and what he did not tell us about we cannot tell you. Whoever recites Umm al-Kitaab (i.e., Soorat al-Faatihah) has done enough, and whoever does more than that, that is better.

Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 738; Muslim, 396.

This means reading Fatiha is compulsory in prayer and no prayer without Fatiha but reading Surah after Fatiha is not compulsory!

And Allaah knows best

What if one meets last two rakahs in ishai. Will one recite only fathia and loudly?

Pls quote

yusufbida:


The last two rakahs you meet with the imam stands as your first two rakahs for you,

To make up the remaining two rakahs you are to recite fatiha only

Allahu Allam

What if one meets the last two rakahs in ishai. Will one recite only fathia and loudly?

Pls quote me

Rashduct4luv:

.
Let me share this:

The Standing Committee was asked a similar question and they replied as follows:

The correct scholarly opinion is that it is obligatory to recite al-Faatihah when praying alone and it is obligatory upon the imam and those whom he is leading both in prayers where Qur’aan is to be recited out loud and when it is to be recited silently, because of the soundness and specific nature of the texts which indicate that. The aayah (interpretation of the meaning):

“So, when the Qur’aan is recited, listen to it, and be silent that you may receive mercy”

[al-A’raaf 7:204] is general in meaning. The hadeeth, “When the Qur’aan is recited then listen attentively” is general and applies both to al-Faatihah and other soorahs. These two texts are general in meaning, and the following hadeeth refer to an exception to that rule:

“There is no prayer for the one who does not recite the Opening of the Book.” Thus we may reconcile all the proven evidence. The hadeeth “The recitation of the imaam is the recitation of the one who is praying behind him” is da’eef (weak). It is not correct to say that the Ameen of the congregation to the imaam’s recitation of al-Faatihah takes the place of their own recitation. The differences of opinion among the scholars concerning this matter should not be taken as a means to hate one another, and to divide and turn our backs on one another. Rather you have to study the matter in more detail and find out more. If one of you is following a scholar who says that the one who is praying behind an imam has to recite al-Faatihah during prayers in which Qur’aan is to be recited out loud, and others are following a scholar who says that they must be silent and listen to the imam in prayers where Qur’aan is to be recited out loud, and that the imam’s recitation of al-Faatihah is sufficient, there is nothing wrong with that. There is no need for one group to denounce the other, or to hate one another because of that.

They have to be open-minded about differences of opinion among the scholars, and about the reasons for that, and ask Allaah to guide them in matters concerning which there are differences of opinion as to what is correct, for He is the All-Hearing, Ever-Responsive. May Allaah bless our Prophet Muhammad.

That's from the standing committee in Saudi Arabia and the opinion is very much popular among them, what about the opinions of the companions like Abdullah bin Mas'ud, Jabir bin Abdullah , what about scholars of hadeeth like ibn taymiyaah, ibn qayyum jauziya, imam malik, Abu hanifa , imam Ahmad, and majority of scholars of hadeeth who embraced the opinion that as long as the imam is reciting loudly the followers must keep quiet and when he recites silently the must recite fatiha ( MAJMU'U FATAWA 23/309-330) . Thats the most balanced opinion which neither goes against the quran nor hadeeth.

You can't just crop up here and tell us a one sided opinion and think you have made a point . Look for the tafisr of the above quoted verse by Abdullah ibn Mas'ud

Unless you are telling me that a hadeeth can replace a verse of the Qur'an.(Na uzu billah )

Also , if a person meets the imam on ruku and he/she joins him is it acceptable that he met the raka'a or not ? don't forget he/she didn't recite suratul fatiha

He who has an imam , then the recitation of the imam is a recitation for him is daeef ? Ibn majah quoted this hadeeth with saheeh isnad even shaykh albani brought this hadeeth in irwa'aul galeel (506) .The hadeeths in that book are sahih .

This is what I meant by choosing words carefully

A lot of brothers I have challenged always shy away when I quote those hadeeths, ayah from al-araf and the sayings of companions along with the opinion of scholars in MAJMU'U FATAWA . I want to be convinced that a one sided opinion is correct. You earlier said so yourself , that there are three opinions you didn't explain two of them but you made yours very obvious , this cannot be regarded as fair in a circle of knowledge.

Your opinion is a popular opinion among Saudi scholars but the one in MAJMU'U FATAWA is what scholars ( past and present century ) of hadeeths hold till today.

My problem with you is one , if a similar issue like this comes up please quote everybody's opinion along with what they provided as proof that would make it just on your part .

