Jkay187:


The answer is simple SA farmers survived because it relied on cheap slave labor. Farm workers had no labor rights worked long hours without decent working conditions or living standards. Till today some of those conditions still exists just go look at the Western Cape, Northern Cape "dop system" that has had devastating effects on farming communities and has led to crippling social health problems.

Your view on Zim is mostly sanctioned on a Western media ideology and lacks substance. The issues in Zim is much more complex and it also borders on foreign interference and economic sabotage. We can even conclude that the West especially the UK took Zims stance on land reform so personal that it even covertly sponsored an illegal coup at some point involving British nationals.

My point is that we should judge Zim and SA differently, because it has profoundly different sets of conditions economically and politically. Scare mongering just to drive a certain political narrative won't give us here debating the issue of land reform in SA any consensus.

Jkay187:


The answer is simple SA farmers survived because it relied on cheap slave labor. Farm workers had no labor rights worked long hours without decent working conditions or living standards. Till today some of those conditions still exists just go look at the Western Cape, Northern Cape "dop system" that has had devastating effects on farming communities and has led to crippling social health problems.

Your view on Zim is mostly sanctioned on a Western media ideology and lacks substance. The issues in Zim is much more complex and it also borders on foreign interference and economic sabotage. We can even conclude that the West especially the UK took Zims stance on land reform so personal that it even covertly sponsored an illegal coup at some point involving British nationals.

My point is that we should judge Zim and SA differently, because it has profoundly different sets of conditions economically and politically. Scare mongering just to drive a certain political narrative won't give us here debating the issue of land reform in SA any consensus.

patches689:


Where to begin with this?

Its tough when people dont understand basic free-market economics...

The economic collapse in Zim was mainly due to the fact that capital freaked the fvck out when the land invasions happened (for good reason) and people stopped investing/withdrew capital and dumped Zim dollars, stocks and bonds into the market - in other-words, billions of USD evaporated over night. Zimbabwe has received (according to the world bank) HALF A BILLION DOLLARS IN AID, you cant say they are "under sanctions".

Second, yes, it is good that RSA has the economic policy it has with regards to farming. Not subsidising agri means that:

1. Taxes are not spent paying people to do their jobs (badly)
2. Open trade brings in food products cheaper, this means that people spend less on food, this means that people have more money to spend on other things - this leads to growth in other sectors. Equally because of #1, government can spend capital on other more meaningful things or they could cut taxes (as if) thus further improving the effect outlined in #2.

No, it is governments job to do neither. If you just leave private enterprise alone, it will grow and that will get people out of poverty. It really is that simple. India and China did just that - they got government out of the way - and as a result about a billion people have been lifted out of extreme poverty in just 30 years.

Finally, I fail to see how it is "white peoples responsibility" to have their assets stripped from them for no other reason than they are white. I also fail to see how stripping white people of their rights will lead to "nation building"

Jkay187:


Ok Patchy I see know I'm dealing with a free market economic advocate.

Capital flights out of Zim was 1st because of sanctions then came the disastrous Mugabe policies and self enrichment policies for its elites.

On the issue of not subsidizing farming just answer me 1 thing. Does the EU who advocate free market systems not subsidize its farming Yes/No and then insist that countries like SA and the rest of the world except there cheaper products and then in return the EU put in tariff barriers to smaller nations like SA to access there markets by setting restrictive rules to enter there markets.

Open trade don't always lead to cheaper goods there are other consequences that arise also, just look at how companies like Mital Steel in SA went down under cheap Chinese gov supported steel imports. Just to give another example, just take a look at Trumps current policies today and tell me where they stand on this issue of free trade and market reforms.

You know you are talking bull when it comes to China and you know this because China has a dual system and has a far larger market compared to Zim or SA so you cannot even compare the two. In China the government first focused on building its industries before opening it up to foreign investment. China today still focus on state run companies in its economy. It still a communist state with limited free market principals and that's a fact.

China is big enough to dictate to the West its terms and conditions to market entry, the opposite is true when it comes to africa and its fragmented small states. China uses its large state owned banks to invest in its indigenous industries can the same be said about SA. Another fact that u seem to ignore also is that China also controls the Media in that country and the west looks the other way, can we say the same here in africa if we did that then there will be all sorts of sanctions and aid withdrawals. If you want to compare countries do it case by case.

Finally I think you are just being disingenuous on the land policy because we don't even have the final draft passed not to talk about its constitutionality that will still need to be assessed by the constitution if its to be accepted.

