I've always wanted to be educated on the African traditional beliefs but it seemed difficult as most of the pagans on Nairaland don't give a rat's ass behind about atheists discussion and Babalawos is a disappointment to me as he became a joke with his sham videos till I met Vaxx who tries his hardest to educate peeps on Yoruba traditional belief

This thread would be questions from me to him on his belief, it would be for his educating me and not arguments and other people who have questions on Africa traditional beliefs can also ask him on this thread too if they want to

This is a thread that would last as long as both of us are active on Nairaland and I hope Vaxx keeps answering my questions no matter how dumb they may appear cuz as they say "The stupid question is the question you pretend you knew the answer to but you don't"

CuteMadridista:
I've always wanted to be educated on the African traditional beliefs but it seemed difficult as most of the pagans on Nairaland don't give a rat's ass behind about atheists discussion and Babalawos is a disappointment to me as he became a joke with his sham videos till I met Vaxx who tries his hardest to educate peeps on Yoruba traditional belief

This thread would be questions from me to him on his belief, it would be for his educating me and not arguments and other people who have questions on Africa traditional beliefs can also ask him on this thread too if they want to

This is a thread that would last as long as both of us are active on Nairaland and I hope Vaxx keeps answering my questions no matter how dumb they may appear cuz as they say "The stupid question is the question you pretend you knew the answer to but you don't"

whaoo, i am not promising you a hundred percent perfect answer but i will do my best to give it a trial while i skip the ones yet to be understand for now......

1st question

Who is "Eshu"? I took a tour of the Ooni of Ife's palace when we visited him for some contract to build some buildings in the palace. the tour included visiting the some shrines in the palace and our guide told us that Eshu is not Satan/Devil/Lucifer but its simply a misconception brought about by deceit from the missionaries who were trying hard to make their religion look similar to ours, how true is this? and who is Eshu in the Yoruba Traditional belief?

Vaxx

CuteMadridista:
1st question

Who is "Eshu"? I took a tour of the Ooni of Ife's palace when we visited him for some contract to build some buildings in the palace. the tour included visiting the some shrines in the palace and our guide told us that Eshu is not Satan/Devil/Lucifer but its simply a misconception brought about by deceit from the missionaries who were trying hard to make their religion look similar to ours, how true is this? and who is Eshu in the Yoruba Traditional belief?

Vaxx

there was a very impressive article writing on this subject, i even create a topic on it. anybody willing to know more should visit link.....https://www.nairaland.com/3743409/yoruba-eshu-same-christian-devil....

The idea of linking Yoruba tradition is not limited to Christianity only, even Muslim try hard to do so... have you heard of shittu, the being that was born through forbidden sex , female and female according to Muslim tales, he is the one who use his mystical power to identify where Muhammad was hiding under the rock.... some Muslim have claim this shittu to be Orunmila.( baba ifa)... they are only trying hard to paint the ideology black....

But i will put it in summary here, IFA Spirituality, Esu represents the crossroads and is considered the link between the spiritual and physical worlds. He is the deification of the process of decision making, i.e., crossroads. It is due to the great import of decision making (that can lead to reward or great failure), that Esu is feared by the ignorant, who later misinterpreted him as the "devil" in Eurocentric terms.

His colors are Black and Red. IFA: Spirituality explains that the Black represents the spiritual world (black like the universe) while Red represents the physical world (red like the physical blood and the deep earth soil). Esu is the link between these two worlds because it is our decisions at the crossroads which determine the interaction of spiritual power and physical existence.

Interesting reply

Next question, Christianity has Demons, Satan etc and Islam has Shaytan and some other entities they regard as "Evil" does your religion have evil entities too? if yes can you tell us about them? if no then how does your religion account for the existence of evil in the world?

CuteMadridista:
Interesting reply

Next question, Christianity has Demons, Satan etc and Islam has Shaytan and some other entities they regard as "Evil" does your religion have evil entities too? if yes can you tell us about them? if no then how does your religion account for the existence of evil in the world?