^^ I am not really interested in the issue of ikhtilaf you both are talking about, but I just want to say that if a hadeeth is authentic, there is no difference between it and an ayah of the Qur'an. So its possible for a hadeeth to abrogate an ayah of the Qur'an, just as how an ayah of the Qur'an can abrograte the sunnah because its from one source....

AbdelKabir:
^^ I am not really interested in the issue of ikhtilaf you both are talking about, but I just want to say that if a hadeeth is authentic, there is no difference between it and an ayah of the Qur'an. So its possible for a hadeeth to abrogate an ayah of the Qur'an , just as how an ayah of the Qur'an can abrograte the sunnah because its from one source....

I'm I really reading this , a hadeeth abrogate an ayah ?

I say no more

Fundamentalist:


I'm I really reading this , a hadeeth abrogate an ayah ?

I say no more

Brother I advice that you be calm and ask for proof instead of responding as if I don't know what I'm saying...

AbdelKabir:


Brother I advice that you be calm and ask for proof instead of responding as if I don't know what I'm saying...

I didn't abuse anybody

What is your proof

Fundamentalist:


I didn't abuse anybody

What is your proof

There was sarcasm in your reply, anyway I'm not harmed by that...

The one I remember vividly which shaykh Muhammad Al-Ameen Ash-shinqeetiy brought in his adwaaul bayan is the hadeeth in saheeh Muslim of ummil mu'mineen A'ishah radiyallaahu anha where she mentioned that one of the ayah of the Qur'an that was abrogated is 10 breastfeedings to make a non-mahram a mahram with 5 breastfeedings, now was this ayah of the Qur'an abrogated by an ayah of the Qur'an or the sunnah?

Plus by mere thinking of it, you will see its true, the sunnah and the Qur'an came from one source which is Allaah to his messenger, the messenger said "I was given the Qur'an and something similar to it, if the messenger of Allaah makes something haraam its as if Allaah made it haraam", Allaah said the prophet don't say out of his own whims except that a revelation is sent to him..... So if you believe the sunnah and the Qur'an are both revelations and from one source, why can't they abrogate each other?

AbdelKabir:


There was sarcasm in your reply, anyway I'm not harmed by that...

The one I remember vividly which shaykh Muhammad Al-Ameen Ash-shinqeetiy brought in his adwaaul bayan is the hadeeth in saheeh Muslim of ummil mu'mineen A'ishah radiyallaahu anha where she mentioned that one of the ayah of the Qur'an that was abrogated is 10 breastfeedings to make a non-mahram a mahram with 5 breastfeedings, now was this ayah of the Qur'an abrogated by an ayah of the Qur'an or the sunnah?

Plus by mere thinking of it, you will see its true, the sunnah and the Qur'an came from one source which is Allaah to his messenger, the messenger said "I was given the Qur'an and something similar to it, if the messenger of Allaah makes something haraam its as if Allaah made it haraam", Allaah said the prophet don't say out of his own whims except that a revelation is sent to him..... So if you believe the sunnah and the Qur'an are both revelations and from one source, why can't they abrogate each other?

What about this verse

Al-Baqarah 2:106

مَا نَنسَخْ مِنْ ءَايَةٍ أَوْ نُنسِهَا نَأْتِ بِخَيْرٍ مِّنْهَآ أَوْ مِثْلِهَآۗ أَلَمْ تَعْلَمْ أَنَّ ٱللَّهَ عَلَىٰ كُلِّ شَىْءٍ قَدِيرٌ

We do not abrogate a verse or cause it to be forgotten except that We bring forth [one] better than it or similar to it. Do you not know that Allah is over all things competent?

Fundamentalist:


What about this verse

Al-Baqarah 2:106

مَا نَنسَخْ مِنْ ءَايَةٍ أَوْ نُنسِهَا نَأْتِ بِخَيْرٍ مِّنْهَآ أَوْ مِثْلِهَآۗ أَلَمْ تَعْلَمْ أَنَّ ٱللَّهَ عَلَىٰ كُلِّ شَىْءٍ قَدِيرٌ

We do not abrogate a verse or cause it to be forgotten except that We bring forth [one] better than it or similar to it. Do you not know that Allah is over all things competent?

This ayah does not point if the replacement will be in the Qur'an or sunnah......

Are you going to reject a hadeeth from sahih Muslim?