Most of the politicians right know including those racist broederbond diccckheads from FF+ and Solidarity are just playing politics with there constituents and ganging up the swart gevaar issues. The ANC knows that if there is a Zim style land redistribution there will be issues in SA simply because there is a large substantial white population in SA and it can lead to instability.

That said there will and must be meaningful land distribution in SA for its long term stability and everyone should support it, but it should be done in a manner that every South African agrees to it and that it should not affect investments nor the guarantee of property rights for both white and blacks.

patches689:


"Land seizure in Zimbabwe is different"
"Land seizure in Angola is different"
"Land seizure in Zambia is different"
"Land seizure in DRC is different"
"Land seizure in Uganda is different"
"Land seizure in Tanzania is different"
"Land seizure in Ukraine is different"
"Land seizure in Russia is different"
"Land seizure in China is different"
"Land seizure in Venezuela is different"
(i could keep going, but I think you get the point)

If similar policy keeps having similar results, you cannot argue that there is "a difference"

And if you think, for even a second, that global capital wont treat South Africa like Zimbabwe, you are deeply mistaken. No one is going to invest a single penny in a country where they may end up having that penny seized from them, equally they arent going to keep a single penny their either.

patches689:


1. Every group is biased, thats their job - to agitate/negotiate for their constitutions. What you dont seem to know is that Agriforum and AgriSA both represent many thousands of black commercial farmers - they too will get badly hit by this new policy. When you wipe $15 billion off the bank's books, you can bet your bottom dollar that aint nobody gunna be putting capital into Agri.

2. Those same problems have never worked, ever, they have been implimented many many times across the world. The end result is always the same.

3. We will not recover. Cast your eye across Africa - no nation has yet truly recovered from the chaos such policies have caused.

4. How will replacing 40 or 50 thousand white famers with 40 or 50 thousand black farmers change anything? Unemployment stands at roughly 15 million people.

Resentment against the European farming enclave in the 'White Highlands' was one possible basis, but the British Government, under heavy pressure from Europeans, pre-empted this issue through the land resettlement programme.

patches689:


Thats bollocks though, I saw the interveiw with the Author of the book.

She argues that it was a "success" because she refused to determin success/failure according to "capitalist standards".

Ie: Old communist is happy that ideological goals are met, failing to understand the true role of modern mechanised agriculture - which is that of cash crops designed to be traded on foreign markets and thus drawing capital into your own economy - capital which is then used to develop secondary industries which have a direct correlation with increased standards of living, because, you know, we dont want people struggling in the feilds, we would prefer to move them into cities/factories/offices.

kikuyu1:


I get it but here in Kenya the resettlement scheme largely worked. A million+ acres of the former white highlands went to 25 k landless black families.
https://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Resettlement_Schemes_in_Post-Colonial_Kenya

The process wasn't perfect-there was inefficiency but by and large the handover was successful. The descendants of these Africans are Kenya's middle class,many still small scale farming these same holdings.

jln115:

Bro just no

Dude I know what cloud seeding is!! We've been doing it in SA for years.....unfortunately cloud seeding is less effective in an already arid country since for cloud seeding to work you already need rain clouds in the air....cloud seeding for the most part only increases the rain fall in an already forming storm... And only by a few percent!! Hence it couldn't /can't work in CT.

Also the cloud seeding operation in Vietnam had a minimal effect.... I'll even go as far to say it had 0 effect and was a complete waste of money!! between 1968-72 when operation popeye took place the average rain fall barely increased, if increased at all!!

Dude did you just seriously say "Fyi,that's wiki! Ain't no easily dismissed 'conspiracy website,' but the nets largest resource-srsly"
Fyi,that's wiki! Ain't no easily dismissed 'conspiracy website,' but the nets largest resource-srsly" do you know what Wikipedia is?? Do you know that any person can just go edit a Wikipedia site as he wishes? Hence Wikipedia can never under any circumstances be used as an academic source??

Lastly Zimbabwe and SA suffered similar weather patterns in the last few years.... Yet you've never heard our government making ridiculous claims about weather manipulation. It's a fact that Southern Africa is getting dryer due to climate change.... So the droughts you're talking about is not surprising at all!! Neither is it a coincidence.