Olodumare has created a benevolent universe for everyone, it is our birthright to be happy, joyful and be successful. whatever that is evil today is the outcome of our character.....Man is the only evil entities to himself. no being is created evil...life is place on a balance system, you get what you request,

note...i am trying to put this in summary as possible, i do not want to overflow your thread with so much article, at least people should be able to read without getting tired.

vaxx:
whaoo, i am not promising you a hundred percent perfect answer but i will do my best to give it a trial while i skip the ones yet to be understand for now......

You are being set up. Do not say I did not warn you.

He is already inviting an antagonist to this thread to counter you. He does not wish to learn. He wishes to expose you and what you stand for as falsehood and confused.

His modus operandi precedes him. If he tells you to stand, you run. Such is how his mind works steadily.

Do not be misled by his subtlety. The end is always the same.

Vaxx, This is a discussion between you and I and I never called anyone to this thread except those ready to educate us as I said in OP, asides that I never called anyone here

I notice some people see whatever they want to see based on their preconceived conclusions which made them interpret this post https://www.nairaland.com/post/65750087 as me inviting someone to THIS thread which isn't true as the link I gave in that post was actually that which you gave in your second post on this thread

This troublemaker, attention seeker and scammer has always been against your educating me on ATR for (perhaps) personal reasons cuz I see no sense in his attempt at stirring up drama here over a post that has nothing to do with this thread

I'll advice you to ignore this guy as far as this thread is concerned if you can help it unless he asks questions if he has any and doesn't bring arguments, I hope you hearken to this advice as it'll help this thread stay sane and serve its purpose

CuteMadridista:
Vaxx, This is a discussion between you and I and I never called anyone to this thread except those ready to educate us as I said in OP, asides that I never called anyone here

I notice some people see whatever they want to see based on their preconceived conclusions which made them interpret this post https://www.nairaland.com/post/65750087 as me inviting someone to THIS thread which isn't true as the link I gave in that post was actually that which you gave in your second post on this thread

This troublemaker, attention seeker and scammer has always been against your educating me on ATR for (perhaps) personal reasons cuz I see no sense in his attempt at stirring up drama here over a post that has nothing to do with this thread

I'll advice you to ignore this guy as far as this thread is concerned if you can help it unless he asks questions if he has any and doesn't bring arguments, I hope you hearken to this advice as it'll help this thread stay sane and serve its purpose

bro,keep that aside and lets educate each other here.....i do not want us to derail this thread

CuteMadridista:


This troublemaker, attention seeker and scammer has always been against your educating me on ATR for (perhaps) personal reasons

What a brazen lie

butterflylion:


You are being set up. Do not say I did not warn you.

He is already inviting an antagonist to this thread to counter you. He does not wish to learn. He wishes to expose you and what you stand for as falsehood and confused.

His modus operandi precedes him. If he tells you to stand, you run. Such is how his mind works steadily.

Do not be misled by his subtlety. The end is always the same.

thanks bro, but cutemadridista is indeed cute, and i am giving him the benefit

vaxx:
Olodumare has created a benevolent universe for everyone, it is our birthright to be happy, joyful and be successful. whatever that is evil today is the outcome of our character.....Man is the only evil entities to himself. no being is created evil...life is place on a balance system, you get what you request,

note...i am trying to put this in summary as possible, i do not want to overflow your thread with so much article, at least people should be able to read without getting tired.

Interesting, how do you absolve Olodumare from the responsibility of evil if the evil came from man's character? is it that he created us with that possibility of doing evil?

also what is ATR's views on freewill and is Olodumare also omniscient like the Abrahamic gods?

cutemadridsta permit me to ask vaxx a question which would determine if I would keep following this topic.

Mr vaxx pls is there any hell that people who didn't follow the Yoruba religion would go to like the one in christianity ?

darkchild64:
cutemadridsta permit me to ask vaxx a question which would determine if I would keep following this topic.

Mr vaxx pls is there any hell that people who didn't follow the Yoruba religion would go to like the one in christianity ?