There is another proof, the eating of domestic donkeys was allowed and later abrogated by a hadeeth 2years after the revelation of that ayah...



just refreshed what I read from adwaaul bayaan

I should stop here this argument , I gained nothing

As I've said earlier I am not interested in the issue of ikhtilaaf you are discussing, what caught my attention is your saying that an authentic hadeeth can't abrogate an ayah of the Qur'an.... Its an erroneous understanding, may Allaah guide us aright

AbdelKabir:
As I've said earlier I am not interested in the issue of ikhtilaaf you are discussing, what caught my attention is your saying that an authentic hadeeth can't abrogate an ayah of the Qur'an.... Its an erroneous understanding, may Allaah guide us aright

Its an errornous understanding for you not to give a proper understanding for the above quoted verse , as Allah stated clearly only a similar verse will abrogate a previous one

Subhanallaah, what is not clear here? Where did the ayah say the replacement must be an ayah of the Qur'an especially when you've seen 2 authentic hadeeths that abrograted ayahs of the Qur'an? Pls let's fear Allaah with regards the truth....


Moreover how do you explain the proofs I brought with regards what I've said

And pls look at what you quoted very well Allaah says something better or similar to it can abrogate not just something similar...

Yea, you fear Allah and explain this verse too

An-Nahl 16:101

وَإِذَا بَدَّلْنَآ ءَايَةً مَّكَانَ ءَايَةٍۙ وَٱللَّهُ أَعْلَمُ بِمَا يُنَزِّلُ قَالُوٓا إِنَّمَآ أَنتَ مُفْتَرٍۭۚ بَلْ أَكْثَرُهُمْ لَا يَعْلَمُونَ

And when We substitute a verse in place of a verse - and Allah is most knowing of what He sends down - they say, "You, [O Muhammad], are but an inventor [of lies]." But most of them do not know.

And where did Allaah say that substitution must be in the Quran?Its clear you want to confuse yourself because you believe whatever you know must continue being right......Are you trying to understand the Qur'an independently without the sunnah?

Has arrogance taken you that you can't take the truth?

Fear Allaah, fear Allaah, fear Allaah......

Ma'a salaamah..

AbdelKabir:
And where did Allaah say that substitution must be in the Quran?Its clear you want to confuse yourself because you believe whatever you know must continue being right......Are you trying to understand the Qur'an independently without the sunnah?

Has arrogance taken you that you can't take the truth?

Fear Allaah, fear Allaah, fear Allaah......

Ma'a salaamah..

You fear Allah and give me an explanation of the above ayah according to the understanding of the salafs , then I would start taking you serious , you can't just quote hadeeth and run away and think you have made a point

The main crunch of the is matter is did the companions understood the hadeeth from your type of interpretation or are you just trying to play with people's intelligence ?

Even scholars of high eminence both past and present generation don't come to such conclusions as you did .

Allah says , we substitute a verse in place of a verse and you tell me we substitute a hadeeth in place of a verse, Who should I believe and who should fear Allah ?

You better fear Allah , fear Allah, fear Allah

Alhamdulillah, it is now clear. May Allah show us the truth and give us the will to follow it...

DOWHILE:


What if one meets last two rakahs in ishai. Will one recite only fathia and loudly?

Pls quote

.
No silently just as you pray the last two rakahs of Ishaa! The two you prayed represents the first two you ought to pray.

If it were just me and you I won't bother responding because you clearly don't even know what you talking about but want to stay relevant, anyway I'll reply and will suffice with this insha Allaah because I'm not here to change your view but to make things clear....

Fundamentalist:


You fear Allah and give me an explanation of the above ayah according to the understanding of the salafs , then I would start taking you serious , you can't just quote hadeeth and run away and think you have made a point

The real question is, where is your explanation from the salafs pointing to your own understanding that the replacement must be in the Qur'an? My own case I brought an explanation from a book of tafsir adwaaul bayaan fi tafsiril Quran bil Quran of Shaykh Muhammad Al-Ameen Ash-shinqeetiy rahimahullaah, who have you quoted to support yours? OK if you don't want to take his, let's go to ibn kathir's book of tafsir, the 4th volume of the nuskhah(copy) I have with me page 603 a tabi'i Qataadah ibn di'amah says about the verse you brought from suratul nahl that it is like the saying of Allaah in suratul baqarah which was the first ayah you brought, so ibn kathir didn't expatiate on it because they've been a similar tafsir on it, so let's look at the tafsir of the first ayah you brought.....when we check the volume 1 of the same book page 375 Mujahid ibn jabar a tabi'i said about this statement "Whatever we abrograte" that it means "we(Allaah) affirm(leave) its writing and change its ruling" he related this interpretation from the companions of Abdullaahi ibn Mas'ud, which I already gave you an example which the meat of domestic donkeys were once halal and that writing is still in the Qur'an but there is a hadeeth that prohibited it two years later..... Now I ask again, who is your salaf in your understanding that THE REPLACEMENT MUST BE IN THE QUR'AN ?

The main crunch of the is matter is did the companions understood the hadeeth from your type of interpretation or are you just trying to play with people's intelligence ?