Fifty cloud seeding experiments were conducted with the result that 82% of the clouds produced rain within a brief period after having been seeded. It was claimed that one of the clouds drifted across the Vietnam border and dropped nine inches of rain on a US special forces camp over a four-hour period.

kikuyu1:


You're deliberately misunderstanding me. The post was about the possibility of weather warfare being used against Zim-not cloud seeding. Did you see this?
That was 50 yrs ago.What tech can they use today to either cause or inhibit precipitation?

jln115:
Well parliament has decided to amend Sec 25 of the constitution, only time will tell what will happen. I truly hope that the land reform process will be fair and just and will not lead to property right and economic ruin.....however i have my doubts!!

Jkay187:


Now you just being foolish or plain condescending. Why you trying to prove your point by referencing those countries that has never even went through apartheid policies that was part of SA longer then any other former western colony, by the way since when was there a Western colonization of "Russia". So no I don't want to get your point. Show me one country in the last 80 years that has had Apartheid racial segregation and group areas spatial policies imposed by a minority racial group in S.S.Africa.

Where do you get the idea that money or land will just be seized without any due diligence. This reminds when some whites keep on telling people that blacks are all corrupt and cannot run a company or country yet there are more examples of them being corrupt the world over.

No one is seizing anything yet.

Lionessza:




Don't even look far . Here is South Africa, the Steinhoff saga is the biggest corruption scandal to hit the country since 94. The banks , the evergreen contracts at the SOE 's ? . But that's not corruption, it's " collision". Lol, corruption is when your name is zuma or Gupta.

Interestingly, in the culture of identity politics in South Africa, the Steinhoff board are all white, all male and all CAs. How this collective of no doubt fine financial minds failed to pick up these “irregularities” only they will know, but which will hopefully come to light in the ensuing weeks as investigators try to get to grips with this hornet’s nest (or pit of vipers)

Lionessza:




Don't even look far . Here is South Africa, the Steinhoff saga is the biggest corruption scandal to hit the country since 94. The banks , the evergreen contracts at the SOE 's ? . But that's not corruption, it's " collision". Lol, corruption is when your name is zuma or Gupta.

Jkay187:


No my dear, when whites are corrupt and wipe out 10bn in just 1hour on the JSE through its corrupt accounting scams its called "mismanagement or accounting irregularities" simple accounting errors. The wording always changes when whites transgress, to make it more morally acceptable. Like you said Steinhof is a good example of such.

Lionessza:




Don't even look far . Here is South Africa, the Steinhoff saga is the biggest corruption scandal to hit the country since 94. The banks , the evergreen contracts at the SOE 's ? . But that's not corruption, it's " collision". Lol, corruption is when your name is zuma or Gupta.

jln115:

Stop this white and black sh1t!! corruption is corruption, accounting irregularities is just a another term for corruption in the auditing world hence why it was used in Deloitte's last Audit of Steinhoff.......I would know since i studied Chartered Accounting myself!!

Markus Jooste is a corrupt fvcktard who must rot in jail........Nobody and i mean nobody is defending his actions. The faster you get over this race obsession the faster we can move foreword as a country

Jkay187:


Now why do you get so worked up on the issue, I'm just proving a point here that media in SA including those external sources love to paint things to suit a particular narrative and audience. These terms must be discussed whether you like it or not including the sugar coating of race motivated reporting in SA media. Now you yourself were the first one here to make it a black and white issue also, so I suggest you do some introspection yourself. I know its difficult for you as a person to accept this concept of land reform.

You know I'm not really against your reasoning on many matters discussed here its only our interpretation of some of the wording that is creating friction on the subject. I'm not race obsessed I'm a constitutionist that's all bru. By the way I'm not black either so your assertions on race don't really matter to me.

What I'm advocating is justice bru not to score cheap points with anyone here, so "moenie jou bloedruk laat hoog raak vir niks nie hoor"

jln115:

1. Yes i agree fully!! The land issue should be resolved, hence i've supported fair,efficient and effective land reform policies

kikuyu1:


You've got a nigga doing some research!
https://www.dailymaverick.co.za/opinionista/2017-12-12-steinhoff-saga-shows-that-corporate-sa-speaks-with-a-forked-tongue/#.WpWFxCVRW1s

My,my,my,my! Thanks,btw!

Jkay187:


No my dear, when whites are corrupt and wipe out 10bn in just 1hour on the JSE through its corrupt accounting scams its called "mismanagement or accounting irregularities" simple accounting errors. The wording always changes when whites transgress, to make it more morally acceptable. Like you said Steinhof is a good example of such.

jln115:

Corruption is Corruption!! as simple as that!

newafricaken254:
[s]n@ggas can't farm,thats a fact.thats why Africa is the most fertile continent in the world but most africans survive on food AID or food exports from the rest of the world[/s]

Lionessza:




Yes , I agree but let's be honest here for a minute. White owned media houses not just the South African ones, all over the world. They have a tendency of finding different, more acceptable words to describe white criminality , but once the criminal is none white , he is corrupt and must be jailed immediately lol.