There is no hell in Yoruba spirituality. And freedom is vital in ATS, veneration of Orisha is done at will

vaxx:
Olodumare has created a benevolent universe for everyone, it is our birthright to be happy, joyful and be successful. whatever that is evil today is the outcome of our character.....Man is the only evil entities to himself. no being is created evil...life is place on a balance system, you get what you request,

note...i am trying to put this in summary as possible, i do not want to overflow your thread with so much article, at least people should be able to read without getting tired.

I disagree.

The universe is bounded with two forces; positive and negative. This include man and every entities therein. While we can be good, we can also be bad, it depends on the angle you are looking at it. However, neither the good or bad must overlap each other. It is therefore a necessity to keep an Harmony to avoid chaos.

The chaos mentioned above is evil. One must give sacrifice to Esu or he unleash Ajogun on his prey. We also give sacrifice to Eshu to appease the Eleye. Ajogun have nothing to provide anyone except calamity, loses and death.

We actually cannot completely eliminate evil. It gives meaning to what we know as good.

FOLYKAZE:


There is no hell in Yoruba spirituality. And freedom is vital in ATS, veneration of Orisha is done at will

well if that is the case then am interested in learning more about the religion,any religion that preaches eternal damnation is just too gross for me

CuteMadridista:


Interesting, how do you absolve Olodumare from the responsibility of evil if the evil came from man's character? is it that he created us with that possibility of doing evil?

also what is ATR's views on freewill and is Olodumare also omniscient like the Abrahamic gods?

This question is not directed to me, but please permit me to address it.

Olodumare does not mostly interfare in the affair of humankind. What do we need him for when we have our Ori (personal deity) and Orisha as extention. Eledumare can be classified as Deistic God. There is nothing like Ojúbo Eleduare, except some Orisha shrine. Therefore, Eledumare can be exonerated from evil act.

Freewill is the basic foundation of ATS. It is peculiar before physical existence. Before birth, we freely choose our destiny (Orin/ipin) in the abode of Ajala. Whatever we tend to do in physical life is a mirror of our existence in spiritual realm (iponri).

Those who chose Ori rere will be prosperous while those who chose Ori buburu will become impoverish. But from what I learnt, Ori búburú has to do with bad behaviour. This is why Yoruba say, ti mo ba de ajule Orun, nibi a n gbe yan ori, rere ni ma yan (if I return to the spiritual world, in the place where Destiny can be chosen, I will pick the good one). This implies that the harmony of good and evil are what makes existence continual.

Ok, so of course I had to jump on this thread as I'm very curious about the Yoruba Ifa religion.... Vaxx or anyone else who may be able to answer, are there any other kind of spirits in the Yoruba religion/mythology, not talking about Orisa here, but just any other sort of beings/creatures that the Yoruba believe in? For example the British/Irish believe in fairies and the Icelandic believe in elves....

CuteMadridista:


Interesting, how do you absolve Olodumare from the responsibility of evil if the evil came from man's character? is it that he created us with that possibility of doing evil?

also what is ATR's views on freewill and is Olodumare also omniscient like the Abrahamic gods?

Olodumare is not part of human decision, but not necessarily like deistic concept of GOD. he has created a fine environment for us to dwell and survive..... human his bless with her will, self awareness(consciousness) the ability that other creature lacks or has but not enough.... the word evil which denote wickedness, hatred etc is coined by human. for his or her own center notion. i will call it anthropocentric position, the reality is if there is no human,the word evil will not exist... other creature like multitude of plant and animal are living just fine...yes olodumare is omnipotent, he sometime nickname in his oriki as alewilese,( he who speak and do).

darkchild64:
cutemadridsta permit me to ask vaxx a question which would determine if I would keep following this topic.

Mr vaxx pls is there any hell that people who didn't follow the Yoruba religion would go to like the one in christianity ?

Hoping to transcend with judgmental God and non existing devil steal your future

FOLYKAZE:


I disagree.

The universe is bounded with two forces; positive and negative. This include man and every entities therein. While we can be good, we can also be bad, it depends on the angle you are looking at it. However, neither the good or bad must overlap each other. It is therefore a necessity to keep an Harmony to avoid chaos.