My understanding or the understanding of scholars of which I brought one of them in person of shaykh Muhammad Al-ameen Ash-shinqeetiy? Or he is not scholar enough to you? Moreover what understanding of the sahabah are you talking about? Did they continue eating the meat of domestic donkeys after the prohibition reached them? Or did they insist that the breastfeeding for making one mahram must continue being 10 and not 5? Your question is funny and a sign of "let me just look for what to say to stay relevant"...

Even scholars of high eminence both past and present generation don't come to such conclusions as you did .

Shaykh Muhammad Al-ameen Ash-shinqeetiy rahimahullaah isn't scholar enough to you, or other scholars that believe the sunnah can abrogate an ayah of the Qur'an like ibn uthaymeen and shaykh Al-albaani.....

From silsilatul hudaa wan noor

Shaykh Albaani was asked if the sunnah can abrogate an ayah of the Qur'an, the shaykh says: I am with the general statement of the prophet sallallaahu alayhi wa sallam where he said " I was given the Quran and something similar to it" this is first secondly, the meaning of "naskh" in the terms of the salafs is more encompassing compared to the terms of the khalafs, it means generally(to the salafs)abrogation completely from it's source and abrogation of a part of the text or its ruling or an indication. This second definition is what the khalafs defined naskh to be(I'll skip what comes after this not to make it too long and will go to....) There is no issue with terms, so if it is permissible to abrogate a part of an ayah with the sunnah then what stops all the ruling to be abrogated by the sunnah? There is no difference generally, this is secondly, thirdly we can give an example of that where Allaah says "it is presceibed for you that when death visits one of you, if he left a will, that it should be for his parents and next of kins.." Will for parents is abrogated by this hadeeth "There is no will for the heirs" [my own note, because Allaah already defined what they will collect, so one should not make a will before dying], this hadeeth is an abrogation of part of the ayah of will(presented initially) for parents (I'll skip what follows for same reason as before and go to....) The questioner now says : (so) Abrogation of Qur'an with sunnah is possible, the shaykh replies: and this is what was written by imam ash-shafi'i(a tabi tabi'iy, a salaf) in his great well known book "ar-risaalah" [read full discussion for those who can read Arabic HERE]

Shaykh ibn uthaymeen was asked: in the book "Al-usool", there is an example (of an issue you brought) which we found no example for it which is abrogation of the Quran with the sunnah

The shaykh replies: this we find in the lutiy(ayah on the people of lut that practiced homosexualism) Allaah says: and those who goes close to it from you(that is to the evil of homosexualism and indication " al-ladhaani is for males) then hurt them and if they repent and become better, then leave them, verily Allaah is the most oft in accepting repentance, the most merciful " then it comes from the sunnah abrogating this where the prophet says "whoever finds the one doing the act of the people of lut then kill the doer of the act and the one the act is being done on" (from the tape "sharh qawaaidil usool" tape 8 part B)

Hope these two are scholars enough for you if ash-shinqeetiy is not...

Allah says , we substitute a verse in place of a verse and you tell me we substitute a hadeeth in place of a verse, Who should I believe and who should fear Allah ?

Is it new to you that if a Qur'an verse speaks generally, the sunnah can specify it? Qur'an verse says pray, the sunnah specifies it that it should be like this, the Qur'an says fasts, the sunnah specifies how it should be done, these are basics anyone claiming salafiyyah should know and believe! Your statement is no different from the statement of the Qur'aniyyeen that understand the Qur'an independently..... The Qur'an says verse by a verse and didn't specify if it is in the Quran or the other source of revelation which is the sunnah, and the sunnah gives example of what was removed from quran and replaced in the sunnah, so what's so difficult in this? The Qur'an says this and the sunnah tells you it actually means this and not the apparent meaning, isn't it clear?

You better fear Allah , fear Allah, fear Allah

May Allaah not make me from those who don't fear him...

^^^MaashaAllah brother, you really clear this matter. May Allah increase us in knowledge and understanding. Aamin

iamgenius:
^^^MaashaAllah brother, you really clear this matter. May Allah increase us in knowledge and understanding. Aamin

Aameen..

Ya ikhwaan, maybe I should add what shaykh ibn uthaymeen said in tape 36 part B in his popular liqaail baabil maftooh where the shaykh says: If the sunnah is known to be authentic from the prophet sallallaahu alayhi wa sallam then its degree is the same with the degree of (an ayah of) the Qur'an, it is compulsory to work with what is in it and acknowledge that its information is true...

DOWHILE:


What if one meets the last two rakahs in ishai. Will one recite only fathia and loudly?

Pls quote me

Yes you are to recite fathia only but silently this is the consensus of the schoolar