Let me show you such cases of bias from media houses like ENCA, city press, Sunday times etc.

1. When the Steinhoff saga was exposed , it was only ANN7 and the NewAge that made sure it was talked about for weeks on end . On enca it was talked about for day and they didn't refer to it as a " national crisis and disaster ", " corruption scandal " , some forgivable words were thrown around . The following day , we were back to our obsession " state capture "lol. No one advocated for their bank accounts to be closed ? . The usual "corruption crusaders " like afriforum and the DA took a back sit on this one . Issuing media statements like " let this be thoroughly investigated ". Why not the same passionate statements they issue when Indian/ black corruption hits the news , "arrest those crimminals immediately " , " close their bank accounts". . That right there is what we call white hypocrisy. The white guys who scammed the nation should be given the benefit of a doubt , the accused non whites are guilty without any investigation or court cases.


2. The same media houses have been making a lot of noise about the so called " state capture " . Why not do a proper investigation on this ? . Looking at our soe's alone, they would find out that the most corrupt companies are the "evergreen contracts " , anyway they already know this but will never report on it lol. Let's all focus on the likes of tergetta who benefitted 1.6 billion. Why should we bother the good old boys who have 40 year old contracts , taking home 45 billion ? Them colluding to hike up coal prices should not be on the spotlight coz it ain't corruption, it's " collision " . Only " evil " channels like ANN7 will report such as corruption. No wonder multichoice wants to shut them up . How dare you make sense and call white people the most corrupt people not only in South Africa but the world over ? . We should all watch Enca that only reports one side of the story , never will they invite the accused to come and defend him/herself lol. Oh ! We know the game. Same shyt as that kangaroo court , the parliamentary enquiry on state capture, we all know the outcome even before it's conclusion. I'm just looking forward to the one being chaired by the judge , it seems more realistic and fair . Let's look at everyone not just two families. If the zumas, Guptas , are found wanting, let the courts do their jobs . But let's also hold the Ruperts, Oppenheimers , and the Joostes of this world accountable as well . Let their faces make front pages as well as poster boys of corruption.

Xbee007:

Nonsense!

Jkay187:


Ok Patchy I see know I'm dealing with a free market economic advocate.

Capital flights out of Zim was 1st because of sanctions then came the disastrous Mugabe policies and self enrichment policies for its elites.

On the issue of not subsidizing farming just answer me 1 thing. Does the EU who advocate free market systems not subsidize its farming Yes/No and then insist that countries like SA and the rest of the world except there cheaper products and then in return the EU put in tariff barriers to smaller nations like SA to access there markets by setting restrictive rules to enter there markets.

Open trade don't always lead to cheaper goods there are other consequences that arise also, just look at how companies like Mital Steel in SA went down under cheap Chinese gov supported steel imports. Just to give another example, just take a look at Trumps current policies today and tell me where they stand on this issue of free trade and market reforms.

You know you are talking bull when it comes to China and you know this because China has a dual system and has a far larger market compared to Zim or SA so you cannot even compare the two. In China the government first focused on building its industries before opening it up to foreign investment. China today still focus on state run companies in its economy. It still a communist state with limited free market principals and that's a fact.

China is big enough to dictate to the West its terms and conditions to market entry, the opposite is true when it comes to africa and its fragmented small states. China uses its large state owned banks to invest in its indigenous industries can the same be said about SA. Another fact that u seem to ignore also is that China also controls the Media in that country and the west looks the other way, can we say the same here in africa if we did that then there will be all sorts of sanctions and aid withdrawals. If you want to compare countries do it case by case.

Finally I think you are just being disingenuous on the land policy because we don't even have the final draft passed not to talk about its constitutionality that will still need to be assessed by the constitution if its to be accepted.

Most of the politicians right know including those racist broederbond diccckheads from FF+ and Solidarity are just playing politics with there constituents and ganging up the swart gevaar issues. The ANC knows that if there is a Zim style land redistribution there will be issues in SA simply because there is a large substantial white population in SA and it can lead to instability.

That said there will and must be meaningful land distribution in SA for its long term stability and everyone should support it, but it should be done in a manner that every South African agrees to it and that it should not affect investments nor the guarantee of property rights for both white and blacks.