The chaos mentioned above is evil. One must give sacrifice to Esu or he unleash Ajogun on his prey. We also give sacrifice to Eshu to appease the Eleye. Ajogun have nothing to provide anyone except calamity, loses and death.

We actually cannot completely eliminate evil. It gives meaning to what we know as good.

hello, i understand where you are conming from, but i will do my best to explain some details to you..... the universe is bounded on a balance system..... what you call evil is good to another man, the war that besiege a community that cause calamity has cause prosperous to another community, the famine that besiege a village that cause starvation is a blessing in disguise for another community, in evil, there exist good, and in in good there exist evil..... so every element of universe is base on balance system .... sacrifice given to the orisha which include Esu, eleye, shango and others are symbolical... No orisha eat ebo..... The real sacrifice is always about sacrificing your bad habits or "wants" in order to get the things you really need or to contribute your wealth to your community.

The animals that are sometimes associated with ebo are not the true sacrifice, but are symbolic. They serve a metaphoric purpose, ebo is not just the sacrifice of animals, food etc but of what the animals and this sacrifice object represent. For example, sacrificing a ram to Sango is symbolic of the qualities of the ram that we must embrace (such as perseverance).

therefore the real sacrifice to orisa is only taking place when you sacrifice practical things such as bad habits holding you back or feeding your community. Because it is easier to sacrifice foodstuffs, lazy people push the myth that it is the real sacrifice and not that actual spiritual work that you should be focusing your sacrifice on. so sacrifice given to esu or any orisha is not necessarily for him but for the person or community that offer it

Beside Ajogun do not act on its own, it is human being bad character that besiege ajogun ... it is not olodumare that create evil, evil emanate from human when he violate the concept of nature.... meaning it is human that hurt themselves ....so the evil cause of ajogun is as a result of the effect of human action

vaxx:
Hoping to transcend with judgmental God and non existing devil steal your future

sorry I don't get your reply,just put your answer in simple terms like, "yes their is hell in the Yoruba religion called ......" or 'no their is no hell in the Yoruba religion" or perhaps something else,but let it be clear

vaxx:
Olodumare is not part of human decision, but not necessarily like deistic concept of GOD. he has created a fine environment for us to dwell and survive..... human his bless with her will, self awareness(consciousness) the ability that other creature lacks or has but not enough.... the word evil which denote wickedness, hatred etc is coined by human. for his or her own center notion. i will call it anthropocentric position, the reality is if there is no human,the word evil will not exist... other creature like multitude of plant and animal are living just fine...yes olodumare is omnipotent, he sometime nickname in his oriki as alewilese,( he who speak and do).

Good!

There are several gods in the Yoruba Pantheon? how did these gods come about? were they created by Olodumare straight? were they just humans elevated to gods status by Olodumare or Man?

Also @vaxx
Are Olodumare and Eledumare the same entity?

vaxx:
hello, i understand where you are conming from, but i will do my best to explain some details to you..... the universe is bounded on a balance system..... what you call evil is good to another man, the war that besiege a community that cause calamity has cause prosperous to another community, the famine that besiege a village that cause starvation is a blessing in disguise for another community, in evil, there exist good, and in in good there exist evil..... so every element of universe is base on balance system .... sacrifice given to the orisha which include Esu, eleye, shango and others are symbolical... No orisha eat ebo..... The real sacrifice is always about sacrificing your bad habits or "wants" in order to get the things you really need or to contribute your wealth to your community.

The animals that are sometimes associated with ebo are not the true sacrifice, but are symbolic. They serve a metaphoric purpose, ebo is not just the sacrifice of animals, food etc but of what the animals and this sacrifice object represent. For example, sacrificing a ram to Sango is symbolic of the qualities of the ram that we must embrace (such as perseverance).

therefore the real sacrifice to orisa is only taking place when you sacrifice practical things such as bad habits holding you back or feeding your community. Because it is easier to sacrifice foodstuffs, lazy people push the myth that it is the real sacrifice and not that actual spiritual work that you should be focusing your sacrifice on. so sacrifice given to esu or any orisha is not necessarily for him but for the person or community that offer it

Beside Ajogun do not act on its own, it is human being bad character that besiege ajogun ... it is not olodumare that create evil, evil emanate from human when he violate the concept of nature.... meaning it is human that hurt themselves ....so the evil cause of ajogun is as a result of the effect of human action

There are lot of mix-up here.

1. Human life according to the Yoruba traditional belief is predetermined in Ajule Orun.

2. Ajogun is an evil spirit that offers nothing other than lose and calamities. Ajoguns are the agent of Esu. And the only way to pull them away is through appeasing with Ebo.

3. Member of Ajogun is death, sickness, depression, loses and pain. You haven't explain how any of this emanated from human behaviour.

FOLYKAZE:


There are lot of mix-up here.

1. Human life according to the Yoruba traditional belief is predetermined in Ajule Orun.

2. Ajogun is an evil spirit that offers nothing other than lose and calamities. Ajoguns are the agent of Esu. And the only way to pull them away is through appeasing with Ebo.

3. Member of Ajogun is death, sickness, depression, loses and pain. You haven't explain how any of this emanated from human behaviour.

Excellent question!

There was a question by

CuteMadridista:
Interesting reply

Next question, Christianity has Demons, Satan etc and Islam has Shaytan and some other entities they regard as "Evil" does your religion have evil entities too? if yes can you tell us about them? if no then how does your religion account for the existence of evil in the world?

Could we no refer to Ajoguns members as demons?

vaxx:
Olodumare is not part of human decision, but not necessarily like deistic concept of GOD. he has created a fine environment for us to dwell and survive..... human his bless with her will, self awareness(consciousness) the ability that other creature lacks or has but not enough.... the word evil which denote wickedness, hatred etc is coined by human. for his or her own center notion. i will call it anthropocentric position, the reality is if there is no human,the word evil will not exist... other creature like multitude of plant and animal are living just fine...yes olodumare is omnipotent, he sometime nickname in his oriki as alewilese,( he who speak and do).

Firstly, a deistism is a philosophical position that holds that God (in this case here Eledumare) does not interfare with the world. Thia posit that God is the source of everything and in a perfect condition but there is absenss of divine intervention. This is a fact because no one has ever engage Olódùmarè directly. There is no dedicated shrine or prophet that speaks with him.

Ori is the spark of consciousness and it is integral part of all the entities that exist in the physical world. Ori is not peculiar to only human and that mean that we are not the only conscious entity out there. Maybe what you mean by consciousness is sentience. But the Yoruba people hold that emi (life) and ori (consciousness) is present in every entity that exist. Emi in this case is not biological life but energy. Have you ever wondered there are aboku soro in Yoruba community? Do dead talks? This implies that what we assume dead is only biologically dead but still very much alive as a form of energy.

All the animals you can think about has their owm special Ashe. And this includes the trees and inanimate objects. Therefore, one cannot say that Eledumare is anthropocentric.

Ajoguns who are malevolent agents of Esu can cause one or whole community calamity. This is why Yoruba people appease Esu not to unleash his agent on them with this saying, Èṣù máse mi, ọmọ èlò mi ni ki o se

shadeyinka:

Excellent question!

There was a question by



Could we no refer to Ajoguns members as demons?

Ajogun are demons, malevolent agents.

FOLYKAZE:


Ajogun are demons, malevolent agents.

Of course, but will vaxx agree to that?

@ vaxx

When Christians notice a demonic problem in a person, the demons are never appeased : they are driven out.

Now in (Yoruba) ATR, apart from sacrifices (appeasement) are demons (malevolent spirits) also driven out? and howw if it is done?

shadeyinka:
@ vaxx

When Christians notice a demonic problem in a person, the demons are never appeased : they are driven out.

Now in (Yoruba) ATR, apart from sacrifices (appeasement) are demons (malevolent spirits) also driven out? and howw if it is done?

Very interesting question

darkchild64:


sorry I don't get your reply,just put your answer in simple terms like, "yes their is hell in the Yoruba religion called ......" or 'no their is no hell in the Yoruba religion" or perhaps something else,but let it be clear

bro, i will not spoon feed you, i want you to see beyond what i have written... so critically analysed the statement and get back to me...