Jkay187:


Now you just being foolish or plain condescending. Why you trying to prove your point by referencing those countries that has never even went through apartheid policies that was part of SA longer then any other former western colony, by the way since when was there a Western colonization of "Russia". So no I don't want to get your point. Show me one country in the last 80 years that has had Apartheid racial segregation and group areas spatial policies imposed by a minority racial group in S.S.Africa.

Where do you get the idea that money or land will just be seized without any due diligence. This reminds when some whites keep on telling people that blacks are all corrupt and cannot run a company or country yet there are more examples of them being corrupt the world over.

No one is seizing anything yet.

kikuyu1:


I get it but here in Kenya the resettlement scheme largely worked. A million+ acres of the former white highlands went to 25 k landless black families.
https://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Resettlement_Schemes_in_Post-Colonial_Kenya

The process wasn't perfect-there was inefficiency but by and large the handover was successful. The descendants of these Africans are Kenya's middle class,many still small scale farming these same holdings.

newafricaken254:
africans can't farm,thats a fact.thats why Africa is the most fertile continent in the world but most africans survive on food AID or food exports from the rest of the world

kikuyu1:

I swear you sound like an American Anglo saxon throwing around those statements.

Lionessza:




Yes , I agree but let's be honest here for a minute. White owned media houses not just the South African ones, all over the world. They have a tendency of finding different, more acceptable words to describe white criminality , but once the criminal is none white , he is corrupt and must be jailed immediately lol.

Let me show you such cases of bias from media houses like ENCA, city press, Sunday times etc.

1. When the Steinhoff saga was exposed , it was only ANN7 and the NewAge that made sure it was talked about for weeks on end . On enca it was talked about for day and they didn't refer to it as a " national crisis and disaster ", " corruption scandal " , some forgivable words were thrown around . The following day , we were back to our obsession " state capture "lol. No one advocated for their bank accounts to be closed ? . The usual "corruption crusaders " like afriforum and the DA took a back sit on this one . Issuing media statements like " let this be thoroughly investigated ". Why not the same passionate statements they issue when Indian/ black corruption hits the news , "arrest those crimminals immediately " , " close their bank accounts". . That right there is what we call white hypocrisy. The white guys who scammed the nation should be given the benefit of a doubt , the accused non whites are guilty without any investigation or court cases.


2. The same media houses have been making a lot of noise about the so called " state capture " . Why not do a proper investigation on this ? . Looking at our soe's alone, they would find out that the most corrupt companies are the "evergreen contracts " , anyway they already know this but will never report on it lol. Let's all focus on the likes of tergetta who benefitted 1.6 billion. Why should we bother the good old boys who have 40 year old contracts , taking home 45 billion ? Them colluding to hike up coal prices should not be on the spotlight coz it ain't corruption, it's " collision " . Only " evil " channels like ANN7 will report such as corruption. No wonder multichoice wants to shut them up . How dare you make sense and call white people the most corrupt people not only in South Africa but the world over ? . We should all watch Enca that only reports one side of the story , never will they invite the accused to come and defend him/herself lol. Oh ! We know the game. Same shyt as that kangaroo court , the parliamentary enquiry on state capture, we all know the outcome even before it's conclusion. I'm just looking forward to the one being chaired by the judge , it seems more realistic and fair . Let's look at everyone not just two families. If the zumas, Guptas , are found wanting, let the courts do their jobs . But let's also hold the Ruperts, Oppenheimers , and the Joostes of this world accountable as well . Let their faces make front pages as well as poster boys of corruption.

he nationality of the deceased is not yet known but a police investigation is underway, with a spokesman for the South African Reserve Bank telling The Telegraph they believe the man "is presumed to be a stowaway."

AP report the man is thought to have sneaked onto the plane via the landing gear where his arm was severed when it contracted, splattering blood onto the plane’s fuselage.

In addition, "millions of South African rand" were also discovered on board and is reportedly being guarded by two SARB couriers. By current exchange rates, one million SA rand is worth $63,615.

300 tonnes of gold valued at over R300 billion was stolen from the SARB, with the help of insiders as part of a bigger looting exercise valued at a massive R2.25 trillion

After selling sandwiches in London, she studied economics and went to work for our Reserve Bank. She was so awful, that she was instructed to clear her desk in 2004 and leave the building. She was fired. However after secretly following [her predecessor] Tito Mboweni around, she created a black-list of all his ill-deeds. Later, she reappeared as Governor of SARB under mysterious circumstances.